Nightblade Update

vicNBitis · May 2014

Just in case anyone's forgotten.

Uppercut from stealth does more damage than Surprise Attack from stealth.

2H heavy attack from stealth does more damage than Surprise Attack from stealth. And adds area damage to packs.

Read it and weep:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/98003/1h-s-abilities-from-stealth-comparison-to-nb-dw-bow

So if you want to maximize a stealth build go 2H DK. You won't miss the siphoning until VR9. And by the time you see VR9 Zeni will probably have broken it anyways.

Deathztalker · May 2014

Something to think about, why do you play a NB? Do you play a NB because you liked them in past games? Do you like NB because you see the cool looking NB with a bow everywhere? Do you play a NB because you enjoy playing physical DSP and you thought that the NB would best suited to that roll? Are you playing a NB because you enjoy the harder game play?

Right now high level raid groups are not accepting NB DSP so you’re not playing a NB because you want to do end game content.

frwinters_ESO · May 2014

Well i play a NB because i like the class abilities the best for PvP, and I do more PvP so i do not worry about end game content. If i delve into raids I have a large guild who will not turn me away for being a NB.

NordJitsu · May 2014

frwinters_ESO wrote: »

Well i play a NB because i like the class abilities the best for PvP, and I do more PvP so i do not worry about end game content. If i delve into raids I have a large guild who will not turn me away for being a NB.

NBs are fine in PvP for the most part, when they work.

The problem with a lot of NBs is they go melee. Melee sucks against most PvE bosses because they all seem to do the most damage up close.

There need to be some bosses in the game that punish range.

methjester · May 2014

Deathztalker wrote: »

Something to think about, why do you play a NB? Do you play a NB because you liked them in past games? Do you like NB because you see the cool looking NB with a bow everywhere? Do you play a NB because you enjoy playing physical DSP and you thought that the NB would best suited to that roll? Are you playing a NB because you enjoy the harder game play?

Right now high level raid groups are not accepting NB DSP so you’re not playing a NB because you want to do end game content.

First, there really isn't "high end content" I'm not missing out. Second, leveling was so awful I'm not rerolling. I'll play something else before I reroll.

I picked a nighblade cause it sounded OK and I had no idea a game company would release a class that was 50% bugged and broken.

F7sus4 · May 2014

lindsie85b16_ESO wrote: »

It's not like this is 2004, we deserve better by now. ZOS should know better.

It's the same talk every single MMO. "They should have know". They should, but they didn't, so it sucks, and we suck and it's not good for me too, so clap your hands, start the dance.

F7sus4 · May 2014

Deathztalker wrote: »

Something to think about, why do you play a NB?

Speaking for myself, starting from 1st edition of AD&D really long time ago I have always played stealthy elven characters. Doesn't matter whether it was Daggerfall, Baldur's Gate or contemporary games. My taste didn't change over time, it reached out. Nightblade seemed like a natural choice. If I knew the mechanic would suck so badly, I'd roll Sorcerer instead (which seemed to straightforward to me). My bad.

Deathztalker wrote: »

Are you playing a NB because you enjoy the harder game play?

There is huge difference between hard gameplay and being average no matter how much skill you have.

Ilterendi · May 2014

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Like other people have stated, Nightblades aren't weak..They have a few bugged abilities (same with other classes, but then again thanks to the crappy tooltips in this game, you never know what is actually bugged and what is not)

What is weak are Stamina Builds, which most Nightblades end up going...

The only good Stamina Build was the Bash Build, the rest are complete crap compared to Magicka Builds.

Until ZoS improves Stamina Builds, most NB's will complain they're weak.

I agree, but only to a point. Surprise attack / Concealed strike SHOULD be a Nightblade's heaviest hitter coming out of stealth sans ultimate attacks. Currently that's not the case. A number of 2h abilities hit much harder from stealth... Now I'm all about playing the way you want, but I didn't roll a Nightblade to wield a stick and use mostly spells (mostly spamming pulsar or etc). Medium armor needs an overhaul. DW needs an overhaul. Nightblades need fixes and an in depth audit of abilities. Why doesn't any class's passives work as synergistically as DKs? Sorcerer comes close, but their pets are mostly useless and always laughable. Every "High dps build" features light armor and staves, pathetic mechanics when the games moto is all about playing the way you want...

/respectfullyendrant

DivZero · May 2014

fix the bugs, add a deals x% more damage when hitting from behind, +x% damage when stealth to class passives and maybe a small chance on shadow cloak/morphs to stay invisible on attacks for some seconds, and the "real" nightblade archetype should be able to keep up with DKs/Sorc

shiva7663 · May 2014

Too bad we can't duel PUG leaders who kick us from groups for being Nightblades.

Sparky617 · May 2014

Deathztalker wrote: »

Something to think about, why do you play a NB? Do you play a NB because you liked them in past games? Do you like NB because you see the cool looking NB with a bow everywhere? Do you play a NB because you enjoy playing physical DSP and you thought that the NB would best suited to that roll? Are you playing a NB because you enjoy the harder game play?

Right now high level raid groups are not accepting NB DSP so you’re not playing a NB because you want to do end game content.

I play NB because I enjoy the play style. I am using Restoration and Destruction staves. Granted I'm more of a soloist and have felt the sting of some broken abilities I'm still going to play it, and when it gets fixed it will just be awesome.

born2beagator · May 2014

I play the nightblade because I thought it would be an awesome dual wield, bow class. Unfortunately stamina based builds aren't viable in vet.

...but you can "play how you want to!"

yeah right

Buurz · May 2014

Gern_Verkheart wrote: »

I made a thread about this, but I though I should post it here as well:

The real problem with NB's is not their class (although that has some kinks in it), their class abilities are great, and deliver amazing single target DPS, but that right there is the problem: those are their class abilities, which means they use magicka.

The problem with NB's is the same problem with every other class: medium armor and melee weapon attacks are down right terrible.

You will never achieve good sustainable DPS with a stamina based build on any class, and your survive-ability in soloing veteran content is next to nill, because there is no stamina based AOE Crowd Control ability, and AOE CC is absolutely necessary in veteran content. Also, stamina based AOE damage abilities are all very weak, and high AOE damage is absolutely necessary in veteran group content.

If Zenimax fixes medium armor and melee weapon skills, they will have fixed the Nightblade class.

Medium armor needs to have some means of reducing the magicka cost of class abilities. This would help stamina based builds in that they can use their CC's and class based survival abilities, but will still prohibit these abilities from having the raw power of a full magicka based build, thus achieving more balance.

There needs to be stamina based AOE CC. This should have been in the fighters guild tree, similar to how the mage guild tree has one of the best AOE CC abilities in the game. It seems to me like it would have been a no brainer to give the fighter's guild a stamina based counterpart.

Lastly: stamina based AOE damage attacks ("cleave," "whirling blades," "bombard") need to be buffed. Plain and simple.

I completely agree with this - there are quite a few broken and probably few underpowered skills in NB skill tree, but the main issue is that NBs, more than any other class, try to do melee DPS which is gimp. Even if ZOS added NB passive which give 50% additional damage to everything, melee NBs would probably still be only mediocre DPS (in PVE at least).

I just don't see anything that will change this short/medium term, so if you want to be competitive in end-game PVE, respec out DW/Bow.

Edit: And to make things even worse, quite a few Trials bosses are timed DPS races where no tactics will help unless everyone has very high DPS. I think this is something that ZOS majorly screwed up as it doesn't leave much space for alternatives.

colonel_schmeevin · May 2014

There are a lot of fixes that need to be implemented. So ppl saying "the class isn't broken it's the passives/armor/stamina" or vice versa, it really all needs looked at. I've been playing an NB since early access and I've had animations that get stuck, passives that don't work, weapon skills that fail to work, class skills that either make the sound effect but don't actually happen or it happens twice back to back. I've been through the bugs of not being able to attack after using flurry. This class has been riddled since day one and even before. So to say there is one fix isn't really true. We obviously need better stamina based attacks. We're stamina driven to get max weapon power/damage. Yet we're forced to have a ton of magicka for class skills. So we need better magicka recovery if they intend to keep it that way. We're a rogue class so technically we shouldn't have AoE. So I'm fine with not having any but they need to increase our single target DPS so that we can take out a mob as quick as a sorc/DK doing AoE. There is a lot of work to be done on this class and they have a lot of ways they could take it. I get that they want us to group together but as of right now, we don't add much to a group and when other classes can solo but Templars and NBs can't, there's an obvious problem. NBs almost need a passive that kicks in after the first kill (I think we all agree that we can take down the first target easily) where your weapon damage boosts by a certain % for so many seconds after the kill. And if u get another kill it resets the timer and continues until it times out. Cuz pretty much we have a couple decent (but by no means the best) openers to drastically injure and stun but then we have to use a skill or two more (or a couple heavy attacks) to finish the first enemy. By that time, the typical mob of three has already hit with 3-4 attacks and you're down to half health. Maybe make cloaked+surprise attack stun nearby enemies for a couple seconds as well...for no reason really but we need something.

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2014

I think their very thought process while designing classes was wrong. Seems it went something like: lets give each class 3 skill lines and throw cool random skills in them - the players will then mix and match to make fun builds. Dont really need to do much more as the players will come up with crazy combos themselves.

What they should have done was design the classes to have 3-4 archetypes already build into the lines, with working synergies and skills that support the playstyles effectively. Whatever players came up with would be a bonus on top of that but those basic builds should be there to fall back on - balanced to be equally effective between classes.

F7sus4 · May 2014

shiva7663 wrote: »

Too bad we can't duel PUG leaders who kick us from groups for being Nightblades.

Last day I've seen NightbladesUnite (or what they were called) guild. They spammed their motto around: "They don't want you in their group? We do! Join us!" etc. This proves how far did NB's "unwantedness" go.

colonel_schmeevin wrote: »

By that time, the typical mob of three has already hit you with 3-4 attacks and you're down to half health.

At level 30, perhaps. At VR10+ you get 1 shot from 2 mobs and you're lying on the ground dead and rotting in the sun.

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

So, yeah, even though I've been patiently awaiting the lackluster fixes in build 1.1.2 and defending your Dev Team and encouraging patience among the community, the rumor that we may not see any -real- fixes until 1.2 is disappointing. Really disappointing.

And as long mediocre players will pop-out claiming there is no problem with NB (obviosly, they don't know what they're talking) it will be disappointing, since ZOS will assume that everything is OK won't do anything. Reducing lag, responsiveness, restoring "dead" abilities/passives is not all that we need.

tsvetan.dimitrov76cub18_ESO · May 2014

DovahkiinWolf wrote: »

I'm a VR2 NB and its hard for me to go through dungeons without preplanning and strategy. One thing I really dislike is that as soon as you make your first hit you are detected. I liked it better in Oblivion and Skyrim where you stayed hidden until they actually got too close and actually spotted you. But no, one hit and your character stands up like hey here I am. I'm lucky if I can take on 3VR2 monsters at once. And the bosses are difficult alone. I play with a bow and dual wield. 18 in Magic and Health, 13 in Stamina. Magnum shot, shadowy disguise, swallow soul, degeneration, and Ambush for my bow. Blinding Flurry, Shadowy Disguise, Swallow Soul, Surprise Attack, and whirling blades for my dual wield. Anyone know a better build?

For bosses that are not immune to CC try using Shadowy Disguise, Surprise Attack and Syphoning/Leaching Strikes activated for permanent stunlock

Zabus · May 2014

Fix shadowy disguise bugging out stealth passive please.

Zaxq · May 2014

Aoifesan wrote: »

Asasin wrote: »

Soooo...
I'm a level 18 Nightblade, enjoying it, but I've read that as an end-game PVP and end-game content, it's the weakest of the four.
I've also been reading that with the release of this last update, it's become even weaker.

What are your guys' takes on it? Should I reroll something else?

That would be a no. If you have a brain you'll figure out how to make a night blade viable at all levels.

There are a lot of stuck inside the box non-thinkers playing night blades at the moment.

The problem isnt being able to kill things thoughout the Vet Levels, since any of the four classes is able to solo their way through the quests fairly easily (I have levelled a v10 Bow NB and a v8 Temp Healer).

The problem with NB is that they are terrible at dungeon group DPS, and not that useful in group PvP compared to Sorc/DK. Why would you take a NB when both of those classes not only does the same or (usually) greater DPS (given equal player skill) but also brings a LOT more utility and better synergies in the class abilities and passives.

NB are actually good at small scale PvP - but we need something to allow us to re-stealth faster after a kill. At the minute the detect time is mental - the zerg train will fairly frequently turn up and destroy you up to 20s after finishing someone off.

You also wont be abusing Dark cloak, or spamming single target junk in decent group content runs. And thats all NBs bring. Everything else is done 2-3x better by other classes.

The weapon skills are irrelevant since they can be used by any of the 4 classes.

NB ultimates are all garbage in comparison. 90% of the NB passives/actives are either garbage (compared to DK/Sorc) or dont actually work. The only one i can think of that is decent is Impale - but thats conditional on the mob being on or below 20-25% HP.

So, yeah, you can roll a NB and level to v12 easily enough. You can happily kill packs of 3-6 mobs depending on your spec.

For all the end-game content no-one will take you (except guild groups and desperate pugs). Thats what the problem is.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO · May 2014

The problem with balance is that it can get out of hand really quickly, and depending on what you change the whole game is affected. Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to see changes to NB's so I can finally get a group for trials, but it's pretty rough.

On the other hand, I have yet to see someone matching up to a NB in PvP. I have one shotted people, taken on just about every class in a 1v1 or even a 2v

During defense, dropping down walls to their back lines, killing the siege guys and burning sieges...mmm nothing feels better.

What I'm saying is they have to really be careful in class balance. What may be fine in pve might not be fine in pvp.

With that said, what they need to think about is whether they want to make magicka the 'main' source of dps and leave stamina to utility (breaking out of CC, rolling, sprinting), or whether they want to make stamina based dps a thing too. Depending on which they are trying to do will drastically change things. If they want every class to stick with magicka, then medium armor may need some changes (like providing benefits to the magicka area).

Axewaffle · May 2014

nightblades are fine In pve, you want at least one in your group for the insane 30% mitigation with 100% uptime for your tank (plus another 15% from shades which is confirmed to work on many key boss fights), in addition to having the best execute damage per second in the game (yes more than mages), and decent enough dps for the rest of the fights that doesnt deminish with mobility (they can acheive the same dps runing circles around the boss if they want to).

With the new buffs comming in a few days, I expect to see our dps regularly go above 1k without breaking a sweat (with propper potion usage)

khele23eb17_ESO · May 2014

Axewaffle wrote: »

With the new buffs comming in a few days, I expect to see our dps regularly go above 1k without breaking a sweat (with propper potion usage)

What buffs? The only thing id consider a buff is VoB being able to crit and thats more of a fix really.

Aziz006 · May 2014

I feel like this game is in beta and we are testers. I will join back when "actual" game released.

the.dzeneralb16_ESO · May 2014

Axewaffle wrote: »

nightblades are fine In pve, you want at least one in your group for the insane 30% mitigation with 100% uptime for your tank (plus another 15% from shades which is confirmed to work on many key boss fights), in addition to having the best execute damage per second in the game (yes more than mages), and decent enough dps for the rest of the fights that doesnt deminish with mobility (they can acheive the same dps runing circles around the boss if they want to).

With the new buffs comming in a few days, I expect to see our dps regularly go above 1k without breaking a sweat (with propper potion usage)

Oh, they're obviously fine... which is why all groups in the trials love having NB in the- Oh wait, it's the opposite. NB's (I hear templars as well) are being excluded entirely from trials. It's not just a particular build, it's all NB's basically.

Axewaffle · May 2014

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Axewaffle wrote: »

With the new buffs comming in a few days, I expect to see our dps regularly go above 1k without breaking a sweat (with propper potion usage)

What buffs? The only thing id consider a buff is VoB being able to crit and thats more of a fix really.

VoB being able to crit is massive, it does insane damage already, with it able to crit (with most endgame builds running 60%+ crit chance) you are looking at a massive damage increase on an already strong ability. - Thats huge news.

The +30% potion buff is monumental. When running spellcrit/power potions the damage increase will add up... ALOT. Think past healing potions people, the best potions to use are the damage increasing ones.

Also there is a fluff buff to path... which could be good or bad.

Erlindur · May 2014

Axewaffle wrote: »

The +30% potion buff is monumental. When running spellcrit/power potions the damage increase will add up... ALOT. Think past healing potions people, the best potions to use are the damage increasing ones.

I just wonder...

A DK, a sorc and a NB walk into a bar. All three drink the same spellcrit/power potion. Who has the biggest dps output?

Edit: I seriously wonder about it. Has anyone run any tests with the current catalyst?

Axewaffle · May 2014

Erlindur wrote: »

Axewaffle wrote: »

The +30% potion buff is monumental. When running spellcrit/power potions the damage increase will add up... ALOT. Think past healing potions people, the best potions to use are the damage increasing ones.

I just wonder...

A DK, a sorc and a NB walk into a bar. All three drink the same spellcrit/power potion. Who has the biggest dps output?

Edit: I seriously wonder about it. Has anyone run any tests with the current catalyst?

It will probebly be the same result it is now, NB behind dk and sorc. However these buffs will bring us close to sorc dps output, and maintain our group utility. This is a very positive step for nightblades in PvE. (keep in mind, NB execute dps out performs mage execute dps, with the potion buffs and newly added chance to crit, these execute numbers are set to rise further, granting NB a place in certain trial loadouts in the future a possibility)

F7sus4 · May 2014

Aziz006 wrote: »

I feel like this game is in beta and we are testers. I will join back when "actual" game released.

Already said it - here.

Gern_Verkheart · May 2014

Aoifesan wrote: »

...If you have a brain you'll figure out how to make a night blade viable at all levels.

The problem is, that's going to involve wearing cloth and using class abilities almost exclusively. Medium armor and stamina based abilities are just not as viable as magicka based ones.

Cody · May 2014

Marius87 wrote: »

I dont know what you guys are smoking but i picked nightblade for pvp stealth killing. Then obviously you want kajjit for that . Having all those passives for reduce detection and increase crit strike and suck i can kill vr12 me beeing vr3 quite easy.

Actually 1v1 i can kill in cyrodiil 90 percent of the people i meet no kidding. There are alot of bad people even dk who just *** their pants when you come out of stealth and they are at 40 % health after 2 sec.

The nightblade is very bad for dungeons and i died 20 times trying to kill a boss with 4 npcs next to him. But thats life im pretty sure 1v1 no dk or sorcerer can surprise me when i can just pop dark clock and walk away. I once killed a group of 4 people for 30 min straith in a town.

Tell me what Other class can do that? NONE

Do you even know why you choose your class?

I am one of the worst players in PvP, and iv won a lot of 1v1s with a NB. its not hard, just get the first stealth hit, fight, go invisible eveyr few seconds, coricle around, strike, rinse and repeat. You will even be bale to stand up t a V12 at level 10 doing this. but straight up fights, with out spamming cloak? the NB is f****. its seriously underpowered I myself have switched to a DK and a sorc because of how UP the NB is. half its abilities odnt work, and its damage is crap compared to other classes. not only that, but the NB gets no stealth bonuses? wth? the NB should be BETTER AT sneaking than the other classes. The fact that a heavily armored DK can sneak just as well as a medium armored class, who's main skill is SUPPOSED to be stealth, is sad.