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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Auction house is a must!
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Since my AH Thread was closed regarding the auction house I am reposting my comment here "for consolidation purposes".
I know there are critics out there who hate the idea of Auction Houses but it seems like not having one is worse than having one. Gold serves as a medium of exchange just as the dollar bill. This a bad design from an economics standpoint. The value of gold has no public purchasing power besides using it to repair, port and buy from in-game merchants or P2P (G2P) transfers.
The intent might be to combat botters and gold farmers... But guess what! Gold farming is going to be present if you like it or not I.E. WoW still has it and it is the most successful MMORPG of all time. The only true way to combat this is to make gold farming less cost efficient for the company doing it. I.E. make player to player exchanges of any sort only unlockable at level 10 (This includes mail, ah, P2P trades and transfers, bank, etc.).
Some will say "Yes you can buy from people or guilds" but honestly why waste time running around in a circle spamming the local chat. MMORPGs of the past have proven that open market auction houses or even faction specific auction houses are by far the most successful method to combat gold inflation. (ESOs economy is worse than Zimbabwe's) I loved WoW because of the ability to successfully manage the AH. It's a game within a game.
Maybe the attempt is to combat the feeling of needing to farm? But this seems illogical too since you have to farm your brains out to level any sort of craft.
Whatever it is or may be an AH is by far the best thing this game could implement besides fixing memory leaks and other bugs.3 -
methjester✭✭✭These "professional developers" can't issue a hotfix for caltrops, and that's a pvp gambreaker. After the 1.1 clusterbunk I don't think they're capable of adding an auction house. Also, I don't think they care. If they did, they would fix game breaking things quicker.
Everyone agrees the economy stinks. Talking to a dev, or a zeni rep is impossible so comminication to get a handle on a fix to an economy solution is at their mercy... and they can't do a simple hotfix to save pvp let alone something that effects everyone.
I've never seen a game company act so slowly on major things. Lesser things, I don't ever expect to see.2 -
Dumbledalf The price of an Item will never drop lower than its desirability. If there is no demand for an item then the price drops until supply meets demand...
ALSO might I add, the price of an item that can be deconstructed will never be lower than the value of the mats it produces Every item has a price potential and it directly reflects the demand for the item according to its potential (STATS/MATS).
I would also like to add propensity to consume into my argument. A person will never buy an Item that does not fall within their Marginal Propensity to Consume (MPC). Over inflation of an item results in a decrease in demand and an increase in supply, so price gouging is not something one should be worried about in a free market unless a monopoly is set in place (ULTRA-HIGHLY UNLIKELY).
I would also like to state that a free-market economy (Auction House) price can be adjusted server-side by simply increasing or decrease drop rates. Decreasing drop rates increases demand and decreases supply which results in a higher price for the item.
And finally I would like to dive into the idea that people believe everyone will be running around with purple items. Having a purple item does not make it best in slot. If everyone would be running around with purple items then that means someone messed up drop rates. AND if the drop rate is so high for Epics why in the world are there people out there still in greens doing endgame?Edited by secretsquirrel956 on May 29, 2014 3:56PM0 -
Halrloprillalar✭✭✭✭✭I'm about 90% sure the only reason we DON'T have a global AH is because botters/exploiters would instantly ruin the economy of the entire game.
ZOS can't guarantee that they can prevent this, so we won't be getting an AH."nerf rock, paper is fine" - scissors
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Halrloprillalar wrote: »I'm about 90% sure the only reason we DON'T have a global AH is because botters/exploiters would instantly ruin the economy of the entire game.
ZOS can't guarantee that they can prevent this, so we won't be getting an AH.
Nor can blizzard but yet WOW economy is stable. The idea of avoiding this facet of economy because of 'fear' is the lousy strategy. If you want to swim you have to be willing to get sunburned, how bad you get sunburned depends on the measures you take to help minimize damage.Edited by secretsquirrel956 on May 29, 2014 4:06PM5 -
Halrloprillalar✭✭✭✭✭secretsquirrel956 wrote: »Halrloprillalar wrote: »I'm about 90% sure the only reason we DON'T have a global AH is because botters/exploiters would instantly ruin the economy of the entire game.
ZOS can't guarantee that they can prevent this, so we won't be getting an AH.
Nor can blizzard but yet WOW economy is stable. The idea of avoiding this facet of economy because of 'fear' is the lousy strategy. If you want to swim you have to be willing to get sunburned, how bad you get sunburned depends on the measures you take to help minimize damage.
Blizzard (WoW) does not have a "global" AH. It has server AHs, all of which have their own local overlords and bankrollers... I know because I used to be one, and used to seriously troll the gem and glyph market on my server. I do feel slightly bad about it.
WoW also doesn't have a market exclusively for 4 motifs and a recipe.
If you want an example of a royally *** up economy due to a 'global' AH: were you around for vanilla D3? For the plague of bots, gold farmers and the catastrophe that it caused via the real-money auction house (RMAH) and subsequently gold AH? Can you guess what happened? There is no longer an AH (GAH OR RMAH) in the game at all. I suspect you can guess why.
"nerf rock, paper is fine" - scissors
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Denaia✭✭✭✭Do you guys know what happened in GW2 which had a global auction house? Every item costed 1 more gold then the vendor price, now matter how rare. Also there was never a need to put any effort into anything as you could buy the best gear in the game for 1 gold more then the auction house.
If Zenimax adds one in eso then we will get the same here. So please do not add a global auction house, it would totally destroy the game.5 -
Nephys✭✭✭@Denaia In the same way that the tedious and inefficient trade system in place is also 'destroying the game'? Frankly there are other issues that will 'destroy the game' and a global auction house, or lack of one, is well down the list.
However, there have been many suggestions on how to improve what is in place; faction based, zone based, suchlike. Personally I want a global AH, but I understand why some do not.
I think you have over-stated the state of the GW2 auction house. There are still many items which are well over vendor price and making gold in that game is easy enough.ZoS Ambassadors please do not bother responding to me because I have you on ignore. Your input is neither valued or welcomed.1 -
Denaia✭✭✭✭@Denaia In the same way that the tedious and inefficient trade system in place is also 'destroying the game'? Frankly there are other issues that will 'destroy the game' and a global auction house, or lack of one, is well down the list.
However, there have been many suggestions on how to improve what is in place; faction based, zone based, suchlike. Personally I want a global AH, but I understand why some do not.
I think you have over-stated the state of the GW2 auction house. There are still many items which are well over vendor price and making gold in that game is easy enough.
Well I think the guildstores in cities that can be bought are a good beginning.
But I do have one suggestion that might solve this issue
Add a reversed auction house, let people list what they want for the price they want to buy it to and then let people that have it sell the items that way. Then you get prices going up instead of constantly going down. That might combat the huge 'downside' of a worldwide AH even though I am not a huge fan of this system it is better then a global ah.2 -
Nephys✭✭✭@Denaia Good idea - enabling buyers to advertise would be a big improvement to the current system, and enabling a two way thing would work also.
Personally, I would not bother using a guild store in cities, partly because I think forcing people into guilds is not a good thing, and thus I don't support such. I prefer to join guilds to play the game, or RP, not to trade.
ZoS Ambassadors please do not bother responding to me because I have you on ignore. Your input is neither valued or welcomed.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Do you guys know what happened in GW2 which had a global auction house? Every item costed 1 more gold then the vendor price, now matter how rare. Also there was never a need to put any effort into anything as you could buy the best gear in the game for 1 gold more then the auction house.
If Zenimax adds one in eso then we will get the same here. So please do not add a global auction house, it would totally destroy the game.
This wasn't the case when I played Guild Wars 2. I was able to sell my stuff for a tidy profit at a record pace. I loved the auction house on Guild Wars 2. It worked better than any other game economy I've been on.
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Halrloprillalar✭✭✭✭✭@Denaia In the same way that the tedious and inefficient trade system in place is also 'destroying the game'? Frankly there are other issues that will 'destroy the game' and a global auction house, or lack of one, is well down the list.
However, there have been many suggestions on how to improve what is in place; faction based, zone based, suchlike. Personally I want a global AH, but I understand why some do not.
I think you have over-stated the state of the GW2 auction house. There are still many items which are well over vendor price and making gold in that game is easy enough.
Well I think the guildstores in cities that can be bought are a good beginning.
But I do have one suggestion that might solve this issue
Add a reversed auction house, let people list what they want for the price they want to buy it to and then let people that have it sell the items that way. Then you get prices going up instead of constantly going down. That might combat the huge 'downside' of a worldwide AH even though I am not a huge fan of this system it is better then a global ah.
GW2 AH was a bidding system. You listed items at a specific price, or you could look at the 'buy orders' that have been posted and fill them.
It still made any kind of profit making highly marginal (anything but the rarest items were ~vendor price). The only upside in GW2 was that gold was fairly meaningless and the whole game doesn't have a real 'progression' so bots are not as rampant.
"nerf rock, paper is fine" - scissors
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Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭@secretsquirrel956
You realize they're two different games right?
In Warcraft, the best gear comes from raids/drops. In ESO, it has been stated many times crafters will put out the best gear. The reason behind this is because Legendary gear doesn't drop, purple crafted or dropped gear is upgraded by crafters. Crafting is more meaningful. The economy in ESO at the moment is more player centric than it is loot centric like WoW.
Your argument lost it's validity unless you change it from "Wow's economy is stable."secretsquirrel956 wrote: »Halrloprillalar wrote: »Nor can blizzard but yet WOW economy is stable. The idea of avoiding this facet of economy because of 'fear' is the lousy strategy. If you want to swim you have to be willing to get sunburned, how bad you get sunburned depends on the measures you take to help minimize damage.Edited by Makkir on June 5, 2014 2:43AM1 -
Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭This wasn't the case when I played Guild Wars 2. I was able to sell my stuff for a tidy profit at a record pace. I loved the auction house on Guild Wars 2. It worked better than any other game economy I've been on.
Has to be a troll.....???
Brother, thankfully this game isn't built on the ideas of @Jeremy or it would be just as much an epic fail as the annoying Pearl Jam song.
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AinGeal✭✭✭This wasn't the case when I played Guild Wars 2. I was able to sell my stuff for a tidy profit at a record pace. I loved the auction house on Guild Wars 2. It worked better than any other game economy I've been on.
Has to be a troll.....???
Brother, thankfully this game isn't built on the ideas of @Jeremy or it would be just as much an epic fail as the annoying Pearl Jam song.
The troll here you for two reasons...
First, the trading house in GW2 was just fine. It brought prices to a proper level based on supply and demand. Profits were marginal? Their suppose to be. Rational people think at the margin. Proper business works at the margin. I made money off of it. Perhaps it was simply too complex of a market for some to properly work (despite it being rather basic) or perhaps the people who didn't like it were just unreasonable. It's harder to rip people off when one is in place.
Second, all PJ songs are awesome for they are an awesome band. Still putting out new songs that I've heard while listening to Octane.
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Makkir✭✭✭✭✭
✭@AinGeal Really? Is this why you can walk in to a store and find an item for $150 and then drive to WalMart and find same item for $100? Can you imagine if there was a real life Auction House where all consumers could visit and see product prices by seller? Who wins that battle? Exactly why Mom and Pop shops hate Walmarts coming to their towns.
Now enough with the real life analogies, this is a fantasy game that doesn't have the same rules the outside world has.
Nobody said, well not I anyway, that Auction Houses are the root of all that is evil. There are some pros such as convenience. Nobody wants to pay out the butt for a rare item, but then again no seller wants to line all his rare items up with the others' so they can engage in an undercutting war.
When you have a system set up like ESO, aka "blind" market, basically it forces the consumer to have to shop around for deals or bargain with sellers. Why shouldn't you have to work to score a good deal? The blind market means you have to visit vendors individually to view items and prices (In this case up to 5 since you can only currently join 5 guilds) rather than seeing everything on one mega database (like an auction house). I can understand why as a consumer (and yes I am one too) you would want an auction house and they probably function a lot better in loot centric (the item Binds on Pick Up) MMO economies like World of WarCraft, but ESO is a player/crafter centric game. I can make this claim since it was stated by Paul Sage,
"Q: In end game on ESO, will the Crafting gear be equivalent or better then dungeon drops? Most MMO’s gear crafting is only good to an extent which gets replaced quickly to the pve enthusiasts. Will the reward of say Legendary or Epic crafts be a notable difference then a drop anyone can get from a dungeon?
A: Crafted gear of equal level and equal quality rating is always better than dropped gear from a numerical standpoint. Weapons do more damage, armor has more… armor. However, certain enchantments can only be found on drops. Crafters can always improve those items which have unique enchantments. Legendary items do not drop…"
Source- http://www.talesoftamriel.com/tesoelite-crafting-qa-with-paul-sage/
Once you have an economy that centers around player made goods, you absolutely DO NOT want a global auction house. Star Wars Galaxies was an excellent example. There was a terminal that let you browse player made goods, but it was lame and nothing in comparison to modern day Auction Houses (Hell, I don't even remember the name of the terminal it was that un-important). That game revolved around my ability to promote my goods on the official forums, a website, and advertising in game. SWG was another example of a crafter- centric economy.
First, the trading house in GW2 was just fine. It brought prices to a proper level based on supply and demand. Profits were marginal? Their suppose to be. Rational people think at the margin. Proper business works at the margin. I made money off of it. Perhaps it was simply too complex of a market for some to properly work (despite it being rather basic) or perhaps the people who didn't like it were just unreasonable. It's harder to rip people off when one is in place.
Edited by Makkir on June 5, 2014 6:00AM3 -
Razzak✭✭✭✭✭
Then why aren't they using guild store? Why would they spend time on a chat if this guild store does satisfy their needs?
Is it maybe because they can do it better via chat?1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This wasn't the case when I played Guild Wars 2. I was able to sell my stuff for a tidy profit at a record pace. I loved the auction house on Guild Wars 2. It worked better than any other game economy I've been on.
Has to be a troll.....???
Brother, thankfully this game isn't built on the ideas of @Jeremy or it would be just as much an epic fail as the annoying Pearl Jam song.
Why does sharing my positive experiences with the auction house on Guild Wars 2 make me a troll?
Also: many of the most successful MMORPGs have used auction houses as a basis for their player-driven economy. So to claim if this game had one it would be an epic failure as a result doesn't make any sense.
Edited by Jeremy on June 5, 2014 9:26AM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@AinGeal Really? Is this why you can walk in to a store and find an item for $150 and then drive to WalMart and find same item for $100? Can you imagine if there was a real life Auction House where all consumers could visit and see product prices by seller? Who wins that battle? Exactly why Mom and Pop shops hate Walmarts coming to their towns.
We already have a real life Auction House. It's called the internet. It works great and I use it to buy things all the time.
And the Walmart analogy really has no place in this debate. Because the main reason this corporation is able to sell so cheaply and still profit is because its goods are manufactured overseas in countries like China to reduce production cost. Which isn't a factor here.Edited by Jeremy on June 5, 2014 9:59AM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Then why aren't they using guild store? Why would they spend time on a chat if this guild store does satisfy their needs?
Is it maybe because they can do it better via chat?
That is exactly why.
Which is also why you see very little trade spam on games that have an auction house. Because most people tend to use the tools that are more effective.
Just the fact that so many people on this game prefer shouting in chat to try and buy/sell rather than use these guild stores shows just how badly they suck.Edited by Jeremy on June 5, 2014 9:35AM2 -
Having read most of the pro's and con's cited in this thread I still prefer an AH over a guild store because the AH doesn't necessarily suffer from a low player base whereas guilds with inactive members do thus their guild trading store becomes stagnant (as has already been the case I believe and the game is not yet 3 months old).
When I played UO in the '90's I loved their trading system where players could hire their own vendor and sell stuff at prices set by the player. People got to know where the best player vendors were for good quality/fair prices and those players made their profits.
So if the ESO guild trading store isn't working (as a lot of complaints seem to bear out) and there seems to be an anti-AH group in ESO why doesn't Zenimax compromise and offer us the chance to open up our own individual vendors by the side of the roads outside the towns (which would prevent clutter within the NPC areas. Players could set their own price and buyers can decide whether or not to buy. It then becomes a normal supply/demand market.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭c1r3gamerb16_ESO wrote: »
So if the ESO guild trading store isn't working (as a lot of complaints seem to bear out) and there seems to be an anti-AH group in ESO why doesn't Zenimax compromise and offer us the chance to open up our own individual vendors by the side of the roads outside the towns (which would prevent clutter within the NPC areas. Players could set their own price and buyers can decide whether or not to buy. It then becomes a normal supply/demand market.
Final Fantasy 14 tried something similar to this. The problem becomes the sheer quantity of vendors a player is expected to browse. And it quickly becomes tedious and time-consuming.
So for this type of system to work effectively a search function that allows players to list and compare the goods being sold needs to be put in place. And at that point you may as well just have a traditional auction house. Because that's essentially what it would be anyway.Edited by Jeremy on June 5, 2014 10:06AM0 -
@Jeremy: I get your point however if players looked at these local player "shops" in the same way we do our RL shopping perhaps it would bring a feeling of being immersed in the world of ESO as we travel the lands. In UO guilds would build a house to put their vendors in one place, and we used to keep note of the vendor name where good stuff could be had - especially consumables.
Unfortunately, perhaps in this fast paced modern world, players just want a fast click/buy option without moving outside their locality. So from my point of view regional AH's would be the solution so every player has the chance to buy/sell instead of being locked into 5 guilds.0 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭A global AH at this time would probably result in rampant inflation, unless ZOS has managed to catch the item dupers / gold sellers / gold buyers out there, which I very much doubt.
That said, I would very much prefer to see a global AH than the current guild store system. Surely there must be ways to prevent market manipulation, such as a "cooldown period" for AH-bought items (i.e. you can't post an item you bought at the AH for x days after the purchase, to prevent gold hoarders from buying all of a given item and reposting at a higher price point).0 -
Wintersage✭✭✭
QFT. FFXIV's original Bazaar system was hideous. Truly terrible. ESO's isn't really much better. Talk about not learning from past mistakes...Final Fantasy 14 tried something similar to this. The problem becomes the sheer quantity of vendors a player is expected to browse. And it quickly becomes tedious and time-consuming.
List and compare. This. People often seem to forget that comparing gear is one of the better arguements in favor of an AH. Especially if situational gear really comes into vogue. (It could happen.)So for this type of system to work effectively a search function that allows players to list and compare the goods being sold needs to be put in place. And at that point you may as well just have a traditional auction house. Because that's essentially what it would be anyway.0
This discussion has been closed.