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Update 51 PTS – Week 4 Summary
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »gammelscroll wrote: »I mean come-on team.
There are 2 reworked 'classes' (DK and werewolf) one of which (the DK) has 3, 4, 5 burst tools and their sustain is still looking like:
While the one and only 'sustained damage'/ only other reworked 'class' in the game looks like this in any actual PvP fight building sustain via a combination of reduction gear and tri-pots. It doesn't matter if I have 'Rampage' if I can't make it there or I tank my damage just to survive long enough to reach it:
I simply don't understand who could draw a conclusion that werewolf is 'healthy' after these 200-300% sustain nerfs unless they didn't want to see werewolf played commonly in PvP.
This let alone that pure-sorc PvE DPS for werewolf is no longer competitive after the adjustment to static reverb to only affect 'sorc abilities'.
DK is the only class that’s been reworked and WW is only a skill line under World like mages guild. Stop spreading misinformation and why ZoS has ignored all your spam / posts with fake data. They fixed a broken skill line and a broken DK class. Now it’s balanced and you need to move or take a breath outside of eso.
You really think DK got "nerfed" ? It will still be the most OP class in game, and DK will still face roll you in PvP.
They still have best burst in game, best sustain, best healing etc. We just dont have werewolf to compete against them.anymore.
And you sir, will still die alot in PvP just like before
What a load of nonsense. Templar on the live currently can kill DK, Sorc very EASILY destroys DKS, necro kills them too thanks to the instant scribe cc, onslaught, pet dumb damage and masteries, Nightblade can kill DKs with the right build and they don’t even need to use onslaught, warden can kill DKs too with aeries cry and the right setup, it’s only arcanist really that has it the hardest but can stalemate. Stop spewing nonsense.
Hes getting farmed by DKs on PS5-eu while on his WW and instead learn to play or adapt or anything he just started a witch hunt..
Makes sense the DK players would be okay with not having any competition. Y'all are all bad faith proprietors tbh.
Regardless of how Wuufyy is speaking on WW, it doesn't change the fact they are getting absolutely gutted as a playstyle.
And the fact people think they shouldn't be a playstyle, is kinda the problem with this shithole of a game where people think there should only be three playstyles.
I have a signature line. Clearly they're being "disingenuous" as usual however more importantly... yeah like that's verifiably not true.Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!2 -
coop500✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.Edited by coop500 on August 28, 2026 11:47PMHoping for more playable races.
Hoping the game and it's team remains alive.
BRING BACK MAGICKA WEREWOLVES TO PVE8 -
acanca✭✭✭Fair enough i didnt expect any more changes, see you guys in 3 months with hopefully ww cost readjustments and some buffs to underperforming classes like nb, arca etc. Gl in the meantime3 -
RedMamba✭✭✭The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.2 -
Abstraqt✭✭✭✭Will we see any updates on nightblade, obviously swallow soul has taken up a lot of space on the other weeks, but there have been a lot of valid points and feedback on the other aspects of the class. These include mastery passives, and other lack luster skills, equating to a severe unbalance in overall damage. It would be really great to have some clarification on this0 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
And you will notice that literally answers NONE of the questions we've been asking.
[snip]The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.
[snip]Bushido2513 wrote: »
Okay, you keep making this about moving the goalposts with proof when I've stated clearly why it's nothing like that. I LITERALLY said if he could post proof of his build having good sustain while also reliably being able to kill people that would inherently make it a good build. But you keep wanting to stick on the point of "You're just going to move the goalposts if proof is provided about the sustain matter". This is an excuse. You don't avoid posting proof because you're afraid of moving goalposts. You post it to shoot them down, to prove THEM wrong.Bushido2513 wrote: »
There is no opinion in this matter. Data does not operate on opinion, it operates on facts and information. And if someone is claiming something works, then objectively they need to provide the data that backs that up. Trying to say "in someone's experience" does not provide anything meaningful. People could hide behind this reasoning even if they have little to no experience in something. Someone's supposed "experience" does not matter if it is not providing objective proof of something. Experience without backing it up is about as useful as no experience whatsoever.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
You missed the point. You're confusing absolute and opinion.
His opinion based on his experience is that this will work and it's true because it's based on his opinion and expectations.
See if he says ok I built all into sustain and it works for me then you're going to say it doesn't have enough damage or defense. Then if he shows it he having those in a situation he deems appropriate then you're going to say well that's not what I was talking about and now all the sudden he's trying to build a spec that matches up to your expectations which is crazy to chase. That's why he's right in saying he doesn't have to prove anything to you, because at the end of the day he's not responsible for meeting your expectations of what playable is as long as he meets his own.
Now if he claimed that he could beat you in a duel or in a pve parse then he'd need to back up those claims but saying if you make these changes I think it would be playable isn't a claim that has to be backed up because it's not based on logic, it's mostly opinion if not feeling which really shouldn't be argued.
Sure, what works for one person might not work for another. In fact it's pretty well-known that you can give two people the same exact build with the only difference between their skill level, and typically the person with more skill and, yes, experience, will do decently better than the person with less skill. But that's not what's being debated here. What's being asked for is the barest hint of proof that his "advice" actually works. That he can make a build that has good sustain without giving up so much of everything else that the sustain is pointless because he can't deal, tank, or heal enough damage.
He's claiming that his build is still able to beat people on the PTS after swapping some stuff around but refuses to post proof. This isn't about moving goalposts like you seem to be making it out to be. Literally all any of us asking for proof are doing is asking for proof that he actually swapped his build around like he claimed to and was still doing fine in PvP. That is it. Nothing more. It's got nothing to do with wanting to say "oh well you have good sustain but your damage is low". Because if he has a build that can actually sustain and kill other players reliably then it would inherently mean the build is strong.
But he refuses. He refuses to post evidence that his so-called build even exists. He isn't providing proof that he's not just saying whatever sounds like it should work. There's nothing from him to back up that his build performs like he's claiming. Why would you believe someone making a claim like this without any proof that they even have the build they're claiming works? When numerous times Wuuffy has posted proof that the stuff doesn't work as claimed?
Also I'd like to bring up again that Mamba and Wuuffy were supposed to duel and Mamba never posted any proof of that either, despite claiming that Wuuffy showed up in a stalemate build. It's a pattern, if it needs to be pointed out. Say X thing and then offer no evidence of it. It feels like the PTS of U50 all over again, when people were submitting "proof" of WW being too strong in PvP but not being transparent in what they were or weren't using. It was mostly in regards to Signet (people not admitting they were using it but their CMX giving it away b/c of the various status procs) or using things like CoE. Incorrect and insincere data, along with just flat out bad faith lying, can do quite a bit of harm. It's why people ask for data with full transparency, not just taking a person's word on something because "trust me bro".
Ok I'm going to try to address this in good faith.
Here's the problem with trying to prove yourself in a situation like this. Ok so he shows you the build. Then let's say he shows you beating someone in a duel.
People will just give reasons why the example isn't valid. Or they will say okay well what about when I want to do zyz, bet you can't do that.
Okay I said good faith so sure maybe he's making it up. What I'm saying is that I've been in the exact position when people say show me and when the subject has layers it becomes a trap because either you're going to show them what works for you and what you're happy with and they just dismiss it because it wasn't what they wanted or you show them perhaps that it's a skill issue and they still dismiss it because they don't want to learn your different way.
What I'm saying is this, I learned a long time ago to not try to prove yourself on a nuanced subject because sometimes if you're happy and the other person isn't for whatever reason, is just best to leave it because either way it's an inconvenience that only takes time away from what you're enjoying.
Notice that even when I asked for more data I was clear that it wasn't for me but might help devs. I was giving my opinion as someone that does development.
Again I'm not saying this person isn't making it up , I'm saying I've been on his side of things and can relate to that situation where you just say to the person, sorry if you can't figure it out or be happy but I can't be inconvenienced to explain it or compare what makes me happy that doesn't work for you.
Of course we can get all lost in asking someone to try to prove their statements. But we could also just say ok well there's one vote for it's ok, now let's move on and just accept that he declined to share further details.
If we're looking for change then let's do so in a productive way vs badgering someone that clearly isn't interested in further helping. There's all kinds of reasons his opinion could be invalid in regards to ww, no need to really dig in on it I'd say.
I don't understand why you keep wanting to make this a matter of not posting because "the goalposts" might be moved. It's just saying that people are more than justified to not post proof of their claims simply because people might try to prove them wrong. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with providing proof despite that possibility. It's the whole dang point of the PTS. To find out what actually works and what doesn't.
This isn't about "proving yourself". We are on the Public Test Server. This is about testing and showing the results for both devs and other players to see and think about. What Mamba has been doing is literally nothing but saying over and over that "it's fine I can do it trust me if you can't you suck" without any proof. And that's the thing, too; he is actively insulting other players for "not being able to figure it out" or "not being as good" as he is. When you are not only making the same claim over and over but insulting the people who are asking for something as simple as a CMS screen...yeah, you probably don't have any meaningful data to show.
It seems that what matters more here isn't providing actual data and proof backing up claims. What matters more is that people don't have their egos threatened because of the possibility that proof they post gets questioned in some way. I'm not going to reply after this because it's not accomplishing anything. At the end of the day, no matter how much someone doesn't like it, we are on the test server. The entire point is to be testing things and then reporting what we find, not being rude, passive-aggressive, and evasive when asked for evidence of a claim.
Ok let me help you understand what I'm seeing here and why this doesn't work.
Let's have some fun and take out the goalpost argument completely. You use words like good and reliably. So those are the kind of words that leave room for argument. Instead I want you to post EXACT numbers of exactly what you want to see. Don't use any ambiguous language, be precise on exactly the build you want to see. Be precise on exactly the opponent you want them to beat to satisfy what you deem good or reliable.
Tell me every scenario in exact detail and exact numbers that you need to see for this person's claims to be valid in a way at which point you will no longer dispute and simply accept that they are right and you are wrong.
I give this as an example really and as a point. You want to take out the goalpost then you tell us exactly and I mean EXACTLY what you need to see using mathematical expressions and no language that can be interpreted.
Because when you use words that can have different meaning then we have to agree on that meaning and that's where the problem comes in. Get it?
At least if you provide this then I can respect that you're asking a question that isn't at all open ended or that can't be left to chance.
Then if they don't want to provide that evidence I can certainly see it as more of a failing on their part because you're no longer being less than precisely clear about what you are asking.
Evidence was provided. You refuse to accept the evidence.
As mentioned before, you are the one that stated you wish to receive evidence at that. My inclination was 'what exactly would they want' as I tagged the 'community representatives' for further insight and yet received no response.
The questions you ask are the same one I asked when an 'esteemed member of the community' came out to state that 'werewolf DPS was doubling everyone else's' during the werewolf rework PTS (U50 PTS) and come to find out that clearly wasn't true as Signet, masteries, and more from that single patch were pushing the bar all the way across the board. I was borderline harassed on the forums (people following me around any post/comment with off-topic attacks on character) and even in-game from people I had never even seen all because I questioned the integrity of data coming from individuals so very highly skewed towards an inclination ('nerf werewolf'), supplying a fraction of the information and verifiable logic I have here on this thread.
Regardless, uptimes and passives that werewolf maintained for years like Savage Strength (cut from 18% to 10%), Berserker Bleed uptime (4 seconds to 1 single second of DoT), and Claws (Condensed to 20 seconds with major and minor defile to 10 seconds and then reduced to 6 seconds) were affected (nerfed) off of essentially 'dueling parses' (which are NOT remotely as stable and replicatable as the one's I'm providing) because individuals who refused to provide info on gear, CP, info on build (all of which I have provided where requested such as 'Shapeshifter's, Imperial, my own stat sheet, etc.) posted CMXs parses and enacted change that was detrimental to the werewolf kit and apparently solved nothing in the dev's vision as the slapped us with 200-300% nerfs to sustain as a 'next-pass'.
So my point lies, if you don't believe in my data- source your own. In the entire time where you've posted in my thread over 50 times, you have not provided data of your own at any point but have rather provided antagonistic comments all the way through even Straw-manning to 'werewolf not a class' as if that changes anything on the topic 'should werewolf be balanced appropriately'.
A minute fraction of the information and data I've provided, spoiled:@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.
Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.
I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.
In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).
Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:
For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:
Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:
There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-
I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.
Did you just reply to yourself three times to bump the thread up? ROFL... that's reportable btw
[snip]
It doesn't explain the rationale behind doing a complete reversal of their entire vision with WW's rework.
It doesn't explain why they've throw Mag WW out the window after SPECIFICALLY CITING IT as one of the main reason for making the Skills so cheap.
It doesn't explain why they're going back on making WW focused on form sustain via Fury and Rampage rather than resource sustain.
It doesn't explain why the playstyle that was, again, SPECIFICALLY CITED as being meant to apply high pressure is being nerfed for...doing what it was reworked to do.
It doesn't explain why, despite the different ways they have of separating PvP and PvE, they just blanket nerfed WW instead of applying the changes to only be active in PvP.
It doesn't explain why something the devs claimed last patch they were "happy" with suddenly was something they were no longer "happy" with despite there being no major changes in how WW played between then and now (other than PvPers not taking their own advice about "adapting" and "gitting gud" like they tell everyone else when THEIR playstyle is at risk of getting nerfed). By your logic it WASN'T broken because they were "happy" with it last patch. Are you going to then move the goalposts and say WW was still "broken" if it gets nerfed again next patch? Because you're claiming it's "fixed" now that they're "happy" with it. Or is it only "fixed" when it's getting nerfed?
So you posting something that answers NONE of these questions again like it's supposed to mean something doesn't offer anything to the conversation. It doesn't offer a different perspective. It doesn't offer any kind of insight. It's literally being used to dismiss valid concerns WW players have and, again, is being used to try and antagonize.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 29, 2026 10:27AMPC-NA | Been around since closed beta | Alt account: Arunei PC-NA
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!
RP Characters:
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Vampire who really really REALLY likes likes learning Magick and also her Altmer husbando
Kaalhil Swiftstrike: Tiny shapeshifting monster hunter Bosmeri lady with enough sass to kill a dragon or ten
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Friendly healer with a coffee addiction and her own medical practice
Krisiel: Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things and is also a spy and ALSO a Werewolf
Niralae Elsinal: Young Altmeri woman with way too much Magicka and Vampire husbando
Slondor: TESified Slenderman, except lazier and has more of a thing for deals than Clavicus Vile does
Marius Vastino: Sarah's Imperial apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Lirawyn Calatare: Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Soliril Larethian: Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time7 -
HunterDawn✭✭✭When it comes to in‑game discrimination, certain ESO players and designers deserve praise👍. After all, just because a playstyle is niche with a small player base, these players’ gameplay experience can be sacrificed to entertain the mainstream playerbase.🤔😅The incredibly fun U51 update is right around the corner😊! Go renew your Plus memberships everyone😅!5 -
Zallion✭✭✭✭I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U441 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
And you will notice that literally answers NONE of the questions we've been asking.
[snip]The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.
[snip]Bushido2513 wrote: »
Okay, you keep making this about moving the goalposts with proof when I've stated clearly why it's nothing like that. I LITERALLY said if he could post proof of his build having good sustain while also reliably being able to kill people that would inherently make it a good build. But you keep wanting to stick on the point of "You're just going to move the goalposts if proof is provided about the sustain matter". This is an excuse. You don't avoid posting proof because you're afraid of moving goalposts. You post it to shoot them down, to prove THEM wrong.Bushido2513 wrote: »
There is no opinion in this matter. Data does not operate on opinion, it operates on facts and information. And if someone is claiming something works, then objectively they need to provide the data that backs that up. Trying to say "in someone's experience" does not provide anything meaningful. People could hide behind this reasoning even if they have little to no experience in something. Someone's supposed "experience" does not matter if it is not providing objective proof of something. Experience without backing it up is about as useful as no experience whatsoever.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
You missed the point. You're confusing absolute and opinion.
His opinion based on his experience is that this will work and it's true because it's based on his opinion and expectations.
See if he says ok I built all into sustain and it works for me then you're going to say it doesn't have enough damage or defense. Then if he shows it he having those in a situation he deems appropriate then you're going to say well that's not what I was talking about and now all the sudden he's trying to build a spec that matches up to your expectations which is crazy to chase. That's why he's right in saying he doesn't have to prove anything to you, because at the end of the day he's not responsible for meeting your expectations of what playable is as long as he meets his own.
Now if he claimed that he could beat you in a duel or in a pve parse then he'd need to back up those claims but saying if you make these changes I think it would be playable isn't a claim that has to be backed up because it's not based on logic, it's mostly opinion if not feeling which really shouldn't be argued.
Sure, what works for one person might not work for another. In fact it's pretty well-known that you can give two people the same exact build with the only difference between their skill level, and typically the person with more skill and, yes, experience, will do decently better than the person with less skill. But that's not what's being debated here. What's being asked for is the barest hint of proof that his "advice" actually works. That he can make a build that has good sustain without giving up so much of everything else that the sustain is pointless because he can't deal, tank, or heal enough damage.
He's claiming that his build is still able to beat people on the PTS after swapping some stuff around but refuses to post proof. This isn't about moving goalposts like you seem to be making it out to be. Literally all any of us asking for proof are doing is asking for proof that he actually swapped his build around like he claimed to and was still doing fine in PvP. That is it. Nothing more. It's got nothing to do with wanting to say "oh well you have good sustain but your damage is low". Because if he has a build that can actually sustain and kill other players reliably then it would inherently mean the build is strong.
But he refuses. He refuses to post evidence that his so-called build even exists. He isn't providing proof that he's not just saying whatever sounds like it should work. There's nothing from him to back up that his build performs like he's claiming. Why would you believe someone making a claim like this without any proof that they even have the build they're claiming works? When numerous times Wuuffy has posted proof that the stuff doesn't work as claimed?
Also I'd like to bring up again that Mamba and Wuuffy were supposed to duel and Mamba never posted any proof of that either, despite claiming that Wuuffy showed up in a stalemate build. It's a pattern, if it needs to be pointed out. Say X thing and then offer no evidence of it. It feels like the PTS of U50 all over again, when people were submitting "proof" of WW being too strong in PvP but not being transparent in what they were or weren't using. It was mostly in regards to Signet (people not admitting they were using it but their CMX giving it away b/c of the various status procs) or using things like CoE. Incorrect and insincere data, along with just flat out bad faith lying, can do quite a bit of harm. It's why people ask for data with full transparency, not just taking a person's word on something because "trust me bro".
Ok I'm going to try to address this in good faith.
Here's the problem with trying to prove yourself in a situation like this. Ok so he shows you the build. Then let's say he shows you beating someone in a duel.
People will just give reasons why the example isn't valid. Or they will say okay well what about when I want to do zyz, bet you can't do that.
Okay I said good faith so sure maybe he's making it up. What I'm saying is that I've been in the exact position when people say show me and when the subject has layers it becomes a trap because either you're going to show them what works for you and what you're happy with and they just dismiss it because it wasn't what they wanted or you show them perhaps that it's a skill issue and they still dismiss it because they don't want to learn your different way.
What I'm saying is this, I learned a long time ago to not try to prove yourself on a nuanced subject because sometimes if you're happy and the other person isn't for whatever reason, is just best to leave it because either way it's an inconvenience that only takes time away from what you're enjoying.
Notice that even when I asked for more data I was clear that it wasn't for me but might help devs. I was giving my opinion as someone that does development.
Again I'm not saying this person isn't making it up , I'm saying I've been on his side of things and can relate to that situation where you just say to the person, sorry if you can't figure it out or be happy but I can't be inconvenienced to explain it or compare what makes me happy that doesn't work for you.
Of course we can get all lost in asking someone to try to prove their statements. But we could also just say ok well there's one vote for it's ok, now let's move on and just accept that he declined to share further details.
If we're looking for change then let's do so in a productive way vs badgering someone that clearly isn't interested in further helping. There's all kinds of reasons his opinion could be invalid in regards to ww, no need to really dig in on it I'd say.
I don't understand why you keep wanting to make this a matter of not posting because "the goalposts" might be moved. It's just saying that people are more than justified to not post proof of their claims simply because people might try to prove them wrong. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with providing proof despite that possibility. It's the whole dang point of the PTS. To find out what actually works and what doesn't.
This isn't about "proving yourself". We are on the Public Test Server. This is about testing and showing the results for both devs and other players to see and think about. What Mamba has been doing is literally nothing but saying over and over that "it's fine I can do it trust me if you can't you suck" without any proof. And that's the thing, too; he is actively insulting other players for "not being able to figure it out" or "not being as good" as he is. When you are not only making the same claim over and over but insulting the people who are asking for something as simple as a CMS screen...yeah, you probably don't have any meaningful data to show.
It seems that what matters more here isn't providing actual data and proof backing up claims. What matters more is that people don't have their egos threatened because of the possibility that proof they post gets questioned in some way. I'm not going to reply after this because it's not accomplishing anything. At the end of the day, no matter how much someone doesn't like it, we are on the test server. The entire point is to be testing things and then reporting what we find, not being rude, passive-aggressive, and evasive when asked for evidence of a claim.
Ok let me help you understand what I'm seeing here and why this doesn't work.
Let's have some fun and take out the goalpost argument completely. You use words like good and reliably. So those are the kind of words that leave room for argument. Instead I want you to post EXACT numbers of exactly what you want to see. Don't use any ambiguous language, be precise on exactly the build you want to see. Be precise on exactly the opponent you want them to beat to satisfy what you deem good or reliable.
Tell me every scenario in exact detail and exact numbers that you need to see for this person's claims to be valid in a way at which point you will no longer dispute and simply accept that they are right and you are wrong.
I give this as an example really and as a point. You want to take out the goalpost then you tell us exactly and I mean EXACTLY what you need to see using mathematical expressions and no language that can be interpreted.
Because when you use words that can have different meaning then we have to agree on that meaning and that's where the problem comes in. Get it?
At least if you provide this then I can respect that you're asking a question that isn't at all open ended or that can't be left to chance.
Then if they don't want to provide that evidence I can certainly see it as more of a failing on their part because you're no longer being less than precisely clear about what you are asking.
Evidence was provided. You refuse to accept the evidence.
As mentioned before, you are the one that stated you wish to receive evidence at that. My inclination was 'what exactly would they want' as I tagged the 'community representatives' for further insight and yet received no response.
The questions you ask are the same one I asked when an 'esteemed member of the community' came out to state that 'werewolf DPS was doubling everyone else's' during the werewolf rework PTS (U50 PTS) and come to find out that clearly wasn't true as Signet, masteries, and more from that single patch were pushing the bar all the way across the board. I was borderline harassed on the forums (people following me around any post/comment with off-topic attacks on character) and even in-game from people I had never even seen all because I questioned the integrity of data coming from individuals so very highly skewed towards an inclination ('nerf werewolf'), supplying a fraction of the information and verifiable logic I have here on this thread.
Regardless, uptimes and passives that werewolf maintained for years like Savage Strength (cut from 18% to 10%), Berserker Bleed uptime (4 seconds to 1 single second of DoT), and Claws (Condensed to 20 seconds with major and minor defile to 10 seconds and then reduced to 6 seconds) were affected (nerfed) off of essentially 'dueling parses' (which are NOT remotely as stable and replicatable as the one's I'm providing) because individuals who refused to provide info on gear, CP, info on build (all of which I have provided where requested such as 'Shapeshifter's, Imperial, my own stat sheet, etc.) posted CMXs parses and enacted change that was detrimental to the werewolf kit and apparently solved nothing in the dev's vision as the slapped us with 200-300% nerfs to sustain as a 'next-pass'.
So my point lies, if you don't believe in my data- source your own. In the entire time where you've posted in my thread over 50 times, you have not provided data of your own at any point but have rather provided antagonistic comments all the way through even Straw-manning to 'werewolf not a class' as if that changes anything on the topic 'should werewolf be balanced appropriately'.
A minute fraction of the information and data I've provided, spoiled:@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.
Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.
I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.
In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).
Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:
For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:
Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:
There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-
I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.
Did you just reply to yourself three times to bump the thread up? ROFL... that's reportable btw
[snip]
It doesn't explain the rationale behind doing a complete reversal of their entire vision with WW's rework.
It doesn't explain why they've throw Mag WW out the window after SPECIFICALLY CITING IT as one of the main reason for making the Skills so cheap.
It doesn't explain why they're going back on making WW focused on form sustain via Fury and Rampage rather than resource sustain.
It doesn't explain why the playstyle that was, again, SPECIFICALLY CITED as being meant to apply high pressure is being nerfed for...doing what it was reworked to do.
It doesn't explain why, despite the different ways they have of separating PvP and PvE, they just blanket nerfed WW instead of applying the changes to only be active in PvP.
It doesn't explain why something the devs claimed last patch they were "happy" with suddenly was something they were no longer "happy" with despite there being no major changes in how WW played between then and now (other than PvPers not taking their own advice about "adapting" and "gitting gud" like they tell everyone else when THEIR playstyle is at risk of getting nerfed). By your logic it WASN'T broken because they were "happy" with it last patch. Are you going to then move the goalposts and say WW was still "broken" if it gets nerfed again next patch? Because you're claiming it's "fixed" now that they're "happy" with it. Or is it only "fixed" when it's getting nerfed?
So you posting something that answers NONE of these questions again like it's supposed to mean something doesn't offer anything to the conversation. It doesn't offer a different perspective. It doesn't offer any kind of insight. It's literally being used to dismiss valid concerns WW players have and, again, is being used to try and antagonize.
Actually, they did answer those questions, you just didn't like the answers.
Ww sustain is being nerfed beacuse they want rampage to be more impactful to the overall playstyle, and they realized that having near free skills makes a mechanic that removes your cost kinda pointless.
Now there's a bigger contrast between having and not having rampage up.
Mag ww, is not a thing. First off, they have been hybridising for years, and ww has 1 mag costing skill.
Ww still has fantastic dot pressure you just can't outsustain and tank 4 ppl while applying it. This is right here why they need to be very careful with future reworks, not Injecting insane powerr creep, beacuse when those specs are inevitably brought back down to earth ppl will think they are useless.
Now, I personally think simply removing masteries from wolf would have been a better way to start to reign them in, but this iteration will help make them more manageable.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on August 29, 2026 10:31AM6 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Since you specifically asked for feedback about the weekly summaries, I have one suggestion.
The Werewolf entry tells us that the team has read the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data and is "comfortable with where the Werewolf is at," but it doesn't give us much visibility into why the team reached that conclusion.
For feedback topics where there is a substantial amount of testing and disagreement, I think these summaries would be much more useful if they included one or two sentences about the reasoning behind the decision.
For example:- Is the team seeing sustain results internally that differ from the player testing being posted?
- Are the current costs primarily being evaluated around PvP, PvE, or both?
- What does the team intend to monitor once U51 reaches live -- Werewolf usage, resource depletion, DPS, PvP performance, class distribution, or something else?
I'm not asking for the combat team to write an essay or respond individually to every forum argument. But there's a large difference between "we've read the feedback and are comfortable with it" and giving players a small amount of information about why.
That kind of context would make these summaries much more valuable, especially when the conclusion is that a heavily discussed PTS change will go live without further adjustment.
Thank you for doing the summaries and for asking us how they can be improved.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom ignoring all the back and forth about WW for a moment, I hope this comment can be understood and worked on for future PTS Summary threads and not lost into the ether as this thread marches forward.
As they have said above, we don't need a full 10 page, 1000 word, essay on why the devs feel things are fine (or not), but a simple paragraph or couple of sentences outlining a few of the specifics as outlined above that the team were using to come to their conclusion one way or another on a change/adjustment would really help understanding the teams perspectives on things and would likely help to settle the back and forth, or at least give a specific point that can then be debated and elaborated on (hopefully in good faith by commenters).
There were also a few other points that I tried to raise throughout this PTS across various threads, but it seems they got lost amongst the debates:
1. The other (non-Sorcerer) classes that haven't been refreshed yet feel very restricted in how they can build and play due to not having a cushion for their sustain given to them via the class masteries like Sorcerer was, and no refreshed sustain ability like DragonKnight got from its refresh and this has been a big point of contention regarding class balance this patch. I did have some ideas I put forward somewhere, but not on hand right now.
2. The team has gone ahead and made some small blanket changes to specific masteries and abilities that were problematic due to very specific interactions, and while in principle the nerfs are fine for a temporary "band-aid" solution for next patch but it would be nice to hear from the team if they are going to look to address the specific problematic interactions directly or if it's just going to be left as is until all the refreshes are finished, since the blanket nerfs won't really fix the issues being complained about and will (in the long term) only drive more players into running these problematic builds because other less overpowered builds were hit much harder by blanket nerfs than these specific builds.
If someone from the team wants to reach out via DMs here on the forums, I can try to dig up my proposed ideas regarding point 1, and would be happy to directly provide the team with a short list of the specific issues that need direct targeting regarding point 2. (I might be late to respond due to time zones, but will do my best to respond asap should someone from the team wish to reach out via DMs.)
Thanks again for working on these summaries and looking forward to reading the post regarding Warden and future refreshes to see where the team is at.2 -
Faltasë✭✭✭✭✭The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.
It was only overpowered in PvP, which they could've fixed with battle spirit differentiations. Source: I play high end PvE, and most WWs in PvE in U50 were not hitting the highest DPS percentages in groups. They were hitting mid to high ranges, where so many more pureclasses were hitting above it(beams, DK, necro, nightblade, and warden). They didnt even reach elite ranges.
Also, the average joe is not automatically good with ww. I have been at the recieving end of many wws who simply dont know how to play it, and are bad at it. WW cant fix being new.
XBOX 2015-2019
PC-NA 2019-2022, 2025-present
Please keep fixing the combat. It's good to fix the combat.
Auri-El is the one true God.3 -
CatalinaWineMixer2✭✭✭✭✭What better way to hang up a For Sale Sign than nerfing the only refreshed characters we have into the ground. While all the people who called for this play un refreshed Sorcerers. And want it gutted. It's a neon sign that says, "All the characters we wanted you to look forward to that we ruined and took away over a year ago over Subclassing garbage will now be promptly gutted directly after refresh release" And it's spilled over into PvE. Again.
These changes have caused 700 of our people to start their own server on Once Human. If you want the rest of us to follow suit, just keep catering to the 2% of the game that kills any semblance of fun we had and will ever have in Eso. The nerfs have to stop. I will take our Guilds to another game before I see them destroyed. And what is and has been going on since U46 is destroying them.Edited by CatalinaWineMixer2 on August 30, 2026 2:09AM2 -
gammelscroll✭✭✭CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »What better way to hang up a For Sale Sign than nerfing the only refreshed characters we have into the ground. While all the people who called for this play un refreshed Sorcerers. And want it gutted. It's a neon sign that says, "All the characters we wanted you to look forward to that we ruined and took away over a year ago over Subclassing garbage will now be promptly gutted directly after refresh release" And it's spilled over into PvP. Again.
These changes have caused 700 of our people to start their own server on Once Human. If you want the rest of us to follow suit, just keep catering to the 2% of the game that kills any semblance of fun we had and will ever have in Eso. The nerfs have to stop. I will take our Guilds to another game before I see them destroyed. And what is and has been going on since U46 is destroying them.
Me and my guildies left too. We are trying out once human also.
Cant stand 90% DK cyrodil meta with shield stacking bad players1 -
Umbracat449✭✭✭So much howling!
Must be the full moon.
Edited by Umbracat449 on August 29, 2026 9:43AM1 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
The Elder Scrolls Online Team0 -
Gupitoos✭✭I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.0 -
Militan1404✭✭✭✭I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg1 -
Gupitoos✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
Buff up, apply major breach, jab and crescent ftw.
You can also use Blood for Blood with Kjalnar’s. Templar is far from being weak.Edited by Gupitoos on August 29, 2026 12:08PM0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
Well i know which streamer you are watching.
But I mean plar doesn't look terrible next patch, altho it's not exactly an offensive powerhouse, we mainly get tankier.Edited by Firstmep on August 29, 2026 12:08PM1 -
Gupitoos✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
Well i know which streamer you are watching.
But I mean plar doesn't look terrible next patch, altho it's not exactly an offensive powerhouse, we mainly get tankier.
It can slap people and you get nice weapon damage bonus from your passive now. It’s certainly not as weak as casual noobs here try to make it sound, just cos they don’t know how to play it. And guess what, it has unlimited sustain too if you build it right.Edited by Gupitoos on August 29, 2026 12:12PM0 -
Militan1404✭✭✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
You just telling out anime boops latest build and and trying to pull that of as proof.. dosent change the fact that they are all more tanky and all have more dmg. And have more sustain without even trying to build for it. And elemntal drain is a ice staff skill so thats for all classes, and not everyone wants to roleplay as Gandalf to be able to sustain
1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
You just telling out anime boops latest build and and trying to pull that of as proof.. dosent change the fact that they are all more tanky and all have more dmg. And have more sustain without even trying to build for it. And elemntal drain is a ice staff skill so thats for all classes, and not everyone wants to roleplay as Gandalf to be able to sustain
Asylum s/b is much better mag sustain than ele drain tbf. No breach on it tho sadly.Edited by Firstmep on August 29, 2026 12:15PM0 -
Gupitoos✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
You just telling out anime boops latest build and and trying to pull that of as proof.. dosent change the fact that they are all more tanky and all have more dmg. And have more sustain without even trying to build for it. And elemntal drain is a ice staff skill so thats for all classes, and not everyone wants to roleplay as Gandalf to be able to sustain
[snip] Templar is strong and you can also play as a runecamping chad to add onto your tankiness.
They shouldn’t have given templars anymore armor this patch. There’s a reason why Templar healbots that spam the cringe ulti which has one of the lowest costs too are unkillable and ruin BGS and the reason is their tankiness is just dumb.
Edited by ZOS_CouchTato on August 30, 2026 10:55PM0 -
Mr_Arce88✭✭✭Well, we're gonna have at least 4+ months of COMPLETE Dragonknight domination in PvP.
Maybe change game name to Immortal Dragonknights Online?2 -
Zallion✭✭✭✭I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
We aren’t playing the same game.
It lacks damage in the kit. It is fine with tankiness and survivability. And you aren’t one shotting remotely competent players on a Templar.1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Was hoping for another pass on balanced warrior, it feels a but too pigeonholey, the passive does have a fair bit of power behind it, but it being tied to slotting as many templar skills as possible feels a bit bad.
I still think the armor to spell damage scaling needs to be stronger or just removed and compensated elsewhere, as it contributes very little to the overall stats of most builds as is.
Still no mention of any arcanist adjustment is kinda sad, especially the cost added to ele sus is going to make this spec even harder to sustain. Currently the class set has a lot of power behind it, but it basically requires ele sus to push out decent damage in pvp.1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
And you will notice that literally answers NONE of the questions we've been asking.
[snip]The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.
[snip]Bushido2513 wrote: »
Okay, you keep making this about moving the goalposts with proof when I've stated clearly why it's nothing like that. I LITERALLY said if he could post proof of his build having good sustain while also reliably being able to kill people that would inherently make it a good build. But you keep wanting to stick on the point of "You're just going to move the goalposts if proof is provided about the sustain matter". This is an excuse. You don't avoid posting proof because you're afraid of moving goalposts. You post it to shoot them down, to prove THEM wrong.Bushido2513 wrote: »
There is no opinion in this matter. Data does not operate on opinion, it operates on facts and information. And if someone is claiming something works, then objectively they need to provide the data that backs that up. Trying to say "in someone's experience" does not provide anything meaningful. People could hide behind this reasoning even if they have little to no experience in something. Someone's supposed "experience" does not matter if it is not providing objective proof of something. Experience without backing it up is about as useful as no experience whatsoever.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
You missed the point. You're confusing absolute and opinion.
His opinion based on his experience is that this will work and it's true because it's based on his opinion and expectations.
See if he says ok I built all into sustain and it works for me then you're going to say it doesn't have enough damage or defense. Then if he shows it he having those in a situation he deems appropriate then you're going to say well that's not what I was talking about and now all the sudden he's trying to build a spec that matches up to your expectations which is crazy to chase. That's why he's right in saying he doesn't have to prove anything to you, because at the end of the day he's not responsible for meeting your expectations of what playable is as long as he meets his own.
Now if he claimed that he could beat you in a duel or in a pve parse then he'd need to back up those claims but saying if you make these changes I think it would be playable isn't a claim that has to be backed up because it's not based on logic, it's mostly opinion if not feeling which really shouldn't be argued.
Sure, what works for one person might not work for another. In fact it's pretty well-known that you can give two people the same exact build with the only difference between their skill level, and typically the person with more skill and, yes, experience, will do decently better than the person with less skill. But that's not what's being debated here. What's being asked for is the barest hint of proof that his "advice" actually works. That he can make a build that has good sustain without giving up so much of everything else that the sustain is pointless because he can't deal, tank, or heal enough damage.
He's claiming that his build is still able to beat people on the PTS after swapping some stuff around but refuses to post proof. This isn't about moving goalposts like you seem to be making it out to be. Literally all any of us asking for proof are doing is asking for proof that he actually swapped his build around like he claimed to and was still doing fine in PvP. That is it. Nothing more. It's got nothing to do with wanting to say "oh well you have good sustain but your damage is low". Because if he has a build that can actually sustain and kill other players reliably then it would inherently mean the build is strong.
But he refuses. He refuses to post evidence that his so-called build even exists. He isn't providing proof that he's not just saying whatever sounds like it should work. There's nothing from him to back up that his build performs like he's claiming. Why would you believe someone making a claim like this without any proof that they even have the build they're claiming works? When numerous times Wuuffy has posted proof that the stuff doesn't work as claimed?
Also I'd like to bring up again that Mamba and Wuuffy were supposed to duel and Mamba never posted any proof of that either, despite claiming that Wuuffy showed up in a stalemate build. It's a pattern, if it needs to be pointed out. Say X thing and then offer no evidence of it. It feels like the PTS of U50 all over again, when people were submitting "proof" of WW being too strong in PvP but not being transparent in what they were or weren't using. It was mostly in regards to Signet (people not admitting they were using it but their CMX giving it away b/c of the various status procs) or using things like CoE. Incorrect and insincere data, along with just flat out bad faith lying, can do quite a bit of harm. It's why people ask for data with full transparency, not just taking a person's word on something because "trust me bro".
Ok I'm going to try to address this in good faith.
Here's the problem with trying to prove yourself in a situation like this. Ok so he shows you the build. Then let's say he shows you beating someone in a duel.
People will just give reasons why the example isn't valid. Or they will say okay well what about when I want to do zyz, bet you can't do that.
Okay I said good faith so sure maybe he's making it up. What I'm saying is that I've been in the exact position when people say show me and when the subject has layers it becomes a trap because either you're going to show them what works for you and what you're happy with and they just dismiss it because it wasn't what they wanted or you show them perhaps that it's a skill issue and they still dismiss it because they don't want to learn your different way.
What I'm saying is this, I learned a long time ago to not try to prove yourself on a nuanced subject because sometimes if you're happy and the other person isn't for whatever reason, is just best to leave it because either way it's an inconvenience that only takes time away from what you're enjoying.
Notice that even when I asked for more data I was clear that it wasn't for me but might help devs. I was giving my opinion as someone that does development.
Again I'm not saying this person isn't making it up , I'm saying I've been on his side of things and can relate to that situation where you just say to the person, sorry if you can't figure it out or be happy but I can't be inconvenienced to explain it or compare what makes me happy that doesn't work for you.
Of course we can get all lost in asking someone to try to prove their statements. But we could also just say ok well there's one vote for it's ok, now let's move on and just accept that he declined to share further details.
If we're looking for change then let's do so in a productive way vs badgering someone that clearly isn't interested in further helping. There's all kinds of reasons his opinion could be invalid in regards to ww, no need to really dig in on it I'd say.
I don't understand why you keep wanting to make this a matter of not posting because "the goalposts" might be moved. It's just saying that people are more than justified to not post proof of their claims simply because people might try to prove them wrong. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with providing proof despite that possibility. It's the whole dang point of the PTS. To find out what actually works and what doesn't.
This isn't about "proving yourself". We are on the Public Test Server. This is about testing and showing the results for both devs and other players to see and think about. What Mamba has been doing is literally nothing but saying over and over that "it's fine I can do it trust me if you can't you suck" without any proof. And that's the thing, too; he is actively insulting other players for "not being able to figure it out" or "not being as good" as he is. When you are not only making the same claim over and over but insulting the people who are asking for something as simple as a CMS screen...yeah, you probably don't have any meaningful data to show.
It seems that what matters more here isn't providing actual data and proof backing up claims. What matters more is that people don't have their egos threatened because of the possibility that proof they post gets questioned in some way. I'm not going to reply after this because it's not accomplishing anything. At the end of the day, no matter how much someone doesn't like it, we are on the test server. The entire point is to be testing things and then reporting what we find, not being rude, passive-aggressive, and evasive when asked for evidence of a claim.
Ok let me help you understand what I'm seeing here and why this doesn't work.
Let's have some fun and take out the goalpost argument completely. You use words like good and reliably. So those are the kind of words that leave room for argument. Instead I want you to post EXACT numbers of exactly what you want to see. Don't use any ambiguous language, be precise on exactly the build you want to see. Be precise on exactly the opponent you want them to beat to satisfy what you deem good or reliable.
Tell me every scenario in exact detail and exact numbers that you need to see for this person's claims to be valid in a way at which point you will no longer dispute and simply accept that they are right and you are wrong.
I give this as an example really and as a point. You want to take out the goalpost then you tell us exactly and I mean EXACTLY what you need to see using mathematical expressions and no language that can be interpreted.
Because when you use words that can have different meaning then we have to agree on that meaning and that's where the problem comes in. Get it?
At least if you provide this then I can respect that you're asking a question that isn't at all open ended or that can't be left to chance.
Then if they don't want to provide that evidence I can certainly see it as more of a failing on their part because you're no longer being less than precisely clear about what you are asking.
Evidence was provided. You refuse to accept the evidence.
As mentioned before, you are the one that stated you wish to receive evidence at that. My inclination was 'what exactly would they want' as I tagged the 'community representatives' for further insight and yet received no response.
The questions you ask are the same one I asked when an 'esteemed member of the community' came out to state that 'werewolf DPS was doubling everyone else's' during the werewolf rework PTS (U50 PTS) and come to find out that clearly wasn't true as Signet, masteries, and more from that single patch were pushing the bar all the way across the board. I was borderline harassed on the forums (people following me around any post/comment with off-topic attacks on character) and even in-game from people I had never even seen all because I questioned the integrity of data coming from individuals so very highly skewed towards an inclination ('nerf werewolf'), supplying a fraction of the information and verifiable logic I have here on this thread.
Regardless, uptimes and passives that werewolf maintained for years like Savage Strength (cut from 18% to 10%), Berserker Bleed uptime (4 seconds to 1 single second of DoT), and Claws (Condensed to 20 seconds with major and minor defile to 10 seconds and then reduced to 6 seconds) were affected (nerfed) off of essentially 'dueling parses' (which are NOT remotely as stable and replicatable as the one's I'm providing) because individuals who refused to provide info on gear, CP, info on build (all of which I have provided where requested such as 'Shapeshifter's, Imperial, my own stat sheet, etc.) posted CMXs parses and enacted change that was detrimental to the werewolf kit and apparently solved nothing in the dev's vision as the slapped us with 200-300% nerfs to sustain as a 'next-pass'.
So my point lies, if you don't believe in my data- source your own. In the entire time where you've posted in my thread over 50 times, you have not provided data of your own at any point but have rather provided antagonistic comments all the way through even Straw-manning to 'werewolf not a class' as if that changes anything on the topic 'should werewolf be balanced appropriately'.
A minute fraction of the information and data I've provided, spoiled:@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.
Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.
I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.
In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).
Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:
For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:
Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:
There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-
I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.
Did you just reply to yourself three times to bump the thread up? ROFL... that's reportable btw
[snip]
It doesn't explain the rationale behind doing a complete reversal of their entire vision with WW's rework.
It doesn't explain why they've throw Mag WW out the window after SPECIFICALLY CITING IT as one of the main reason for making the Skills so cheap.
It doesn't explain why they're going back on making WW focused on form sustain via Fury and Rampage rather than resource sustain.
It doesn't explain why the playstyle that was, again, SPECIFICALLY CITED as being meant to apply high pressure is being nerfed for...doing what it was reworked to do.
It doesn't explain why, despite the different ways they have of separating PvP and PvE, they just blanket nerfed WW instead of applying the changes to only be active in PvP.
It doesn't explain why something the devs claimed last patch they were "happy" with suddenly was something they were no longer "happy" with despite there being no major changes in how WW played between then and now (other than PvPers not taking their own advice about "adapting" and "gitting gud" like they tell everyone else when THEIR playstyle is at risk of getting nerfed). By your logic it WASN'T broken because they were "happy" with it last patch. Are you going to then move the goalposts and say WW was still "broken" if it gets nerfed again next patch? Because you're claiming it's "fixed" now that they're "happy" with it. Or is it only "fixed" when it's getting nerfed?
So you posting something that answers NONE of these questions again like it's supposed to mean something doesn't offer anything to the conversation. It doesn't offer a different perspective. It doesn't offer any kind of insight. It's literally being used to dismiss valid concerns WW players have and, again, is being used to try and antagonize.
Actually, they did answer those questions, you just didn't like the answers.
Ww sustain is being nerfed beacuse they want rampage to be more impactful to the overall playstyle, and they realized that having near free skills makes a mechanic that removes your cost kinda pointless.
Now there's a bigger contrast between having and not having rampage up.
Mag ww, is not a thing. First off, they have been hybridising for years, and ww has 1 mag costing skill.
Ww still has fantastic dot pressure you just can't outsustain and tank 4 ppl while applying it. This is right here why they need to be very careful with future reworks, not Injecting insane powerr creep, beacuse when those specs are inevitably brought back down to earth ppl will think they are useless.
Now, I personally think simply removing masteries from wolf would have been a better way to start to reign them in, but this iteration will help make them more manageable.
[edited to remove quote]
It disappeared.
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691059/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-0#latest
Thanks!
Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!2 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
And you will notice that literally answers NONE of the questions we've been asking.
[snip]The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.
[snip]Bushido2513 wrote: »
Okay, you keep making this about moving the goalposts with proof when I've stated clearly why it's nothing like that. I LITERALLY said if he could post proof of his build having good sustain while also reliably being able to kill people that would inherently make it a good build. But you keep wanting to stick on the point of "You're just going to move the goalposts if proof is provided about the sustain matter". This is an excuse. You don't avoid posting proof because you're afraid of moving goalposts. You post it to shoot them down, to prove THEM wrong.Bushido2513 wrote: »
There is no opinion in this matter. Data does not operate on opinion, it operates on facts and information. And if someone is claiming something works, then objectively they need to provide the data that backs that up. Trying to say "in someone's experience" does not provide anything meaningful. People could hide behind this reasoning even if they have little to no experience in something. Someone's supposed "experience" does not matter if it is not providing objective proof of something. Experience without backing it up is about as useful as no experience whatsoever.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
You missed the point. You're confusing absolute and opinion.
His opinion based on his experience is that this will work and it's true because it's based on his opinion and expectations.
See if he says ok I built all into sustain and it works for me then you're going to say it doesn't have enough damage or defense. Then if he shows it he having those in a situation he deems appropriate then you're going to say well that's not what I was talking about and now all the sudden he's trying to build a spec that matches up to your expectations which is crazy to chase. That's why he's right in saying he doesn't have to prove anything to you, because at the end of the day he's not responsible for meeting your expectations of what playable is as long as he meets his own.
Now if he claimed that he could beat you in a duel or in a pve parse then he'd need to back up those claims but saying if you make these changes I think it would be playable isn't a claim that has to be backed up because it's not based on logic, it's mostly opinion if not feeling which really shouldn't be argued.
Sure, what works for one person might not work for another. In fact it's pretty well-known that you can give two people the same exact build with the only difference between their skill level, and typically the person with more skill and, yes, experience, will do decently better than the person with less skill. But that's not what's being debated here. What's being asked for is the barest hint of proof that his "advice" actually works. That he can make a build that has good sustain without giving up so much of everything else that the sustain is pointless because he can't deal, tank, or heal enough damage.
He's claiming that his build is still able to beat people on the PTS after swapping some stuff around but refuses to post proof. This isn't about moving goalposts like you seem to be making it out to be. Literally all any of us asking for proof are doing is asking for proof that he actually swapped his build around like he claimed to and was still doing fine in PvP. That is it. Nothing more. It's got nothing to do with wanting to say "oh well you have good sustain but your damage is low". Because if he has a build that can actually sustain and kill other players reliably then it would inherently mean the build is strong.
But he refuses. He refuses to post evidence that his so-called build even exists. He isn't providing proof that he's not just saying whatever sounds like it should work. There's nothing from him to back up that his build performs like he's claiming. Why would you believe someone making a claim like this without any proof that they even have the build they're claiming works? When numerous times Wuuffy has posted proof that the stuff doesn't work as claimed?
Also I'd like to bring up again that Mamba and Wuuffy were supposed to duel and Mamba never posted any proof of that either, despite claiming that Wuuffy showed up in a stalemate build. It's a pattern, if it needs to be pointed out. Say X thing and then offer no evidence of it. It feels like the PTS of U50 all over again, when people were submitting "proof" of WW being too strong in PvP but not being transparent in what they were or weren't using. It was mostly in regards to Signet (people not admitting they were using it but their CMX giving it away b/c of the various status procs) or using things like CoE. Incorrect and insincere data, along with just flat out bad faith lying, can do quite a bit of harm. It's why people ask for data with full transparency, not just taking a person's word on something because "trust me bro".
Ok I'm going to try to address this in good faith.
Here's the problem with trying to prove yourself in a situation like this. Ok so he shows you the build. Then let's say he shows you beating someone in a duel.
People will just give reasons why the example isn't valid. Or they will say okay well what about when I want to do zyz, bet you can't do that.
Okay I said good faith so sure maybe he's making it up. What I'm saying is that I've been in the exact position when people say show me and when the subject has layers it becomes a trap because either you're going to show them what works for you and what you're happy with and they just dismiss it because it wasn't what they wanted or you show them perhaps that it's a skill issue and they still dismiss it because they don't want to learn your different way.
What I'm saying is this, I learned a long time ago to not try to prove yourself on a nuanced subject because sometimes if you're happy and the other person isn't for whatever reason, is just best to leave it because either way it's an inconvenience that only takes time away from what you're enjoying.
Notice that even when I asked for more data I was clear that it wasn't for me but might help devs. I was giving my opinion as someone that does development.
Again I'm not saying this person isn't making it up , I'm saying I've been on his side of things and can relate to that situation where you just say to the person, sorry if you can't figure it out or be happy but I can't be inconvenienced to explain it or compare what makes me happy that doesn't work for you.
Of course we can get all lost in asking someone to try to prove their statements. But we could also just say ok well there's one vote for it's ok, now let's move on and just accept that he declined to share further details.
If we're looking for change then let's do so in a productive way vs badgering someone that clearly isn't interested in further helping. There's all kinds of reasons his opinion could be invalid in regards to ww, no need to really dig in on it I'd say.
I don't understand why you keep wanting to make this a matter of not posting because "the goalposts" might be moved. It's just saying that people are more than justified to not post proof of their claims simply because people might try to prove them wrong. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with providing proof despite that possibility. It's the whole dang point of the PTS. To find out what actually works and what doesn't.
This isn't about "proving yourself". We are on the Public Test Server. This is about testing and showing the results for both devs and other players to see and think about. What Mamba has been doing is literally nothing but saying over and over that "it's fine I can do it trust me if you can't you suck" without any proof. And that's the thing, too; he is actively insulting other players for "not being able to figure it out" or "not being as good" as he is. When you are not only making the same claim over and over but insulting the people who are asking for something as simple as a CMS screen...yeah, you probably don't have any meaningful data to show.
It seems that what matters more here isn't providing actual data and proof backing up claims. What matters more is that people don't have their egos threatened because of the possibility that proof they post gets questioned in some way. I'm not going to reply after this because it's not accomplishing anything. At the end of the day, no matter how much someone doesn't like it, we are on the test server. The entire point is to be testing things and then reporting what we find, not being rude, passive-aggressive, and evasive when asked for evidence of a claim.
Ok let me help you understand what I'm seeing here and why this doesn't work.
Let's have some fun and take out the goalpost argument completely. You use words like good and reliably. So those are the kind of words that leave room for argument. Instead I want you to post EXACT numbers of exactly what you want to see. Don't use any ambiguous language, be precise on exactly the build you want to see. Be precise on exactly the opponent you want them to beat to satisfy what you deem good or reliable.
Tell me every scenario in exact detail and exact numbers that you need to see for this person's claims to be valid in a way at which point you will no longer dispute and simply accept that they are right and you are wrong.
I give this as an example really and as a point. You want to take out the goalpost then you tell us exactly and I mean EXACTLY what you need to see using mathematical expressions and no language that can be interpreted.
Because when you use words that can have different meaning then we have to agree on that meaning and that's where the problem comes in. Get it?
At least if you provide this then I can respect that you're asking a question that isn't at all open ended or that can't be left to chance.
Then if they don't want to provide that evidence I can certainly see it as more of a failing on their part because you're no longer being less than precisely clear about what you are asking.
Evidence was provided. You refuse to accept the evidence.
As mentioned before, you are the one that stated you wish to receive evidence at that. My inclination was 'what exactly would they want' as I tagged the 'community representatives' for further insight and yet received no response.
The questions you ask are the same one I asked when an 'esteemed member of the community' came out to state that 'werewolf DPS was doubling everyone else's' during the werewolf rework PTS (U50 PTS) and come to find out that clearly wasn't true as Signet, masteries, and more from that single patch were pushing the bar all the way across the board. I was borderline harassed on the forums (people following me around any post/comment with off-topic attacks on character) and even in-game from people I had never even seen all because I questioned the integrity of data coming from individuals so very highly skewed towards an inclination ('nerf werewolf'), supplying a fraction of the information and verifiable logic I have here on this thread.
Regardless, uptimes and passives that werewolf maintained for years like Savage Strength (cut from 18% to 10%), Berserker Bleed uptime (4 seconds to 1 single second of DoT), and Claws (Condensed to 20 seconds with major and minor defile to 10 seconds and then reduced to 6 seconds) were affected (nerfed) off of essentially 'dueling parses' (which are NOT remotely as stable and replicatable as the one's I'm providing) because individuals who refused to provide info on gear, CP, info on build (all of which I have provided where requested such as 'Shapeshifter's, Imperial, my own stat sheet, etc.) posted CMXs parses and enacted change that was detrimental to the werewolf kit and apparently solved nothing in the dev's vision as the slapped us with 200-300% nerfs to sustain as a 'next-pass'.
So my point lies, if you don't believe in my data- source your own. In the entire time where you've posted in my thread over 50 times, you have not provided data of your own at any point but have rather provided antagonistic comments all the way through even Straw-manning to 'werewolf not a class' as if that changes anything on the topic 'should werewolf be balanced appropriately'.
A minute fraction of the information and data I've provided, spoiled:@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.
Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.
I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.
In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).
Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:
For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:
Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:
There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-
I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.
Did you just reply to yourself three times to bump the thread up? ROFL... that's reportable btw
[snip]
It doesn't explain the rationale behind doing a complete reversal of their entire vision with WW's rework.
It doesn't explain why they've throw Mag WW out the window after SPECIFICALLY CITING IT as one of the main reason for making the Skills so cheap.
It doesn't explain why they're going back on making WW focused on form sustain via Fury and Rampage rather than resource sustain.
It doesn't explain why the playstyle that was, again, SPECIFICALLY CITED as being meant to apply high pressure is being nerfed for...doing what it was reworked to do.
It doesn't explain why, despite the different ways they have of separating PvP and PvE, they just blanket nerfed WW instead of applying the changes to only be active in PvP.
It doesn't explain why something the devs claimed last patch they were "happy" with suddenly was something they were no longer "happy" with despite there being no major changes in how WW played between then and now (other than PvPers not taking their own advice about "adapting" and "gitting gud" like they tell everyone else when THEIR playstyle is at risk of getting nerfed). By your logic it WASN'T broken because they were "happy" with it last patch. Are you going to then move the goalposts and say WW was still "broken" if it gets nerfed again next patch? Because you're claiming it's "fixed" now that they're "happy" with it. Or is it only "fixed" when it's getting nerfed?
So you posting something that answers NONE of these questions again like it's supposed to mean something doesn't offer anything to the conversation. It doesn't offer a different perspective. It doesn't offer any kind of insight. It's literally being used to dismiss valid concerns WW players have and, again, is being used to try and antagonize.
Actually, they did answer those questions, you just didn't like the answers.
Ww sustain is being nerfed beacuse they want rampage to be more impactful to the overall playstyle, and they realized that having near free skills makes a mechanic that removes your cost kinda pointless.
Now there's a bigger contrast between having and not having rampage up.
Mag ww, is not a thing. First off, they have been hybridising for years, and ww has 1 mag costing skill.
Ww still has fantastic dot pressure you just can't outsustain and tank 4 ppl while applying it. This is right here why they need to be very careful with future reworks, not Injecting insane powerr creep, beacuse when those specs are inevitably brought back down to earth ppl will think they are useless.
Now, I personally think simply removing masteries from wolf would have been a better way to start to reign them in, but this iteration will help make them more manageable.
[edited to remove quote]
It disappeared.
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691059/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-0#latest
Thanks!
It was removed by a mod as a part of an unnecessary back and forth. Might get removed again who knows.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
And you will notice that literally answers NONE of the questions we've been asking.
[snip]The devs basically told us WW players to shut up and deal with it on Live. This was always intended, they need as much money and player retention as possible. Werewolf pisses off the average joe, especially in PvP but PvE too honestly.
So it's in their best interest to just upset like maybe a dozen people who actually give a *** about werewolf to appease what little 'mass' they have left.
Well they lost my sub, that's for sure. I won't be lied to anymore.
The average joe is who plays WW currently because it's so simple and broken...........That's why it got fixed and adjusted.
Werewolf – General [Feedback]: We have been reading the ongoing discussion threads about the Werewolf, including the feedback, suggestions, and combat parse data. We are comfortable with where the Werewolf is at on the U51 PTS, but we will continue to monitor balance data and feedback when everything is on the live servers. Thank you.
[snip]Bushido2513 wrote: »
Okay, you keep making this about moving the goalposts with proof when I've stated clearly why it's nothing like that. I LITERALLY said if he could post proof of his build having good sustain while also reliably being able to kill people that would inherently make it a good build. But you keep wanting to stick on the point of "You're just going to move the goalposts if proof is provided about the sustain matter". This is an excuse. You don't avoid posting proof because you're afraid of moving goalposts. You post it to shoot them down, to prove THEM wrong.Bushido2513 wrote: »
There is no opinion in this matter. Data does not operate on opinion, it operates on facts and information. And if someone is claiming something works, then objectively they need to provide the data that backs that up. Trying to say "in someone's experience" does not provide anything meaningful. People could hide behind this reasoning even if they have little to no experience in something. Someone's supposed "experience" does not matter if it is not providing objective proof of something. Experience without backing it up is about as useful as no experience whatsoever.Bushido2513 wrote: »
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
You missed the point. You're confusing absolute and opinion.
His opinion based on his experience is that this will work and it's true because it's based on his opinion and expectations.
See if he says ok I built all into sustain and it works for me then you're going to say it doesn't have enough damage or defense. Then if he shows it he having those in a situation he deems appropriate then you're going to say well that's not what I was talking about and now all the sudden he's trying to build a spec that matches up to your expectations which is crazy to chase. That's why he's right in saying he doesn't have to prove anything to you, because at the end of the day he's not responsible for meeting your expectations of what playable is as long as he meets his own.
Now if he claimed that he could beat you in a duel or in a pve parse then he'd need to back up those claims but saying if you make these changes I think it would be playable isn't a claim that has to be backed up because it's not based on logic, it's mostly opinion if not feeling which really shouldn't be argued.
Sure, what works for one person might not work for another. In fact it's pretty well-known that you can give two people the same exact build with the only difference between their skill level, and typically the person with more skill and, yes, experience, will do decently better than the person with less skill. But that's not what's being debated here. What's being asked for is the barest hint of proof that his "advice" actually works. That he can make a build that has good sustain without giving up so much of everything else that the sustain is pointless because he can't deal, tank, or heal enough damage.
He's claiming that his build is still able to beat people on the PTS after swapping some stuff around but refuses to post proof. This isn't about moving goalposts like you seem to be making it out to be. Literally all any of us asking for proof are doing is asking for proof that he actually swapped his build around like he claimed to and was still doing fine in PvP. That is it. Nothing more. It's got nothing to do with wanting to say "oh well you have good sustain but your damage is low". Because if he has a build that can actually sustain and kill other players reliably then it would inherently mean the build is strong.
But he refuses. He refuses to post evidence that his so-called build even exists. He isn't providing proof that he's not just saying whatever sounds like it should work. There's nothing from him to back up that his build performs like he's claiming. Why would you believe someone making a claim like this without any proof that they even have the build they're claiming works? When numerous times Wuuffy has posted proof that the stuff doesn't work as claimed?
Also I'd like to bring up again that Mamba and Wuuffy were supposed to duel and Mamba never posted any proof of that either, despite claiming that Wuuffy showed up in a stalemate build. It's a pattern, if it needs to be pointed out. Say X thing and then offer no evidence of it. It feels like the PTS of U50 all over again, when people were submitting "proof" of WW being too strong in PvP but not being transparent in what they were or weren't using. It was mostly in regards to Signet (people not admitting they were using it but their CMX giving it away b/c of the various status procs) or using things like CoE. Incorrect and insincere data, along with just flat out bad faith lying, can do quite a bit of harm. It's why people ask for data with full transparency, not just taking a person's word on something because "trust me bro".
Ok I'm going to try to address this in good faith.
Here's the problem with trying to prove yourself in a situation like this. Ok so he shows you the build. Then let's say he shows you beating someone in a duel.
People will just give reasons why the example isn't valid. Or they will say okay well what about when I want to do zyz, bet you can't do that.
Okay I said good faith so sure maybe he's making it up. What I'm saying is that I've been in the exact position when people say show me and when the subject has layers it becomes a trap because either you're going to show them what works for you and what you're happy with and they just dismiss it because it wasn't what they wanted or you show them perhaps that it's a skill issue and they still dismiss it because they don't want to learn your different way.
What I'm saying is this, I learned a long time ago to not try to prove yourself on a nuanced subject because sometimes if you're happy and the other person isn't for whatever reason, is just best to leave it because either way it's an inconvenience that only takes time away from what you're enjoying.
Notice that even when I asked for more data I was clear that it wasn't for me but might help devs. I was giving my opinion as someone that does development.
Again I'm not saying this person isn't making it up , I'm saying I've been on his side of things and can relate to that situation where you just say to the person, sorry if you can't figure it out or be happy but I can't be inconvenienced to explain it or compare what makes me happy that doesn't work for you.
Of course we can get all lost in asking someone to try to prove their statements. But we could also just say ok well there's one vote for it's ok, now let's move on and just accept that he declined to share further details.
If we're looking for change then let's do so in a productive way vs badgering someone that clearly isn't interested in further helping. There's all kinds of reasons his opinion could be invalid in regards to ww, no need to really dig in on it I'd say.
I don't understand why you keep wanting to make this a matter of not posting because "the goalposts" might be moved. It's just saying that people are more than justified to not post proof of their claims simply because people might try to prove them wrong. Plenty of other people don't have a problem with providing proof despite that possibility. It's the whole dang point of the PTS. To find out what actually works and what doesn't.
This isn't about "proving yourself". We are on the Public Test Server. This is about testing and showing the results for both devs and other players to see and think about. What Mamba has been doing is literally nothing but saying over and over that "it's fine I can do it trust me if you can't you suck" without any proof. And that's the thing, too; he is actively insulting other players for "not being able to figure it out" or "not being as good" as he is. When you are not only making the same claim over and over but insulting the people who are asking for something as simple as a CMS screen...yeah, you probably don't have any meaningful data to show.
It seems that what matters more here isn't providing actual data and proof backing up claims. What matters more is that people don't have their egos threatened because of the possibility that proof they post gets questioned in some way. I'm not going to reply after this because it's not accomplishing anything. At the end of the day, no matter how much someone doesn't like it, we are on the test server. The entire point is to be testing things and then reporting what we find, not being rude, passive-aggressive, and evasive when asked for evidence of a claim.
Ok let me help you understand what I'm seeing here and why this doesn't work.
Let's have some fun and take out the goalpost argument completely. You use words like good and reliably. So those are the kind of words that leave room for argument. Instead I want you to post EXACT numbers of exactly what you want to see. Don't use any ambiguous language, be precise on exactly the build you want to see. Be precise on exactly the opponent you want them to beat to satisfy what you deem good or reliable.
Tell me every scenario in exact detail and exact numbers that you need to see for this person's claims to be valid in a way at which point you will no longer dispute and simply accept that they are right and you are wrong.
I give this as an example really and as a point. You want to take out the goalpost then you tell us exactly and I mean EXACTLY what you need to see using mathematical expressions and no language that can be interpreted.
Because when you use words that can have different meaning then we have to agree on that meaning and that's where the problem comes in. Get it?
At least if you provide this then I can respect that you're asking a question that isn't at all open ended or that can't be left to chance.
Then if they don't want to provide that evidence I can certainly see it as more of a failing on their part because you're no longer being less than precisely clear about what you are asking.
Evidence was provided. You refuse to accept the evidence.
As mentioned before, you are the one that stated you wish to receive evidence at that. My inclination was 'what exactly would they want' as I tagged the 'community representatives' for further insight and yet received no response.
The questions you ask are the same one I asked when an 'esteemed member of the community' came out to state that 'werewolf DPS was doubling everyone else's' during the werewolf rework PTS (U50 PTS) and come to find out that clearly wasn't true as Signet, masteries, and more from that single patch were pushing the bar all the way across the board. I was borderline harassed on the forums (people following me around any post/comment with off-topic attacks on character) and even in-game from people I had never even seen all because I questioned the integrity of data coming from individuals so very highly skewed towards an inclination ('nerf werewolf'), supplying a fraction of the information and verifiable logic I have here on this thread.
Regardless, uptimes and passives that werewolf maintained for years like Savage Strength (cut from 18% to 10%), Berserker Bleed uptime (4 seconds to 1 single second of DoT), and Claws (Condensed to 20 seconds with major and minor defile to 10 seconds and then reduced to 6 seconds) were affected (nerfed) off of essentially 'dueling parses' (which are NOT remotely as stable and replicatable as the one's I'm providing) because individuals who refused to provide info on gear, CP, info on build (all of which I have provided where requested such as 'Shapeshifter's, Imperial, my own stat sheet, etc.) posted CMXs parses and enacted change that was detrimental to the werewolf kit and apparently solved nothing in the dev's vision as the slapped us with 200-300% nerfs to sustain as a 'next-pass'.
So my point lies, if you don't believe in my data- source your own. In the entire time where you've posted in my thread over 50 times, you have not provided data of your own at any point but have rather provided antagonistic comments all the way through even Straw-manning to 'werewolf not a class' as if that changes anything on the topic 'should werewolf be balanced appropriately'.
A minute fraction of the information and data I've provided, spoiled:@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.
Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.
I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.
In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).
Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:
For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:
Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:
There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-
I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.
Did you just reply to yourself three times to bump the thread up? ROFL... that's reportable btw
[snip]
It doesn't explain the rationale behind doing a complete reversal of their entire vision with WW's rework.
It doesn't explain why they've throw Mag WW out the window after SPECIFICALLY CITING IT as one of the main reason for making the Skills so cheap.
It doesn't explain why they're going back on making WW focused on form sustain via Fury and Rampage rather than resource sustain.
It doesn't explain why the playstyle that was, again, SPECIFICALLY CITED as being meant to apply high pressure is being nerfed for...doing what it was reworked to do.
It doesn't explain why, despite the different ways they have of separating PvP and PvE, they just blanket nerfed WW instead of applying the changes to only be active in PvP.
It doesn't explain why something the devs claimed last patch they were "happy" with suddenly was something they were no longer "happy" with despite there being no major changes in how WW played between then and now (other than PvPers not taking their own advice about "adapting" and "gitting gud" like they tell everyone else when THEIR playstyle is at risk of getting nerfed). By your logic it WASN'T broken because they were "happy" with it last patch. Are you going to then move the goalposts and say WW was still "broken" if it gets nerfed again next patch? Because you're claiming it's "fixed" now that they're "happy" with it. Or is it only "fixed" when it's getting nerfed?
So you posting something that answers NONE of these questions again like it's supposed to mean something doesn't offer anything to the conversation. It doesn't offer a different perspective. It doesn't offer any kind of insight. It's literally being used to dismiss valid concerns WW players have and, again, is being used to try and antagonize.
Actually, they did answer those questions, you just didn't like the answers.
Ww sustain is being nerfed beacuse they want rampage to be more impactful to the overall playstyle, and they realized that having near free skills makes a mechanic that removes your cost kinda pointless.
Now there's a bigger contrast between having and not having rampage up.
Mag ww, is not a thing. First off, they have been hybridising for years, and ww has 1 mag costing skill.
Ww still has fantastic dot pressure you just can't outsustain and tank 4 ppl while applying it. This is right here why they need to be very careful with future reworks, not Injecting insane powerr creep, beacuse when those specs are inevitably brought back down to earth ppl will think they are useless.
Now, I personally think simply removing masteries from wolf would have been a better way to start to reign them in, but this iteration will help make them more manageable.
[edited to remove quote]
It disappeared.
Source: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691059/pts-patch-notes-v12-0-0#latest
Thanks!
It was removed by a mod as a part of an unnecessary back and forth. Might get removed again who knows.
That part, I don’t think so. This is relevant to the conversation and nothing else attached. This comment may be removed but I can live with that as I’m simply replying to your comment.Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Militan1404 wrote: »Militan1404 wrote: »Militan1404 wrote: »I know we’re too late in the cycle, but please near future consider buffs for PvP Templar and Arcanist.
Temp just lacks the finishing power/damage in its kit that for the most part other classes can achieve relatively easily.
Arcanist specifically received nothing this patch but a bug fix and has been bottom tier basically since it’s shield and runeguard were gutted in U44
Templar isn’t weak by any means. They need to remove its tankiness first if they are going to give it any more damage when it can already 1 shot many people with the charge.
Lol what your on about? templar are much less tanky then DK, sorc and necro, ww, just without the sustain and dmg
With Elemental Drain and Honor the Dead there’s 0% chance you will ever run out of sustain. Ele drain lasts for 60 seconds too
Aetheric Lancer front bar, plenty of strong back bar and monster sets to choose from.
Mylenne Moon Caller Visage is very strong for Templar on pts now and adds onto your stam sustain.
You just telling out anime boops latest build and and trying to pull that of as proof.. dosent change the fact that they are all more tanky and all have more dmg. And have more sustain without even trying to build for it. And elemntal drain is a ice staff skill so thats for all classes, and not everyone wants to roleplay as Gandalf to be able to sustain
Quit crying, Templar is strong and you can also play as a runecamping chad to add onto your tankiness.
They shouldn’t have given templars anymore armor this patch. There’s a reason why Templar healbots that spam the cringe ulti which has one of the lowest costs too are unkillable and ruin BGS and the reason is their tankiness is just dumb.
This sounds like bait, and your only argument on how strong they are a based on anime boops latest video where he him self states that they are not in the best place.
These are the people and voices they’ve chosen to align with on nearly every matter as of late. I wouldn’t be surprised if mentalities like this were why they were so hesitant to provide any truly significant buffs to ‘underperforming’ classes this patch for PvP. Like not even turning NB’s crit damage mastery to a measly 10% from 5 which would just meet a normal class passive for crit damage at that point.
Could even be why they gave Templar a convoluted formula instead of ‘provide minor brutality to self when alone’ or something much simpler. (so there’s some strange and unnecessary ‘counterplay’ to their buff).
I’ve also heard the exact same rhetoric around necro ‘being better than DK’ from people on the ‘dueling scene’ for my server. Necro beating DK organically (I.E. claiming Necro has the better tools) and not skill-based this patch. Right.
Again, that’s a hunch but the ‘dueling scene’ on ESO typically brings this level of toxicity in my experience.Edited by Wuuffyy on August 29, 2026 2:14PMWuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!3