LadyGP wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

hollow_winds wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I think many of us can agree that ball groups are currently too strong. For a long time, people have suggested various ways to curb their power, such as health caps, shield caps, or diminishing returns on stacked healing. While I think all of these changes could help address the issue and should be implemented, it seems that whenever they’re suggested, the ball group defense force shows up to argue that these changes would hurt pugs more than ball groups or that it would impact non ball group players too much.

With that in mind, I’d like to propose something that would specifically target one of the biggest advantages ball groups currently have: snare immunity.

Aside from the broader changes being suggested, I think ZOS should take a serious look at Snow Treaders and whatever banner script/interaction is currently providing effectively 100% snare immunity. Perhaps giving each a cooldown on the effect/immunity.

The reasoning is pretty simple: nerfing these sources of snare immunity would disproportionately affect organized ball groups far more than solo players, small-scale groups, or even loosely organized pug zergs.

Please leave your thoughts and suggestions.

Before that, it was rapids/purge/shuffle, RaT, etc.

I guess all I’m saying is I don’t think there’s some single handed solution to decreasing the power of a comped group.

The actual solution to it (this is large scale siege warfare we’re talking about), is to put together a better group. Cyro is meant to be won by the best groups.

Sorry, but the “solo/small scale” argument is old and boring, no one cares about the 1vX clip of the week narrated by Kristopher anymore. No one that’s been around cares to chase 4 people from Nik porch to the cliff when they aren’t even threatening the capture cause they have zero siege in their inventory. The only people that do, are not impacted by any of this, cause they likely don’t even know what snare immunity is.

People need to stop whining about ballgroups. They aren’t the problem.

At the same time though...majority of ballgroups are the ones always asking for nerfs to sets, skills, etc...that hinders their group instead of adapting like solo players do. You can't have it both ways. You want to continue steamrolling solos/pugs but then whine about things that solos/pugs use to wipe/hinder your group, just silly

I dont run in a group anymore, everyone quit.

Show me a BG crown on here asking for nerfs to sets.

I didn't say a BG crown.

Go back and look at the several threads about Azureblight. That wasn't solo/pugs asking for a nerf, it was nerfed because BG's didn't like what it was doing, so..it caught a nerf, lol. Same with Sloads, Plaguebreak, Harmony Cro...all nerfed because they were hindering BG's from their play style, so they whined and got what they asked for. There's two threads up right now even where a BG player is openly asking for Negates to catch a nerf along with the upcoming shield update.

You can say ballgroups aren't the problem but they sure do end up getting their way quite a bit.

I mean, this is just objectively wrong. Ballgroups did not complain about sloads. This was a single target DoT set, why would a ballgroup ever complain about that? Ballgroups were also the people who utilized harmony more than anyone and they weren't the ones to try and get it nerfed. Plaguebreak explosion does more damage now than it did before, it just doesn't proc off of NPCs, and with a 20s per person cooldown if you are fighting a ballgroup you can just apply it to other people in the ballgroup to do the exact same thing it otherwise would have.

As far as nerfing goes, I and many other ballgroups usually call for nerfs to what ballgroups are already doing, excess shielding, healing, etc. Ballgroups don't target things that single people or smaller groups are doing to them. But if someone comes on the forums, and argues in bad faith or is just completely wrong, like this comment I am replying to is, I will always call it out.

Let's use Azureblight then as an example. If you look at the threads and comments here that were posted, almost all of them literally called out BG's for asking for its nerf. It wasn't bugged, it wasn't broken, it was killing ballgroups and caught a nerf for doing so. It was such a poor decision that even the PvE players were calling for it to be reversed

Even if you want to use azureblight, the PvE people that were calling for it to be reverted were players who were not aware of how strong it was, or were and wanted to keep it that way. Do you think people relying on something doing a ton of damage and asking to have it back is reason to say it shouldn't be changed? This is a complete moot point. If I had a set in PvE that gave me 20,000 extra weapon and spell damage and it got nerfed and people went to the forums because they were upset it is not longer giving massive stats, does this mean it was a bad decision to nerf it? No, find a better way to make an argument, completely fallacious.

I saw those arguments as they were happening by the way, there was some person who kept coming back to one of those threads, and she was a PvE streamer, and she was being told how absurdly strong it was for PvE, she even got linked logs of all the best PvE groups running it, kept swearing that it wasn't, only to come back a month later and say "oh I got more information from PvE friends that it was in fact overpowered" even though the evidence was in front of her the entire time. Regardless, for PvP azure caused a strain on the server because of the way it had to be applied, so much so it even caused issues in BGs. I play a ton of BGs and they rarely ever have performance problems unless there is a specific issue causing them, like a specific map issue, addon issue, or interaction issue. Azureblight was changed multiple times because of the issues it caused with the server. Sure, people complained about it being OP, but it was, and I was part of a group that would run it, as a group, against other people, and it was just as overloaded. How you are saying it wasn't broken is beyond me, but the fact that you were trying to use 3 other sets you had no idea about tells me a lot about your position and your level of engagement with facts when it comes to sets in ESO.

And the people that complained about it being OP was who...? You know the answer but you're a known BG player so I understand your stance on trying to defend your play style from these types of posts and comments, something that may slow your group just a fraction deserves the nerf and anyone who doesn't run in a sweaty, comped group just needs to learn skill and build their own sweaty, comp group.

Here's the thing that most BG players fail to understand and to be honest, I'm not sure why. Solo players, PUGS and the like aren't even asking for the removal of BG's or it's play style. I've even said before that these comped groups SHOULD wipe uncomped solos and pugs, that's just reality. The issue with these groups and currently is that with the current meta comps you all run, it does in fact make you incredibly Godlike and unkillable in most instances. A group of 12 being able to withstand multiple siege weapons 40+ solos throwing everything at them is just downright ridiculous. I'm sure you'll disagree but as others have stated here, that's not healthy for the already dwindling Cyro population. Again, read around these forums, more and more players are either logging out or they just stop playing altogether and you can't really blame them and the solution to "Well they just need to build their own group" is just ignorant. Not everyone wants to build a strict comp build and run in a group. Ballgroups should exist sure, but as it stands, there's hardly any viable counter to them and if there is one other than "building your own group" then please enlighten us.

What's funny to me is I have a strong feeling that these modern day ballgroups wouldn't do too well compared to how ballgroups used to be, no pull sets, no insane shields and some of these group buff sets. They would farm sure, but they were also easier to counter and it took more skill than what we currently see within them

Yeah don't know who you are talking to with the second paragraph, there were ballgroup players asking for it to be nerfed as well as players in smaller groups who equally got ruined by it since even ballgroups would run it and stack dots on people. You are on a 2 star forum account telling me to "read around these forums" as if you have some wholly true understanding when there are threads of people who are apparently in ballgroups asking for them not to be nerfed. There is one in this very thread, and there are multiple in other threads. You have zero knowledge I don't have, trust me.

Stop throwing out complete non-sequiturs while quoting and trying to have a conversation with me because none of these points apply at all. If you want to have a conversation with someone else or your own separate point that's perfectly fine, but you started this thread by lying about the sets ballgroups tried to get nerfed and then came back to a single one in the end after attempting to use 4 different things, the person who seems as if they don't understand is you.

Do I think groups of 12 should be able to run around and eat damage from 40 solo players? YES if the group is good, and the solo players are uncoordinated. 40 solo players just tacking on random damage should not kill someone unless it is happening at the same time and to the same person, which is the issue with not being coordinated. If 40 people are hitting the same person at the same time, that person will die, even through shields. If you don't want to build your own group and perform well that's perfectly fine, but don't complain about those that do when your argument just includes zero facts and just your own opinion about what you think is and isn't balanced/ Ballgroups have weaknesses, and ballgroups for the most part only fight other ballgroups, or groups larger than theirs. The absolute biggest issue in the current meta, is being addressed in a very positive way, but guess what, even at 60% shield cap to 12 man groups, you still find people on the forums complaining because groups of 3 aren't affected. People will literally complain about anything as long as it beats them, that is reality.

It's honestly rather impressive how you respond to my points while still ignoring what I said, lol, I literally said in my point these ball groups should wipe pugs and solos, literally no one here is arguing that. I didn't even say they shouldn't be able to do that, all I said is that it's ridiculous because it is. Again, you're a BG player so I get you're going to defend your position no matter the argument, it only makes sense. However, almost every comment you reply with in several of these threads has been to just dismiss any and all arguments with "Well actually no...you're wrong...just build a comp group." and as I said (another part you skipped over) is that not every single PvP player wants to build a comp build. You want to keep killing off the Cyro population with your BG, by all means, again, I'm not even advocating for the removing of BG's, but when Cyro becomes nothing but Ballgroups fighting Ballgroups (which is where it's headed) then I hope it's worth it to you guys, seems kinda detrimental to me but to each their own

Don't waste your time. These BG defenders (and I use that term as someone who ran with ball groups for 6+ years) aren't trying to have an honest conversation with you. Very few will acknowledge, for the overall health and state of pvp, they need to be reigned in a bit. They are going to scream on the forums until the game is dead.. then cry dead game... well I wonder why.

Loggin in night after night to 2 or 3 ball groups per faction gating you and running circles around your entire faction for hours while you're gated isn't a healthy experience and you can't fault people for voicing frustration about that.

And no.. a ball group shouldn't be able to stand up to 40 people.. I don't care how disorganized the 40 person is. If they are putting dmg on the group, throwing negates, you have people on siege.. the ball group should have their health bars moving and at some point (a reasonable time frame) they should wipe.

Right now.. none of that happens. The only way 40 people can get a ball group to wife is if one of their shielders gets knocked out of the keep or gets pulled so far away from the group they lose the other cross shields.

-xcatguy

Luneca wrote: »

AllenaNightWood wrote: »

i think we can all agree except people who run ball groups is they are toxic and make Cyrodil battlegrounds and IC a horrible experience that pushes people away from wanting to get into these areas of the game and they have to go

It's not just ball groups, all of PvP is full of toxic people. I'll never understand why people in this game think it takes as much skill as an FPS or fighting game like Tekken. In fact, absolutely none of the "pro" PvPers here would dare appear in any of those games.

Those that have didn't come back to ESO for a reason. Because the balance we have in the game is non-existent and it's a completely skilless experience. And despite that to be the truth, you have playrs come here and defend their broken abilities, interactions, and power that puts them above everyone.

Then they pretend that winning proves something. I don't know about the rest of the people playing this game, but I'll say it again: I don't care what the mechanic is, if it gives me a massive advantage the opponent doesn't have and I can win without ever being threatened with a loss, then it's a skilless experience.

Whether that's a ball group, a sorc crutching on Streak, a DK whipping for over 30K in a bomb build, etc. it doesn't matter -- it's all skilless. And that's where PvP is right now, and why no one actually enjoys it and players continue to leave.

The release of only one reworked class and even the masteries were both terrible decisions that did nothing besides tilt the game in one direction and add power creep that solidified group power even more.

No one here is going to oconvince me that the DK rework wasn't a massive group buff. It literally added power in the context of grouping that wasn't there before and in addition to that even some heals function better as AoE to the point that you can run a ball full of DKs and there isn't much anyone can do about it.

In fact, there's players that complained about it on the forums. And in this same patch and very topic we are talking about snare immunity, which while a problem, even gone won't matter as long as HP shields exist, extreme burst, occult overload, all that nonsense -- anyone stepping in the game knows what's poorly about it except those that are using those "tools" to farm everyone else.

The game's current state sucks hard. It sucked a year ago, but on Live and after PTS it will be even worse.

ZOS literally didn't learn a thing. While taking in more input they simply do not understand that negative input on the PTS means that a change is a BAD one. There's no need to double down on something bad or bring other iterations of it.

Treaders were a problem on release and complained about for years. So then, why did alternate sources of snare immunity get introduced in the first place?

And you know what? We'll never get an answer from the dev team. So don't waste you time arguing amongst yourselves and racking up forum warnings. It's simply not worth it because you won't be effecting change.

Whoever makes the calls isn't going to join the debate at any point for them to explain to everyone how they think it's balanced for an entire system of the game to be ignored by a 1-piece , even if alternate sources of speed were not available (and they are).

That being the case, it means that there's little chance and hope for any real change to be done about what is really wrong with this game and it's core balancing issues. And you know it, I know it, even the people I disagree with all know the game is not balanced and it's in a terrible state right now and it threatens to kill PvP entirely in the game.

It's a shame that though everyone knows, no one wants to be honest anymore and instead defend their portion of the cheese block that's quickly melting.

React wrote: »

I do agree it would be good to do away with the mechanic of "you can't ever be rooted or snared", or at least give it a meaningful tradeoff.

With snare immunity skills, you are required to spend a GCD casting them, they are short in duration, and then you are still required to sprint to reach maximum speed in most cases (although groups are probably able to circumvent this in the case of banner via charging maneuver spam, celerity, and/or swift).

I think in regards to banner and snow treaders, the best solution would simply be that you cannot benefit from any movement speed multipliers while using them, but still allow for sprint to apply it's 50% modifier.

This would make it so players can still have their immunity to snares/roots, but at the cost of overall movespeed. Then if they want to move more quickly, they are forced to sprint. Sprinting prevents casting and stamina recovery, so they'll either have to dramatically increase their APM by tapping sprint on every single ability cast, or they'll have to suffer a reduction in their casting APM by maintaining sprint.

Seems like a pretty reasonable solution to me.

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

And no.. a ball group shouldn't be able to stand up to 40 people.. I don't care how disorganized the 40 person is. If they are putting dmg on the group, throwing negates, you have people on siege.. the ball group should have their health bars moving and at some point (a reasonable time frame) they should wipe.

Totally agree. And at the moment, this is not happening. You can have players on the ground & players hurling siege at these groups and…..nothing. And it is killing pvp.

Or players are learning to just stop fighting & go elsewhere. Most ballgroups on PSEU live to troll, so if no-one fights them, they move on.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Unfortunately I don't think ZOS will ever go down this route since the player base would never accept losing their free/low cost speed/mobility, even if it meant better performance (just look at one of the most common complaints about vengeance being everything feeling so slow).

hollow_winds wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

And no.. a ball group shouldn't be able to stand up to 40 people.. I don't care how disorganized the 40 person is. If they are putting dmg on the group, throwing negates, you have people on siege.. the ball group should have their health bars moving and at some point (a reasonable time frame) they should wipe.

Totally agree. And at the moment, this is not happening. You can have players on the ground & players hurling siege at these groups and…..nothing. And it is killing pvp.

Or players are learning to just stop fighting & go elsewhere. Most ballgroups on PSEU live to troll, so if no-one fights them, they move on.

This is my issue with them. They need to be killable at a certain point. I've seen some BG's just run and heal/shield through multiple coldfires and meatbags all while you have 40+ players throwing everything at them and still....nothing. I know BG players will defend this as "Well those 40 players are unskilled..." which is just silly. Majority of those players aren't building to a crazy strict comp and I would guarantee most of them are solo or in PUGS, of course they aren't going to be as skilled as the comped out BG, but it gets to a point where those solo players will eventually just log out or go somewhere else which leads to another problem. Now you have a BG sitting in an empty keep whining that no one will come and fight them, so what do they do? They follow the Zergs and go where the fights are which leads to the BG steamrolling that fight and the same solos they just wiped in their home keep

There needs to be a counter to these, a reliable one and right now, we don't have it. The solution shouldn't be "Just build your own BG" because then you have nothing but BG's running amuck in Cyro. BG players can defend this play style all they want but eventually you won't have anyone in Cyro left to farm because you're one of the biggest issues in Cyro currently in my opinion