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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Auction house is a must!
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Hawke✭✭✭✭alphawolph wrote: »Every game with an global auction house is subject to the "buy low, sell high".
Some players make a career out of it.
The problem is... when a player is paying 100,000 gold for a level 10 item, for his new character. Exageration, yes, but hopefully that drives the point home. With multiple markets, you can shop around for a better deal.
But this situation helps the new player. Instead of buying level 10 gear he should be selling his drops and making bank.
I apologize for not being clear... I was referring to other games like WoW, SWTOR, RIFT, etc. This game is different in many ways than those games.0 -
Mescalamba✭✭✭Chm.. AH si big no, no from me.
I made a suggestion about this topic some time ago.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/103777/issue-with-guilds-includes-solutions#latest
Feel free to add your .50 cents. Otherwise I still think that guild based store isnt bad idea, just implementation isnt perfect.Proud owner of personal vampire and werewolf army (4 werewolves/4 vampires)..
I'm also using large doses of irony and sarcasm.
Plus Im mean person, cause I really dont have reason to like you. Or anyone.0 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
But in the end this is all just moot speculation anyway. Because I can easily prove to you auction houses lead to a competitive market place that drives prices downward. Not up. Just go play any of those games I listed in my previous post and you will see that to be the case.
So you can continue to claim auction houses cause bots to inflate the market and make everyone pay higher prices. But they don't.
@Jeremy
1) No. I never said anything about them raising prices on the AH. In fact, it's the exact opposite. I think I mentioned that many times.
"Walmart isn't able to dominate the local competition here in the States because of Chinese sweat shops. If that was the case all the local stores would have to do is open up their own sweat shops to compete. But they can't. Because there are laws against that kind of activity here.
So corporations produce overseas where these laws do not exist. And this allows them to play by a different set of rules than their local competitors."
2) You basically just backed up what I said. Yes, WalMart hurts the Mom n Pop shops because they produce overseas. I don't understand why you're confused. A ware house set up in China paying a nickel an hour for hundreds of employees to farm mats and gold all day is just like the production shops WalMart uses overseas. They are adding a product for the American players (in this case gold). There is such a big market here for gold because the American dollar goes a HELLUVA lot further with them (Chinese) than it does here.
Lets say 100k ESO Gold costs you $10 bucks. That $10 is worth a lot more to them than it is to you. If their "Sweatshops" paid like an American minimum wage, they wouldn't be charging $10 for 100k gold...
If you were farming, how much gold do you acquire in an hour? What's minimum wage now, like 8 bucks? So you made yourself, 5k in that hour? Can you, if you were an American gold seller, sell that 5k for 8 bucks? No. Because the Chinese are producing much more gold at a much cheaper rate. I don't think there are any established gold selling companies in the US outside of private sellers (Like you or me trying to sell our personal gold) for this very reason. The Chinese are able to undercut ANYONE else.
Why does this matter? Because of the large influx of gold in to the economy, especially duped gold which is another topic on it's own. Because there is a HUGE market for gold sellers (It's an ungodly 1.8 billion$ industry in 2007) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/magazine/17lootfarmers-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 (This is a GREAT read)
When you put in a global auction house, they will set the low prices on all your materials you use for crafting. Which is a BAD thing in a player/crafter economy. If this specific game didn't revolve around player crafter gear being better, the auction house wouldn't be as devastating.
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Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭2 months later this is is being argued, even on these dead forums.
yeah what is the deal? guild stores totally stopped the gold sellers and botters. why is there anymore discussion about auction houses?
it's not like they are superior in every way to guild stores by allowing you the most variety and selection to all tradeable goods in the game.
It's because Jeremy is a casual who doesn't see the bigger picture. He has never been on the other end to know what gold farmers who sell to the public do to the game and who an Auction House is an enabler.
He wants to play an MMO, which is basically about character progression, put doesn't want to invest time in finding a good bargain or selling his wares.
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Asawasa✭✭✭
But in the end this is all just moot speculation anyway. Because I can easily prove to you auction houses lead to a competitive market place that drives prices downward. Not up. Just go play any of those games I listed in my previous post and you will see that to be the case.
So you can continue to claim auction houses cause bots to inflate the market and make everyone pay higher prices. But they don't.
@Jeremy
1) No. I never said anything about them raising prices on the AH. In fact, it's the exact opposite. I think I mentioned that many times.
"Walmart isn't able to dominate the local competition here in the States because of Chinese sweat shops. If that was the case all the local stores would have to do is open up their own sweat shops to compete. But they can't. Because there are laws against that kind of activity here.
So corporations produce overseas where these laws do not exist. And this allows them to play by a different set of rules than their local competitors."
2) You basically just backed up what I said. Yes, WalMart hurts the Mom n Pop shops because they produce overseas. I don't understand why you're confused. A ware house set up in China paying a nickel an hour for hundreds of employees to farm mats and gold all day is just like the production shops WalMart uses overseas. They are adding a product for the American players (in this case gold). There is such a big market here for gold because the American dollar goes a HELLUVA lot further with them (Chinese) than it does here.
Lets say 100k ESO Gold costs you $10 bucks. That $10 is worth a lot more to them than it is to you. If their "Sweatshops" paid like an American minimum wage, they wouldn't be charging $10 for 100k gold...
If you were farming, how much gold do you acquire in an hour? What's minimum wage now, like 8 bucks? So you made yourself, 5k in that hour? Can you, if you were an American gold seller, sell that 5k for 8 bucks? No. Because the Chinese are producing much more gold at a much cheaper rate. I don't think there are any established gold selling companies in the US outside of private sellers (Like you or me trying to sell our personal gold) for this very reason. The Chinese are able to undercut ANYONE else.
Why does this matter? Because of the large influx of gold in to the economy, especially duped gold which is another topic on it's own. Because there is a HUGE market for gold sellers (It's an ungodly 1.8 billion$ industry in 2007) http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/17/magazine/17lootfarmers-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 (This is a GREAT read)
When you put in a global auction house, they will set the low prices on all your materials you use for crafting. Which is a BAD thing in a player/crafter economy. If this specific game didn't revolve around player crafter gear being better, the auction house wouldn't be as devastating.
why use real world examples to justify inane logic? sweat shops, walmart, china, minimum wage have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPG. AH work best because of supply and demand. as many other people have noted there are a number of successful MMO with AH not this crappy guild store.1 -
Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭A limitation of 5 guilds + No Auction House means commerce sucks.
Commerce is annoying, it sucks. People are just lame capitalists who...
Player1: WTB Barbaric Motif 5k
Player2: WTB Kuta 200/ea
Player3: LFG Spindleclutch
Player1: WTS Barbaric Motif 60k
Player2: WTS Kuta 3.5k/ea
Player4: WTB Imperial Motif 5k
Player2: WTB Kuta 200/ea
Player1: WTS Barbaric Motif 60k
Player1: WTS Imperial Motif 50k
Player 2: WTS Kuta 3.5k/ea
I don't enjoy it, and I don't like dealing with other players for commerce. I am among those who wants the AH experience of look for the price I want, place my own offers and walk away and wait for cash ins.
Then again, in real life I hate haggling and negotiating with salesman who are trained and told to rip you off as much as possible and their commission depends on it. I snarl them away from me.
My answer then: I avoid commerce. I don't enjoy zone spamming, trade guilds are full of sellers not buyers unless you undercut the market 80%, and why should I have to spend so much time straining myself haggling with jerks when I could be having fun instead?
Hopefully there is an Auction House soon.Edited by Soloeus on June 6, 2014 10:38PM
Within; Without.3 -
AinGeal✭✭✭@Hawke
Will you stop already. I read a few more of your posts and when I read the one where you said that trading houses lead to inflation, I just skimmed a few more after that.
Such a statement is blatantly false and if you insist on continuing to present such statements when it is very clear that you have no authority on the matter, then I will simply start reporting your posts for 'intentionally posting misleading and false information'.
The guild store system is filled with flaws and not just because there are better market systems out there.
- Filters are limited. They need to rework the categories and subcategories.
- There isn't even a search function. By this I mean there isn't a search field where you can type in an item name, or part of a name, and get results.
- Once you do bring up a list of items, you can only sort the list by time left and price. Not by name.
- Then there is the "too many rapid searches in succession" message. WTF is that? It even occurs if I switch how the list is sorted too quickly (press time left too quickly or switch from price and time left too quickly). I'm simply sorting the list, it should be searching again.
- With the limited filter that are there, it doesn't filter properly. Rings and Amulets are considered materials? No they are apparel. Elixirs and Potions are not materials either. They should fall under food and potions.
- With a stack for sale, you are forced to by the stack.
To explain the last point better. You may be listing the item at a price for a stack but what you are doing is determining the price per unit you are willing to sell at based on the fact you are selling a stack. So where you would sell 75 for 85g, you will sell a stack of 100 for 100g. So for the stack of 75 and your willingness to sell at 85g, this means you value the stack at 1.13 gold per item. For the stack of 100, the value is 1g per unit.
Not allowing buyers to buy portions of the stack hurts both the seller and the buyer.
Let's say instead of 75 for 85g, it's 50 for 60g.
There is two stacks listed, the 50 for 60g and the 100 for 100g. The 100 for 100g might be the better deal but if I only need 50, I'll buy the 50 and save 40g. Yet if I could've bought a portion of the stack, I would've bought from the 100 and the person selling that stack of 100 would have half it sold. In fact, letting buyers buy portions of stacks will mean the stacks sell quicker. More gold/hour for the seller. So it's win/win.
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Soloeus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Auction Houses lead to price continuity where players eventually become educated and accept the normalized prices. When fluctuations occur, people are quickly aware and responsive.
Rather than hoping one of your current 499 maximum member clubs has buyers that want what you sell and sellers who have what you want at a reasonable price.
Commerce sucks without one.
I also constantly make the point that even Tibia, one of the oldest MMO's out there included an Auction House. I enjoyed using it. The only games without auction houses are games where commerce is locked behind clique walls.
When that happens, commerce isn't about trading or parties trying to benefit but about walking on eggshells in fear that disagreeing with someone might get you effectively locked out of the economy.
Within; Without.2 -
no auction house is stupid you are basically going to have pyramid trade guilds that will ruin this game .... a FAIR auction house LEVELS the playing field... so i WANT to sell a VR10 item for 10 gold my CHOICE not yours...3
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Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Hawke, brother I understand you are against Auction Houses but for the sake of God please stop saying they cause prices to go up, because it is NOT the case. If anything, they cause an undercutting war for the players who want the instant gratification of an "instant sale."
@Asawasa,
"why use real world examples to justify inane logic? sweat shops, walmart, china, minimum wage have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPG. "
They absolutely do matter when the Chinese are allowed to play on the same server as Americans. If you actually read what I wrote it wouldn't have to be repeated 100 times over. For the amount of money we pay them for gold they can hire hundreds of employees in their sweatshops to farm (gold, or mats) and flood the auction house with materials, undercutting anyone else.
What do you think will happen in a game where gear does not break (diminishing returns) and you have a large unlimited influx of crafting materials to a global auction house where crafted gear is the center of everything? Bad news Scooby Doo.
How much ore, for example, does VR level crafter armor cost to make? It better be a lot if an Auction House is implemented. Items need to be consumed if the crafting materials are relatively easy to gather, or available in large amounts.
@AinGeal
I don't know why people are bothering to argue that the guild stores are fine. It's not even an opinion, there are functions that are just not working. Search for Materials and there are armor, weapons, potions, etc in the search results. The UI is terrible and at the very least I would like a search bar.
I wish I could take some of the Anti-AH people off our side of the argument because they make us look bad.
Edited by Makkir on June 7, 2014 12:01AM0 -
Asawasa✭✭✭
@Asawasa,
"why use real world examples to justify inane logic? sweat shops, walmart, china, minimum wage have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPG. "
They absolutely do matter when the Chinese are allowed to play on the same server as Americans. If you actually read what I wrote it wouldn't have to be repeated 100 times over. For the amount of money we pay them for gold...
why are you paying them money for gold and why admit to it?1 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
@Asawasa,
"why use real world examples to justify inane logic? sweat shops, walmart, china, minimum wage have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPG. "
They absolutely do matter when the Chinese are allowed to play on the same server as Americans. If you actually read what I wrote it wouldn't have to be repeated 100 times over. For the amount of money we pay them for gold...
why are you paying them money for gold and why admit to it?
You have got to be a troll.
When I say we I am referring to all of us because as a group we are potential customers/a market, even though you or I individually may not be the ones buying gold.
But I understand how some people on these forums only read black and white.Edited by Makkir on June 7, 2014 12:18AM0 -
Atreidus✭✭✭korkibucek wrote: »What a *** up by the devs not having a global AH.
yes. The only ones which are liking that non ah feature are rmters or money price sharks.
They doont like to having others which are selling to and maybe an bit fairer.
iI dont get it why here is no server whide AH.
All reaons why not are only reasons why they shouldnt do it incause then this money sharks/rmts are loosing gold from the ripp off.Edited by Atreidus on June 7, 2014 12:29AM0 -
Hawke✭✭✭✭@AinGeal
I don't plan on changing my views on this, just like you don't plan on changing your views on it. So why would I be silent about it? That would be the same as me telling you that you are wrong, so why bother mentioning anything.
*shrugs*
I believe what I do, because I have seen it as games grow.
@Makkir
And yes, prices will overinflate and the gold farmers will be a larger threat to the game as a whole. More So because of the megaserver implementation.
I will definitely agree that the guild banks need better tools, like better sorting options, searches, etc. That would make things much MUCH easier when trying to find something. I believe ZOS got lazy and that important feature slipped but it seems it was on purpose because no change has happened since late beta when we tested the guild features.
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Arora✭✭✭I think a limited AH could be good. maybe you can only post one or two items in at a time, it least it sets a standard price. I don't ever know what to sell anything for.Arora Moon - EB- Nightblade
Arora Moonlight- EB- Sorcerer
- GM Souless-
Hail Sithis - Glory to the Night Mother0 -
AinGeal✭✭✭@AinGeal
I don't plan on changing my views on this, just like you don't plan on changing your views on it. So why would I be silent about it?
Because you lack the education and background to back up your views.That would be the same as me telling you that you are wrong, so why bother mentioning anything.
My education and experience vs your none. Clearly not the same.I believe what I do, because I have seen it as games grow.
You mean SWG that flopped hard?And yes, prices will overinflate and the gold farmers will be a larger threat to the game as a whole. More So because of the megaserver implementation.
I've already warned you about the spread of misinformation. I'll be reporting your post.Edited by AinGeal on June 7, 2014 1:13AM2 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
@Makkir
And yes, prices will overinflate and the gold farmers will be a larger threat to the game as a whole. More So because of the megaserver implementation.
Well, I think you're going at the argument wrong. Yes but not really because of the Auction House. As more gold is brought into the economy then over time you will see items raise in price, but that's only because generally speaking people will have more gold to spend than they do right now.
I used the World of WarCraft example previously that during vanilla 10k was A LOT of gold for someone to have whereas today 10k is a laughable amount.
Because I am not an economics major I might word this awkwardly so perhaps @AinGeal will chime in to fix what I am trying to say. The prices might increase over time, but the *value* is the same.
For example, during the first month of play you might average 10k gold on your character and a stack of Flax averages 1200gold/stack. In a year from now, as more and more gold enters the economy maybe your average character balance is 100k gold and now the average price per stack of Flax is 12k/stack.
Drastic examples yes, with no account to gold sinks in the game and assuming Flax is still at the same level of demand a year from now. But the general premise is there.
10k/1200g is the same as 100k/12000g
Edited by Makkir on June 7, 2014 2:01AM1 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭Of course the enormous amount of gold duping that occurred two months ago in this game threw a rather big monkey wrench in everything, along with the fact 100k gold was being spammed at what? 15 bucks?
Average/casual players probably shouldn't be running around with 500k gold. I am not at 50 or VR ranks right now, so what do I know?0 -
AinGeal✭✭✭Because I am not an economics major I might word this awkwardly so perhaps @AinGeal will chime in to fix what I am trying to say. The prices might increase over time, but the *value* is the same.
This is quite true.
Inflation to GDP is a natural occurrence for an economy (if it's healthy). It is referred to as Economic Growth. However, when comparing between time frames, this inflation is taken into consideration. This is referred as Real GDP.
By comparing the Real GDP between markets, this can allow us to better see where we sit now as compared to some time frame in the past and this will truly show us if the value of goods and services has actually gone up or down.
As this pertains to games, goods and services are the items being bought/sold and paying others to craft stuff for you respectively.
The problems with bots is that while economic growth is governed by the central bank, in-game economic growth is governed by the devs. Gold sellers are the in-game equivalent of counterfeiters.
The problem they bring, and any inflation they are responsible for is a multifaceted one. One that involves the buyer(s) almost more so than the sellers.Edited by AinGeal on June 7, 2014 1:45AM3 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭@AinGeal I will grant you credit where due, but back off SWG. That game only flopped because of the NGE (New Game Experience). If you don't know about this, it's worth the goggle. The story was in the New York Times I believe. People actually sued Sony Online Entertainment over it. Hah, this may even be the reason all the MMOs I have played since have that disclaimer "Gaming experience may change over time" you sometimes see upon logging in.
Literally overnight, SWG became a completely different MMO...I cannot stress that enough. At one point, it was an awesome, awesome sandbox MMO.Edited by Makkir on June 7, 2014 2:03AM0 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭
The problems with bots is that while economic growth is governed by the central bank, in-game economic growth is governed by the devs. Gold sellers are the in-game equivalent of counterfeiters.
The problem they bring, and any inflation they are responsible for is a multifaceted one. One that involves the buyer(s) almost more so than the sellers.
Perfect. I couldn't word it better. I wouldn't have as much beef with an Auction House in this game if Zeni banned the Chinese accounts from the NA server.
Or at the very least let items break over time after being repaired (straight from SWG).
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Asawasa✭✭✭
@Asawasa,
"why use real world examples to justify inane logic? sweat shops, walmart, china, minimum wage have absolutely nothing to do with MMORPG. "
They absolutely do matter when the Chinese are allowed to play on the same server as Americans. If you actually read what I wrote it wouldn't have to be repeated 100 times over. For the amount of money we pay them for gold...
why are you paying them money for gold and why admit to it?
You have got to be a troll.
When I say we I am referring to all of us because as a group we are potential customers/a market, even though you or I individually may not be the ones buying gold.
But I understand how some people on these forums only read black and white.
ok sure i'm a troll for pointing out you writing "we pay them for gold" which implied you're a gold buyer.1 -
Blackwidow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Guild stores suck.
Shouting to sell sucks.
AHs work, but could use some fine tuning to be better.
Don't throw out the baby with that bath water. Don't kill AHs because they need fine tuning.
It's that simple.1 -
Hamfast✭✭✭✭✭I am not an economics major, I did take a class in College, but that was a long time ago...
Let me try to say it this way...
You want to buy an item, you have your money in your pocket... you listen to folks yelling they have the item for sale... if you want it, you pay their price...
You want to buy an item, you have your money in your pocket... you look in your guild store... it's not there... you join 4 more guilds, if you can find them, look in their stores... quit those guilds look for more...
You want to buy an item, you have your money in your pocket... you go to the building in the major city you are in, you talk to an NPC who lists for you 250,000 people selling the same item you want... you buy the cheapest one... 249,999 folks don't make the sale because they were asking for more for the same item...
Competition lowers prices, it always lowers prices, if you think it does not, you are delusional...
Yes, having more money available will raise prices, supply and demand, small/controlled supply means higher prices, why do Chinese Gold Farmers work in China? because labor is cheap, they could not afford to hire folks in the US... why do they sell to folks in the US, too many think their time is worth more then the effort to earn that gold.
Last point, any time an item is sold in the the AH (single central location) for an exorbitant amount of gold, it can send up a red flag that says something is wrong, why would that item sell for so much? Is it an exploit? is it a bug? is it a rule breaker buying gold from another rule breaker selling that goldOf all the things I have lost, I miss my mind the most...3 -
Cogo✭✭✭✭✭
✭NO AH what so ever in ESO. It would ruin the player run economy that differs from zone to zone, from when you play, and the quality of trade guilds.
Lets see what the Kiosks are.
And please, No AH. It would ruin so much of the player economy thats current is building quite well.
Please look at the arguments for those who wants the AH.
1. Simple
2. Can buy anything you need
3. Dont have to find a good trade guild
Not to mention the high risk of goldsellers would love this.
All above reasons is part of what makes ESO unique from other games!
Do NOT take that away!
And to respond to the statement some do that there are so many different prices for the same items. Thats GREAT! It adds to the game.
There is an old, but very valid Economy rule:
"Everything is worth what a purchaser is prepared to pay for it"
So WHAT that you can get the same items for different prices. That makes good merchants as well!Edited by Cogo on June 7, 2014 5:15AMOghur Hatemachine, Guild leader of The Nephilim - EU Megaserver
Orc Weapon Specialist and Warchief of the Ebonheart Pact - Trueflame Cyrodiil War Campaign
Guildsite: The Nephilim
"I don't agree with what you are saying, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it"
-Voltaire
"My build? Improvise, overcome and adapt!"1
This discussion has been closed.