Nightblade Update
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One Two✭✭Morticielle wrote: »
First, this is a total exaggeration. A sorcerer usually can not kill 10 mobs at a time. Second, here is written, that every class has to have the exact same abilities? If you want that, then go play Rift, where every class has heals, damage, crowd control and buffs. Only stealth is atm reserved for rogue, but I am shure they will change that too in the future.I feel that nightblades are crap, compared to DK and Sorc, especially the AOE root, +AOE Impulse allows them to train 10 ! mobs in a dungeon, aoe them to death, where i struggle to kill 3 Mobs group, mostly i need to avoid them. This is not funny, when they kill 3x times faster, they level especially faster.
And once more: Where is written, that every class has to have the same abilities as others classes? The abilities of the nightblade were well known before release of this game, so if you decided to play a nightblade you had to be o.K. with those abilities or you didn't give it much thought and are now crying because of your mistake.The problem is: our AOE CC abiity is fear, which distributes mobs, where Sorc and DK can concentrate this mobs in one spot, also their CC ability does additional damage to the mobs, where our CC only occupies the mobs for a short duration, 4 seconds.
@ Zenimax: Don't make the mistake to make every class the same. It was a bad idea to give every class stealth (and I say that as a sorceror who loves to kill others players out of stealth), don't make more mistakes like that. Fix the broken abilities on NB and that's it.
Because they leveled up and earned their rank by killing players like yourself.Why do VR8 skeevers exist at all?
Edit: Corrected one typo.
[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]
ohh right stating that you don't do a single god damn thing about NBs and the game itself is trolling and baiting?
Glad i canceled my sub.Edited by One Two on May 28, 2014 1:33AM0 -
ThisOnePosts✭✭✭✭✭I am a max level NB now and I must say, you must be noobish at video games in general if by VR10, VR11, VR12 you haven't figured out how to make it work. My DPS is always the most effective WITH DW and Bow when running dungeons, group content, or even quickly taking out people in Cyrodiil. Does it need to be fixed still? YES. But they ALREADY acknowledged that and set our expectations as to what/when (1.2).
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Valerien✭✭✭I love it if the devs could come in and open up a discussion with the player base about the issues and what will be done to fix it.
As many others have said the nightblade seems to suffer from a design flaw. In that it doesn't do enough single target dps and therefore can't burn down NPCs quick enough to take on a group or a boss.
Before anyone posts videos of amazing Nightblade kills, it is possible to create a good single target NB. When attacking from stealth with the right combination of skills and ultimates up and the right choice of opponent you can in effect one shot them. And it is nice.
Problem is that the AI in the game is rather good, mobs move they look around and most hang out in groups, this makes stealth difficult. Many boss fights the boss is summoned and this means stealth is not an option and shadow is very hit and miss. In both of these occasions the NB ends up going toe to toe where they have very limited damage. And thats if you have even set your weapon swap to be optimal for group or boss fighting. And even then it really should be stressed the options are limited.
Even if a sneak attack comes off well that can often leave 2 mobs to fight without the benefit of stealth attacks. Where as the other classes have healing, tanking, summons to rely on to help with this the NB doesn't appear to have much.
Realistically Shades should be a tanking summon to give greater survivability and the damage has to be increased with less reliance on stealth attacks. Which while important as others have noted would have knock on effects in PvP if scaled up to fix the NB lack of any meaningful role.0 -
Tamanous✭✭✭✭✭
I do this with a Sword and Board Nightblade. Take three and four mobs and kill them all.
And you miss the entire point to this thread. The universal method for all classes to take on vet content is to become an aoe grinding tank. You did nothing less than do this. It is not the answer to the issue.
A pure dps build must become viable in this game to diversify the classes. DK does it best simply because the class is already a tank class. You solve absolutely nothing converting every single class into an aoe tank or aoe mage tank. THAT is the core issue.Edited by Tamanous on May 28, 2014 1:43AM6 -
makreth✭✭✭✭✭curlyqloub14_ESO wrote: »The problem is: our AOE CC abiity is fear, which distributes mobs, where Sorc and DK can concentrate this mobs in one spot, also their CC ability does additional damage to the mobs, where our CC only occupies the mobs for a short duration, 4 seconds.
Ya know, I'm surprised fear isn't being mentioned more. Personally, I haven't bought the skill, so maybe I am way off in my assumptions about how it works in ESO, but it seems pretty much totally useless.
In dungeons, tunnels and such are usually small tight areas, with the next group of mobs being so close - it seems like a lot of potential to fear a mob and have it go running right into the next group of mobs, triggering their social assist, and effectively training yourself when the fear breaks and you now have 3 or 4 coming back at you instead of just one.
In open world, even though the spaces may be more open, groups of mobs are still relatively close to each other in most cases, so still fear seems useless.
In group dungeons, fearing mobs would potentially send them out of the AoE range of any other players, while also running the risk of pulling more mobs with a social assist.
No matter how you slice it, fear just doesn't seem viable in, well, any situation really.
Or does fear not work that way? Does it just send them running in a tight little circle without ever coming close to other mobs?
Personally, if I am in desperate need to split a pack, I'll hit one with agony to take it out of commission for 12 secs while I down the other, and hope that 1) 12 secs is long enough, and 2) no other player happens to run by and damage my stunned mob and break it. Either way, Agony at least lasts 12 secs. Fear only lasts 4, which seems pretty much a joke.
So I guess what I wonder is, does anyone here really use fear at all? I kinda' wish they would just trash it completely and give us another more useful skill. Like a quality ranged AoE and/or stun.
I use Mass Hysteria (fear) and it's absolutely amazing in both PvE and PvP. It's a 30% power reduction, 52% snare and 4.5s fear that doesnt break on damage. Yes, mobs run away, but thats what I want. You can kill a group of 3 without being touched in PvE while burning them down from range. In PvP, it drains enemy Stamina since they break out of it, but I can just spam the skill. Eventually you will not have enough stamina to break out and Ill have 4.5s to burn you down. In mass raids, yeah not so great. In small scale battles, it's phenomenal. I wont take it off my bar now that I have it.
That power reduction is only 3 seconds long and you can't really spam fear on enemies who have used their cc breakout until their immunity goes off which is like 6 seconds I think.0 -
poodlemasterb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I'm learning how to play this game. It does not appear there are many like me.
I often realize I've been doing it wrong and it just makes me stronger. I profit greatly from this attitude and always am looking for better methods.
Did ya see the vid with the NB destroying the unbeatable monster just by invising behind him over and over then dealing power attacks while behind. So simple.
I have gotten killed 3 times in a row with my NB, gave my head a shake went back in and smoked it with zero damage.
Still my son loves NBs while I prefer Sorcs. How do I know? I try em' all to see what I like. 110 levels across 7 chars with 4 fighters. I have learned fighting from the crafters as well, as you have to level them for SP, as well as hunt Sky Shards and they are not speced like my fighters as I need the SP for, well, crafting.
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Dayel✭✭✭Could someone tell me when the nightblade problems kick in? I am still fairly low level but I have had no problem progressing quite happily, and since I am a fair player at best, it seem a bit strange to me.2 -
One Two✭✭Why does the NB shadow atk Surprise atks and the impale from assassin tree go off of melee crit? It doesn't benefit at all from weapon damage, or stamina.
Spell dmg, Magica and melee crit...da ***?
DKs and Sorc and Templar (the only 3 other classes) work off of Spell crit, there are tons of great sets for that, even one with +20% in combat regen.
Yet we only have one set available...that adds +5% at 5/5 to our melee crit.
Who designed this class?
This game is all about AOE.
PvP is all about AoE
PvE is all about AoE
Single target DPS is only good for bosses, the rest of the way its IMPULSE SPAM! and even then DKs and Sorc makes us look sluggish and weak.
You say take 20K worth of pots with you (100 potions)...yeah give those bots to a DK and he will hit 900 DPS on single target, give them to us and we do 700.
good stuff.
This game will not change, it's a ZOS vision to have AoE tanks spamming their way to glory.
Wildstar looks a lot better in terms of game play, rubbish at quests, since it's just another grind to level 50, but it sure beats ESO on many other levels, such as endgame, PvP, functionality, communication with the devs.
And the developers actually do communicate within the forums, the DEVELOPERS
shocking i know...
Once WoW releases its expansion, more ppl will leave.
And by then...the NB will still be a broken, nonperforming broken class.2 -
One Two✭✭shayafb14_ESO wrote: »Could someone tell me when the nightblade problems kick in? I am still fairly low level but I have had no problem progressing quite happily, and since I am a fair player at best, it seem a bit strange to me.
Level 1 to 50 is a tutorial pal, when u reach vr3 to 12..that's when the real fun begins.
you wont notice until you get kicked for low dps, download FTC from tamrielfoundry to check your dps.
anything below 400 is deemed an acceptable kick from the group.0 -
Ser Lobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Ruze Aulus. Mayor of Dhalmora. Archer, hunter, assassin. Nightblade.
Gral. Mountain Terror. Barbarian, marauder, murderer. Nightblade.
Na'Djin. Knight-Blade. Knight, vanguard, defender. Nightblade.
XBOX NARuze is a veteran of the PC Beta, lived through the year one drought, survived the buy-to-play conversion, and has stepped foot in the hells known as Craglorn. He mained a nightlbade when nightblades weren't good, and has never worn a robe. He converted from PC during the console betas, and hasn't regretted it a moment since.
He'd rank ESO:TU (in it's current state) a 4.8 out of 5, loving the game almost entirely.
This is an multiplayer game. I should be able to log in, join a dungeon, join a battleground, queue for a dolmen or world boss or delve, teleport in, play for 20 minutes, and not worry about getting kicked, failing to join, having perfect voice coms, or being unable to complete content because someone's lagging behind. Group Finder and matchmaking is broken. Take a note from Destiny and build a system that allows from drop-in/drop-out functionality and quick play.2 -
fyrefenix✭✭✭i am happy night blade is getting attention. and i hope they get it worked out.
please remember the double nerfed templars as well after night blades we need our class of templars taken care of.Natjur ✭✭✭
4:24PM
There is currently only two classes in this game, DK and Sorcs.
Templar's and NB are just 'extras' that have not been removed yet.0 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭i am happy night blade is getting attention. and i hope they get it worked out.
please remember the double nerfed templars as well after night blades we need our class of templars taken care of.
They are stringing you along so you pay your subscription. Like they did pre-1.12 patch. They'll do it again next month. Watch and see.
Nightblade is the designated gimp class or they can't figure out how to solve it yet. I know which explanation I'd pick.1 -
I'm not sure what role in PvE you refer too since the nightblade isnt needed anywhere...What would be a better alternative, at least in my mind? Follow real life. Snipers for example, exist and they are really deadly. What you did was taking their rifles away. Well, that is effective but not really fun in a game. In real life, a sniper's worst enemy is another sniper. Introduce ways to track and detect people in stealth. Mage light was the first step. Why not some general stealth detection passives in the pvp trees? Why not some track stealth passives somewhere in the NB lines? Make the NB, NB's worst enemy in pvp. Sure you would had some people one shotted, but you would probably ended up with NBs too busy hunting each other all over the map (and having lots of fun) to really bother with other classes. Would you risk taking down a sole player if you are tracking another NB or maybe have one on your tail?
No broken pve class, NBs have their role in a group, happy pvpers and a new role as scout for pvp groups.
Yes, a nightblade SHOULD be a nightblades worst enemy and a passive skill to see all enemy stealthers in a certain range would do that... But it would also make the class needlessly strong in PvP and cause endless complaints when they're fighting other classes they see in stealth (it would be "unfair", of course). I think that you inadvertedly stumbled on the flaw in the skill system - not enough active class skills on the skillbar because there's simply not enough space for it.
An activated ability in the style of magelight but specialized for the nightblade (nightlight, hehehe) would be much better and easier to balance. But it still require more damn skill slots. Adding more fun class skills would only end up crippling classes instead because you'll always throw something else that's needed away. So we're left with adding more passives and tbh... its not going to work out well.
Seems like ZOS dug their own grave with the limited skill system.1 -
Harakh✭✭✭The should give blur or some other useless skill the bonus see stealthed enemies on top of the useless 15% miss chance.Edited by Harakh on May 28, 2014 6:49AMDie Welt in einem Sandkorn sehen
Und den Himmel in einer wilden Blume;
Die Unendlichkeit in der Handfläche halten
Und die Ewigkeit in einer Stunde.1 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭I'm not pointing out how anyone should play, I just have to say there are some conceptual errors in some comments.
NB have always been casters in the elder scrolls universe. Always. If you are actually trying to make it work your way as a melee, not a problem at all, but they are not rogues.
The medium armor stubborn issues is unacceptable. Yes, sure, you want to play with the worst armor in the game. Go for it. But be aware you are choosing the worst armor. Period.
This topic should be for discussing NB skills and not dw/medium armor. It is fair to ask for buffs in weapon skills and medium armor, I'll give you that, but it is not class related, so please keep NB class out of it.
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Regarding NB skills, all we need in my opinion is a better damage out of stealth (or for skills used while you are under shadow effect during combat, that would make sense). I'd say a buff in 30-40% would solve it. It will not make you one-shot people and you'll get a more decent dps.Edited by OkieDokie on May 28, 2014 6:55AMPeople keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.3 -
glitchmaster999✭✭✭✭I'm not pointing out how anyone should play, I just have to say there are some conceptual errors in some comments.
NB have always been casters in the elder scrolls universe. Always. If you are actually trying to make it work your way as a melee, not a problem at all, but they are not rogues.
The medium armor stubborn issues is unacceptable. Yes, sure, you want to play with the worst armor in the game. Go for it. But be aware you are choosing the worst armor. Period.
This topic should be for discussing NB skills and not dw/medium armor. It is fair to ask for buffs in weapon skills and medium armor, I'll give you that, but it is not class related, so please keep NB class out of it.
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Regarding NB skills, all we need in my opinion is a better damage out of stealth (or for skills used while you are under shadow effect during combat, that would make sense). I'd say a buff in 30-40% would solve it. It will not make you one-shot people and you'll get a more decent dps.
Ooooh that was wrong on pretty much every level....sneak attacking has always been built for weapon. Remember x32 with daggers and x2 with spells. Sure they use some spells but that doesnt make them a mage.. and if they were, there is literally not one weapon based class. If that is true, I think me hanging onto this game is the worst idea. You dont take single player game, put it online and remove half of the builds ie. Weapons...
Welcome to elder sorcs online
Also medium armor isnt the worst. It is only underused because most people go mages. The majority of nightblade spells are weapon critical which completelly negates your first point again...If anything I would say heavy armor is the worst. What kind of MMO says "no if you want to be good, use this stick and this spell or else go be cannon fodder"... not a very good one..Edited by glitchmaster999 on May 28, 2014 7:13AM2 -
AKSb16_ESO2✭✭✭curlyqloub14_ESO wrote: »
Or does fear not work that way? Does it just send them running in a tight little circle without ever coming close to other mobs?
This.
Feared mobs never pulled other mobs when running to the next group. Luckily mobs in TESO are no Murlocs. 0 -
OkieDokie✭✭✭glitchmaster999 wrote: »I'm not pointing out how anyone should play, I just have to say there are some conceptual errors in some comments.
NB have always been casters in the elder scrolls universe. Always. If you are actually trying to make it work your way as a melee, not a problem at all, but they are not rogues.
The medium armor stubborn issues is unacceptable. Yes, sure, you want to play with the worst armor in the game. Go for it. But be aware you are choosing the worst armor. Period.
This topic should be for discussing NB skills and not dw/medium armor. It is fair to ask for buffs in weapon skills and medium armor, I'll give you that, but it is not class related, so please keep NB class out of it.
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Regarding NB skills, all we need in my opinion is a better damage out of stealth (or for skills used while you are under shadow effect during combat, that would make sense). I'd say a buff in 30-40% would solve it. It will not make you one-shot people and you'll get a more decent dps.
Ooooh that was wrong on pretty much every level....sneak attacking has always been built for weapon. Remember x32 with daggers and x2 with spells. Sure they use some spells but that doesnt make them a mage.. and if they were, there is literally not one weapon based class. If that is true, I think me hanging onto this game is the worst idea. You dont take single player game, put it online and remove half of the builds ie. Weapons...
Welcome to elder sorcs online
Also medium armor isnt the worst. It is only underused because most people go mages. The majority of nightblade spells are weapon critical which completelly negates your first point again...If anything I would say heavy armor is the worst. What kind of MMO says "no if you want to be good, use this stick and this spell or else go be cannon fodder"... not a very good one..
Yeah, but in those scenarios (even if we didn't have a proper nightblade class in skyrim) they relied on destruction/alteration in oblivion and illusion (muffle, invisibility, fear, frenzy) in skyrim. Sure, you got pretty insane sneak attacks with weapon perks, but they have never been a proper melee class (it does not mean they are mages, just casters, I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself properly).
On top of that, in any MMO there is a set that will work better than others. There is no way you can get things that balanced. So, one of your options will be worst than others. In this game weapon skills are way behind, but what I'm saying is...this is not a class issue, just general game mechanics.People keep saying they heard of a friend of friend of friend of their neighbors that plays a NB and can catch up with dks and sorcs and this guy just never shows up. He would be a rock star if he existed.0 -
glitchmaster999✭✭✭✭glitchmaster999 wrote: »I'm not pointing out how anyone should play, I just have to say there are some conceptual errors in some comments.
NB have always been casters in the elder scrolls universe. Always. If you are actually trying to make it work your way as a melee, not a problem at all, but they are not rogues.
The medium armor stubborn issues is unacceptable. Yes, sure, you want to play with the worst armor in the game. Go for it. But be aware you are choosing the worst armor. Period.
This topic should be for discussing NB skills and not dw/medium armor. It is fair to ask for buffs in weapon skills and medium armor, I'll give you that, but it is not class related, so please keep NB class out of it.
----
Regarding NB skills, all we need in my opinion is a better damage out of stealth (or for skills used while you are under shadow effect during combat, that would make sense). I'd say a buff in 30-40% would solve it. It will not make you one-shot people and you'll get a more decent dps.
Ooooh that was wrong on pretty much every level....sneak attacking has always been built for weapon. Remember x32 with daggers and x2 with spells. Sure they use some spells but that doesnt make them a mage.. and if they were, there is literally not one weapon based class. If that is true, I think me hanging onto this game is the worst idea. You dont take single player game, put it online and remove half of the builds ie. Weapons...
Welcome to elder sorcs online
Also medium armor isnt the worst. It is only underused because most people go mages. The majority of nightblade spells are weapon critical which completelly negates your first point again...If anything I would say heavy armor is the worst. What kind of MMO says "no if you want to be good, use this stick and this spell or else go be cannon fodder"... not a very good one..
Yeah, but in those scenarios (even if we didn't have a proper nightblade class in skyrim) they relied on destruction/alteration in oblivion and illusion (muffle, invisibility, fear, frenzy) in skyrim. Sure, you got pretty insane sneak attacks with weapon perks, but they have never been a proper melee class (it does not mean they are mages, just casters, I'm not sure if I'm expressing myself properly).
On top of that, in any MMO there is a set that will work better than others. There is no way you can get things that balanced. So, one of your options will be worst than others. In this game weapon skills are way behind, but what I'm saying is...this is not a class issue, just general game mechanics.
The class is still an issue though, in current state, even though stamina builds are sub par, a sorc dual weilding is more effective than a nightblade caster.1 -
Sangeet✭✭✭
This was not an exaggeration, it was a an observation from the night before, when i went to a public dungeon, were normal groups should do this content, but this lone DK did it alone, and he pulled two groups, i probably should have taken a video of it, but you can find them yourself if you search youtube for DK aoe farming as keywords.First, this is a total exaggeration. A sorcerer usually can not kill 10 mobs at a time. Second, here is written, that every class has to have the exact same abilities? If you want that, then go play Rift, where every class has heals, damage, crowd control and buffs. Only stealth is atm reserved for rogue, but I am shure they will change that too in the future.
Ok, let me google it for you:
[url="
http://"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09GA6SPsM7Q[/url]
I mentioned what the combination is, what makes the AOE + Root so good, and compared it to nightblade crowd control, which makes this impossible.
I would not say, that we should get the same ability's, but we could get a longer fear, than the 4 seconds, which is the current state.
Essentially i feel that i am inferior vs Sorc /DK, and a lot of players feel the same, the only guys in my guild who restarted a new main character were former nightblades.
[
Edited by Sangeet on May 28, 2014 8:24AM0 -
To take care of class which is underdog is good thing. Will improvements be effective - yes but not a great deal . Fact is that biggest problem NB's have is lack of group functionalities ( buffs , dam mitigation , stuns ). That is basic problem with NB. Improvements u suggested are more or less window dressing. You are not dealing with main issues NB's have. It is simple - people are expressing their discontent with how NB's do in comparison to other classes for 2 months. Long time ago u said u are working on NB's and that u have intention to improve them . After two month u go out with "improvements" which will improve NB damage potential marginally and will not do a thing in any other department.
Basically i see it like this :
s) U don't have intention to improve NB's
b) U dont know how to do it
Edited by tino.antoninieb17_ESO on May 28, 2014 9:06AM2 -
Blinks✭✭✭Even if they gave us some damn good Group Function and AoE effects and kept our damage the same there's still no point in playing a NB, the class is designed for Single Target DPS so give it to us. No point in playing a NB if a DK/Sorc can do just the same or even better is there...?
ESO, "play your way", As long as its light armor and staff
v14 DK (Re-rolled to NB, because DK is easy-mode)
v12 Duel Wield Khajiit NightBlade (Re-rolled again to play ranged DPS) Snipe spam
Main v9 Bosmer NB Archer (Can't hit v14 due to ZOS screwing with XP)0 -
HandofBane✭✭✭✭I'm not pointing out how anyone should play, I just have to say there are some conceptual errors in some comments.
NB have always been casters in the elder scrolls universe. Always. If you are actually trying to make it work your way as a melee, not a problem at all, but they are not rogues.
From Morrowind via UESP:
In-game Description: Nightblades are spellcasters who use their magics to enhance mobility, concealment, and stealthy close combat. They have a sinister reputation, since many nightblades are thieves, enforcers, assassins, or covert agents.
Sounds pretty rogue-like to me.2 -
Harakh✭✭✭Yes a buffing assassinDie Welt in einem Sandkorn sehen
Und den Himmel in einer wilden Blume;
Die Unendlichkeit in der Handfläche halten
Und die Ewigkeit in einer Stunde.0 -
martymart76_ESO✭✭✭They can fix all of the problems with NB's by buffing our damage across the board to scale better with level, but especially so with ALL Dual Wielding abilities, ALL assassin abilities, and ALL Shadow abilities.
They can fix all of the problems with NB's by making Assassin abilities use Stamina instead of Magicka as it should be, and the other two trees use a combination of Magicka and Stamina.
They can fix all of the problems with NB's, by making each piece of medium armor also give you a bonus to dodge, and each piece of medium armor reduce the charge-up speed for heavy attacks by 5%.
They can fix all of the problems with NB's, by making all of the attacks we use from stealth, be it crouching or invisibility, work as a sneak attack as it should be.
Boom.
I should work for ZOS.
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damfatcow✭✭Veteran Rank 12 Night Blade here. Close to max gear for Dual Wield NB bow (PVP V12 Dominion Bow, Hundings rage set , Nights silence set, Night mother set , epic/legendary etc. At least 54% weapon critical for bow and dw. I know this class inside out (in this stamina department at least).
When I chose this class I wanted to Dual wield/bow and I've stuck to it because that's how I see NB's intended to play and how I want to play it. I've always tried to push it to the maximum efficiency even when I know that ill never beat a casters DPS. Done everything in this game except for fourth boss AA trial and the entire Hel Ra.This will be a long post. If anyone is interested in what the Maximum effectiveness of a Dual wield/BOW DPS NB can achieve in a group dungeon or trials compared to other classes then read on.
Heres a small class breakdown of what I've seen in the game regarding PVE in the trials and dungeons in Craglorn.
Sorcerer- Designed to be used as casters can wear light armor and be competitive by achieving dps only second to fire destro dk and OP banner. Their class serves a purpose.
Dragonknight- Designed to be tanky/some dps but completely OP at the moment with best mitagation sustain and DPS by far. No need to say more, although I rather ESO not nerf them and just balances classes to their level. Their class obviously serves a purpose and in trials (almost necessary.)
Templar- Designed to be healers/tanky. Don't know too much about temp skills but they do their job well in PVE trials from what I've seen. Their class serves a purpose as well.
Nightblades- Designed to be Dual wield/bow users with high single target sustained damage. Does not compare to the Single target damage of sorc's caster sustainable dps as a NB bow user or DW user. This class serves no purpose if you play as dual wield/bow in groups because other classes can DPS better. If I wanted to play a caster DPS I would have rolled a sorc. Even though I can match or out DPS really casual Sorcs and Dks, for the amount of time, effort, and theory crafting that I put into my Nightblade, I honestly think I should be doing way more especially since NB was designed to be played like this.
Reason why NB Stamina builds will never beat sorc casters or any caster's DPS even when pushed to the maximum with gear and skill selection.
Bow DPS- You can only use bows to maximum effectiveness if you are at max range while damaging enemy because you want that bow passive that gives you damage bonus when at max range. Even at max range, the DPS is still lower than sorcs because magicka abilities do a crap ton more damage per cast. The problem with these trials is alot of the times the enemies would be in your face and thats when your DPS takes a hit. If you weapon swap, thats already a huge decrease in DPS on the target because weapon swap although it has gotten better, is still not instantaneous like it should be and really the delay is not worth it to weapon swap when getting an enemy down RIGHT NOW is crucial for the survivability of the group. A class like sorcs on the other hand, do the same sustainable damage no matter what range they are and that DPS is better than what NBs can achieve with bow at max range.
Dual Wield DPS- Dual wield single target DPS is really not great for hard dungeons especially when you factor in the number of bosses or enemies that have to be downed from RANGE. I use dual wield for my AOE skills like steel tornado/ power extraction. Also for craglorn, if your running as DPS in your group and you dont have decent AOE spammable spell, you might as well just consider yourself a complete burden and waste of a party slot because all trash requires high AOE Damage.
Siphoning Strikes- I hate and love this skill. IMO this is one of the best NB abilities in the game as it allows you to have very high sustain on magicka and stamina and this is especially important for stamina based builds because you need to spam stamina abilities as well as do things like dodge roll and cc break. I hate this skill because it requires a sacrifice of 22% of my weapon damage and spell power in order for it to be used. Why is the damage nerf so high? Especially since NB's in general are already lacking in the DPS department compared to other classes. But I must use it for long Boss fights because 0 stamina= crap DPS.
Haste- On paper, this skill sounds like one of the best abilities weapon users could have in the game and is one of the reasons that drew me into choosing NBs because I like to attack as fast as possible in RPGs. But to achieve maximum DPS in this game you have to use basic attacks while animation canceling with weapon skills like venom arrow to shoot 2 arrows in a second. I don't even know even if they fixed this skill that it would give me any noticeable increase because of the way DPS is achieved in this game by animation canceling. So even after this skill is fixed this skill might be completely useless. Sorcs on the other hand get a skill like Surge that gives them something like +90 weapon damage for 30 seconds allowing them to achieve the highest weapon damage possible in the game for Single Target stamina abilities as well. So please explain to me why Sorcerers that are already the best casters can also achieve the highest possible weapon damage for single target( don't count power extraction) when NB's must be hit with a -22% weapon damage toggle in order to do any real sustainable dps with Stamina abilities.
PVP(off topic)- Small rant on PVP:
In a huge open enviroment like Cyrodill, really there is nothing comparable to the ability Bolt Escape. This ability might not be that powerful in a small enclosed area but we are in a huuuuge area where you can blink 20 miles away in a second to escape from danger and regenerate all your resources to reengage and destroy your enemy in an instant and rinse repeat especially with the burst potential of sorcs. Sorcs argue that they are squishy light armor so they need this but from what I've seen veteran 12 light armor sorcs with 3k+ hp are just as tanky as anyone else and they have bolt escape...Compared to NBs that have a 2.9 second invisibility and even if you spammed it, is not really comparable to instantly moving 20 miles away with the speed of bolt escape. IMO they need to buff path of darkness to give us at least 50% movespeed and NOT ONLY ON THE EFFING TINY PATH but ALWAYS for like 10-20 seconds. One of the biggest annoyances in Cyrodill is that it feels like a walking simulator even if you have a fast horse the area is so big and you can't always teleport to keeps. I'm not sure why only sorcs are able to have this huge advantage compared to other classes to just generally enjoy the gameplay of cyrodill much more. Especially if you roll with a group of sorcs and you have like 1 or 2 members that aren't sorcs, you cant catch up to them and you feel like you are dragging them down because you can be as fast as them.
TLDR- At the current state of the game NB DW/BOWbuilds ( the way NB's were designed to be played IMO) will never be competitive compared to casters because:
-Bow does Crap DPS at close range, DW does crap DPS at any range, and no DPS when you have to run around. Caster do the same sustainable DPS with 1 hotbar at ANY range.
-Magicka abilities do way more damage then stamina
-Our best resource sustain ability siphoning strikes reduces our weapon damage by 22%.
-Haste even when fixed may not do anything at all. To do to highest DPS in this game you need to achieve it by animation canceling.
-Sorc's achieve way higher weapon damage then NBs with Surge.
-Critical strike passive and others not working (not entirely sure)
- Mark Target 75% armor reduction isnt a big deal because mobs don't have that much armor and it doesnt give you a big increase.
Offtopic
- PVPing is much less enjoyable do to huge landscape unless you are a high level sorc with bolt escape. Running with a group of sorcs you feel like you are a slug compared to them and if you can't travel together efficiently as a group you feel like a burden.
I've spent alot of time on this game to get to V12 and have close to max gear but one thing I'm not going to do in this game is to re-roll a sorc or DK or play a caster NB with resto staff. If the next patch does not buff NB stamina DPS builds to the level of a Sorc, DK or caster I'm unsubscribing.Edited by damfatcow on May 28, 2014 2:10PM12 -
Vuron✭✭✭✭✭@damfatcow
One argument that I hear and that I don't understand is the whole "I want to have a stamina build". I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't actually want a stamina build... you just want your bow skills to be viable.
The issue isn't really about magicka/stamina, but it's about the fact that most weapon skills are inferior to class and guild abilities. All weapons, not just bow, have this issue. I think the core design of the game is flawed with the way they set up the 2 pools. It would make everything much easier if all attacks scaled from one pool and the other other pool was used for defense (dodge, block, etc.)
My primary bar is DW, but I have no weapon skills slotted and I'm completely magicka based. I have bow and both resto and desto maxed, as well. I use them all in certain situation. I've had no problems soloing to end-game, but this doesn't change the fact that we're still not needed in groups.
I think there are many issues that people are confusing as being NB specific, which really aren't.
Edited by Vuron on May 28, 2014 1:42PM0 -
damfatcow✭✭@damfatcow
One argument that I hear and that I don't understand is the whole "I want to have a stamina build". I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't actually want a stamina build... you just want your bow skills to be viable.
The issue isn't really about magicka/stamina, but it's about the fact that most weapon skills are inferior to class and guild abilities. All weapons, not just bow, have this issue. I think the core design of the game is flawed with the way they set up the 2 pools. It would make everything much easier if all attacks scaled from one pool and the other other pool was used for defense (dodge, block, etc.)
I'm not arguing viability, I'm arguing competitiveness. I can solo most of the content in this game even group dungeons that require AOE. The problem is that this archetype of rogue dw/bow is not competitive with other class archetypes such as a sorc caster and also there is currently no reason to have a NB in a craglorn trial because other classes can do EVERYTHING better if you are a dual wield bow NB. And I already mentioned, I'm not going to do restro staff or destro staff NB because if I wanted to cast spells I would roll a sorc.2