U51 Feedback Thread for Battle Spirit

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 27

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

Any chance of a dev comment if any adjustments are being planned to this could be included in the Week 3 summary?

Some update on this topic would be great before release. Both group gameplay and how it affects other players is a very large topic for the PvP community so it would be very sad to see no communication for this change.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · August 28

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Couldn't the damage shield scaling issue simply be addressed by splitting a 12-player group into three smaller teams and coordinating via Discord or similar platforms?
That way, "ball groups" could still maintain massive shields.
It would significantly nerf PUGs (pick-up groups) while potentially making ball groups even stronger.
Does this even make sense?
Instead of scaling, wouldn't it be better to just set a flat cap—say, at 60%?
Personally, I think there should be a 30% cap for both groups and solo players.

No, and I think suggestions like this show a misunderstanding of how a properly built ball group actually functions. You cannot just divide a 12-man into three groups of four and expect it to retain the same effectiveness while taking advantage of larger shields.

A 12-man split into two groups of six is at least plausible, but anything smaller than that is almost certainly a net loss because of how many sets, buffs, heals, and group-limited skills stop reaching the entire composition. Splitting into three groups would make the overall 12-man significantly weaker regardless of the extra shield size they gain.

Even splitting into two groups of six may already cost enough group-specific buffs and set coverage that it isn't necessarily worth doing under the current proposed scaling. Lowering the baseline cap to around 90–100% and then scaling downward from there would make that tradeoff much clearer and essentially remove the incentive for 12-man ball groups to split at all, rather than leaving it as a potentially viable workaround.

This assumes that ballgroups will religiously stick to 12m when they split which in most cases these days is very unlikely.
If a group isn't already running significantly lower than 12 they are far more likely to run more than 12 to retain the same power. (Just like old 24m groups back in the day would often run far more comfortably).

for example 2x 8m with 40k base hp still has a shield cap of 160% hp. 64k shields is more than enough to be as oppressive as current shields.

Again so things are super clear for ZOS the problems are (with shielding specifically there are other problems too)
1) Multi target/aoe Shields should not scale with HP (single target shields are fine to do so) (e.g. Soul Burst, Contingency, Bone Shield)
2) Grouping up should not be punished, Skills and sets which are over tuned in terms of the reward they provide by being in a group should be adjusted instead.
3) Hybridisation has caused main stats (stam/mag) to essentially be irrelevant and due to this HP Stacking is too rewarding. Especially because attributes and bonuses/enchants scale more favourably with HP.
For example tri-stat glyphs award free off-stat with no 'cost' since players are trying to boost their health anyway. They need to be nerfed so that you receive all 3 stats but at a reduced amount.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

So does this change just ruin Arcanist's self shield on their ultimate? Not even referring to the morph that shields others, only the self shield portion. It's a massive shield (about 2.5x your healthbar) but it isn't a "real" shield in that it only absorbs 60% of the damage you take and the other 40% goes to your health.

This shield needs to be excluded from this nerf, or at least the Sanctum of the Abyssal Sea morph. No reason a completely selfish shield should get nerfed, especially when it would c ok mpletely kill the damage proc on it.

This was the whole point of where I mentioned that AOE shields should be affected but not single target shields. Arc Self Shield from the ulti would be a single target but the group portion of it should be affected.

Additionally personally I don't think that shielding should be capped lower the higher your group size. There's already a restriction of 1 shield per type so its not the same as HoT stacking. What should be affected is the scaling so the shields aren't so large in the first place. AOE Shields should only be affected by max stats(stam/mag) NOT HP and the scaling should be lower than current values.

There should be some form of counter-scaling in this game regardless. After all these years, the incentives to run 12 players instead of any smaller group are simply too large, so group-size-based penalties should absolutely be a thing.

That said, I do think the base penalties should be lower, especially at the smaller group sizes, so the system doesn’t create an incentive for larger groups to simply split into multiple smaller groups to avoid the scaling.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · August 28

@ZOS_Kevin, can we get some clarification on whether any of these concerns will be addressed before this hits live? There seems to be fairly broad agreement that the shield penalties should be more meaningful for smaller groups as well, while still keeping the shield cap progressively lower as group size increases.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 28

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

TheAwesomeChimpanzee wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

Couldn't the damage shield scaling issue simply be addressed by splitting a 12-player group into three smaller teams and coordinating via Discord or similar platforms?
That way, "ball groups" could still maintain massive shields.
It would significantly nerf PUGs (pick-up groups) while potentially making ball groups even stronger.
Does this even make sense?
Instead of scaling, wouldn't it be better to just set a flat cap—say, at 60%?
Personally, I think there should be a 30% cap for both groups and solo players.

No, and I think suggestions like this show a misunderstanding of how a properly built ball group actually functions. You cannot just divide a 12-man into three groups of four and expect it to retain the same effectiveness while taking advantage of larger shields.

A 12-man split into two groups of six is at least plausible, but anything smaller than that is almost certainly a net loss because of how many sets, buffs, heals, and group-limited skills stop reaching the entire composition. Splitting into three groups would make the overall 12-man significantly weaker regardless of the extra shield size they gain.

Even splitting into two groups of six may already cost enough group-specific buffs and set coverage that it isn't necessarily worth doing under the current proposed scaling. Lowering the baseline cap to around 90–100% and then scaling downward from there would make that tradeoff much clearer and essentially remove the incentive for 12-man ball groups to split at all, rather than leaving it as a potentially viable workaround.

This assumes that ballgroups will religiously stick to 12m when they split which in most cases these days is very unlikely.
If a group isn't already running significantly lower than 12 they are far more likely to run more than 12 to retain the same power. (Just like old 24m groups back in the day would often run far more comfortably).

for example 2x 8m with 40k base hp still has a shield cap of 160% hp. 64k shields is more than enough to be as oppressive as current shields.

Again so things are super clear for ZOS the problems are (with shielding specifically there are other problems too)
1) Multi target/aoe Shields should not scale with HP (single target shields are fine to do so) (e.g. Soul Burst, Contingency, Bone Shield)
2) Grouping up should not be punished, Skills and sets which are over tuned in terms of the reward they provide by being in a group should be adjusted instead.
3) Hybridisation has caused main stats (stam/mag) to essentially be irrelevant and due to this HP Stacking is too rewarding. Especially because attributes and bonuses/enchants scale more favourably with HP.
For example tri-stat glyphs award free off-stat with no 'cost' since players are trying to boost their health anyway. They need to be nerfed so that you receive all 3 stats but at a reduced amount.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

So does this change just ruin Arcanist's self shield on their ultimate? Not even referring to the morph that shields others, only the self shield portion. It's a massive shield (about 2.5x your healthbar) but it isn't a "real" shield in that it only absorbs 60% of the damage you take and the other 40% goes to your health.

This shield needs to be excluded from this nerf, or at least the Sanctum of the Abyssal Sea morph. No reason a completely selfish shield should get nerfed, especially when it would c ok mpletely kill the damage proc on it.

This was the whole point of where I mentioned that AOE shields should be affected but not single target shields. Arc Self Shield from the ulti would be a single target but the group portion of it should be affected.

Additionally personally I don't think that shielding should be capped lower the higher your group size. There's already a restriction of 1 shield per type so its not the same as HoT stacking. What should be affected is the scaling so the shields aren't so large in the first place. AOE Shields should only be affected by max stats(stam/mag) NOT HP and the scaling should be lower than current values.

There should be some form of counter-scaling in this game regardless. After all these years, the incentives to run 12 players instead of any smaller group are simply too large, so group-size-based penalties should absolutely be a thing.

That said, I do think the base penalties should be lower, especially at the smaller group sizes, so the system doesn’t create an incentive for larger groups to simply split into multiple smaller groups to avoid the scaling.

Group size shouldn't be a factor for scaling with the exception of 'group sets' which get vastly more powerful the more players there are in the group and potentially HoTs to recieve a '1 per ability' limit too.

There's already a 6 player limit on most healing abilities per cast and shields specifically don't stack in the same way as HOTs.

If the scaling was adjusted to make players focus on pure stats instead of HP for bigger AOE shields then it would be less of a problem since the players wouldn't be as tanky with their amount of HP. (basically adjusting, Bone Shield, Shield Contingency, Shield Soul Burst, Fragmented Shield and other multi target / AOE shields)

When group size was 24 more groups volunteered to run at lower numbers to self balance. Now groups are capped at 12 weaker groups are at a larger disadvantage because they can't make up for skill with numbers in the same way they could in the past.

Additionally the main thing which is impacting how strong groups are is the population cap. It used to be much larger and facilitated much more outnumbered fights despite groups being between 8-14 normally. The majority of groups playing these days are usually against almost equal numbers of pugs or only double their numbers if they are 'lucky' to get a good farm going.

Compare this to the past when groups would be fighting 12 vs 50+ without the benefit of all the groups sets and buffs to grouping that have been added since then.

TheAwesomeChimpanzee · August 28

Completely agree that buff sets should have some form of downscaling with group size, but realistically, I don’t see that ever happening. Until then, that counter-scaling needs to exist somewhere else, and shielding and healing are the most obvious places to put it.

If the concern is that groups will simply split into two groups of 8 or 9 to avoid the harsher penalties, lowering the base cap and adjusting the curve would already be enough of a disincentive. A group is not going to split into two 8-mans, give up set efficiency, Rapids, and several other group-wide buffs just to gain something like a 20% higher shield cap. The tradeoff simply isn’t worth it. And at least on PC NA, I’m not even sure most ball groups have the numbers nowadays to consistently field two groups that large anyway.

I also agree that shields ideally shouldn’t scale with health, but changing that globally is probably unrealistic because of PvE. The same applies to group-set downscaling: PvE makes broad changes much harder to implement. That’s why the solution needs to be Battle Spirit-based.

Ideally, HoTs would also be limited to one instance per ability per target, but that has been suggested for years and never implemented. If that isn’t going to happen, then healing should also receive some form of group-size downscaling. There needs to be counter-scaling somewhere, because right now the benefits of increasing group size scale far more aggressively than the drawbacks, which until U51 hits live, don’t currently exist.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 28

I would argue that in PVE shields also shouldn't scale from HP because it further pushes the 1 tank 3 dd playstyle and reduces the effectiveness of healers in content (which pushes overall dps higher and trivialises content). It's fine for a tank to self heal/ self shield with HP scaling but not group heal/shield.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · August 31

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

The week 1 patch notes specifically mentioned

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

These numbers are not final and we are expecting to adjust them based on feedback.

yet we've not seen any response that feedback has been seen or adjustments planned.

madmufffin · September 1

So exciting that 4 man groups are still running around completely unkillable in GH right now and taking out entire zerg groups. Looking forward to that not being addressed in any way next patch with this change.

selig_fay · September 1

I think it's easier to set up exponential decay of shields, depending on their current number, than do somting, what heart groups. Idk, you online game btw.

My thinking, you need rework shields complitly, make debuff for med and heavy armor, but buff for light. Its be fair more

RedMamba · September 1

Zero communication from ZOS... I guess we are going back to how it used to be with them.

React · September 1

Really hoping we hear from the team about the shield change before the patch goes live. General consensus seems to be it is nowhere near impactful enough to smaller groups, and probably not impactful enough at 10-12 man groups to make a difference.