shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

Thank you all for posting, you have all made very good points, but no one has addressed the elephant in the room.

For every one hardcore MMO player who applauds forced grouping, tiny xp gain, high difficulty for solo players that V2 onwards is, there are one hundred casual gamers who shrug, turn off and go play something else.

The simple fact is that there is no money in pandering to those players who want the game as hard as possible as there are not enough of you.

So, either ESO reduces the difficulty of the Veteran levels to keep it's casual gamers or it will fail.

I'm sorry for all of you that are nostalgic for the days of EQ, but the modern business model just doesn't support it anymore.

Maybe.

Though I'll never understand what the point is of an MMORPG if people are going to solo all or even most of the time. Kind of defeats the whole purpose in my opinion of a multi-player game.

Just to add, I never meant to imply players should be forced to group. I just don't think solo-play should be what is emphasized in the game design.

Jeremy wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I long for the Good Old Days of LOTRO before it went FTP. Solo challenge that might require getting some help or might not, periodic group challenges to progress the plot and rewarding instanced dungeons for those who liked that sort of thing.
.

Lord of the Rings was indeed a stellar game back in the old days.

Yea. What it became is what propelled me towards ESO. One of the saddest moments of my gaming life was when I was beta testing Helm's Deep and realising that LOTRO and my much-loved Hunter was dead and gone.

Jeremy wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

I long for the Good Old Days of LOTRO before it went FTP. Solo challenge that might require getting some help or might not, periodic group challenges to progress the plot and rewarding instanced dungeons for those who liked that sort of thing.
.

Lord of the Rings was indeed a stellar game back in the old days.

Yea. What it became is what propelled me towards ESO. One of the saddest moments of my gaming life was when I was beta testing Helm's Deep and realising that LOTRO and my much-loved Hunter was dead and gone.

It annoyed me too what they did to that game. So much in fact I got a permanent ban from their forums because they got tired of hearing my mouth criticizing them for it

I bet we probably know each other from the forums then. I was banned for a long time as well for the usual Sapience made up reasons. It expired recently but I only log on in LOTRO every now and then to say hi to the old guild.

But LOTRO did hold its own for a long time.

They've (LOTRO) nerfed player mitigations so mobs hit a lot harder now. But the tree system is unchanged and as unresponsive as ever. Playing my hunter now is like trying to play The emperor concerto on an 8 key keyboard.

Some of my finest gaming moments came in GrandStair Moria pugs where me knowing how to play my hunter incredibly well could turn things around. Now hunters are just DPS thugs pressing the same 4 button rotation as everyone else.

I just hope Zenimax can find it within themselves to turn ESO around. There's a lot to like and a lot to build on.

But I'm keeping my eye on ArcheAge as a back-up. It's looking a worthy successor to Ultima Online as a sand-box.

According to Wikipedia:

MMO may refer to:

Science, technology, and biology
Marine mammal observer, a professional in environmental consulting
Methane monooxygenase, an enzyme
Mixed metal oxide, a type of electrode
Mach Maximum Operating (MMO), a speed limit shown on a machmeter
Mercury Magnetospheric Orbiter, a key component of the ESA-led Mercury mapper BepiColombo
Mini-Mag Orion, a proposed type of spacecraft propulsion
Other uses
Means, motive, and opportunity, three aspects of a crime (U.S.)
Melton Mowbray railway station, National Rail station code MMO (England)
Minimum Municipal Obligation, minimum contribution to a pension plan
Music Minus One, music

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

The 'difficulty', if that's the word I'm looking for, is probably back to pre-helm's deep. EG - not that difficult at all but like an old guildie said:

'At least Wardens can die now.'

Trait trees are bad enough but their implementation was the worst conceivable one. As for the Helm's Deep battles ... That has to be the single worst thing i've seen in an MMO.

"In your face Saruman. Helm's Deep shall not fall while I still have the strength to click on ladders!"

Yeah I played a warden. I had to solo 6 man dungeons to get any kind of a challenge. Otherwise I could literally just use my auto attack to kill everything while questing. My captain could do the same. It was just pathetically easy.

I never bought Helm's Deep because it sounded too dumb.

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

To me a successful MMO is a game that appeals to the complete range of it's customer base.

So, based on that comment alone, there is no such thing as a 'successful MMO'! No game ever appeals to the complete range of it's customer base, people like parts and dislike parts, it's human nature.

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

The ability for everyone to be able to reach maximum level with an interesting storyline is paramount (no matter the skill level).

For you, maybe, but that certainly isn't the opinion or priority for all MMO gamers.

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

ESO delivers to the hardcore gamer in spades, after V1 everything becomes a huge grind - tough mobs, little xp gain, and dungeons that require a lot of tactics and group play to succeed.

Unfortunately, for the casual gamer, everything stops at V1, the ratio of enjoyment and progression compared to difficulty starts to grow exponentially in the wrong direction, to the point that someone who has only a few hours a night to spare to play starts to wonder why they are bothering.

Both these points are heavily dependant on your interpretation of 'hardcore' and 'casual'. I consider many players as 'hardcore' compared to me but that doesn't mean they have any skill or want any of the things you have listed. I also consider myself a casual gamer but what I want out of a gamer differs somewhat from your definition. I consider myself casual because I take my time and enjoy the ride, however I also expect tough mobs, challenges and dungeons that need a bit of work to finish

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

For the rest of us we have to either accept that it will take us months to get up the Veteran levels or to just throw in the towel and give up.

Nothing will ever change this, if you have more time to play you will inevitably complete things faster than someone who doesn't have the time, this is a fact of life not something specific to games. The problem is that more and more people expect to be able to achieve things at the same rate but without putting in as much time and/or effort over the same overall period. I acknowledge that is quite a broad generalisation and isn't aimed and the OP or anyone in particular.

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

Without a large customer base Zenimax cannot afford to develop the game and it becomes free to play rather than subscription. This is then followed by the likely dumbing down of the game to attract more players and ESO becomes another Rift.

#

The irony here is that with a relatively successful F2P game the overall revenue is probably very similar to a subscription MMO. Many people will actually spend more in a RL ingame cash shop, per month, than they may spend on a subscription, and yet many of those same people post arguments against a subscription model!

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

My suggestion is that that you make levelling easier and then make the endgame (dungeons, adventure zones, etc...) much harder so that we feel we have accomplished something and actually care about staying.

Are you talking about ESO specifically here? I wonder as I would be interested in how they could possibly make the lvl 1-50 process easier. At the moment is incredibly easy even with a substandard build apart from a very few fights that offer a bit of a challenge.

shaw487b16_ESO wrote: »

That way you give the hardcore gamers their tough area and still keep the appeal to the casual gamer.

I see, and don't totally disagree with the over thoughts and comments within your post. However, no game will (or can) truly achieve this balance. If there is hardcore content then that should, logically, have better rewards associated with it otherwise what really is the point? You then run headlong back into the same fundamental problem in that the casual gamers will shout and complain because they do not have access to all the content (top tier gear)! Its a viscious and never ending circle.

Ragekniv wrote: »

ESO is a kindercare MMO. Nothing about ESO is hardcore!

EQ:

Played EQ on Rallos Zek (PvP) as a level 65 gnome necromancer.

No newbie safety zone, a level 65 toon could smoke any level one. You lost experience when you died, had to travel naked by foot to the zone to find your body before it decayed with all your gear and coin and players could perma camp your corpse until you had piles of corpses and lost levels of experience or logged off.

You could loot an item from the player you defeated as long as it wasn't bound and take their coin as well.

Eve online:

Train for ages, spend all your hard earned money to build a ship and lose it while warping into a pirate laden trap. Oh, and have them ransom the rest of your money from the bank or have your pod destroyed and lose all your implants! Even worse, players would sometimes take the ransom money and still destroy your pod!

Just two examples of hardcore MMOs!

You kids think you had it tough because you had to run naked back to your corpse and you lost a little experience?!?!?!? I used to play on a MUD with permadeath and PvP everywhere. You could spend years building the perfect character, only to get ganked one night by a smart mob of players and lose EVERYTHING. Character dead, all equip taken by the mob that killed you. "Would you like to start again with a new character y/n?"

What is an mmo? Not this game.