Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

What's your point?

Axer wrote: »

You actually are not dodging anything like what you showed in the video. You can't. The attacks are too fast, and the dodge is too slow/no invuln frames. You are pre-empting them. It's not the same thing.

Due to unfixable/unmitigatable nature of online games, some degree of give needs to be allowed. The give should be invulnerbility frame,s to take into account the fact by the time that shuriken/arrow/etc shows up on your screne, it's actually already hit you on the server.

And I found the specific enemy you did this on and tested extensively. You simply can't "DODGE" that shuriken. Not doable with my latency anyways. Not by any real human. Also counter intuivively - that forward dodge roll you performed is the most effect one. Realisticly you'd expect going to the side would work well? But no, the homing reacts better to the side to side movement, then the verticle, so you still almost always get hit.

You can certainly pre-empt it. Sure. Learn the paterns, react before it happens.
But if you actaully dodge perfectly as a REACTION (to the attack itself, not the patern). You still get hit.

Thats poor.

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

This is the same as saying that the block is too easy to use.

In this game, dodge Cost a resource used for active abilities, as well as a block, but the block is not spending stamina when activated, only on successful fending off an attack.

If reflecting heavy attack success, the target takes unbalanced status.

Block cost can be reduced.

And I like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage.

Because only then will dodge would make sense.

DARK CLOAK IV
Gives player invisibility for 2.5 seconds and removes 4 damage over time effect.

SHADOW BARRIER (passive ability)
Increases Armor and Spell Resistance when coming out of stealth or invisibility.

adesanawa wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I don't like the idea of dodge making you immune to damage. Having played GW2 a lot, invincibility frames just makes some encounters way too easy sometimes.

Well with Talons, Bolt escape, stunlocks and other crazy skills being used all the time, difficulty is never much of a problem outside instanced situations IMO. .

And that's why you shouldn't give a tool, wich basicaly everyone can use, that renders every other available defensive skills subpar. Because if you do that, you get in the same situation as GW2 where almost every defensive utility are not needed because dodge already gives enough mitigation to avoid ennemies attack spikes.

adesanawa wrote: »

And it's not like dodging is easy. Take TERA online for example. I don't know what's it like in GW2, but in that game dodge too fast or too slow and you'll be dead in one hit from the super attacks. (similar to the cue'd attack here).
So it's either you risk it by dodging at the right time and be rewarded if u succeed or get the hell out of the attack range with no risk, but you have to run back to the enemy. So basically you need to know when to dodge, it's not an insta invincibility button, similar how you do timed block here. .

Attacks in this game don't work the way it works like in TERA or GW2. In both of those game there is an actual collision on every attack. If someone goes in front of a projectile he can intercept it because the physics allow them to do it.

In TESO its quite the opposite, you have a hit check and everything done to you is instant, it doesn't look like that because the game actualy delays the proportion of the damage done to your healthpool UI until the animation hits your character. But if you are supposed to take a killing blow and this one is delayed, like I told you before, you will notice you won't be able to use any heals inbetween to save yourself while the projectile travels to deliver its killing blow, because true damage is applied before it is showed on your UI.

adesanawa wrote: »

Actually now I'm starting to see where the problem lies. Despite being a dynamic fight, ESO still retain some of the old targeted attacks. The easiest example would be bows and magical projectiles, those things home on you!
Even melee attacks does this to an extent. I've tried to dodge power attacks by rolling away from the mobs, but somehow they always hit me despite the distance I covered. It's always better to block melee attacks it seems.

So this is why I think invincible dodge is more suitable for this game.

They only hit you because you dodge after the hitcheck wich is done when the attack animation starts (not after). If you dodge during the cast time or right before an instant attack animation starts you will actualy be able dodge the blow.

Also if you put some form of invulnerability buff, the only major difference will be the fact you'll be able to soak damage from every possible attack wich are, right now, limited to the Melee and Projectiles category but that wouldn't change the fact you'll still be forced to use it preventively to avoid beeing damaged.

adesanawa wrote: »

If ESO has a real dynamic attacks like TERA does (where enemy attacks don't home in on you), then I don't mind the current dodge, since getting from front to back of the enemies actually does something. It would feel like Monster Hunter, which is a great example for this.

It doesn't, so you actualy need a buff like dodge, wich cause your ennemies to have a 100% chance to miss their melee and projectile hit checks. Otherwise you'll just get other issues with DoT abilities not doing damage while dodging and crowd controls affecting you trough dodge unless you complicate the stuff and add yet another effect on top of the damage soaking component of your invulnerability.

That's why I firmly believe dodge is fine the way it is right now.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

I am just a simple Russian guy who has spent over 10 years in the MMO.

Have two veteran character in the TESO

Went through almost all veterans of the dungeon.

And the only time I used the dodge, was in PvP.
To get the speed bonus from the last passive abilities of bow.

Because even to get out of the red zone, more efficient use sprint.

In GV2 on WvW, together with six players, we attacked twice larger groups of enemies.
And won.
Because Dodge was effective.
And advantage would not on the side of those who has more people.
But who knew how to play.

99% of people in this thread have written about what dodge useless.
I'm sorry but you're a minority.

And about the video, if you want to prove something, then show where dodge real benefits to use, In a serious fight.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]

Dodge works.


The problem is that unlike block it has no priority so you can be finishing an animation and dodge won't interrupt it when you actually need to dodge.

Dodge needs to have priority over ALL actions.

Axer wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I happen to use dodge roll in many situation with my Sorcerer, a guy ready to throw a knife while the other tries to overpower you? Not a problem you roll to the guy throwing the knife and you save precious health and stamina for doing so!

I only have some issues in dongeons with AoEs, sometimes, because I need to dodge out of it as fast as possible but I get locked in animations wich prevents me from dodging out of it.

Finaly, beeing able to dodge roll around your foes back like Link feels super epic!

Guessing your referring 100% to pvp.

You guys really need to preface your posts about that.

Because no. You plain and simply CANNOT dodge roll the guy who tosses a knife at you. Knives in pve are HEAT SEEKING. Not even the most perfect dodge roll will have any impact on their damage. They always hit you.
.

What the hell are you talking about? I can dodge roll from projectiles easily. yeah they heat seek you in every other way (even when out of line of sight ) except when you dodge roll.

I can do this reliably on everything from monsters to even bosses.

the only problem I see with dodge is that it can use more invincibility frames. during the animation.

Axer wrote: »

reagen_lionel wrote: »

Axer wrote: »

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

I happen to use dodge roll in many situation with my Sorcerer, a guy ready to throw a knife while the other tries to overpower you? Not a problem you roll to the guy throwing the knife and you save precious health and stamina for doing so!

I only have some issues in dongeons with AoEs, sometimes, because I need to dodge out of it as fast as possible but I get locked in animations wich prevents me from dodging out of it.

Finaly, beeing able to dodge roll around your foes back like Link feels super epic!

Guessing your referring 100% to pvp.

You guys really need to preface your posts about that.

Because no. You plain and simply CANNOT dodge roll the guy who tosses a knife at you. Knives in pve are HEAT SEEKING. Not even the most perfect dodge roll will have any impact on their damage. They always hit you.
.

What the hell are you talking about? I can dodge roll from projectiles easily. yeah they heat seek you in every other way (even when out of line of sight ) except when you dodge roll.

I can do this reliably on everything from monsters to even bosses.

the only problem I see with dodge is that it can use more invincibility frames. during the animation.

No you cant.

You can only pre empt such attacks. Actaully dodging based on seeing the thing come at you is impossible.

And it currently has zero invuln frames, so yes a few would go a long way.

You can dodge incoming projectiles from visual cue. I've done it on the spider boss in every attack. If you're in melee range, you wont have enough room to even do it, cause of the travel time. If you have enough room to charge, you definitly have enough room to dodge it.

I've had projectiles at the half way point to hitting me, dodge and it actually went on by and I took no damage. I can do this reliably every single time now. No prediction at all. It can already be in flight and I can dodge roll if I have the stamina and it will miss.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Roll dodge will at least mage standard ranged attacks miss you... but not melee attacks.

I still think it costs too much stamina.

It is actualy possible to dodge those. But I agree, melee is definitly more tricky to dodge. You can still avoid beeing hit by melee hits (even AoEs categorised as Melee) but it requieres you know your ennemy attack patern and dodge preventively before you even got attacked.

For the stamina cost, I think it is ok, most of the melee builds do usualy not have great stamina spenders (or situational at best) and can spare a couple of dodge between their normal cycle of attacks (especialy DW with their low stamina cost skills). Sword&Board relies more on blocking sinds it has the reduced cost to it, and Magicka based builds usualy don't need Stamina spenders sinds their damage output comes exclusively out of their magicka, so they might only be able to dodge a couple of times but they also don' t use it for anything else.

I think there's an issue of clarity regarding attack recognition. (ex. projectile activation vs. flight time vs. damage resolution)

I think bosses' and mob ranged AOEs appear to further confuse things because the damage resolution is mechanically different. Player ranged AOEs must be activated with an action (then placed) then triggered with another action, then damage is resolved.

It is possible the AI version consolidates the steps. (reticle is placed and triggered simultaneously) Throw in animation and hang time as variables and it gets puzzling.