Divines vs Infused: A Comprehensive Study

RomedyMC · May 2014

@Ethoir - To be honest, the values I have thus far encountered are so small that this "correction" to the tooltip may be superficial in almost any real situation.

For example, the new numbers for 1400 magicka look like:
- Mundus stone increase: 1400 x .05 = 70
- Blue 1-pc Divines increase: 70 x .055 = 3.85 (prev 70 x .06 = 4.2)
- Required enchantment increase: (3.85 / 1.2) x 2.5 = 8.02 (prev 8.75)

If the rounding down theory still holds, you still need an increase of 8 over the base enchant to make Infused better than Divines.

Regardless, my impression is it further weakens Divines as an armor trait.

Ethoir · May 2014

That's what I thought. I built a Nightblade for Crit Damage mostly around Divines (and Well-Fitted for escaping). So if Divines is indeed nerfed, my Crit Damage is nerfed as well. Meaning my target is far more likely to stay above 50% health when I try to Snipe an arrow into their faces from 40 meters away (not that I've had any luck knocking any of my targets below 50% to begin with. Its wishful thinking. I'm lucky to knock them down to 75%).

Truno · May 2014

Great topic for sure. I have always been curious about this too. I wish though that there was a bit more information supplied about mundus stones. Ill be looking at shadow, thief, and warrior soon to test them out with divine and infused. First getting vr12 though if you find any information regarding those that would be amazing.
Good luck out there

RomedyMC · May 2014

@Truno I have yet to really look at the Shadow, Thief, and Warrior for a number of reasons, but since they should now be working as intended perhaps I should take a closer look.

The big question I still have is, "What influences crit?" My main, a Dragonknight, has 0% crit for both physical and spell, suggesting that your total stamina and magicka does not play a role.

Does that mean only passives influence crit? I have not played a Nightblade, ut if passives are the only thing influencing crit then I can compeltely understand the frustration.

Hodorius · May 2014

Great thread!
I am checking it out for updates every few days.

Thank you for your research!

Curragraigue · May 2014

@RomedyMC great post and research.

Medium armour, racial bonuses for a Khajiit, precise trait on weapons and some passives for different classes and guild skills (magelight) can all have an effect on melee and/or spell crit.

Tougher one to research due to their potentially being a benefit from the divines trait for the thief mundus stone to both melee and spell crit based on character build but would be good to know the answer.

Isibis · June 2014

@RomedyMC, love your work.

I am about to respec all my points into health, and will try to gather more data on the interaction of base resource pool and divines trait.

Crit is a complex system, made only worse by the fact that some skills, like Inner Light, are either not functioning or not displaying properly... I would however love to hear some answers if someone was brave enough to investigate it.

Elgarr · June 2014

I always wondered this, thank you those who contributed the time and effort to work this out, you saved me a lot of time

RomedyMC · June 2014

I have a suspicion that the answer will not be universal, either. My guess (and its only a guess) is that what determines crit for a NB is different than what determines crit for a DK.

RomedyMC · June 2014

Here are some quick calculations I made for a different thread regarding the Thief stone. TL;DR? 3 pieces of DIvines is ideal for the Thief stone and should increase your crit by 1%.

Thief increases crit 5% and assuming purple gear:
- 1st Divines piece adds .05 x .075 = .00375, or .375% If we are rounding down,
- 2nd Divines piece adds (.05 - .00375) x .075 = .00346, or .346%
- 3rd Divines piece adds (.05 - .00375 - .00346) x .075 = .0032, or .32%

While these calculations assume the subtractive rule for Divines holds true, it would indicate that 3 pieces of Divines gear would increase your crit chance by 1%.

I do not know what else influences crit and I am making some assumptions with these numbers, but these are based on the best data I have available at the moment.

Xnemesis · June 2014

I would only see this as a viable option over infused if the gains outweighed any overcharged gains, considering crit and crit damage don't have a cap.

Redwyrm · June 2014

Divines does not affect Shadow Mundus Stone. Not a tiny bit. 3412 stealth opener damage wasn't increased even by +1 then i equipped full blue divines set of armor.

Xnemesis · June 2014

Redwyrm wrote: »

Divines does not affect Shadow Mundus Stone. Not a tiny bit. 3412 stealth opener damage wasn't increased even by +1 then i equipped full blue divines set of armor.

wow I would /bug it that's whack lol

RomedyMC · June 2014

@Redwyrm - Absolutely /bug that.

@Xnemesis‌ - I completely agree. Although I do not play a class that relies on crit, buffing this otherwise unbuffable stat would take precedence imo. However, I am not convinced you could achieve more than a 1% gain based on perceived diminishing returns. So, a 7-piece Divines set?

I must point out that this is entirely speculation. I would love to have a NB put these numbers to the test as it is entirely possible that the Thief stone behaves differently than the Mage, Lord, and Tower stones.

forthewinn2 · June 2014

Redwyrm did you check your crit damage without the Shadow Mundus Stone active?
When I tested the Shadow Mundus Stone (post Craglorn launch) there was no boost to my crit damage (physical or spell). Thus I am led to believe that The Shadow Mundus Stone does not currently work and will consequentially receive zero buff from divines trait armor.

Has anyone noticed a boost in crit damage, when using the Shadow Mundus Stone?

RomedyMC · June 2014

@forthewinn2‌ - I am curious if that is a cosmetic-only error or really not working. Did you log out/in after activating the stone?

Neither answer would surprise me at this stage.

forthewinn2 · June 2014

@RomedyMC yeah I logged in and out, I also used foundry tactical combat to check my crit damage.
If the Shadow Mundus Stone is currently working for anyone please let me know......

RomedyMC · June 2014

@forthewinn2‌ - Excellent info. Thank you for sharing.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

RomedyMC wrote: »

Edit 5/23/14: Patch 1.1.2 has made changes to the tooltip values of Divines, reducing the bonus by .5%. (Confirmed, although whether this was a cosmetic change or a real value change is not verified.). Thanks to Ethoir for pointing this out.
Edit 5/22/14: Corrected the calculations. The entire post should now be accurate.
Edit 5/21/14: Change to the Mage stone increase to reflect in-game tests. Not yet applied to math within the cases, so cases are currently incorrect and an estimate at best.

TL;DR: It is my opinion that, when using health/magicka/stamina increase Mundus stones and with respect to total health/magicka/stamina, a player should use 2x Impenetrable and 2x Infused on their small pieces. The exception is, if a player is at the extreme upper end of total magicka (~2000) and not softcapped, then they should use 2x Impenetrable, 1x Infused, and 1x Divines for their small pieces.

Not a numbers person? Skip to the Conclusions to read the results of the math.

I know this has been discussed before in different threads, but wanted to bring it to a single location for the min/maxers out there. This will be a multi-post OP to try and keep things separated into baseline traits and special cases.

Cases to explore:
- The interaction of Mundus stone + Divines trait (Post 3)
- Subtractive nature of Divines = diminishing returns? (Post 3)
- The case of health glyphs: Is infused universally better?
- Other Mundus Stones

With regard to large pieces, my hypothesis is that Infused will universally provide more benefit than other traits. (Post 1)

With regard to small pieces, my hypothesis is that, at lower levels, Infused would give greater benefit than Divines but there exists a point at which the Infused increase is overtaken by the Divines increase. I will attempt to mathematically find this point. (Post 2)

The Mage stone does not give a universal increase to mana. A level 28 Templar received an increase of just over 7%, while a VR5 Dragonknight received slightly more than a 5% increase.

List of percentage increases for Infused and Divines traits:
Infused:
White = 8% Green = 11% Blue = 14% Purple = 17% Gold = 20%

Divines:
White = 3.5% Green = 4.5% Blue = 5.5% Purple = 6.5% Gold = 7.5%

(Source for trait percetnages)

First, we will need to separate our analysis into 2 categories: Chest, Legs, Helm, and Shield will be referred to as the "Large" category while Shoulders, Gloves, Belt, and Boots will be the "Small" category. Reason:
- Large items receive 100% glyph total
- Small items receive 40% of the glyph total

Large Pieces:Proof by induction: Given a starting point 1 and assuming a statement is true for an arbitrary x, then showing it is true for (x+1) means the statement will hold for any x in a given set.
- The starting point A level 1 cuirass with a white enchant. For simplicity, assume a player begins with 100 magicka and acquires the mundus stone The Mage. (A hypothetical to establish baseline, don't bash me for this being unrealistic.) The Mage's 5% increase would bolster magicka to 105. A Cuirass with Divines would increase magicka by 5 x .04 = .2. In order for Infused to give an equal return, a Lv1-10 glyph would need to add .2/1.08 = .19 magicka.

Conclusion: As long as the enchant provides 1 magicka it will be more efficacious than Divines.

- Arbitrary x+1: A Gold VR10 Cuirass with a gold enchant. Let's assume we have a mana pool of 2000 (Beyond softcap) and overcharge effects do not come into play. (For simplicity since the overcharge seems to be a linear percentage decrease and not an exponential decrease.) The Mage stone would increase our mana to 2100. Divines trait would increase by 100 x .08 = 8. Thus, our enchantment would need to increase magicka by 8/1.2 = 6.66 to be as effective.

Conclusion:Glyphs in the Vr3-5 range add 70 magicka, so when applied to a large gold piece the real value would be 84, an increase of 14 and well above our required 6.66 to be more effective than Divines.

The case of 1400 magicka
Mage stone increase: 1400 x .05 = 70
Increase from gold Divines trait: 70 x .075= 5.25
Minimum increase of enchant to be more effective: 5.25/1.2 = 4.375

The case of 1000 magicka
Mage stone increase:1000 x .05 = 50
Increase from gold Divines trait: 50 x .075 = 3.75
Minimum increase of enchant to be more effective: 3.75/1.2 = 3.125

Conclusion: Evidence suggests that, for large pieces, Divines should never be used as the gain from Divines is easily eclipsed by even low-level enchants. This finding supports the general consensus regarding Infused traits on large pieces.

As a scorc over all I use 2 impenetrable for tanking, all "large enchants" get infused rest gets divines. Works well for me! Also using divines will allow you too be more flexible over all build your builds and amour.

RomedyMC · June 2014

RomedyMC wrote: »

As a scorc over all I use 2 impenetrable for tanking, all "large enchants" get infused rest gets divines. Works well for me! Also using divines will allow you too be more flexible over all build your builds and amour.

Thanks for your post.

A min/maxer would debate your use of 2 Divines given the math, but I certainly won't. Do what works best for you.

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

RomedyMC wrote: »

RomedyMC wrote: »

As a scorc over all I use 2 impenetrable for tanking, all "large enchants" get infused rest gets divines. Works well for me! Also using divines will allow you too be more flexible over all build your builds and amour.

Thanks for your post. A min/maxer would debate your use of 2 Divines given the math, but I certainly won't. Do what works best for you.

I'm a slight min max/min type player however I play 3 different rolls 2 of the 3 rolls I play use the same gear, but different stone. So too cheapen stuff up I used divine trait so that if I had shadow stone on, all I'd have too do it go get the heal thing increase stone and the gear would help improve that.

This is how I work stats:
Stat points: use this for the one stat you don't want too have too augment through outside sources, this is the one stat that you don't want changing.

Gear traits: traits should improve the main focuses of your build, be it tanking, healing or dps, traits should alway compliment that.

Large Enchants: these should be used too fill in the gaps that your stat points don't fill. If u need 2000 magic and only have 1600 then 3 large enchants will give you1800(give or take).

Small enchants: these little guys by them selfs don't make a big difference, however together they can put that one stat that you need not too be supper high but if it's too low that will not work either. This is ware these little guys help out.

Stones: these guys should be used too change the focus of your build, so if your a healer and want too switch too dps if you have your build up right then all you would have too do is change your weapon, stone and food buff. Just with those three changes your completely moved into a whole new roll without much pain. The only exception is tanks, most of the time you don't want dps or healer stet bounces as a tank.

Amour Type: gear directly augments what you roll you fulling. If you in heavy amour healing as the main healer, your group is probably not going too be vary alive let alone happy(tell medium and heavy amour get buffed). This also depends on the group composition and such.

Jewelry: this should be used too help your main stats out, and used too augment lower priority "special" stats. For example, you have 2k magic, light amour, and 42% crit at that point what are u going too need more so then more crit? Personally I would go with spell power if you weapons are enabling you class skills too do more damage, if you main damage comes from weapons then spell power is something I would go with. Now if you too. Is performing dps wise perfectly and right on target but you notice your running outa magic too fast the magic regin goes on the rings.

Food Buffs augment only stats that you don't need changed and are fine ware they are now. So if your not planing on tanking and you have 1700 health you don't need a food that is increasing your health. Now on the flip side if you have enough health and magic, but don't really want too add it too stamina cuz it's not really going too help much then add it too the stat that enables you too fulfill the roll you want too play.

Builds: these guys are your foundation of what you want too do. This includes the actions bar and passives.

So BUILD<stat points<amour type<gear traits<large enchants<small enchants<stones<food

Anyway that just how I build my toons. I'm a old swg player and this game is vary alike in the way stats, gear, and keystrokes function.

Rhaphael · June 2014

@OP:

I don't believe Divine works subtractive at all. Based on your numbers my calculations actually proof they work as the tooltips suggest (when rounded down).

1st example your 28 templar:
before mage stone: 790 magicka
after mage stone: 846 magicka
difference: 56 magicka

1st divines piece (4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(1*(56*4.5%)) + 846 = 848
2nd divines piece (2x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(2*(56*4.5%)) + 846 = 851
3rd divines piece (3x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(3*(56*4.5%)) + 846 = 853

This is exactly the numbers you got.

2nd example your VR5 DK:
before mage stone: 1456 magicka
after mage stone: 1544 magicka
difference : 79 magicka

1st divines piece (4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(1*(79*4.5%)) + 1544 = 1547
2nd divines piece (2x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(2*(79*4.5%)) + 1544 = 1551
3rd divines piece (3x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(3*(79*4.5%)) + 1544 = 1554

First value is exactly what you saw. Second is only 1 point off. And I don't think you did the 3rd.

So according to my calculations there is no diminishing returns when you add more pieces and it simply adds them as you would expect (with the result rounded down).

Lokart · June 2014

Very interesting post. I have been wondering the same thing myself and was eager to see the maths cause I was too lazy to do it myself.
Comparing infused to divines using the attributes mundus stones to see the difference is a good way to estimate the divine trait impact. However, as a dd, I feel the divine trait is the only armor trait that affect directly your overall dps (with thief or shadow stone). This is probably not the case for all classes, cause some need ressources more than others.

Isibis · June 2014

Lokart wrote: »

Very interesting post. I have been wondering the same thing myself and was eager to see the maths cause I was too lazy to do it myself.
Comparing infused to divines using the attributes mundus stones to see the difference is a good way to estimate the divine trait impact. However, as a dd, I feel the divine trait is the only armor trait that affect directly your overall dps (with thief or shadow stone). This is probably not the case for all classes, cause some need ressources more than others.

I believe your damage output depends on the size of the resource said skill is using (stamina for weapons, magika for spells). Now, depending on your build the extra crit might be better, but resource pools are not to be ignored completely.

RomedyMC · June 2014

Rhaphael wrote: »

1st divines piece (4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(1*(56*4.5%)) + 846 = 848
2nd divines piece (2x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(2*(56*4.5%)) + 846 = 851
3rd divines piece (3x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(3*(56*4.5%)) + 846 = 853

This is exactly the numbers you got.

2nd example your VR5 DK:
before mage stone: 1456 magicka
after mage stone: 1544 magicka
difference : 79 magicka

1st divines piece (4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(1*(79*4.5%)) + 1544 = 1547
2nd divines piece (2x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(2*(79*4.5%)) + 1544 = 1551
3rd divines piece (3x 4.5% effect): expected result FLOOR(3*(79*4.5%)) + 1544 = 1554

First value is exactly what you saw. Second is only 1 point off. And I don't think you did the 3rd.

Being 1 point off is kind of a big deal, especially given a small sample (I would consider a level 28 a "small sample" versus a VR12. )

To examine further though, you are correct that the difference is slight. (1 point) BUT! That 1 point is what leads us to a subtractive conclusion. You make an error by assuming it behaves in a 3 x 4.5% manner. Further, the formula FLOOR(pieces*(magicka gain x percent)) is, in my opinion, incorrect due to that assumption.

If you disagree, take your character, strip them naked, and gain the Mage stone. Measure the magicka gain. Then use your formula to predict the results. I admit I should have gone beyond 3 Divines pieces, so I would ask you to do up to 5 pieces Divines.

Then use my formula to predict the increases. (Removing the rpevious magicka gain each time.)

I would predict that the differences would still be minor, perhaps a couple points, but to the min/maxer these points are precious.

Rhaphael · June 2014

RomedyMC wrote: »

If you disagree, take your character, strip them naked, and gain the Mage stone. Measure the magicka gain. Then use your formula to predict the results. I admit I should have gone beyond 3 Divines pieces, so I would ask you to do up to 5 pieces Divines.

Then use my formula to predict the increases. (Removing the rpevious magicka gain each time.)

Done. Here are my results. I can only craft up to 3 pieces with the Divine trait so I stuck with that. I might repeat this test later when I can obtain more pieces.

My char: Dunmer DK VR2. Naked.

I'm using Harven's Extended Stats to visualize some of the hidden stats btw.

HP: 1880
Magicka: 1188
Stamina: 1155

In combat regens:
HP: 31
Magicka: 55
Stamina: 55

Out of combat regens:
HP: 126
Magicka: 109
Stamina: 109

Weapon Damage: 124

Mundus Stones tested:
The Lord: +100 HP
The Mage: +109 Magicka (+100 +9% Dunmer bonus)
The Tower: +106 Stamina (+100 + 6% Dunmer bonus)
The Serpent: +17 out-of-combat Health Recovery (in combat recovery stayed the same)
The Atronach: +17 out-of-combat Magicka Recovery and +17 in-combat Magicka Recovery
The Apprentice: +250 Focus Rating (spell penetration)
The Lover: +100 Spell Resistance
The Warrior: +12 Weapon Damage

I was using 3 light armor pieces with the Divine trait, so that complicates my calculations for the Atronach, Apprentice and Lover because of passive skills of the Light Armor line and as such I will not show those.

My expected values assume no diminishing returns and as such assume a 4.5%+4.5%+4.5% increase.
RomedyMC's expected values assume a diminishing returns and as such assume a 4.5%+4.3%+4.1% increase.

Mage results
total 1188+109=1297 magicka
(# pieces, observed, expected my formula, expected your formula)
1: 1301 / 1301 / 1301
2: 1306 / 1306 / 1305
3: 1311 / 1311 / 1309

Tower results
total 1155+106=1261 stamina
(# pieces, observed, expected my formula, expected your formula)
1: 1265 / 1265 / 1265
2: 1270 / 1270 / 1269
3: 1275 / 1275 / 1273

Serpent results
total 126+17=143 out-of-combat health recovery
(# pieces, observed, expected my formula, expected your formula)
1: 143 / 143 / 143
2: 144 / 144 / 143
3: 145 / 145 / 143

Warrior results
total 124+12=136 weapon damage
(# pieces, observed, expected my formula, expected your formula)
1: 136 / 136 / 136
2: 136 / 137 / 136
3: 137 / 137 / 136

Conclusion
The expected values calculated with my formula are spot on for all but 1 case. Your expected values are usually too low, but only by up to a few points, so not much either. Based on these results I hypothesize that there are indeed NO diminishing returns on Divine traits and that they simply stack, because if there would be my expected values would be too high in most cases and they aren't.

Generally the difference between no diminishing returns and diminishing returns is soo small (with these numbers at least) that we really need more than 3 Divine pieces to really tell the difference.

RomedyMC · June 2014

@Raphael - Outstanding!

I'm curious if this change occurred when the Divines tooltip changed? Although I do not play ESO much anymore, I did log in briefly and found my previous results are no longer accurate. I agree that the subtractive model is no longer correct.

Well bugger.

Rhaphael · June 2014

Yeah it was probably a result of the tooltip change. When the tooltips say 5% and internally it works as 4.5% I can understand why you would to start suspect a diminishing returns model.

HeroOfEvbof · June 2014

I will be interested in the Divines debate after the crit stones and spell pen stones are working.
I can say definitively that The Apprentice is not working right now (6/17), ZOS is aware and no timeframe given to fixing it.

Rhaphael · June 2014

HeroOfEvbof wrote: »

I will be interested in the Divines debate after the crit stones and spell pen stones are working.
I can say definitively that The Apprentice is not working right now (6/17), ZOS is aware and no timeframe given to fixing it.

How is The Apprentice not working? The stat change is reflected on the character screen, so that part at least works. If it's the case of it not increasing your damage, perhaps the mobs you tested on don't have spell resistance.