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Gap closer needs nerf now gap extender is nerfed
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crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭HelpingHand wrote: »right, sorc is not ranged, and temp/NB/DK is not melee. Your statement gets more and more fascinating.
You can build a melee Sorc. I have one. Dual wield.
except you don't represent the whole sorc population, sure individual skill config varies, but by a large..... need I say more?0 -
joshisanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Considering I've seen sorcerers use BE 7-8 times in a row pretty regularly before the change, I'm gonna go ahead and do some math to see how that works out now.
Lets assume that before you could use it 8 times, nearly at will it seems.
Now, the 1st is the same cost. We're left with each additional cast costing 1.5x what it used to cost. Divide the 7 casts that were available before by 1.5 to get the number of casts available now and you end up with 4.6. So let's round down in your favor.
Where you could previously cast BE 8 times in a row, you can now cast it 5 times in a row. 15m for each cast means you're creating 75m of distance in a matter of seconds between you and your enemy/enemies. That's far greater than the range of anything they can throw at you.
But how does this work in the game if those enemies can spam gap closers that have longer range and require fewer resources? About the same as before I'd imagine. The key point here is that gap closers need targets. It doesn't matter that you have to cast BE twice to get completely out of range of their gap closer, costing you more resources, because these skills are not equal in how they function. Once you are out of range of their gap closer, they literally no long have anything they can close that gap with. It's great that they would be able to spam chains 8 times in a row but you're not actually close enough to them for that ability to be used at all. Not to mention, you are immune to chain pulls after getting hit by just one of them. So even if you somehow stay within range because you forgot how to press the same button twice in a row for your BE, they still literally can't close that gap with another chain.
Absolute worst case scenario when your enemy is using a chain as a gap closer: he starts directly on top of you, you BE once, he lands a chain and you're on top of him again, you BE again, his chain misses, you BE again, he literally has nothing that will close the gap at this point. So after only 3 of your 5 possible nerfed BEs, you get away.
The situation isn't much different if they're using a charge instead. The difference now is that you have to actually confuse them or use a 2nd CC, like maybe the insta-root that you have, to confuse their targetting. As long as they mess up their targetting enough that you manage to get off 2 BEs in a row, then you're completely in the clear. You may lose this battle if you're unable to throw off their reaction time, but that's what we call balance.Edited by joshisanonymous on June 10, 2014 2:21AM3 -
dcincali✭✭✭✭As someone in my guild said today and he is a sorc, "I'm glad it got a nerf, its an escape not a travel across the country skill".0 -
HelpingHand✭✭✭except you don't represent the whole sorc population, sure individual skill config varies, but by a large..... need I say more?
You are focusing on it all wrong. My statement, which you confirmed in your statement, proves your theory is wrong. Period. Time to make a build that isn't based around Bolt Escape if you are so displeased with it. Most of the Sorcs I know and play with AND against, don't even point into BE. Need I say more?Edited by HelpingHand on June 10, 2014 2:22AM0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭HelpingHand wrote: »except you don't represent the whole sorc population, sure individual skill config varies, but by a large..... need I say more?
You are focusing on it all wrong. My statement, which you confirmed in your statement, proves your theory is wrong. Period. Time to make a build that isn't based around Bolt Escape if you are so displeased with it. Most of the Sorcs I know and play with AND against, don't even point into BE. Need I say more?
say more please, you build a melee sorc and bam, all sorc in this game should go melee? why is that?As someone in my guild said today and he is a sorc, "I'm glad it got a nerf, its an escape not a travel across the country skill".
Jee, I have NB and DK friends think they need nerf too, am I suppose to by convince by an unknown individual?0 -
NakedSnake✭✭✭It should be balance, right? Bolt escape has a travel distance of 15 meters.
DK's chain reaches 22 meters and cost the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out of range fast, and two BE in a roll now cost (base)1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
NB's teleport strike also reaches 22 meters, cost about the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Edit, as suggested:
Templar's Focused Charge and it's morphs also reaches 22 meters, cost even less than bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Silver Leash (morph of Silver Bolt of Fighters Guild) reaches 28 meters!, doesn't even cost magicka, a sorc definitely need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Either these need out right higher cost (to 1000 base magicka or stamina, just as two BE in a roll would cost a sorc), or their ranges need to be shortened to 10 meters.
I can definitively say this is a L2P issue.
As a caster you should be at 28m range during combat. You have knock downs, knockbacks and CC's that allow you to kite. If you are playing your Sorc correctly you will be able to bolt escape to at least 43m away from your opponent at any given time."Brilliant! Why is it that the people with the most ridiculous ideas are always the ones who are most certain of them?"2 -
dcincali✭✭✭✭HelpingHand wrote: »except you don't represent the whole sorc population, sure individual skill config varies, but by a large..... need I say more?
You are focusing on it all wrong. My statement, which you confirmed in your statement, proves your theory is wrong. Period. Time to make a build that isn't based around Bolt Escape if you are so displeased with it. Most of the Sorcs I know and play with AND against, don't even point into BE. Need I say more?
^^ This...
The good players who run with other good players don't need BE. It's proven on the field in battle. The ONLY reason one of my guildies has to BE is to chase down that one sorc who cant pvp. Like that EP Emp sorc whats her name on Wabbajack... Dies all the time..
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HelpingHand✭✭✭say more please, you build a melee sorc and bam, all sorc in this game should go melee? why is that?
I never said they should go melee. There you go, putting words in my mouth. I see you are good at that. I said not all Sorcs are ranged. I said if you are unhappy with BE, make a different build.1 -
joshisanonymous✭✭✭✭✭Yeah, they need to "fix" Dark Cloak too - this is not intended! Damn, they able to use it 5-7 times per row and sitting in stealth for 20 sec!
With vampire last passive they able to run from on keep to another in stealth!
Not intended!
Fix it ASAP!
I hope you're joking. Counters to Dark Cloak: Piercing Target (NB skill), Mage Light, any AoE damage, having 5 DoTs active on the NB (1 if the NB is using the Shadowy Disguise morph), and 24m range invisibility detection potions. Counters to BE as it was: ... I could never figure out anything. Hope that combat drops fast enough that you can cast maneuvers and hop on your 75% speed horse before the sorcerer presses the CTRL key maybe?? Hope that the sorcerer simply depleted all of their magicka already and doesn't slot Dark Exchange?? Hope that you have teammates hiding somewhere in the direction that the sorcerer is heading??0 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Ok fine they can all be the same length. Wait no that won't work. 22 meters reaches 22 meters. BE needs to be 23. Crap that won't work, now it is a free get away, make them all 23. Crap that won't work, make BE 24. Crap now it is a free get away, make them all 24.... Well *** this ain't working.
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crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Insightful for sure, thanks for taking time to think and write these.joshisanonymous wrote: »Considering I've seen sorcerers use BE 7-8 times in a row pretty regularly before the change, I'm gonna go ahead and do some math to see how that works out now.
Lets assume that before you could use it 8 times, nearly at will it seems.
Now, the 1st is the same cost. We're left with each additional cast costing 1.5x what it used to cost. Divide the 7 casts that were available before by 1.5 to get the number of casts available now and you end up with 4.6. So let's round down in your favor.
Where you could previously cast BE 8 times in a row, you can now cast it 5 times in a row. 15m for each cast means you're creating 75m of distance in a matter of seconds between you and your enemy/enemies. That's far greater than the range of anything they can throw at you.
But how does this work in the game if those enemies can spam gap closers that have longer range and require fewer resources? About the same as before I'd imagine. The key point here is that gap closers need targets. It doesn't matter that you have to cast BE twice to get completely out of range of their gap closer, costing you more resources, because these skills are not equal in how they function. Once you are out of range of their gap closer, they literally no long have anything they can close that gap with. It's great that they would be able to spam chains 8 times in a row but you're not actually close enough to them for that ability to be used at all. Not to mention, you are immune to chain pulls after getting hit by just one of them. So even if you somehow stay within range because you forgot how to press the same button twice in a row for your BE, they still literally can't close that gap with another chain.
Absolute worst case scenario when your enemy is using a chain as a gap closer: he starts directly on top of you, you BE once, he lands a chain and you're on top of him again, you BE again, his chain misses, you BE again, he literally has nothing that will close the gap at this point. So after only 3 of your 5 possible nerfed BEs, you get away.
The situation isn't much different if they're using a charge instead. The difference now is that you have to actually confuse them or use a 2nd CC, like maybe the insta-root that you have, to confuse their targetting. As long as they mess up their targetting enough that you manage to get off 2 BEs in a row, then you're completely in the clear. You may lose this battle if you're unable to throw off their reaction time, but that's what we call balance.
For 1 v1 and when I get sneaked upon, your theory probably works.
In a battle, where I have to participate, am I able to reserve 1/3 to 1/2 of my magicka to use two BE in a roll? 3 in a roll is simply impossible, and how can I be sure I am out of EVERYBODY's range, since every other class can close on me?
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crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭HelpingHand wrote: »say more please, you build a melee sorc and bam, all sorc in this game should go melee? why is that?
I never said they should go melee. There you go, putting words in my mouth. I see you are good at that. I said not all Sorcs are ranged. I said if you are unhappy with BE, make a different build.
and I say majority of sorc are ranged, you have a problem with that statement?0 -
hamon✭✭✭✭✭
✭the only diffrence for sorcs now if instead of unloading 80% of their magika in damage at you before they decide if they need to try to escape should the fight be going bad or help arrives for you..
they might have to make that decision at about 70% mana ... and thats all they are crying about.. yes that means leaving fights before they used to or risk dying .. but to me its fairer... being able to unload 80% of your resources trying to kill me while maintaining the ability to zip off should you fail is pretty lame imo...
sp yes pvp just got a bit more risky as a sorc... but i think its in line with the amount of risk everyone else has had since day 1Edited by hamon on June 10, 2014 2:34AM1 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭HelpingHand wrote: »except you don't represent the whole sorc population, sure individual skill config varies, but by a large..... need I say more?
You are focusing on it all wrong. My statement, which you confirmed in your statement, proves your theory is wrong. Period. Time to make a build that isn't based around Bolt Escape if you are so displeased with it. Most of the Sorcs I know and play with AND against, don't even point into BE. Need I say more?
^^ This...
The good players who run with other good players don't need BE. It's proven on the field in battle. The ONLY reason one of my guildies has to BE is to chase down that one sorc who cant pvp. Like that EP Emp sorc whats her name on Wabbajack... Dies all the time..
right, good players don't need this or that, classic response for any thing. Good player don't play DK, and why is there so many DKs?
because you CAN'T demand only game maestros play this game, or can you?0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »Ok fine they can all be the same length. Wait no that won't work. 22 meters reaches 22 meters. BE needs to be 23. Crap that won't work, now it is a free get away, make them all 23. Crap that won't work, make BE 24. Crap now it is a free get away, make them all 24.... Well *** this ain't working.
i believe most of us are fine with exactly the same range, so you don't need to fake worry about things.0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭HelpingHand wrote: »
which part of the numbers and data in the OP don't you understand?0 -
crislevin✭✭✭✭✭
✭HelpingHand wrote: »
LOL, of course good player play everything, thats so amusing you claim somehow good player doesn't pick "certain skills" because they are "easy mode or something".
get your brain around yet
? Edited by crislevin on June 10, 2014 2:39AM0 -
vyndral13preub18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »Ok fine they can all be the same length. Wait no that won't work. 22 meters reaches 22 meters. BE needs to be 23. Crap that won't work, now it is a free get away, make them all 23. Crap that won't work, make BE 24. Crap now it is a free get away, make them all 24.... Well *** this ain't working.
i believe most of us are fine with exactly the same range, so you don't need to fake worry about things.
As soon as teleport strike looses its cast time and it's target requirement I'll start trying to fake care better.0 -
glitchmaster999✭✭✭✭It should be balance, right? Bolt escape has a travel distance of 15 meters.
DK's chain reaches 22 meters and cost the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out of range fast, and two BE in a roll now cost (base)1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
NB's teleport strike also reaches 22 meters, cost about the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Edit, as suggested:
Templar's Focused Charge and it's morphs also reaches 22 meters, cost even less than bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Silver Leash (morph of Silver Bolt of Fighters Guild) reaches 28 meters!, doesn't even cost magicka, a sorc definitely need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Either these need out right higher cost (to 1000 base magicka or stamina, just as two BE in a roll would cost a sorc), or their ranges need to be shortened to 10 meters.
Yes because that isn't the exact reason that they nerfed it in the first place -.- you shouldn't be able to just get out of anything with the push of a button.... gap closers should cost less because you can't gap close out of a fight, once you are in, you are in.... bolt escape is an escape so if you are using it as an escape you can get it off four times before you are oom, enough to get out of most things.1 -
LariahHunding✭✭✭✭BS Thread is, well, bs."Give a man a sweet roll, he only has one to steal. Give him a sweet roll recipe, he have bunches to steal."
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sagitter✭✭✭✭✭If casters were interrupted by melee attacks like Daoc, than BE would have a reason to exist, but here where sorcerer can wear heavy armor use weapons in melee and casts high dps in melee and be the unique class to have an escape for any situation , even if u are CCed like roots or immobilize it's just pathetic. Anyway with the nerf you are still be able to escape most of situation or pvp if you are magcika build but not be able to BE forever and troll around.Edited by sagitter on June 10, 2014 2:56AM0 -
Yasha✭✭✭✭✭
right, sorc is not ranged, and temp/NB/DK is not melee. Your statement gets more and more fascinating.So how does the Templar/NB/DK escape from those gap closers?
BE is still one of the most powerful abilities in the game and lets sorcerers do something that no other class can do- teleport with no target.
It is also an instant cast stun that again requires no target.
It just sounds like people have built themselves around the near invincible BE skill and haven't really had to think how to fight like every other class does.
Wait, are you saying melee classes don't know how to melee? and ranged class should stick around and melee? fascinating.
Where did I say "melee class" and why do you imply sorc is ranged?
You are just proving my point that you have not really thought deeply about how things work in this game because you have relied on a very OP skill to do all the lifting for you.
Wow, do you even play this game?
Either you are trolling or you just honestly don't know how to play ESO.0 -
bg22✭✭✭✭✭
✭Must be balanced?
Yea... You're right.
That's why it just got the nerfaderp.
Enjoy!
And, you're welcome.0 -
Eivar✭✭✭✭It should be balance, right? Bolt escape has a travel distance of 15 meters.
DK's chain reaches 22 meters and cost the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out of range fast, and two BE in a roll now cost (base)1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
NB's teleport strike also reaches 22 meters, cost about the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Edit, as suggested:
Templar's Focused Charge and it's morphs also reaches 22 meters, cost even less than bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Silver Leash (morph of Silver Bolt of Fighters Guild) reaches 28 meters!, doesn't even cost magicka, a sorc definitely need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Either these need out right higher cost (to 1000 base magicka or stamina, just as two BE in a roll would cost a sorc), or their ranges need to be shortened to 10 meters.
I'm gonna have to say nope, all of those require a target and aren't usuable in the same way bolt escape is. Make use of the stun, change direction to block LOS, etc etc. Just need to play smarter now instead of just spamming one button while you eat a sammich.0 -
dcincali✭✭✭✭HelpingHand wrote: »except you don't represent the whole sorc population, sure individual skill config varies, but by a large..... need I say more?
You are focusing on it all wrong. My statement, which you confirmed in your statement, proves your theory is wrong. Period. Time to make a build that isn't based around Bolt Escape if you are so displeased with it. Most of the Sorcs I know and play with AND against, don't even point into BE. Need I say more?
^^ This...
The good players who run with other good players don't need BE. It's proven on the field in battle. The ONLY reason one of my guildies has to BE is to chase down that one sorc who cant pvp. Like that EP Emp sorc whats her name on Wabbajack... Dies all the time..
right, good players don't need this or that, classic response for any thing. Good player don't play DK, and why is there so many DKs?
because you CAN'T demand only game maestros play this game, or can you?
Actually good players do play dk cause there are alot of bad players like the OP who stand around in AOES all day then cry they can't escape.. PVP is group based, if you don't get that fact you should not be in PVP. GO back to AA or farming wolves.
BE needed the nerf. I don't agree with pushing it into launch broken (too much magicka used on second cast instead of the stated 50%).0 -
ErykGrimm✭✭✭It should be balance, right? Bolt escape has a travel distance of 15 meters.
DK's chain reaches 22 meters and cost the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out of range fast, and two BE in a roll now cost (base)1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
NB's teleport strike also reaches 22 meters, cost about the same as bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Edit, as suggested:
Templar's Focused Charge and it's morphs also reaches 22 meters, cost even less than bolt escape, a sorc need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Silver Leash (morph of Silver Bolt of Fighters Guild) reaches 28 meters!, doesn't even cost magicka, a sorc definitely need two BE to get out the range, and two BE in a roll now cost (base) 1000 magicka and 700 with ALL the cost reductions.
Either these need out right higher cost (to 1000 base magicka or stamina, just as two BE in a roll would cost a sorc), or their ranges need to be shortened to 10 meters.
I'm gonna have to say nope, all of those require a target and aren't usuable in the same way bolt escape is. Make use of the stun, change direction to block LOS, etc etc. Just need to play smarter now instead of just spamming one button while you eat a sammich.
Also a few of those skills have absolutely no affect after the first cast. Because of cc break, etc. OP can't admit he is wrong at this point. He has passed the point of no return and will defend his flawed notions despite clear and concise arguments disproving his silly notion that a single skill should counter every other skill in the game.2 -
Well, it won't stop here. It's coming to the dks. It will probably hit the nb sooner then you think and then to many surprise, the templars will have some "adjustments" coming their way and in the middle of this the scorcs will get hit again for what....I suppose for BE again. Ether way, there are some very twisted hateful people commenting on one or two opposing class abilities when they simply can not see the big picture. With that, I don't have much sympathy for any class anymore. I'll just play the game tell it's not fun anymore and move on afterwords. That's why you all play isn't it? To try to have fun? But I guess that kind of fun really differs from everyone.0