Why do MMO's have levels?

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Content is constantly out leveled making it useless. Friends don't always play at the same time so level differences always pose an issue.

I never even considered that, it's a very good point. Who has 'not' wanted to run through and old raid and been unable to find a group?

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

It's been done, people complained. They said they didn't like grinding solely for gear, which you then replace when you get the next peice. Also if they include gear bonuses, mixing gear produced weird bugs, which people complained about.

Can you give me an example of a high budget game that has done this, that is also a fantasy based mmo?
People will complain no matter, but so long as you have balance, interesting stories, well designed dungeons and fun PVP I think you have all you need for a successful mmo.
Obviously you need to reward players for achievement, but I think titles, pets and bragging rights is much more interesting than levels.

I can't remember, but there was an MMO designed like that, everything was earned in game, gear had stats, you used abilities to get stronger versions. But I can't remember the name, or how well funded it was. It was fantasy though, and about eight-ten years ago. It didn't last long, not sure if that was because people hated it, or WoW or something killed it.

I just remember reading the review, which come to think about it would have been biased.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

It's been done, people complained. They said they didn't like grinding solely for gear, which you then replace when you get the next peice. Also if they include gear bonuses, mixing gear produced weird bugs, which people complained about.

Can you give me an example of a high budget game that has done this, that is also a fantasy based mmo?
People will complain no matter, but so long as you have balance, interesting stories, well designed dungeons and fun PVP I think you have all you need for a successful mmo.
Obviously you need to reward players for achievement, but I think titles, pets and bragging rights is much more interesting than levels.

I can't remember, but there was an MMO designed like that, everything was earned in game, gear had stats, you used abilities to get stronger versions. But I can't remember the name, or how well funded it was. It was fantasy though, and about eight-ten years ago. It didn't last long, not sure if that was because people hated it, or WoW or something killed it.

I just remember reading the review, which come to think about it would have been biased.

One of the sad truths is that most mmo's are still following that wow set up.
What's the betting it will be blizzard that changes things? Then everyone will be, oh... that's how we could have done it...

To be fair, when it comes to games what has been is gone for me. I would love to be able to go back and enjoy games like Ultima online and what not but they make my eyes bleed with the graphics and clumsiness. Games have come forward a lot in the last 15 years in so many ways, just not so much in gameplay.

Ralph_Damiani · June 2014

You can still have levels if you don't design your world around them. Areas could have creatures and NPCs of all levels, the farther you get from safe towns and cities and into the wilderness, the more dangerous it gets. Your whole world doesn't have to become empty and redundant as more people get to veteran content.

Leesha · June 2014

The Secret World does not have levels, only skill ranks. You choose what you want to spend your ability and skill points on.

Vendersleigh · June 2014

Personally I hate levels and would love a good company to employ Raph Koster to make a low-ish fantasy MMORPG.
But I know that is wishful thinking and that many people now have been carrot-ised by WoW, EQ and other games, finding enjoyment only if they are "progressing".

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Ralph_Damiani wrote: »

You can still have levels if you don't design your world around them. Areas could have creatures and NPCs of all levels, the farther you get from safe towns and cities and into the wilderness, the more dangerous it gets. Your whole world doesn't have to become empty and redundant as more people get to veteran content.

Which would be really nice, but wouldn't make it any easier for low level PVP. Although level brackets in PVP works just as well.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Vendersleigh wrote: »

Personally I hate levels and would love a good company to employ Raph Koster to make a low-ish fantasy MMORPG.
But I know that is wishful thinking and that many people now have been carrot-ised by WoW, EQ and other games, finding enjoyment only if they are "progressing".

He certainly has pedigree to do so.

I'm not really against the carrot on a stick system. I just don't see why it should be down to time spent rather than skill.

Like for example, you could have a time trial, where the idea is the quicker you do it the better the reward. There are so many creative idea's that could be used in a non level based game.

GreySix · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Vendersleigh wrote: »

Original SWG did not have levels and was great, until they tried to balance the skills for PvP, which they could not do so they redid the combat system (Combat Upgrade aka the dreaded CU) which failed and then led to the NGE (New Game Experience).

Sadly I missed out on SWG, I did play the demo but at the time the concept of killing 10 of everything was then alien to me so l didn't bother... bad decision really.

Yeah, me too. Saw it in the store and said to my wife, "Oh hell yeah! Now I can finally command my own Imperial Star Destroyer!"

But then real life got in the way, and I didn't get the game.

Phantorang · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

If they didn't, then everyone could do what they want, as in dungeons, pvp, pve...

There could still be skill levels and gear stats...

I don't know why no one has thought of it... or at least no one with a decent budget.

Edit: also it would remove the 'end game' concept.

Try TSW, its no levels and is one of the best PvE games ever, now its ready with a new content addition. Sure it lacks in crafting and PvP, but the quests and story are just awesome. If you dont like that, and want endgame fast, its also possible, but the story and the extremely varied quests that actually requires a brain to solve are best ever in any MMO

But of course you do get XP, you use them to buy new abilities, skills and learn new weapons, which is quite logical

isengrimb16_ESO · June 2014

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Dayv wrote: »

Eve online doesn't have levels. Your skill levels, cash and reputation determine what open to you. Levels and class all hark back to the original pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons.

Original Dungeons and Dragons had levels but it didn't hinder the game. A session of D&D everybody shows up and plays together. You rarely ever out level our friends and cant play together and when I say rarely I mean it just doesn't happen.

In D&D regardless of your level the game is tailored to your specific group.

The leveling doesn't hinder the game, it hinders MMOs at every step and turn.

Content is constantly out leveled making it useless. Friends don't always play at the same time so level differences always pose an issue.

Leveling also creates more work for developers as well. Gotta get everything right for EVERY level. Each individual level needs to be looked at as well as the content.

A level less game wouldn't have this problem as everything is working on a baseline that never changes.

Also, there's a brain behind the world and NPCs in tabletop games; one that can switch things up on a dime if it has to (because the players totally went off on some tangent, but you, the GM, does not want them to know that they did.)

Computer programmes can't do that so easily; at least, not for thousands of people at the same time, all doing different things with skill levels all over the place. Computers are really nothing more than glorified calculators; they need numbers to crunch. Levels are just the simplest way to handle those numbers, just as they seemed the obvious solution for turning war-simulation miniature games into what we know as "RPGs".

I think ESO is about as complicated, programming-wise, (phasing, etc) as they dared make it be at the beginning - and even so, there are still many technological problems to sort out, aren't there?

That being said, the RPG I used to run had all of 5 (maybe 6 if you wanted to stretch it) "levels", disguised as very-hard-to-achieve social ranks that involved building up reputation levels (Glory, Honour, and Wisdom) that could be easily lost.

*How does this Secret World work? It's not "poke your weak little nose out of a city and get your face smashed by a heavy-armour clad dinosaur" is it? When I go into a _computer_ game, I want to be sure I have at least a chance to get by; so many computer games were so unfair to a starting character, it was sick.

Svann · June 2014

Levels mean exponential progression.
No levels means linear progression.

Dayv · June 2014

There may be things that you can say ESO is slavishly copying from WoW, but haven't levels always been in elder scrolls? Classes on the other hand.....

schroed360 · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

I really don't, I enjoy FPS games a lot, but what I want is a game like eso, but where I am really free to do what I want from the start. It's what I expected from a TES game, not so much no levels but freedom.
Most of what I want is to PVP, but I do like to mix it up a little. Why is it that in all MMO's I need to complete the game before I can really enjoy the PVP?

You are right, but kind of backwards. I've never played Bioshock so couldn't comment, but I'd like to take the combat from ESO to a FPS game. That would be awesome.

You should look for the"the division" on you tube ....

Tannakaobi · June 2014

adamrussell52_ESO wrote: »

Levels mean exponential progression.
No levels means linear progression.

Quite the opposite in fact. Levels will always mean that you must do this to do this to do this, forever in one direction. (linear)
No levels would allow you to do anything, to wander in any direction and see what come up. Don't like a map? No worries, go to next. Progression is an illusion. It could be done in a number of different ways.

Amsel_McKay · June 2014

Venithar wrote: »

Ultima Online started with no levels (no idea if it still has no levels) and it was great, the only thing you had to worry about was what skills you wanted to level. EQ had levels and pretty much everyone rushed to level cap and began the whole "I'm at max level, what now" whining that still plagues MMOs today.

You could not "rush" to max level in EQ... until later when people thought that "max level" was where all the fun is at...

HINT: Like ESO the fun is NOT at max level its in the 1-50 part...

GreySix · June 2014

I do like the idea of no leveling, in that it minimizes the whole, "I maxed my level, so now what?" complaints.

Zubba · June 2014

Eve Online don't have player levels. Only skill lines you train over time, even if you are offline. It's a way better system than player levels.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

schroed360 wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

theyancey wrote: »

You don't want an RPG. You want a shooter. You want Bioshock in Tamriel. Fortunately this will NEVER be the case with ES games.

I really don't, I enjoy FPS games a lot, but what I want is a game like eso, but where I am really free to do what I want from the start. It's what I expected from a TES game, not so much no levels but freedom.
Most of what I want is to PVP, but I do like to mix it up a little. Why is it that in all MMO's I need to complete the game before I can really enjoy the PVP?

You are right, but kind of backwards. I've never played Bioshock so couldn't comment, but I'd like to take the combat from ESO to a FPS game. That would be awesome.

You should look for the"the division" on you tube ....

Looks good, will be keeping my eye on that. Cheers. I still play my Rainbow Six: Vegas from time to time.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

Amsel_McKay wrote: »

ntil later when people thought that "max level" was where all the fun is at...

HINT: Like ESO the fun is NOT at max level its in the 1-50 part...

This is down to the individual. If your thing is PVP at the highest level then all the fun is certainly not 1-50.

But this takes me back to my original question, why have levels in mmo's? It is very evident that different people enjoy different things. Levels only limit what you can provide people.

illogicbh · June 2014

If you dont have levels you just end up with a game similar to Second Life. Which as far as I know is a hotspot for the urchens of the gaming world.

Zubba · June 2014

illogicbh wrote: »

If you dont have levels you just end up with a game similar to Second Life. Which as far as I know is a hotspot for the urchens of the gaming world.

Please have a look at Eve Online. Hard core pvp sandbox without player levels.

AlexDougherty · June 2014

Dayv wrote: »

There may be things that you can say ESO is slavishly copying from WoW, but haven't levels always been in elder scrolls? Classes on the other hand.....

No, they had classes in Oblivion, your class skills were the ones that caused you to level up, which is why I always created a custom class with acrobatics, athletics (the one which levelled up by running) unarmed and archery as class skills (I didn't touch archery until Skyrim). That way I could stay low long enough to finish the main quest (which killed you if you got too high).

Anyway, back to the point, Classes existed in Oblivion, they just didn't bind you.

driosketch · June 2014

Reading through this thread, I see people tossing out examples, and yet I still have no idea what you guys are asking for.

How does an RPG with stats and progression of said stats work without levels? The closest thing I have experience with, (never played the older MMOs), that doesn't have levels is Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. And even that has a progression of difficulty through the different areas of the game. It's a lateral move at best, and I'm not seeing how moving the progression to skills and gear evens out the mob difficulty accoss the zones.

I guess the closest thing would be a FPS, but gun upgrades are a shallow comparison to the range of gear and abilities found in an RPG.

illogicbh · June 2014

Is Star Citizen going to have levels?

Zubba · June 2014

Skill lines/Skill trees.

You would need a specific skill to use a specific type of weapon. Then advancing that skill tree for specialization and at the end perfection.

Then a skill tree for armour type, new one for speed, new one for rest of attributes, the list goes on. But also what you wear/use have its strengths ans weakness. As an example Heavy armour makes you slow, but more survivability in armour. Theres millions of options.

Then if you wish you can have skills for enchants, making each enchant behave different. You can even have skill trees making skills train faster. Theres room for a book on the subject, but I aint much fro Writing so use your imagination please.

In the end this makes for pvp being more easy on the new guys. As well as making it easier for the developers to make so there is no MAX levels or MAX skills. You just add more skills and skill lines, to the new weapons and armous and classes.

Altan · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

If they didn't, then everyone could do what they want, as in dungeons, pvp, pve...

There could still be skill levels and gear stats...

I don't know why no one has thought of it... or at least no one with a decent budget.

Edit: also it would remove the 'end game' concept.

Ultima Online didn't have levels, and character development and customization was fantastic. I long for that kind of character evolution again.

driosketch · June 2014

Zubba wrote: »

Skill lines/Skill trees.

You would need a specific skill to use a specific type of weapon. Then advancing that skill tree for specialization and at the end perfection.

Then a skill tree for armour type, new one for speed, new one for rest of attributes, the list goes on. But also what you wear/use have its strengths ans weakness. As an example Heavy armour makes you slow, but more survivability in armour. Theres millions of options.

Then if you wish you can have skills for enchants, making each enchant behave different. You can even have skill trees making skills train faster. Theres room for a book on the subject, but I aint much fro Writing so use your imagination please.

In the end this makes for pvp being more easy on the new guys. As well as making it easier for the developers to make so there is no MAX levels or MAX skills. You just add more skills and skill lines, to the new weapons and armous and classes.

So... like modifying your car in a racing game? Only the car is your character.

Lox · June 2014

Tannakaobi wrote: »

If they didn't, then everyone could do what they want, as in dungeons, pvp, pve...

There could still be skill levels and gear stats...

I don't know why no one has thought of it... or at least no one with a decent budget.

Edit: also it would remove the 'end game' concept.

Its been done already by other games as others have said, Eve Online as another example.

The reality is, what you propose isn't really any different. All the current level system does is provide a means of measuring progression, having 'skill levels' etc is the same thing just presented slightly differently.

Tannakaobi · June 2014

driosketch wrote: »

Reading through this thread, I see people tossing out examples, and yet I still have no idea what you guys are asking for.

How does an RPG with stats and progression of said stats work without levels? The closest thing I have experience with, (never played the older MMOs), that doesn't have levels is Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past. And even that has a progression of difficulty through the different areas of the game. It's a lateral move at best, and I'm not seeing how moving the progression to skills and gear evens out the mob difficulty accoss the zones.

I guess the closest thing would be a FPS, but gun upgrades are a shallow comparison to the range of gear and abilities found in an RPG.

I'm not asking for anything in regards to eso, they have built the game around levels which is fine.

Any game will need progression, no doubt. I just don't understand why it is always done with levels.

How does an RPG with stats and progression of said stats work without levels?

Imagine the skill system of skyrim, using something like skyshards as a way to get the points. Also quest rewards and achievements could grant points.
Each map could have different levels of combat, virtually making it impossible to complete a whole map at one time. This would mix things up and encourage exploration, it would also open possibilities for quests to span more than one area of one map.
If you then added rewards and titles for the quests instead of levels you still have the carrot on a stick reason for doing things. It would mean that friends that are at different stages could still team up and play together.
So long as you have progressed a little you could still enjoy PVP without being cannon fodder.