PVP Balance Should NOT Be Drastically Considered More Than PVE Balance. Not Again.

WuffyCerulei · August 28

I'm going to be very blunt when I say this: PVP balance should not the main factor in balance changes when it comes to combat and character mechanics over PVE balance. I've been playing this game seriously for over a decade now. I've seen a thousand metas, changes, balances, and more. For most of that time, PVP balancing almost always came first over PVE balance. It was only the past few years that I've seen a good, well-balanced adjusting of skills, passives, sets, and whatnot for both PVE and PVP. Mainly, I've seen Battle Spirit and targets being "Players" as the main ways of keeping PVP-based changes from affecting PVE too much or if at all. I can only praise such a good way to keep both main components of the game balanced and not overly affected by either side. However, U51 updates have me extremely concerned, especially (to no fault of any dev) after the layoffs. I've seen a few too many changes that were clearly made to appease very loud and whiny PVPers in the forums, with barely any consideration for how it'll affect PVE. Predominantly aggressively nerfing Werewolf, the brand new and fun way to play in ESO.

Let me state that I do also PVP a lot, and I very much understand the gripes and unbalanced builds like Power Lash DK in PVP for a long while. However, I also PVE quite a bit. I enjoy both aspects of the game. I very much enjoy doing DPS as a Sorcerer Werewolf, a magicka light armor build at that, because it's new AND fun! It's completely different from the same old cookie-cutter DPS builds that have been essentially the same for years. I cannot truly express my disappointment when I saw that Sorcerer Werewolf in PVE is going to be nerfed into the ground because PVPers complained the loudest about. However, the in total Werewolf nerfs, primarily the sustain nerfs, also mainly seem to stem from PVPers being extremely loud and taking up the most space in balance conversations. I'm just very disappointed, and a bit sad that a fun way to play the game will be affected so much by only one part of the game.

I will also make a huge point that Werewolf PVE builds already exclude 5 of the 7 classes from having viable builds that are competitive with the top Werewolf PVE build, which is Nightblade DPS. That will soon be 6 out of 7 classes, and again, with this being a new play style just for it to be nerfed into the ground because of PVP complaints just takes the wind out of my sail. I should also say that I have not seen a PVE werewolf tank once since the rework came out.

I know this might come off as a bit of a ramble, but I'm just so beyond tired and intolerant to the past combat balancing that clearly favored PVP balance over PVE. I just don't want the good and fair balancing that ZOS has done in the past few years to go down the tubes for one reason or another. It's not fair whatsoever to the larger of the two game aspects who are often not on the forums to complain or gripe about inbalanced things. Just can't have that old ideology back to make PVE changes so unfairly drastic.

CatalinaWineMixer2 · August 29

You aren't the only one. I'll sum it up for you: "I died! Everyone in the entire game needs nerfed!"🤡 It's a clown show. My Warden is wrecking balled (Im a Warden Main), the WW and DK are getting gutted, Subclassing ruined our beloved characters and combat has never been worse in the entire history of Eso. The fact that they're ruining brand new refreshed characters speaks volumes about what we will now happen to the rest of them. They need to stop catering to an absolute minority. They won't be satisfied until they're playing with only themselves and an end of service date.

Everyone has had enough waiting. They never should have done Subclassing in the first place. It needs to be removed. It's the reason we have to have reworks. It's the reason so many people are walking away. Because their characters they've had for 10 years are garbage. This constant nerf cycle drives players directly out of the game.

People who keep saying, "The refreshes will fix your characters, just be patient" don't get that we are tired of hanging on. And it's very evident what will happen to every single one of them now after what's happened to the DK and WW. As it directly spills over to PvE. AGAIN.

Our Guilds are exploring Once Human. And it’s a direct result of this broken cycle of nerfs that never ends. If that game takes off for us, we are done. Im saying this as a day 1, 10 year Eso vet. I'm saying this as a lifelong Eso Guild Master. And someone who really used to love Eso and can now barely stand to look at it.

Luneca · August 29

Okay, then they should make all skills cost as little as WW skills.

Vaqual · August 29

@CatalinaWineMixer2 : have you tried arguments? They can do wonders when it comes to convincing people. I mean literally discussing concepts and numbers. I am sure you can do better than "no nerfs" and "gutted".

@WuffyCerulei : why do you think PvErs should be held to a different standard?

Major_Mangle · August 29

I agree, PvE doesn´t get enough balance adjustments. So many overtuned things due to neverending powercreep over the years. I´d argue PvE balance is way more out of line than PvP is. Hopefully ZOS can balance things more from the top --> down in order to remove the outmost extreme scenarios in PvE.

Zodiarkslayer · August 29

Ah well, this issue comes up every time, when some class or playstyle that is finally in a spot where it feels good again, sometimes for the first time in years, gets nuked by the Devs, because some PvP guy has found a way to dominate Cyrodiil. And everybody copies it.

PvP is the issue. Or rather that there is still a link between PvE and PvP, in the form of shared skills, passives and equipment.

It's like this for the last 10+ years and the DEVs didn't, don't and won't do anything about it. Ever. Because imagine the backlash even for the suggestion.

The Uninvited · August 29

As a primarily PVP player, I'll tell you something. It's not us, it's ZOS.

You see, what usually happens is this:

1. ZOS buffs class/skill line to OP levels.
2. PVP crowd response: Hey, maybe you could tone it down a little bit? Like say 15%?
3. ZOS response: Okay, we nerfed it by 50%. And you can no longer use that new mythic (that you've just farmed 3 weeks ago)
4. PVE crowd response: My character is ruined, blame PVP players!
5. PVP crowd response: No, not like that! We said 15%, not 50%...

Grasshoppermouse · August 29

The Uninvited wrote: »

As a primarily PVP player, I'll tell you something. It's not us, it's ZOS.

You see, what usually happens is this:

1. ZOS buffs class/skill line to OP levels.
2. PVP crowd response: Hey, maybe you could tone it down a little bit? Like say 15%?
3. ZOS response: Okay, we nerfed it by 50%. And you can no longer use that new mythic (that you've just farmed 3 weeks ago)
4. PVE crowd response: My character is ruined, blame PVP players!
5. PVP crowd response: No, not like that! We said 15%, not 50%...

This is the issue exactly. It's also why I'm so anxious about the demands to nerf werewolves, because I don't want my PvE werewolves ruined. I wouldn't mind so much if they separated out PvP and PvE and if they would, when nerfing things, work out what it would take to make the skill line more in line with other builds, rather than destroying it. I don't think when something's OP that it should be adjusted to be completely useless, it should still be strong after nerfs, just brought down to not completely dominate the game. It's not fun to have a build you work hard on, spent time and gold and crafting materials/farmed dungeons/whatever to get, only to have it become completely unusable.

Although, the one thing I have seen PvP players say, which annoys me and I do blame PvP players for this and not the devs, is that 'werewolf shouldn't be good because it's a one-bar build.' That's nonsense. It's a skill line in the game you have to level and put skill points into. Every single skill and skill line should be good in some context, because why else would you even have it?

The Uninvited · August 29

Grasshoppermouse wrote: »

Although, the one thing I have seen PvP players say, which annoys me and I do blame PvP players for this and not the devs, is that 'werewolf shouldn't be good because it's a one-bar build.' That's nonsense. It's a skill line in the game you have to level and put skill points into. Every single skill and skill line should be good in some context, because why else would you even have it?

As a PVP player, I agree on your point of view.

Oblivion_Protocol · August 31

Grasshoppermouse wrote: »

Although, the one thing I have seen PvP players say, which annoys me and I do blame PvP players for this and not the devs, is that 'werewolf shouldn't be good because it's a one-bar build.' That's nonsense. It's a skill line in the game you have to level and put skill points into. Every single skill and skill line should be good in some context, because why else would you even have it?

The argument isn’t that it shouldn’t be good because it’s a one bar build. The argument is that it shouldn’t perform twice as well with less effort than two bar builds, which it does.

Lucasl402 · August 31

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

I'm going to be very blunt when I say this: PVP balance should not the main factor in balance changes when it comes to combat and character mechanics over PVE balance. I've been playing this game seriously for over a decade now. I've seen a thousand metas, changes, balances, and more. For most of that time, PVP balancing almost always came first over PVE balance. It was only the past few years that I've seen a good, well-balanced adjusting of skills, passives, sets, and whatnot for both PVE and PVP. Mainly, I've seen Battle Spirit and targets being "Players" as the main ways of keeping PVP-based changes from affecting PVE too much or if at all. I can only praise such a good way to keep both main components of the game balanced and not overly affected by either side. However, U51 updates have me extremely concerned, especially (to no fault of any dev) after the layoffs. I've seen a few too many changes that were clearly made to appease very loud and whiny PVPers in the forums, with barely any consideration for how it'll affect PVE. Predominantly aggressively nerfing Werewolf, the brand new and fun way to play in ESO.

Let me state that I do also PVP a lot, and I very much understand the gripes and unbalanced builds like Power Lash DK in PVP for a long while. However, I also PVE quite a bit. I enjoy both aspects of the game. I very much enjoy doing DPS as a Sorcerer Werewolf, a magicka light armor build at that, because it's new AND fun! It's completely different from the same old cookie-cutter DPS builds that have been essentially the same for years. I cannot truly express my disappointment when I saw that Sorcerer Werewolf in PVE is going to be nerfed into the ground because PVPers complained the loudest about. However, the in total Werewolf nerfs, primarily the sustain nerfs, also mainly seem to stem from PVPers being extremely loud and taking up the most space in balance conversations. I'm just very disappointed, and a bit sad that a fun way to play the game will be affected so much by only one part of the game.

I will also make a huge point that Werewolf PVE builds already exclude 5 of the 7 classes from having viable builds that are competitive with the top Werewolf PVE build, which is Nightblade DPS. That will soon be 6 out of 7 classes, and again, with this being a new play style just for it to be nerfed into the ground because of PVP complaints just takes the wind out of my sail. I should also say that I have not seen a PVE werewolf tank once since the rework came out.

I know this might come off as a bit of a ramble, but I'm just so beyond tired and intolerant to the past combat balancing that clearly favored PVP balance over PVE. I just don't want the good and fair balancing that ZOS has done in the past few years to go down the tubes for one reason or another. It's not fair whatsoever to the larger of the two game aspects who are often not on the forums to complain or gripe about inbalanced things. Just can't have that old ideology back to make PVE changes so unfairly drastic.

Sets and skills are not nerfed due to PvP. They are nerfed because they are over performing.

Grasshoppermouse · August 31

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Sets and skills are not nerfed due to PvP. They are nerfed because they are over performing.

Overperforming where, though? Because something overperforming in PvP does not mean it's overperforming in PvE and vice versa. The mechanics of each are extremely different. There are stats that are extremely important in PvP, like crit resistance and detect, that literally do nothing in PvE. If sets and skills are nerfed for everyone because they're overperforming in PvP even though they're not overperforming in PvE, then it was nerfed for PvP.

Firstmep · August 31

Grasshoppermouse wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Sets and skills are not nerfed due to PvP. They are nerfed because they are over performing.

Overperforming where, though? Because something overperforming in PvP does not mean it's overperforming in PvE and vice versa. The mechanics of each are extremely different. There are stats that are extremely important in PvP, like crit resistance and detect, that literally do nothing in PvE. If sets and skills are nerfed for everyone because they're overperforming in PvP even though they're not overperforming in PvE, then it was nerfed for PvP.

What exactly got nerfed for pvp, in pve this cycle? I look at eso logs and Werewolf comfortably sits in top percentile in terms of dps, in fact it takes up the top 3 spots.

Dk got a slight nerf to sustain and healing which has very little effect in pve since hearth of flame will still heal for massive amounts in pve. Molten whip only got changed for pvp, power lash got a damage reduction to the lash itself but dk also got multiple overall damage buffs to compensate.

Bashcro was nerfed specifically for pve.

Sorc is getting an overall damage buff when using class skills and not an insignificant one and a slight sustain nerf.

Templar is getting an overall buff both in pvp and pve(moreso pve).

Non bash cro is getting buffed, ranged nb is getting buffed. I could go on.

Wuuffyy · August 31

Firstmep wrote: »

Grasshoppermouse wrote: »

Lucasl402 wrote: »

Sets and skills are not nerfed due to PvP. They are nerfed because they are over performing.

Overperforming where, though? Because something overperforming in PvP does not mean it's overperforming in PvE and vice versa. The mechanics of each are extremely different. There are stats that are extremely important in PvP, like crit resistance and detect, that literally do nothing in PvE. If sets and skills are nerfed for everyone because they're overperforming in PvP even though they're not overperforming in PvE, then it was nerfed for PvP.

What exactly got nerfed for pvp, in pve this cycle? I look at eso logs and Werewolf comfortably sits in top percentile in terms of dps, in fact it takes up the top 3 spots.

Dk got a slight nerf to sustain and healing which has very little effect in pve since hearth of flame will still heal for massive amounts in pve. Molten whip only got changed for pvp, power lash got a damage reduction to the lash itself but dk also got multiple overall damage buffs to compensate.

Bashcro was nerfed specifically for pve.

Sorc is getting an overall damage buff when using class skills and not an insignificant one and a slight sustain nerf.

Templar is getting an overall buff both in pvp and pve(moreso pve).

Non bash cro is getting buffed, ranged nb is getting buffed. I could go on.

It's really silly when this is how one argues.

You'll also completely ignore that only NB wolf is topping charts post nerf with 10k+ dps over any other class for wolf (as sorc wolf with static was trailing somewhat behind). Or that the sorc changes were a direct result of outcries for sorc PvP wolf viability, even post original nerf.

This is especially true given that their 'intended changes' were likely slated the week of PTS launch and everything else came only with feedback, feedback that was geared primarily over PvP.

And additionally you'll completely gloss over the fact that doubling and tripling costs doesn't just simply have 'no effect' on anything for PvE wolf despite the team clearly stating the changes were made and targeted for PvP specifically. You can argue 'health' all you want but if PvP didn't exist, it was made out that the nerfs wouldn't have needed to occur.

PLEASE don't make me fetch the proof for the 9,000,000th time. I'm simply tired of the fallacies for the sake of nerfs and nothing else. It's LITTERED throughout all of their dev comments for the U50 PTS patches and the U51 PTS patches.

*edit: almost forget the Ele Sus nerf that affects PvE for PvP especially. This is a bigger hit to PvE than most realize for IA specifically.

Wuuffyy · August 31

The Uninvited wrote: »

As a primarily PVP player, I'll tell you something. It's not us, it's ZOS.

You see, what usually happens is this:

1. ZOS buffs class/skill line to OP levels.
2. PVP crowd response: Hey, maybe you could tone it down a little bit? Like say 15%?
3. ZOS response: Okay, we nerfed it by 50%. And you can no longer use that new mythic (that you've just farmed 3 weeks ago)
4. PVE crowd response: My character is ruined, blame PVP players!
5. PVP crowd response: No, not like that! We said 15%, not 50%...

The people screaming the absolute loudest about wolf were never asking for 15%.

They are consistently and constantly asking for the complete removal of tools and 180 of purported dev vision. And are then unsatisfied and requesting further changes 'as a precautionary measure' even when that occurs through a PTS cycle.

You can scour any thread with a remote mention of 'wolf' or basically anything on the 'official ESO Reddit' to see this very plainly.

hollow_winds · August 31

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

You aren't the only one. I'll sum it up for you: "I died! Everyone in the entire game needs nerfed!"🤡 It's a clown show. My Warden is wrecking balled (Im a Warden Main), the WW and DK are getting gutted, Subclassing ruined our beloved characters and combat has never been worse in the entire history of Eso. The fact that they're ruining brand new refreshed characters speaks volumes about what we will now happen to the rest of them. They need to stop catering to an absolute minority. They won't be satisfied until they're playing with only themselves and an end of service date.

Everyone has had enough waiting. They never should have done Subclassing in the first place. It needs to be removed. It's the reason we have to have reworks. It's the reason so many people are walking away. Because their characters they've had for 10 years are garbage. This constant nerf cycle drives players directly out of the game.

People who keep saying, "The refreshes will fix your characters, just be patient" don't get that we are tired of hanging on. And it's very evident what will happen to every single one of them now after what's happened to the DK and WW. As it directly spills over to PvE. AGAIN.

Our Guilds are exploring Once Human. And it’s a direct result of this broken cycle of nerfs that never ends. If that game takes off for us, we are done. Im saying this as a day 1, 10 year Eso vet. I'm saying this as a lifelong Eso Guild Master. And someone who really used to love Eso and can now barely stand to look at it.

"They never should have done Subclassing in the first place." Agree 100%. Easily one of the worst decisions they've made, especially when I don't think anyone was even asking or pushing for it. We wanted what they seem to be doing now (Class mastery, re-worked skills), they could've even added more Scribing skills to keep classes/skills/builds refreshing. Subclassing (in my opinion) was the one thing that feels like drove away a good chunk of players, both PvE and PvP

madmufffin · August 31

hollow_winds wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

You aren't the only one. I'll sum it up for you: "I died! Everyone in the entire game needs nerfed!"🤡 It's a clown show. My Warden is wrecking balled (Im a Warden Main), the WW and DK are getting gutted, Subclassing ruined our beloved characters and combat has never been worse in the entire history of Eso. The fact that they're ruining brand new refreshed characters speaks volumes about what we will now happen to the rest of them. They need to stop catering to an absolute minority. They won't be satisfied until they're playing with only themselves and an end of service date.

Everyone has had enough waiting. They never should have done Subclassing in the first place. It needs to be removed. It's the reason we have to have reworks. It's the reason so many people are walking away. Because their characters they've had for 10 years are garbage. This constant nerf cycle drives players directly out of the game.

People who keep saying, "The refreshes will fix your characters, just be patient" don't get that we are tired of hanging on. And it's very evident what will happen to every single one of them now after what's happened to the DK and WW. As it directly spills over to PvE. AGAIN.

Our Guilds are exploring Once Human. And it’s a direct result of this broken cycle of nerfs that never ends. If that game takes off for us, we are done. Im saying this as a day 1, 10 year Eso vet. I'm saying this as a lifelong Eso Guild Master. And someone who really used to love Eso and can now barely stand to look at it.

"They never should have done Subclassing in the first place." Agree 100%. Easily one of the worst decisions they've made, especially when I don't think anyone was even asking or pushing for it. We wanted what they seem to be doing now (Class mastery, re-worked skills), they could've even added more Scribing skills to keep classes/skills/builds refreshing. Subclassing (in my opinion) was the one thing that feels like drove away a good chunk of players, both PvE and PvP

Subclassing blew the doors off the hinges for power creep. All the time and energy dev wise could've been dumped into class refreshes instead and we'd probably be near the end of that roadmap entirely at this point. Was also hugely detrimental to the endgame PVE community, but that's a different convo.

Luneca · September 1

madmufffin wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

You aren't the only one. I'll sum it up for you: "I died! Everyone in the entire game needs nerfed!"🤡 It's a clown show. My Warden is wrecking balled (Im a Warden Main), the WW and DK are getting gutted, Subclassing ruined our beloved characters and combat has never been worse in the entire history of Eso. The fact that they're ruining brand new refreshed characters speaks volumes about what we will now happen to the rest of them. They need to stop catering to an absolute minority. They won't be satisfied until they're playing with only themselves and an end of service date.

Everyone has had enough waiting. They never should have done Subclassing in the first place. It needs to be removed. It's the reason we have to have reworks. It's the reason so many people are walking away. Because their characters they've had for 10 years are garbage. This constant nerf cycle drives players directly out of the game.

People who keep saying, "The refreshes will fix your characters, just be patient" don't get that we are tired of hanging on. And it's very evident what will happen to every single one of them now after what's happened to the DK and WW. As it directly spills over to PvE. AGAIN.

Our Guilds are exploring Once Human. And it’s a direct result of this broken cycle of nerfs that never ends. If that game takes off for us, we are done. Im saying this as a day 1, 10 year Eso vet. I'm saying this as a lifelong Eso Guild Master. And someone who really used to love Eso and can now barely stand to look at it.

"They never should have done Subclassing in the first place." Agree 100%. Easily one of the worst decisions they've made, especially when I don't think anyone was even asking or pushing for it. We wanted what they seem to be doing now (Class mastery, re-worked skills), they could've even added more Scribing skills to keep classes/skills/builds refreshing. Subclassing (in my opinion) was the one thing that feels like drove away a good chunk of players, both PvE and PvP

Subclassing blew the doors off the hinges for power creep. All the time and energy dev wise could've been dumped into class refreshes instead and we'd probably be near the end of that roadmap entirely at this point. Was also hugely detrimental to the endgame PVE community, but that's a different convo.

Look at how little the time was before scribing and subclassing both became available to players (everyone). From the start it was obvious that players were going to plug holes and gain power that the classes were never designed to accommodate.

Then the "strongest classes" emerged, all of the each being stacked with "rule-breakers" that had their effects more pronounced on the current system precisely because that power that was limited before lost its limit, and builds with holes could have them sealed up.

What ZOS probably imagined was that players would choose skill lines based on skills and not buffs/power they provided. But that was never going to be the case when skill lines themselves aren't balanced .

For example, for what reason should an NB that doesn't slot Cloak not replace the Shadow skill line?

And when you run into cases like that, it's hard to believe that no one saw it coming at ZOS.

But it really points to an issue where the developers aren't looking at the game as a system, and aren't considering what their additions to the game are doing to the system.

Subclassing is not the only example of this issue playing out. Sustain changes in the past, changes to how AoEs work as a whole, Oakensoul (100% buff uptimes on many buffs offense-defense), Earthgore providing a free AoE cleanse and heal (anyone remember how that set affected PvP before it was nerfed?), etc.

And the result is that nerfs always follow because the addition to the system always has a profound effect that results in power creep, of course unequally, which then leads to a bunch of discussion about how balance sucks in the game in both PvE and PvP.

ZOS needs to set a CLEAR rubric that everyone, including anyone testing on the PTS can see so we can understand what they do and do not consider a problem. There's many interactions in the game that are performing in ways they likely were never meant to, but bar the obvious like using Static Reverbation and [classified] with another set to instantly zap over 50K of a tank holding block in PvP's HP or instant kill bosses in IA, it's hard to know exactly what is broken and what is not if it isn't obviously a programming bug or oversight.

Some of the most powerful "obvious" oversights being two sets or even class skills + set sharing cool downs, overriding cool downs on abilities for infinite procs in an instant, or being able to trigger effects in a chain that shouldn't be possible but is because they function the same way or in a similar fashion.

Beyond that, I actually have no idea what to report and what not to when playing the game and finding something broken.