@ragamerb16_ESO Try playing it before dismissing it, watching a video is much easier than executing. Also you've only seen one of the two trials, I don't think there is any footage of Hel Ra Citadel out there beyond a group wiping to the first boss.


@dansksikprb18_ESO I'm pretty sure they already came out and stated that once the Craglorn test was finished the PTS would be wiped and for future patches they would open it to everyone who has an active subscription by letting you copy your Live character over.

As for Standard vs Imperial, yes you got a pet and a mount and some treasure maps and even a 10% more xp when you play with a designated partner (which is all fairly standard as far as MMO collectors packs go) but Imperial Edition did not give you the ability to play any race on any faction - that was included as a part of the Explorer's Pack which was available *for free* by preordering the game.

Sometimes it feels like people are looking for a reason to get mad at the game.

Guess this follows suit with everything ZoS has done up to this point. Leaving game breaking bugs settled deeply in for weeks (months if you count when they were reported during original PTS and/or stress tests) with no hot fix (vamp, nightblades, exp exploits, vp exploits, banking, duping, zone quests, main quests, etc, etc, etc). "Fixes" that merely reduce or remove functionality. Taking weeks to even pretend to do anything about a serious bot and gold seller infestation. Distinguishing an "Emperor" who did next to no PvP for the title. Now exalting those who are able to clear content that only they have access to (while the game is live and subbed).

Thought the tamriel chronicle, guild spotlight, and battlemasters corner articles were good. Really looking forward to some of the announced plans for the future. But this?

Love the game, rapidly losing faith in the owners.

Seriously... When is Craglorn coming out? Not even a release date announced yet?

Unacceptable, Devs/Employees should have been doing the live streams. Having a game based on a leader board system should not have "select guilds" who get to participate in PTS events. PUBLIC test servers are not for SOME guilds to get to test out the new content. How on earth do you think that this creates an equal playing field? Why have leader boards if you consistently give advantages to some and not all? Your idea of competition is not going to fly for long.

Even though you continue to tip the scales, it doesn't mean that these guilds will be holding the spots for long (if they even top the boards initially) and that's the only thing you have going for you now. Guilds will take this as a challenge to beat the ones who have the unfair advantage, but that will only carry so far before people get sick of competing against whoever you deem to be your favorite. I hope, for the sake of fair competition, that this is the last time you will be opening "events" for select guilds and people.

Try playing it before dismissing it, watching a video is much easier than executing. Also you've only seen one of the two trials, I don't think there is any footage of Hel Ra Citadel out there beyond a group wiping to the first boss.

@Mystborn‌: I would really love to... But due to my considerable experience on MMOs... Watching the videos is already telling me a lot.

And I'm not focusing on the tactics used or whatever (Nothing gamebreaking... Just pile up on the AOE heals, avoid ground AOE)... No, No... The most important details come from the players' comments. They may be seen like small details but in the right context means far more than any "Developer Talk" or things like that:

- "After killing the Boss 3 times... No loot".

- "Thanks for coming and help killing this Boss".

When I first read that "Big Group" content was attached to a Timer Race... I immediatly thought 3 things:

a) Any1 will be able to defeat them with enough time.

b) The "lock" timer will be short.

c) If they are only meassuring DPS... DPS builds is what ppl will bring.


Seeing and hearing the videos, sadly, have confirmed that:

a) The lock timer is small enough for multiple runs on the same Boss (It does exist a lock timer at all?)

b) If a 12 men Raid assembled from ppl that meets for the 1st time is able to Beat the Trials... Means no complex group tactics are needed -> DPS races just requiring proper individual PvE tactics.

c) Timer Beating will be done by: 1) Trash Skpping (Through any available exploits), 2) DPS builds/classes stacking.


With this expectatives... This is not my pill... Leaderboards mean nothing to me or most of my fellows... We care about group tactics and we like to beat challenges with the classes/builds we all like to play and we hate encouraging FOTM build stacking to beat challenges pursuing any kind of "fame increasing" syndrome... Over time forces Devs to turn all challenges into the same and to put ALL classes at the same level of performance within a VERY restricted Group Content (More often than not... Simple DPS races)...

...In short, this first Steps are the ones that will trigger the typical degradation most MMOs suffer in the Big Group department. This steps are done sooner or later on most MMOs (Specially when Subs decrease) but...

...We prefer they are taken later, not been the 1st like it seems to be here.

@ragamerb16_ESO

Regarding loot, there is a weekly quest to complete each trial that rewards a chest containing loot. There is also an additional chest given out to the top times on the leaderboard (I think they said 100 or 200?). Also, according to Jessica and Gina the loot mechanics on PTS are not the same loot mechanics as on Live so judging the whole instance off of that seems foolish. Again, try before you judge, don't rely on your "considerable experience on MMO's" to make assumptions. Although as I said before it seems many people had already made up their minds and are just looking for things to justify.

As for a 12 man raid assembled for the first time beating the Trials? did you even watch the streams? Where did that happen? Sure some groups beat the initial boss but he's the easiest in there. The difficulty on the 4 bosses ramps up nicely in the order you meet them.

Since every death gives you a 5 minute penalty on your time I think that will be one of the huge factors in leaderboard spots, not whether you can sneak around the trash pull before the first boss. Honestly, I feel like it's no faster to sneak all the way round than it is to just kill that stuff. None of the other stuff is skippable afaik, and if exploits are discovered then they'll just have to be fixed (like they would have to be in any game).

@Lanae

Again, I saw two groups skip *one* pack, and I'm not convinced they got past it any faster than the groups that just AoE'd it down. If I'm wrong and missed some rampant content skipping then feel free to point it out, I couldn't watch all the runs at once. I think you're right though and ZoS should make that one pack unskippable.

ER didn't say they were going to stack DK's to win, they said they needed more DK's. If you look at their group makeup they had 2 DK's, 3 Sorcs, 3 Templars, and 4 Nightblades - and that's only if you consider Atropos' dual wield melee build a Sorc and not a Nightblade =P. They also had 2 sorcs, 3+ Nightblades, 2 Templars, and 0 DK's sitting out - so their class distribution is why they are looking for DK's over any other class.

Oh yeah, and neither of their DK's were Destro Staff DPS builds.

Lanae wrote: »

I have seen all the streams and I am stil confused as to why a developer cannot understand the reasoning of a player. If you make a tunnel and throw some mobs in it the general response will not be: hey awesome more mobs to beat.
When time is of the essence the first question everyone asks themselves is 'how can I shortcut these encounters'. It is something developers never take into account.

It is something that is also very visible in the rest of the game. When people go for skyshards and find a big monster in the cave blocking the way. A dev would expect people to find a way to beat the monster. A player will just die and corpse run past it ignoring the monster.

And as far as ER are concerned I assume that if they need more DKs that they are going to use more DKs. The fact that they are considering this instead of their own setup just says it all by not saying it.

It is also not something that hasn't been mentioned a dozen times before on the board namely that the DKs are just way more powerful than any other class.

Are you not reading what I'm saying?

They are short on DK's

For the event they had (between their 12 man raid and standbys):

7 Nightblades
5 Sorcerers
5 Templars
2 DragonKnights

Yes, they would like to run a 3rd DK and not 4 Nightblades - that's not some kind of damning evidence that DK's are overpowered. They also want to have enough people for a second 12 Man Trial group and that's hard if you have both your DK's in one group and none in a second (or split them 1/1).

Considering this was the test server and people could roll VR9 *whatever class they wanted* if DK was sooo OP then ER would have had some of their Nightblades roll a DK Template right?

On top of that, neither of their DK's were the Destro Staff DPS template you claim are so overpowered. One was their Main Tank, the other was their Off-tank when they needed a second tank and melee DPS when they didn't.


As far as skipping stuff in Trials goes: Yes, I agree that in Trials ZoS should make all packs unskippable, as you said - hopefully they change that by release. What I'm saying is that from everything I saw *ONE* pack was skippable, and it probably took as much time to sneak all around the room as it did for ER to go in and AoE them all down. While it should be changed, it's not some kind of gamebreaking epidemic of trash being skipped all over the instance that is going to ruin Trials if it isn't fixed by release. Can we at least agree on that, or did you see more trash being skipped than that first pack of bannermen?

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

Don't get distracted by the loot... It's not important (There is a detail about it that may matter... See below). It the fact that they "killed the boss 3 times" on one of the videos. The loot will really matter on other aspects of the game... Which is the comparisson with what a player can craft... But that's subject for other discussion.

It's the lack of lockdown (or the extremely short nature of it). Just look around on other MMOs and see what happens when "group content" is released like this. Has been done like this on others... The mistake recognized, and then appropiate change triggered.

Same goes with that "detail" about loot... But that can't be perceived on any video I got my hands on... It's a shared table? Or per Boss?. Again, look around on other MMOs on how each configuartion led to how the feature was really used at the end.

I'm not sure what you're saying here... You keep alluding to other games and problems they had without actually saying what game or what problem. Fact is, they already stated that the loot system on PTS is not what is being used on Live. So neither you or I know what the loot system will be - as a result we can't really know whether that loot system will be a problem right?

On PTS right now there is no loot to speak of fromt he first 3 bosses, the final boss drops a VR12 purple set piece for about 50% of the group and each participant who beats the last boss gets a guaranteed drop from a loot coffer, as well as possibly a second coffer if they make the leaderboard. BUT they already told us this is not the system that is going to be on Live.

My guess would be they will continue to not have any lockout on entering and participating but that they will give each boss a loot table (possibly shared, possibly not) and put a "loot lockout" from each boss of 1 week. This allows you to farm the place over and over to get better times without being able to farm for loot ad nauseum.

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

In fact, was the first thing I typed, I though you read my post so I repeat it here again... I didn't watched all of them. Only the ones with an offline version (If I search today, probably I will find more).

Well my understanding is from the 7 groups that participated, 3 of them beat the 2nd boss, 1 of them beat the 3rd boss within the hour (and then went on to beat the 4th boss later that day). None of the groups that beat the 2nd boss were a "12 man raid assembled for the first time".

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

Honestly, I feel like it's no faster to sneak all the way round than it is to just kill that stuff. None of the other stuff is skippable afaik, and if exploits are discovered then they'll just have to be fixed (like they would have to be in any game).

Erm... Well, if you are one of the few lucky Souls that haven't witness it with your own eyes... Read a bit on CS forums on what can be done with an ESO "client"... Do you really think that a group of enemies can't be skipped at will? Do you think the fact that a singular name appears on a given table... Will prevent the person (or group of) to use any means necessary to appear up there? (Hint: There have been multiple official public articles covering aspects of this game like that... Conveniently "forgeting" asking the details of how a given "feat" was managed on the field, which are obvious for ANY1 involved in such activity and that most of us understand aren't promoting what was advertised about such activity... Why ZO insist on highlighting this? A mistery to me, tbh... So, see below, I prefer to think all is intentional.).

I'm talking specifically about trials - not whether you can skip trash in other dungeons or the open world.

There are 11 pulls in the dungeon, the one pull that a couple of groups sneaked by is the only pull that doesn't require you to kill it in order to open a door, or unlock a teleport pad or cause a bridge to materialise. Yes they should make it so you can't sneak past.

As for why there is a single name appearing on the kill table, there was an issue where if you logged out or crashed while participating in a Trial you became ineligible for the leaderboards. On one attempt vs the mage the entire group wiped but were experiencing a "stuck in combat" bug (which was reported and fixed by ZoS) so no one could rez. Everyone but Vileintent logged out and back in then ran back to the boss, Vile was rezzed when they got back. As a result when they killed the Mage the only name that was eligible for the leaderboard was his. It was *not* an exploit, he did not sneak past stuff and get on the leaderboards solo, it was a bug that the other 11 members of his group did not appear on the board.

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

Strictly speaking about Trash... It's, again a well known subject on other MMOs. If skipping the "trash" is not much faster than trying to kill it... Means the trash is easy... What's the point on it then?. You have the complementary reassoning on when skipping "trash" is just too valuable because it's too hard or time consuming.

I agree, I think that trash pull is easy and could be made more difficult - but it's also the introduction to the instance. I think they intend the first boss and the lead up to him to be pretty easy to allow less experienced groups a chance to get in and participate. The Soul Reservoir system also makes it so that each death on trash not only costs time on your run but can reduce the number of pulls you get on your "progression" content.

In this case the groups had to sneak at reduced speed to get around him. Any group actually threatening the leaderboards should be able to wipe that group out pretty quickly (in its current state). I do wonder why you continue to fixate on one single trash pack that can apparently be bypassed like the legitimacy whole instance depends on it...

ragamerb16_ESO wrote: »

As I think we are already on 2014 and that any competent Dev is aware of all of this... I don't loose time thinking what may or may not be... After watching, I loose time into thinking why a given model is configured into that way or another... I implicitely assume ZO is perfectly aware of all this implications (I know... We have proof that ZO can be extremely naive regarding how certain features are really used at the end... Sorry, this is not Meridian59 and my patience with falling on well known pitfalls is already spent)...

...So instead I just assume everything appearing (and how it's really used by the Community) is intentional so, naturally, I ask myself... Is ZO configuring this activity to encourage the kind of gameplay I like? The answer looks... "No!"... Which is natural, a Dev can't please every one 100%... You just need to have enough experience to recognize when you do not belong to the Target Population a given feature tries to address... What you do later is up to you and your wallet's depth.

Again with the mysterious and non-descript accusations of mistakes - what gameplay do you think ZoS is encouraging? If your answer is "skipping mobs" then I have to say I disagree with you, one trivial pack is currently skippable (and will hopefully be made non-skippable in Live). That does not indicate that ZoS is encouraging skipping mobs in the trials.

Sure, maybe the game isn't for you - I can't tell you what you like or don't. What I am saying is to judge the content based on doing the content, not on some videos and assumptions. I think if you don't go in with your mind made up you'll find it much more enjoyable than you think you will.

d.kildenb16_ESO wrote: »

Adding my voice in this aswell:

It it really pathetic live steaming PTR stuff. It is just pouring salt in the wound and taunting people that some select players can play the content but the rest of the PAYING customers cannot..

That sucks you feel that way. I think they figured with so many excited and wanting more info on Trials it would have been a cool thing to let people see rather than just read about. Unfortunately it backfired!

Fortunately however, it shouldn't be an issue moving forward since they said they'll be allowing anyone with an active subscription to copy their live character to the PTS and participate in the testing on future patches.

@Mystborn Sorry to "disorder" your post quotes but... I think it's a requirement, hope you agree after you reach the end:

Again with the mysterious and non-descript accusations of mistakes - what gameplay do you think ZoS is encouraging?

Regarding "naiveness" of ZO... I will be brief and will just refer to a single topic (there are more) but I hope with this one embodies perfectly what I mean (The original goal... Turned 180º by the real use the Community does of it that ends promoting EXACLY the opposite of what you meant, as Dev):

Who offers a repeteable PvP quest able to be completed by receiving raid-wide kill credit and then is "surprised" by players not participating into PvP but just focused on getting this quest done as often as possible?


Now I will try to, again, be brief, and offer you a "prediction" of how Trials are going to be used based on the different options for the topics we were talking about. I'm going to simplify the Community into 3 portions: loot-centric (The ones interested in getting loot = LC), record-centric (the ones interested in beating the current time record = TC) and challenge-centric (the ones interested in defeating the bosses once = CC). I'm going to also assume that no lockdown exist (Or it's shorter than the full run would take).

First Conflict - Live streaming of tactics. As CC how do you receive the fact that full fledged kill videos are accessible even before you can get your hands in the content itself?.

Second Conflict - TC versus LC + CC. As TC what would you do if you know the current run will not be able to defeat the timer you want to beat? Will you keep playing so LC + CC can fullfill their goals, or "reset" the run? The further you reduce the current Record... How long will you wait until you know the current run will not be able to make it?.

Third Conflict - Shared Loot table. As LC, if each Doss has the same chance to drop what you look for, will you go for deeper Bosses thus having to deal with trash or... Just "reset" to "Farm" the 1st Boss?

Fourth Conflict - Per Boss Loot table. As LC, if Boss X you need drops from, do not drop it in this run... Would you wait so CC + TC can complete the run? Or just bail and reset to try to increase the frequency of Boss X kills?

Fifth Conflict - Lockdown to loot only. As LC, will you come, help and pay the "running costs" so TC + CC have a chance at achieving their goals once the Loot Lockdown is in place?.


I hope that, by now, you realize that the solution most players will gravitate towards is... "Group with same mindset players"... And I hope that you notice how ZO is planning to support full access through Group Finder (I hope I dont need to explain what happens when you increase the number of concurrent players that access an activity "anonimously" through tools like this... This is one of those "well known" evolutions any1 can check on ANY MMO with them... I consider them also "public" knowledge by now... If ZO Devs decide to ignore what's going to happen when you mix the 3 types of players into the same run... It's up to them to eat the backlash).

I'm presenting you the kind of TOUGH Design Decissions to make... Because there is not "good one"... Just who to *** off (CC type of players, ofc, have already been shafted). Notice how most of the problems gravitate around an, aparently simple concept: Lockdown timer.

There are 11 pulls in the dungeon, the one pull that a couple of groups sneaked by is the only pull that doesn't require you to kill it in order to open a door, or unlock a teleport pad or cause a bridge to materialise. Yes they should make it so you can't sneak past.

Then, based on each type of player you have the extremes... That may or may not escalate based on the control (and reaction speed) ZO does about Trials (If PvP "anomalies" can be used as a gauge of how much ZO is willing to "correct" "extreme tactics" acrued benefits... Don't hold your breadth):

- Teleport to skip trash = impossible to beat timers.
- FOTM DPS builds stack = instakick from groups if you don't have "currently OP" combos.


I hope that I explained better the "vagueness" of my previous posts... And I hope you understand why I didn't want to go into this level of detail unless really needed.


Now suppose that you identify yourself with the CC group... How would you perceive all this Trial bussiness?

I feel like this conversation is going nowhere, you are clearly invested in your belief that you'll hate trials. At this point it seems like you are more interested in proving your opinion that "Trials are bad" is right than you are actually discussing the pro's and con's of Trials and if they are good or bad.

You may not believe it but I'm still answering your VERY IMPORTANT question:

what gameplay do you think ZoS is encouraging?

The problem is that first I needed to explain what "my past experience with MMOs" is telling me...

...The way you answered make me think that you got the same idea as me, which is "Group with same mindset ppl" and that you implicitely agree with the "disruptive" behaviours I was explaining based on which options ZO decides to go with when content reaches live.

Well, now I can go a step further and talk about that "apparent defense" you think will solve all the Trials problems. "Guild-only runs".

Take your own data... Can you calculate how many full runs an organized guild of each of the "tendencies" will take to "finish" the content according to their gaming tastes?.

I hope you realize now... Which is the target this content is aimed at, why a Timed Leaderboard is needed and why LC/CC types of players will not last in Organized Guilds (LC types will last longer if ZO Devs are wise enough to include unique powerfull loot into those weekly Timed Ranked rewards... Sadly it requires a hardcore mindset that they didn't promote in their other ranked activity, PvP, which also makes me think they will not try here neither, it will raise too many complains from the PuGs), and why ZO has to be sure this content is PuGable by not creating wipefests.

That's what I was trying to say that I know that me and my fellows are not the "Main Target" of this content... This doesn't mean I will not go there and get my kills (Loot that's not needed to progress lacks any meaning to me) even getting fun while doing it... But it will not last beyond a week, I'm afraid.

Results apparently posted to Facebook but the link appears to be broken on the Twitter post? and I'm sure there are others without a Facebook account that would be interested to see these if they can be posted here or elsewhere.

holy cow! I had to stop reading posts because its nothing but whining and moaning. If you had a positive decent post in this thread i apologize to you i didn't get a chance to see it.. So who cares is the PTS people get first look, realm first blah blah blah. Does it really honestly matter? This event was here to be able to show the gaming population whats to come, to drum up excitement for the release, get ready for some competition and all we got is QQ. It will not be Zenimax or the player testers, or Bethesda that will ruin this game, it will be the community and its really really sad.

Yes Craglorn should have been out what at least a week ago? If it wasn't ready it wasn't ready. If they released it and there were bugs, how bad would the loving community rip them apart? so they take longer to get it working and now its, they don't keep there promises? Now people are complaining when it is released player testers will have an edge over the rest of us?

People. Please. This negativity is getting out of hand. If your not happy don't be here. If you can not give constructive criticism don't be here. If you give criticism and people don't listen, don't get upset. Its like we all want to be unhappy and make everyone else around you unhappy.