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Are you kidding me?
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The_Sadist✭✭✭✭✭I would like to see Fighter's Guild abilities and passives disabeled when a player is currently a vampire or ww.
A player could still level their standing with the Fighters guild through questing, but not benefit from the abilities and passives designed to balance fighting their own kind.
How exactly does a vampire or ww touch silver bolts to use them?
How exactly does a vampire or ww cast a holy ring of protection that fears vampires and ww?
How exactly do fighters guild abilities balance the effectiveness of vampire and ww if vampires and ww can also use them to their advantage?
It just doesnt make sense, lore or balance wise.
Gloves perhaps, or potentially the crossbow is preloaded, you don't apply logic to a video game.
Because they're in the ring of protection and anything outside of said ring suffers the outcome.
Because it doesn't have an impact on non-vampires/werewolves and therefore a non-vampire/werewolf isn't at a disadvantage when said vampire/werewolf hits them with a fighter's guild spell which normally deals so-so damage against normal monsters?
You speak about about balance.. but I fail to see how it isn't balanced. My vampire using fighter's guild skills doesn't deal extra damage to your non-vampire/werewolf character and therefore shouldn't even concern you. A vampire fighting a werewolf who are both using fighter's guild skills are both utilising the same skill set and whatnot and are on even ground. A werewolf fighting a vampire who isn't using the fighter's guild skills is a smart werewolf whereas the vampire should have at least had a few slotted into one of his/her bars for good measure. Balance isn't an issue, it's your immersion that's the issue. Lore wise I've made several werewolves / vampires and had them join the fighter's guild and got away with it. Furthermore lore wise vampires are almost indistinguishable from non-vampires and werewolves go unnoticed until they change.. so yes, lore wise they can actually join this guild."Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." ― Zurin Arctus, the Underking.Tragrim - How do I work this thing?
Casually stalking the forums0 -
Chryos✭✭✭✭Theres no such thing as vampires or werewolves, your just seeing things.Edited by Chryos on May 4, 2014 12:56AMIf I am going to quote someone, it's going to be me.0 -
Chryos✭✭✭✭The serious point is you cant hold an MMO to lore specifically, unless you never want to see the game world grow and expand. You dont think that maybe years from now we wont get Dwemmer as a playable race and that the lore wont be adjusted to make that happen? You cant be so inflexible in an MMO.Edited by Chryos on May 4, 2014 1:00AMIf I am going to quote someone, it's going to be me.0
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Iceman_mat✭✭✭Because all this arguing on a forum about Lore doesn't cover the simple fact that maybe they would want to know who the *** is hunting them right?
Dude 1 - "Hey Bro you are a vamp now"
Dude 2- "Sweet"
Dude 1 - "Dude some guys are gonna be hunting you"
Dude 2 - "Who are they?"
Dude 1 - "Those guys"
Dude 2 - "Do they know i'm a vamp?"
Dude 1 - "Nope, not yet"
Dude 2 - "Alright i'm gonna join em"
Dude 1 - "Why?"
Dude 2 - "Well I should find out who wants me dead right?"
Dude 1 - "Yea I guess"
Dude 2 - "Cool gonna go sign up"
Dude 1 - "Dude if they find out your dead"
Dude 2 - "Aren't I already dead?"
Both - "Aaaaaaaaaaaaah hahaha" (pointing at each other)
Bam. Thinking is fun right?
-Cheers4 -
Mykah✭✭✭
It effects balance because a vampire with fighters guild abilities and vampire abilities is better equipped to fight another vampire than a normal player with fighters guild abilities.The_Sadist wrote: »I would like to see Fighter's Guild abilities and passives disabeled when a player is currently a vampire or ww.
A player could still level their standing with the Fighters guild through questing, but not benefit from the abilities and passives designed to balance fighting their own kind.
How exactly does a vampire or ww touch silver bolts to use them?
How exactly does a vampire or ww cast a holy ring of protection that fears vampires and ww?
How exactly do fighters guild abilities balance the effectiveness of vampire and ww if vampires and ww can also use them to their advantage?
It just doesnt make sense, lore or balance wise.
Gloves perhaps, or potentially the crossbow is preloaded, you don't apply logic to a video game.
Because they're in the ring of protection and anything outside of said ring suffers the outcome.
Because it doesn't have an impact on non-vampires/werewolves and therefore a non-vampire/werewolf isn't at a disadvantage when said vampire/werewolf hits them with a fighter's guild spell which normally deals so-so damage against normal monsters?
You speak about about balance.. but I fail to see how it isn't balanced. My vampire using fighter's guild skills doesn't deal extra damage to your non-vampire/werewolf character and therefore shouldn't even concern you. A vampire fighting a werewolf who are both using fighter's guild skills are both utilising the same skill set and whatnot and are on even ground. A werewolf fighting a vampire who isn't using the fighter's guild skills is a smart werewolf whereas the vampire should have at least had a few slotted into one of his/her bars for good measure. Balance isn't an issue, it's your immersion that's the issue. Lore wise I've made several werewolves / vampires and had them join the fighter's guild and got away with it. Furthermore lore wise vampires are almost indistinguishable from non-vampires and werewolves go unnoticed until they change.. so yes, lore wise they can actually join this guild.
The whole point of the fighters guild is to keep vampires and ww in check, if vampires and ww can also use these abilities for their benefit there is no point in not becoming one because they have the best of both worlds.
Pretty basic balance issue, obvious vampire min maxer is obvious.
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The_Sadist✭✭✭✭✭
It effects balance because a vampire with fighters guild abilities and vampire abilities is better equipped to fight another vampire than a normal player with fighters guild abilities.The_Sadist wrote: »I would like to see Fighter's Guild abilities and passives disabeled when a player is currently a vampire or ww.
A player could still level their standing with the Fighters guild through questing, but not benefit from the abilities and passives designed to balance fighting their own kind.
How exactly does a vampire or ww touch silver bolts to use them?
How exactly does a vampire or ww cast a holy ring of protection that fears vampires and ww?
How exactly do fighters guild abilities balance the effectiveness of vampire and ww if vampires and ww can also use them to their advantage?
It just doesnt make sense, lore or balance wise.
Gloves perhaps, or potentially the crossbow is preloaded, you don't apply logic to a video game.
Because they're in the ring of protection and anything outside of said ring suffers the outcome.
Because it doesn't have an impact on non-vampires/werewolves and therefore a non-vampire/werewolf isn't at a disadvantage when said vampire/werewolf hits them with a fighter's guild spell which normally deals so-so damage against normal monsters?
You speak about about balance.. but I fail to see how it isn't balanced. My vampire using fighter's guild skills doesn't deal extra damage to your non-vampire/werewolf character and therefore shouldn't even concern you. A vampire fighting a werewolf who are both using fighter's guild skills are both utilising the same skill set and whatnot and are on even ground. A werewolf fighting a vampire who isn't using the fighter's guild skills is a smart werewolf whereas the vampire should have at least had a few slotted into one of his/her bars for good measure. Balance isn't an issue, it's your immersion that's the issue. Lore wise I've made several werewolves / vampires and had them join the fighter's guild and got away with it. Furthermore lore wise vampires are almost indistinguishable from non-vampires and werewolves go unnoticed until they change.. so yes, lore wise they can actually join this guild.
The whole point of the fighters guild is to keep vampires and ww in check, if vampires and ww can also use these abilities for their benefit there is no point in not becoming one because they have the best of both worlds.
Pretty basic balance issue, obvious vampire min maxer is obvious.
And a DK is better suited to fighting a vampire compared to a NB, I'm still not seeing your point. A vampire dealing more damage to a werewolf who also has access to the same skill line doesn't really have an impact on a non-vampire / werewolf user as said 'extra' damage doesn't apply to a them.
What angle are you coming from? My vampire or werewolf gaining extra damage against an undead enemy in PvE when your non-werewolf / vampire gains the same passives and abilities because of a guild which is accessible to everyone and always has been seems fine by me. Furthermore, in PvP as a non-vampire / werewolf user you're not put at disadvantage because a werewolf hits you with silver bolts, a spell which is mediocre against normal Individuals / monsters. If they add a THIRD world skill and changed the fighter's guild around I wouldn't object, but as it stands the fighter's guild has a vampire and a necromancer in it.. so it's not lore breaking and it's simply a matter of 'They gain an extra skill tree, why can't we?'.'
Pretty sure you're using the word balance wrong, and totes a min/maxer, for cereal, spot on."Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." ― Zurin Arctus, the Underking.Tragrim - How do I work this thing?
Casually stalking the forums0 -
Iceman_mat wrote: »Because all this arguing on a forum about Lore doesn't cover the simple fact that maybe they would want to know who the *** is hunting them right?
Dude 1 - "Hey Bro you are a vamp now"
Dude 2- "Sweet"
Dude 1 - "Dude some guys are gonna be hunting you"
Dude 2 - "Who are they?"
Dude 1 - "Those guys"
Dude 2 - "Do they know i'm a vamp?"
Dude 1 - "Nope, not yet"
Dude 2 - "Alright i'm gonna join em"
Dude 1 - "Why?"
Dude 2 - "Well I should find out who wants me dead right?"
Dude 1 - "Yea I guess"
Dude 2 - "Cool gonna go sign up"
Dude 1 - "Dude if they find out your dead"
Dude 2 - "Aren't I already dead?"
Both - "Aaaaaaaaaaaaah hahaha" (pointing at each other)
Bam. Thinking is fun right?
-Cheers
sure, if any of that was in the dialogue at all or even hinted at, you would be right. But its not. - Reality is fun right?0 -
huntgod_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vampire werewolves have been *** in pretty much every iteration I have seen.
Vampire are undead and typified by control, order and reserve (though some genre's have developed embracing a savage vampire, generally they are epitomized by control).
Werewolves are the other end of the spectrum, they are vibrantly alive, chaotic and often nature personified. A supernatural force of nature...
Combining the two is just...dumb. The result would be something existing between the extremes, that exhibited both an iron fisted control at times with periods or pockets of extreme chaos and violence, with an underlying need to force their surroundings to conform to their will. Oh wait that's people...nevermind.--- HuntGod ---
Officer of the Unrepentant
www.unrepentantgaming.com0 -
DanMan is right. It's absurd.
Listen. It's not an Elder Scrolls lore argument. It's an ESO lore argument. The fighters guild, as presented in the game's own lore, would not, without mitigating circumstances (Janeve Tamrith, for example, if she wanted to join), accept a vampire among its ranks.
Can you make a reasonable RP or lore argument for letting vamps into the guild? Sure. Many people have, in this thread. But the game doesn't, and it should. That it doesn't is an ugly oversight. Far from a gamebreaker, of course. Although it is particularly aggravating given the OP-ness of vampires that was, until very recently, running unchecked in other areas of the game.0 -
Re: Silver - I'm not sure offhand what the TES lore is on this point, but not every vampire/werewolf fiction presupposes that they can't handle it safely. (In those, injuries caused by it don't heal like ordinary ones, but only when the silver smacks them with enough force to actually cause an injury.)
Re: Balance - they're additional skill lines that require investment just like the rest; any points you're putting into those are points you're not putting into something else that would make your character more effective. As long as any given skill line isn't too strong or too weak (and yes, that IS a problem at the moment - vampires on the too strong side and werewolves on the too weak side), it isn't unbalancing.
Re: Lore (Spoilerish) - The contact with Meridia is about nailing Bal's invasion forces, which mostly consist of undead and daedra. Other undead or daedra aren't necessarily a priority (you don't see them rushing to clean out every undead-haunted ruin).
If the PC is keen on trashing Bal's invasion forces (and isn't otherwise causing a big mess) then the "enemy of my enemy" principle applies, even if the guild knows about it (canonically you're supposed to be keeping that a secret). That the PC is (mostly by happenstance, and perhaps unwittingly) also an agent of Meridia in the battle against Bal, with the guildmaster is taking orders from Meridia, suggests that they'd be in the clear anyway; by the time the guildmaster is gone, the PC's reputation among the guild is well enough established that it isn't likely to become a problem.
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Ruddertail✭✭✭michiganteacher_ESO wrote: »DanMan is right. It's absurd.
Listen. It's not an Elder Scrolls lore argument. It's an ESO lore argument. The fighters guild, as presented in the game's own lore, would not, without mitigating circumstances (Janeve Tamrith, for example, if she wanted to join), accept a vampire among its ranks.
Can you make a reasonable RP or lore argument for letting vamps into the guild? Sure. Many people have, in this thread. But the game doesn't, and it should. That it doesn't is an ugly oversight. Far from a gamebreaker, of course. Although it is particularly aggravating given the OP-ness of vampires that was, until very recently, running unchecked in other areas of the game.
You cannot tell a stage 1/2 vampire from a human being and it's only really obvious at 4. Are they going to shoot all new applicants with silver bolts to see who's knocked down? It'd be less reasonable to NOT let vampires join, as long as they're in stage 1/2 when in contact with members.0 -
isengrimb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭huntgod_ESO wrote: »Vampire werewolves have been *** in pretty much every iteration I have seen.
Vampire are undead and typified by control, order and reserve (though some genre's have developed embracing a savage vampire, generally they are epitomized by control).
Werewolves are the other end of the spectrum, they are vibrantly alive, chaotic and often nature personified. A supernatural force of nature...
Combining the two is just...dumb. The result would be something existing between the extremes, that exhibited both an iron fisted control at times with periods or pockets of extreme chaos and violence, with an underlying need to force their surroundings to conform to their will. Oh wait that's people...nevermind.
In the World of Darkness, a werewolf who succumbed to vampirism was referred to as an "Abomination", so go from there. These were supposed to be very, very rare (near to the point of uniqueness) because even if the werewolf were disgusting enough to be willing to turn, the process would most likely kill him permanently (Gaia rot his traitorous soul).
Damn Wyrmy cadavers who don't know how to lie still in their graves ... *ptui!*
As far as Elder Scrolls go, I don't remember the Companions having much of a liking or sympathy for vampires or hags or things like that.
Edited by isengrimb16_ESO on May 12, 2014 12:05PM0 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭I don't see an issue. Let werewolves and vampires join. Just make it so they're expelled if they are seen by an NPC in stage 3-4/transformed, and can no longer advance the skill line or rejoin unless they get cured.
The justice system will hopefully have something like this, along with restrictions for entering town in those states.0 -
Ruddertail wrote: »michiganteacher_ESO wrote: »DanMan is right. It's absurd.
Listen. It's not an Elder Scrolls lore argument. It's an ESO lore argument. The fighters guild, as presented in the game's own lore, would not, without mitigating circumstances (Janeve Tamrith, for example, if she wanted to join), accept a vampire among its ranks.
Can you make a reasonable RP or lore argument for letting vamps into the guild? Sure. Many people have, in this thread. But the game doesn't, and it should. That it doesn't is an ugly oversight. Far from a gamebreaker, of course. Although it is particularly aggravating given the OP-ness of vampires that was, until very recently, running unchecked in other areas of the game.
You cannot tell a stage 1/2 vampire from a human being and it's only really obvious at 4. Are they going to shoot all new applicants with silver bolts to see who's knocked down? It'd be less reasonable to NOT let vampires join, as long as they're in stage 1/2 when in contact with members.
Why do people keep saying this? Yes you absolutely CAN tell, their eyes and skin have subtle but very real deviations from their original face.0 -
I don't see an issue. Let werewolves and vampires join. Just make it so they're expelled if they are seen by an NPC in stage 3-4/transformed, and can no longer advance the skill line or rejoin unless they get cured.
The justice system will hopefully have something like this, along with restrictions for entering town in those states.
That is a fine solution. I doubt it will happen, as it comes with real consequence, but I would like to see that.0 -
Klynt420Soul ShrivenDanMan3395 wrote: »Werewolves and Vampires are allowed to be members of the fighter's guild? Aside from the fact that this is a moronic oversight in terms of lore, doesn't this mean vampires get both the vamp passives and the anti-vamp passives in PVP/PVE?
Blade was a Vampire and had the abilities to both be a vampire and a vampire slayer........
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DanMan3395 wrote: »Werewolves and Vampires are allowed to be members of the fighter's guild? Aside from the fact that this is a moronic oversight in terms of lore, doesn't this mean vampires get both the vamp passives and the anti-vamp passives in PVP/PVE?
Blade was a Vampire and had the abilities to both be a vampire and a vampire slayer........
Bella swan should have joined the FG.0 -
Mansome✭✭✭
Ever heard of the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Seriously watch a few episodes of Supernatural and that will change your tune. Those guys are the real monster hunters.DanMan3395 wrote: »Werewolves and Vampires are allowed to be members of the fighter's guild? Aside from the fact that this is a moronic oversight in terms of lore, doesn't this mean vampires get both the vamp passives and the anti-vamp passives in PVP/PVE?
Edited by Mansome on May 20, 2014 7:10PM0 -
ZeroInspiration✭✭✭DanMan3395 wrote: »Ruddertail wrote: »michiganteacher_ESO wrote: »DanMan is right. It's absurd.
Listen. It's not an Elder Scrolls lore argument. It's an ESO lore argument. The fighters guild, as presented in the game's own lore, would not, without mitigating circumstances (Janeve Tamrith, for example, if she wanted to join), accept a vampire among its ranks.
Can you make a reasonable RP or lore argument for letting vamps into the guild? Sure. Many people have, in this thread. But the game doesn't, and it should. That it doesn't is an ugly oversight. Far from a gamebreaker, of course. Although it is particularly aggravating given the OP-ness of vampires that was, until very recently, running unchecked in other areas of the game.
You cannot tell a stage 1/2 vampire from a human being and it's only really obvious at 4. Are they going to shoot all new applicants with silver bolts to see who's knocked down? It'd be less reasonable to NOT let vampires join, as long as they're in stage 1/2 when in contact with members.
Why do people keep saying this? Yes you absolutely CAN tell, their eyes and skin have subtle but very real deviations from their original face.
Did you ever play Oblivion? All your arguments fall to the ground if you knew how vamps worked in TESIV. For example, you say WW and Vamps can't handle silver weapons but in Oblivion I remember more than one Vamp rushing at me with a silver sword. In Skyrim you could use silver swords even as a WW so there goes that argument.
On to the appearance. In Oblivion the Count of Skingrad was a Vamp and most people didn't notice unless they were very acquainted with him and knew that he never went out in sunlight etc. In Skyrim you could be a vampire and join the Dawnguard whose only purpose was the hunting of such creatures. Now tell me how ESO contradicts lore.
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The_Sadist✭✭✭✭✭Ohmygoshjustletthisthreaddie.
It has no logic and doesn't take into account normal ES lore, not worth getting worked up over."Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." ― Zurin Arctus, the Underking.Tragrim - How do I work this thing?
Casually stalking the forums0