Why do MMO's have levels?

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Lox wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

If they didn't, then everyone could do what they want, as in dungeons, pvp, pve...

There could still be skill levels and gear stats...

I don't know why no one has thought of it... or at least no one with a decent budget.

Edit: also it would remove the 'end game' concept.

Its been done already by other games as others have said, Eve Online as another example.

The reality is, what you propose isn't really any different. All the current level system does is provide a means of measuring progression, having 'skill levels' etc is the same thing just presented slightly differently.

That's not all it does, it confines quest to certain area's for a start, It limits players playing with players. It defines where and where you cannot go.

I know it has been done, just never with a large budget, in a fantasy mmorpg. Eve is a great example, only it's not the same sort of game at all. I may as well say a football game doesn't have levels, it is about as relevant, or golf.

Makkir · June 2014

It's a progression scale.

GreySix · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Eve is a great example, only it's not the same sort of game at all.

From all I've read, EvE has an incredibly steep learning curve, and the offensive and defensive capabilities of your ship/fleet take the place of traditional leveling.

SteveCampsOut · June 2014

DAoC's Battlegrounds for PVPing with people your level was a fantastic way of implementing PVP for the masses without having to rush to the level caps! They also allowed you to turn off XP in those battlegrounds so you could stay there as long as you wished. TESO should do something similar to slow down the mad rush to end game!

Dayv · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Eve is a great example, only it's not the same sort of game at all.

From all I've read, EvE has an incredibly steep learning curve, and the offensive and defensive capabilities of your ship/fleet take the place of traditional leveling.

You don't have to learn everything at once to enjoy the game. In fact progress is pretty slow and in real time. If you want to build an empire including securing system to gain resources to manufacture fleets then yeah there's a lot to learn but if you're happy running missions nothing stops you from doing that.

R1ckyDaMan · June 2014

Dayv wrote: »

There may be things that you can say ESO is slavishly copying from WoW, but haven't levels always been in elder scrolls? Classes on the other hand.....

Yes but not in this way, levels in elder scrolls are mostly uselsss, most monsters level with you etc so you can go where you want when you want and the monsters etc will always be your level.

driosketch · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

driosketch wrote: »

Reading through this thread, I see people tossing out examples, and yet I still have no idea what you guys are asking for.

How does an RPG with stats and progression of said stats work without levels? The closest thing I have experience with, (never played the older MMOs), that doesn't have levels is Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. And even that has a progression of difficulty through the different areas of the game. It's a lateral move at best, and I'm not seeing how moving the progression to skills and gear evens out the mob difficulty accoss the zones.

I guess the closest thing would be a FPS, but gun upgrades are a shallow comparison to the range of gear and abilities found in an RPG.

I'm not asking for anything in regards to eso, they have built the game around levels which is fine.

Any game will need progression, no doubt. I just don't understand why it is always done with levels.

How does an RPG with stats and progression of said stats work without levels?

Imagine the skill system of skyrim, using something like skyshards as a way to get the points. Also quest rewards and achievements could grant points.
Each map could have different levels of combat, virtually making it impossible to complete a whole map at one time. This would mix things up and encourage exploration, it would also open possibilities for quests to span more than one area of one map.
If you then added rewards and titles for the quests instead of levels you still have the carrot on a stick reason for doing things. It would mean that friends that are at different stages could still team up and play together.
So long as you have progressed a little you could still enjoy PVP without being cannon fodder.

You basically just described a Legend of Zelda game. Heart containers equal sky shards, needing to travel across maps and return later with new items, ect. (A Link Between Worlds even had a basic 1 on 1 PvP, I think. It might have been an NPC version of the other player.)

Those are still good games, and they might work for an MMO model you're sugesting, but I don't consider those RPGs. So it still doesn't answer how an RPG would work with that model. (I'm one of those players who felt Skyrim dumbed the RPG elements of the Elder Scrolls series too far down.)

Ragekniv · June 2014

Level design is simply an established tier reward system and we are the subscription paying lab rats slapping the bar for another tasty morsel of ego.

The reward system is tethered to a subscription base of revenue that developers love to abuse.

Initial game unit revenue and three months subscription player base revenue means Zenimax has likely satisfied investor return and is content to milk the proverbial teat.

In many MMOs this has led to the attrition of player base due to dissatisfaction and stagnation of progressive game design.

If you want a format devoid of leveling, as said before by others, play a FPS!

Battlefield 4 is an amazing game and outside of unlocking weapons and abilities, you can immediately reap the satisfaction of cordite scented battlefield mayhem.

Whisper292 · June 2014

yarnevk wrote: »

ESO skilling mudcrabs based on a zone is absolutely silly, because you can go to Rift from Stonefalls and get ganked by mudcrabs. Monster levels should be based on type, in that you know a dremora will be a tough fight but mudcrabs are easy once you exceed their level.

Maybe so, but a lvl-40 mudcrab is a great thing when trying to fill a soul gem.

I'm somebody who plays ESO for roleplay and questing purposes. The only interest I have in levelling is to make for more of a challenge as my skills progress. Even with that, sometimes I go back to the preliminary zones and kill stuff just to blow off steam. I haven't achieved VR rank yet, but the concept stresses me out. I don't want to grind; I just want to complete my quests and roleplay my toons. That being said, I do understand levelling and why it appeals to others. A choice between the two would be nice.

Moonscythe · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think players would get bored too quickly if they didn't have something to work towards in an MMO.

The carrot on a stick method works. Biggest example: WoW.

Aye, but a number is not much of a carrot on a stick. I think things like titles, pets and other rewards would work much better.

This would also open up possibilities. Quest's would not 'need' to be completable by everyone. There could be much more variation in difficulty in each zone too, so people may have to come back when they have better gear.

For example you could have a set of quest's that lead up to a big battle with a super troll, which is all but impossible solo. If you complete it in a group you get the title 'Troll Masher', however if you complete it solo you get the title 'Legendary Troll Masher' and a talking donkey pet.

That way you could stroll into town, with your title and talking donkey and everyone would know that you are the don! Much more rewarding than a number...

Titles are okay but pets and trophies and such take up valuable inventory space so then we have to ask that all those sorts of things be treated as quest items or in some way not count towards inventory count and oh, wait, we've already asked for that to happen to no avail as of yet.

Phantorang · June 2014

If you dont like the idea of experience points or level gain in any way, then you should go play The Sims or some other social mmo.

Leveling has always been a part of RPGs, skill leveling, character leveling and craft leveling etc. MMORPGs is a sub-category of this and leveling will forever be a part of it.

Gaining levels is supposed to be an accomplishment, if it isnt, then its not the levels in itself it is something wrong with, but the way it happens.

GreySix · June 2014

Phantorang wrote: »

If you dont like the idea of experience points or level gain in any way, then you should go play The Sims or some other social mmo.

So EvE players are weak-kneed sissy-boys who should be playing The Sims in your eyes?

Interesting. Have you ever lost thousands of dollars in real money after losing an online battle?

Moonscythe · June 2014

I admit, I was hoping for something more like the ES single player world only bigger. Levels never meant anything much to me in those worlds. I stopped leveling in Oblivion as soon as I reached the level to get the best stuff since high level monsters were really bad. In Skyrim I leveled as it happened but didn't worry about it much if I didn't want the perk. I only power leveled one character just to get a legendary dragon so I could say I did. I would really like a more free wheeling system with options that let each player customize their experience though I suppose that would probably put a strain on the servers though if there were dedicated smaller servers some of that could happen.

Phantorang · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Eve is a great example, only it's not the same sort of game at all.

From all I've read, EvE has an incredibly steep learning curve, and the offensive and defensive capabilities of your ship/fleet take the place of traditional leveling.

Tera is an advanced game? I like char customization and specializations. Is it old and is it any fun?

Phantorang · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

If you dont like the idea of experience points or level gain in any way, then you should go play The Sims or some other social mmo.

So EvE players are weak-kneed sissy-boys who should be playing The Sims in your eyes?

Interesting. Have you ever lost thousands of dollars in real money after losing an online battle?

From what I understand, in Eve you build a ship, slowly and surely your ship(s) get more and more powerful guns etc by continously creating and buying new stuff. I would call that the same system as leveling.

GreySix · June 2014

Phantorang wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Phantorang wrote: »

If you dont like the idea of experience points or level gain in any way, then you should go play The Sims or some other social mmo.

So EvE players are weak-kneed sissy-boys who should be playing The Sims in your eyes?

Interesting. Have you ever lost thousands of dollars in real money after losing an online battle?

From what I understand, in Eve you build a ship, slowly and surely your ship(s) get more and more powerful guns etc by continously creating and buying new stuff. I would call that the same system as leveling.

It substitutes for leveling. Could not a similar piece be adopted by a traditional RPG-based MMO like ESO? You could progressively build up better armor and weapons over time (much as ships in EvE), and level wouldn't even be a factor.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Moonscythe wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think players would get bored too quickly if they didn't have something to work towards in an MMO.

The carrot on a stick method works. Biggest example: WoW.

Aye, but a number is not much of a carrot on a stick. I think things like titles, pets and other rewards would work much better.

This would also open up possibilities. Quest's would not 'need' to be completable by everyone. There could be much more variation in difficulty in each zone too, so people may have to come back when they have better gear.

For example you could have a set of quest's that lead up to a big battle with a super troll, which is all but impossible solo. If you complete it in a group you get the title 'Troll Masher', however if you complete it solo you get the title 'Legendary Troll Masher' and a talking donkey pet.

That way you could stroll into town, with your title and talking donkey and everyone would know that you are the don! Much more rewarding than a number...

Titles are okay but pets and trophies and such take up valuable inventory space so then we have to ask that all those sorts of things be treated as quest items or in some way not count towards inventory count and oh, wait, we've already asked for that to happen to no avail as of yet.

In the dumb ass way ESO have applied them I would agree. But pets can be a really nice bonus. Ask anyone that has played wow. It's like Pokemon over there. Not that I'm asking for that.

GreySix · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Moonscythe wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think players would get bored too quickly if they didn't have something to work towards in an MMO.

The carrot on a stick method works. Biggest example: WoW.

Aye, but a number is not much of a carrot on a stick. I think things like titles, pets and other rewards would work much better.

This would also open up possibilities. Quest's would not 'need' to be completable by everyone. There could be much more variation in difficulty in each zone too, so people may have to come back when they have better gear.

For example you could have a set of quest's that lead up to a big battle with a super troll, which is all but impossible solo. If you complete it in a group you get the title 'Troll Masher', however if you complete it solo you get the title 'Legendary Troll Masher' and a talking donkey pet.

That way you could stroll into town, with your title and talking donkey and everyone would know that you are the don! Much more rewarding than a number...

Titles are okay but pets and trophies and such take up valuable inventory space so then we have to ask that all those sorts of things be treated as quest items or in some way not count towards inventory count and oh, wait, we've already asked for that to happen to no avail as of yet.

In the dumb ass way ESO have applied them I would agree. But pets can be a really nice bonus. Ask anyone that has played wow. It's like Pokemon over there. Not that I'm asking for that.

I find pets absolutely useless. Got a bunch of the things in SWTOR, and they did nothing for me. If they could be integrated into the fight, or as a means of detecting the enemy, then perhaps they'd be something other than a waste of pixels.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Moonscythe wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

I think players would get bored too quickly if they didn't have something to work towards in an MMO.

The carrot on a stick method works. Biggest example: WoW.

Aye, but a number is not much of a carrot on a stick. I think things like titles, pets and other rewards would work much better.

This would also open up possibilities. Quest's would not 'need' to be completable by everyone. There could be much more variation in difficulty in each zone too, so people may have to come back when they have better gear.

For example you could have a set of quest's that lead up to a big battle with a super troll, which is all but impossible solo. If you complete it in a group you get the title 'Troll Masher', however if you complete it solo you get the title 'Legendary Troll Masher' and a talking donkey pet.

That way you could stroll into town, with your title and talking donkey and everyone would know that you are the don! Much more rewarding than a number...

Titles are okay but pets and trophies and such take up valuable inventory space so then we have to ask that all those sorts of things be treated as quest items or in some way not count towards inventory count and oh, wait, we've already asked for that to happen to no avail as of yet.

In the dumb ass way ESO have applied them I would agree. But pets can be a really nice bonus. Ask anyone that has played wow. It's like Pokemon over there. Not that I'm asking for that.

I find pets absolutely useless. Got a bunch of the things in SWTOR, and they did nothing for me. If they could be integrated into the fight, or as a means of detecting the enemy, then perhaps they'd be something other than a waste of pixels.

That's your opinion, and I agree that they could be more, but if you had a pet that you could only get by doing a certain quest which is really hard and few people had done you know would use it.

liquid_wolf · June 2014

Levels are the popular thing about MMORPGs.

Every level you gain directly impacts your strength and abilities. It is the easy way by which players can discern if something is going to be a challenge for them or not.

Now lets take out the levels... you have 50 skills instead. Each skill can be improved to 100.

Does having 100 in Heavy Armor, Shields, and Swords mean you can kill a monster? What if you have 50 in those abilities instead?

If I have 50 ranks in all 50 skills, am I just as good as someone who has 100 in 25 of them? Does it qualify me for most dungeons, and what would I be registered as (healer/tank/dps)?

Levels... I hate levels... but I also see how they make it easy for both developers and players. Same with classes. You can put up gates/checks by level and class... but it becomes more difficult when you have to start measuring skills, gear, and abilities equipped.

It also makes it easy to modify/adjust attributes and rewards based on level, instead of whatever rank they chose to get a skill up to.

Personally? I'd prefer it if they simply made content that could only be beaten by people with certain skills and abilities... instead of gating it behind levels and making it universally accessible.

Some bosses and zones might only be done by magic users... but then others would be doable by only melee...

And if you allow people to adjust/change their skills at will... even get max rank in all of them... eventually everyone could do it.

But that is a different style of game, in a different place.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Does having 100 in Heavy Armor, Shields, and Swords mean you can kill a monster? What if you have 50 in those abilities instead?

If I have 50 ranks in all 50 skills, am I just as good as someone who has 100 in 25 of them? Does it qualify me for most dungeons, and what would I be registered as (healer/tank/dps)?

No you would be weaker in my mind, which is exactly the point. You could put every single point into archery and even though you have played for two weeks you could be a valued member of any group because you can reach some targets that no one else can, which may in turn trigger a short cut in the dungeon or a way to extra loot... All hypothetical of course.

GreySix · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Does having 100 in Heavy Armor, Shields, and Swords mean you can kill a monster? What if you have 50 in those abilities instead?

If I have 50 ranks in all 50 skills, am I just as good as someone who has 100 in 25 of them? Does it qualify me for most dungeons, and what would I be registered as (healer/tank/dps)?

No you would be weaker in my mind, which is exactly the point. You could put every single point into archery and even though you have played for two weeks you could be a valued member of any group because you can reach some targets that no one else can, which may in turn trigger a short cut in the dungeon or a way to extra loot... All hypothetical of course.

ESO would have to open everything to grouping then; not "force" grouping, but make grouping available.

kieso · June 2014

Asherons Call had skill levels if I remember right but then again it also had overall levels

ShadowWolf613 · June 2014

skyforge... is suppose to have no levels.

Leveling has been in most major MMO's. Most of them have been said so im not going to name them. Elder scrolls games always had level. Although in oblivion and skyrim the levels didn't mean much cause most monsters scaled to your level.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

liquid_wolf wrote: »

Does having 100 in Heavy Armor, Shields, and Swords mean you can kill a monster? What if you have 50 in those abilities instead?

If I have 50 ranks in all 50 skills, am I just as good as someone who has 100 in 25 of them? Does it qualify me for most dungeons, and what would I be registered as (healer/tank/dps)?

No you would be weaker in my mind, which is exactly the point. You could put every single point into archery and even though you have played for two weeks you could be a valued member of any group because you can reach some targets that no one else can, which may in turn trigger a short cut in the dungeon or a way to extra loot... All hypothetical of course.

ESO would have to open everything to grouping then; not "force" grouping, but make grouping available.

Eso could never do this now. They may as well build a new game if they were to even try. It just surprises me that all mmorpg's stick to levels when they are so limiting in game play.

All but a few, it would seem and judgeing from the replies in this thread those that don't have levels have been well liked games. EVE, Ultima Online, Secret World.

You will probably find some time in the future that a game will come, that has no levels and blow everything away, much like wow did. Then no games will have them and some *** will be sat asking why no games have levels... I'll get my coat.

Zubba · June 2014

GreySix wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Eve is a great example, only it's not the same sort of game at all.

From all I've read, EvE has an incredibly steep learning curve, and the offensive and defensive capabilities of your ship/fleet take the place of traditional leveling.

I played Eve for a long time. I started PvP from day 7. And continued doing so for 5 years. ONLY PVP. It gave me that freedom. Part of it because of no player levels. No grind, no questing, no mining, no crafting. Only PvP. I lived on the spoils of other players. And I cant remember one of them complaining. Most of them said Good fight.

GreySix · June 2014

From a pretty interesting write-up:

When The A.V. Club reviewed Skyrim back in 2011, it wrote, "Where many games with lavish production values seek to direct players' imaginations, Skyrim seeks to ignite them."

I’m sorry to report that at almost every opportunity, The Elder Scrolls Online violates that principle. There are plenty of examples, but one really stands out: the game world is rigidly segmented.

All of The Elder Scrolls Online’s content is divided by level, so if you try to move on beyond the path the developers have laid down for you, and you'll quickly be killed. You must level up your character to proceed, and doing that necessitates sticking to a very clearly defined route through the world. It's their imagination, not yours, and they won’t let you forget it.

Gone is the sense of exploration and freedom. Gone is the ability to wander to whatever corner of the world you want to tell your story. It’s bewildering to see that ZeniMax missed that mark so completely, especially given that there have been many MMOs over the years that were actually more like Skyrim or Oblivion than this one.

Why did ZeniMax draw inspiration from World of Warcraft– a game whose highly directed experience is counter to the emergent freedom of The Elder Scrolls – rather than Ultima Online, EVE Online, Meridian 59 and others that are more spiritually similar to what franchise fans know and love?

Crisscross · June 2014

I have been asking this question ever since GW2. In all honesty, levels are just an antiquated and irrelevant system that are only still around because the tradition has been rooted so deeply that people fool themselves into thinking that it provides them with fun.

They are not a method to convey progression, all they are is a content gate. They aren't much different from WoW's long ass flight paths. They distract you with pretty scenery and 'the feeling of progression', when in reality all they're doing is padding your game time and giving you the minimum value for your subscription fee.

Levels lock you out of zones. Levels lock you out of dungeons and PVP. Levels prevent you from questing with friends. Levels even prevent you from wearing pretty armor. There's simply no reason for their existence. Just think about how many systems games have employed specifically to CIRCUMVENT levels; the sidekick system in CoH to allow lowbie players to quest with their high level friends, downlevelling in GW2 to allow the reverse, level brackets or upscaling for PVP in a myriad of games, item appearance transmutation to allow you to continue looking the same even after you've outlevelled the item... All levels have ever been is a hindrance.

They had a purpose long ago, when RPGs were mainly played with paper and dice, or as single player dungeon crawlers. MMOs, however, are a different beast entirely. I'm just glad other people are starting to realize this, and really hoping EQN doesn't flop so that perhaps future MMOs will follow suit and do away with the system entirely.

Crisscross · June 2014

...whoops double post

yarnevk · June 2014

I think people are confusing game levels with map zones, because you can have open world maps without level restrictions. Single player Elder Scrolls games have always been open world with only a few main quest dungeons locked out. There where no zones restricted to level, though there might have been a dungeon that was tough or a mob you should avoid.

Skyrim brought autolevel to mobs, keeping expected types easier/harder than your level so mudcrabs/dremora was expected fights. It gave more exploration freedom than Morrowind, no mobs acting as gatekeepers.

If ESO had that you could go to Craglorn as a noob, and be challenged but miss the main story as you are not there yet, while still not have it easy at lvl50 when you go back for the post main quest story. It causes a programming challenge in grouping and phasing, Defiance did a decent job of doing that. ESO already has autolevelling code because that is how they quickly created VR before Craglorn, levelling the other factions zones. The quest lines do not need levels to trigger, yet they can still be a linear story that you have to complete.

I think the issue I have with ESO compared to prior Elder Scrolls is not so much game vs. skill levels, but zoned vs. open map. I pretty much have to follow the trail planned out for me.