Is this a joke?

Arunei · August 25

thorwyn wrote: »

People getting unreasonably upset over others wanting to use the Sets and builds they farmed for and worked on and not just be told "lol well screw your build and make another one who cares".

Interesting...
When U35 went live and anihilated a good chunk of the raid scene, it was people like you who blessed the forum with recommendatons like "lol well screw your build and make another one who cares" and "learn to adapt".

People like me? Genuinely what are you even on about? I was against U35 buddy, maybe don't make baseless accusations to prop up whatever argument you're making. I NEVER tried to push the narrative you're attributing to me. Take this bad faith nonsense somewhere else.

Sallymen · August 25

What is the issue here? No one is forced to take the debuff. A challenge is suppose to make you adapt and change to overcome it. You can just simply not take the debuff OR change your build that is not reliant on heavy attacking. If you are complaining about being "shut off" than why are you doing content in the first place? There are multiple encounters in this game that sort of forces you to change your play style. Either do no take the debuff or change your build, that is literally all you have to do.

Give you a reason to use all those new transmutes crystals they are giving us to make proper gear and setup.

Valkanos · August 25

Sallymen wrote: »

What is the issue here? No one is forced to take the debuff. A challenge is suppose to make you adapt and change to overcome it. You can just simply not take the debuff OR change your build that is not reliant on heavy attacking. If you are complaining about being "shut off" than why are you doing content in the first place? There are multiple encounters in this game that sort of forces you to change your play style. Either do no take the debuff or change your build, that is literally all you have to do.

Give you a reason to use all those new transmutes crystals they are giving us to make proper gear and setup.

We all agree with what you’re saying: “change your build.” But “change your build” is not the same as “change the build.”

ZoS excluding players from vCR, for example, isn’t enough for all you “top players”?

Any Oakensoul player can parse 100k, and 100k is more than enough to complete vCR HM. Maybe not a trifecta, but to complete it? Yes, it’s enough. ZOS is already excluding players who like Oakensoul for no reason at all. They’re not being excluded because they have low DPS or don’t know the mechanics. They’re being excluded simply because they use a particular build.
Not a better build. Not a worse build. Just a simpler build. And they’re being excluded. isn’t enough for all you?

Players gatekeeping other players in Group Finder isn’t enough for you “top players”?
Now we’re going to exclude them from solo content too? Bro...

Arunei · August 25

Sallymen wrote: »

What is the issue here? No one is forced to take the debuff. A challenge is suppose to make you adapt and change to overcome it. You can just simply not take the debuff OR change your build that is not reliant on heavy attacking. If you are complaining about being "shut off" than why are you doing content in the first place? There are multiple encounters in this game that sort of forces you to change your play style. Either do no take the debuff or change your build, that is literally all you have to do.

Give you a reason to use all those new transmutes crystals they are giving us to make proper gear and setup.

No, challenge does not mean having to change a build. Challenge means taking a build that might not perform well given what you've selected and it being harder because of it. Not impossible. The whole REASON people wear a build into content is the USE IT, regardless what what the build is.

And again, why should you or anyone else care? This was literally a free MF for anyone not using specific Sets, HA builds, or LA builds. It didn't add any challenge, all it did was make specific builds impossible to use with that challenge.

Also what kind of argument is "why are you even doing X content if you only want to use the build you've spent time on"? Like...what? That makes no sense. People OBVIOUSLY want to do the content but if builds they've made prevent them from doing so...why do they want to do it? That's literally what you're asking.

The way Pulled Punches is now is an actual challenge. It impacts EVERYONE who uses it rather than just making certain builds impossible to use while it's active.

Valkanos · August 25

Edited to provide a more detailed argument.

And why don’t I see anyone asking for:

"Hey, ZoS, please keep trifectas only for the real ENDGAME players. Add a CAP of 180k minimum DPS".

This seems fair to me. Only the real endgame players can parse close to those numbers, right? So let’s ask for fairness.
I’ll tell you why most of you don’t want this: because that would exclude 80% of you too. That’s why you don’t ask for it. And that’s why you don’t like the idea.
Most of you aren’t actually better than everyone else. Most of you aren’t real ENDGAME players. You just want to feel better than others because you use 2bars, do a little more DPS than 1bar players (or maybe you don’t, how sad is that?), and absolutely nothing else.

If you want fairness, then let’s actually ask for it.
Let’s separate the real endgame players from veterans with some experience. Let’s separate the players who can parse 180k+ from those who parse 130k with a Beam, HA build, the normal parse numbers for most players. Let’s separate the big boys from the small ones.
Or do you really believe you’re on the same level as the real endgame players? Just wake up. You’re not even close.
Yet here you are, happily asking ZoS to exclude players who are 100% in the same position as you are, where the only difference is one thing: 1bar vs. 2bar Absolutely nothing else.

Dax_Draconis · August 25

AzuraFan wrote: »

So yeah, another feature that I was excited about that I won't be able to complete (can't complete all the achievements), and that will offer me overland gear. Woohoo! All the cool rewards go to the sweaties.

So, the solo dungeons won't even be giving the usual dungeon gear like the group versions do?

AzuraFan · August 25

Dax_Draconis wrote: »

So, the solo dungeons won't even be giving the usual dungeon gear like the group versions do?

Actually, yes. I wasn't aware of this in my previous posts, but they updated the rewards based on feedback just this week. Before then, the answer would have been no. So that's a positive improvement for that, but unless you use misfortunes, you'll be locked out of some other rewards and achievements.

Reginald_leBlem · August 25

Valkanos wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

[...] heavy attack enthusiasts already don't have access to a wide variety of achievements unless other players do all the work. [...]

Oh, thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that HA players are allowed to play the game, as long as they don't get too ambitious with those nasty achievements they get for actually playing the game. How generous!

I'm aware of a team that did an all-HA PB, although I don't remember if it was pre or post nerf.
I'm not aware of any all- HA teams that have done the newer trials, but if you have a team that has done a newer trifecta by all means share it.
Newer trials, for better or worse, have a heavy emphasis on damage. If you don't kill the reefs or bridges in DSR within the alloted amount of time, you wipe. If you don't manage to kill the adds or the boss on Ansuul hm before she banishes the third person on a timer, you wipe. OChm probably has a dozen dps checks I can't be bothered to learn about.

A HA build has a lower ceiling than a typical build. That's fine for most of the PVE content, but it does mean that a team of people JUST using heavy attack builds might struggle to meet the DPS checks.
And typically, when someone refers to a carry (derogatory) it means that a team comprised of other players at that level of damage/skill would not be able to clear.

Not every build is suitable for all content. We know this, which is why we bring different builds into pvp vrs sunspire. You seem to think that HA should be a one size fits all button, and that's not really how this game works. If you want the team to hit some of these newer dps checks you have to bring a build with a higher damage ceiling.

Some achievements are only accessible to people willing to adapt how they play the game. They are designed to chased and designed to be a challenge. I don't think that is a bad thing.

BardokRedSnow · August 25

i thought about this for a few seconds and realized that heavy attack builds are often just proc builds that trigger off heavy attacks and the actual heavy attack on all of them isnt necessarily the bulk of the damage. There's tons of em.

I have pyrebrand on my solo IA build, easily gets past level 4, heavy attacks are part of the kit and if I wanted to i could make it a one bar heavy build. This debuff would have very little effect on it because the proc itself.

All a heavy attack player would need to do is switch out some sets and lean into the proc damage.

This is not at all an issue, adapt.

Valkanos · August 25

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

I'm aware of a team that did an all-HA PB, although I don't remember if it was pre or post nerf.
I'm not aware of any all- HA teams that have done the newer trials, but if you have a team that has done a newer trifecta by all means share it.
Newer trials, for better or worse, have a heavy emphasis on damage. If you don't kill the reefs or bridges in DSR within the alloted amount of time, you wipe. If you don't manage to kill the adds or the boss on Ansuul hm before she banishes the third person on a timer, you wipe. OChm probably has a dozen dps checks I can't be bothered to learn about.

A HA build has a lower ceiling than a typical build. That's fine for most of the PVE content, but it does mean that a team of people JUST using heavy attack builds might struggle to meet the DPS checks.
And typically, when someone refers to a carry (derogatory) it means that a team comprised of other players at that level of damage/skill would not be able to clear.

Not every build is suitable for all content. We know this, which is why we bring different builds into pvp vrs sunspire. You seem to think that HA should be a one size fits all button, and that's not really how this game works. If you want the team to hit some of these newer dps checks you have to bring a build with a higher damage ceiling.

Some achievements are only accessible to people willing to adapt how they play the game. They are designed to chased and designed to be a challenge. I don't think that is a bad thing.

I was waiting for something like that, so I edited >> my comment<<. There’s absolutely nothing else I can say...

spartaxoxo · August 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

i thought about this for a few seconds and realized that heavy attack builds are often just proc builds that trigger off heavy attacks and the actual heavy attack on all of them isnt necessarily the bulk of the damage. There's tons of em.

I have pyrebrand on my solo IA build, easily gets past level 4, heavy attacks are part of the kit and if I wanted to i could make it a one bar heavy build. This debuff would have very little effect on it because the proc itself.

All a heavy attack player would need to do is switch out some sets and lean into the proc damage.

This is not at all an issue, adapt.

Disabling the damage meant that none of the procs worked. So no, that's not what this meant. That's why it was changed. This modifier completely invalidated entire playstyles and that's why it was changed to instead be a 30% nerf on all damage.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 25

Valkanos wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

thedocbwarren wrote: »

How would someone even be able to participate if you can't damage something, run around as a rodeo clown?

Hostely, I don't know why they don't separate PvE and PvP? Completely mental! Clearly two different games and different needs. -sigh- when is ES: VI coming out???

Use skills?
It's only nerfing light and heavy attacks, not skills. A brutal version of Velothi mythic

Damn... no one thought of that. Seems like only you and the developers have found the perfect solution for every HA build.

It's a challenge. An entirely optional challenge. If you want to complete it, use a different build? Pretty standard (almost a given actually) that challenges require changing your playstyle or build, not just in ESO but in any game.

Valkanos · August 25

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

thedocbwarren wrote: »

How would someone even be able to participate if you can't damage something, run around as a rodeo clown?

Hostely, I don't know why they don't separate PvE and PvP? Completely mental! Clearly two different games and different needs. -sigh- when is ES: VI coming out???

Use skills?
It's only nerfing light and heavy attacks, not skills. A brutal version of Velothi mythic

Damn... no one thought of that. Seems like only you and the developers have found the perfect solution for every HA build.

It's a challenge. An entirely optional challenge. If you want to complete it, use a different build? Pretty standard (almost a given actually) that challenges require changing your playstyle or build, not just in ESO but in any game.

Let me ask you this.

I have 2 GHs: one earned on a HA build and another on a 2bar build. Someone else in this topic has 7xGH.
What does that mean to you?
Are we both at the same level because we both have GH Tittle? I completed the content, and he completed it too. So, we both receive the same title and, from the outside, there is no distinction between what we actually accomplished.

If you say yes, then I completely disagree. We are not at the same level, not even close. 7xGH demonstrate a much greater amount of experience with that specific type of content than my two do.
But if you say no, then I have another question:
If we aren't necessarily at the same level, why do we both receive the exact same title?
Is that fair to him? Is it fair to me?

And this is exactly where I think the discussion should go.
Instead of trying to distinguish players based on which build they use, why don't we create meaningful distinctions based on what players can actually do?

If someone has 7xGH, 10xGS, or whatever number genuinely represents exceptional endgame experience, then let's recognize that. Give those players something that actually distinguishes them from someone who has only completed one or two.
But don't look at someone using a 1bar HA build and assume they're automatically inferior to someone using 2 bars.
Distinguish the players, not the builds.
If you want to separate the truly exceptional endgame players from casual or less-experienced players like me, I'm completely fine with that. In fact, I think that's a much better system.
But the distinction should be based on what players can actually achieved, not on whether we chose to play with 1bar, 2bars, a HA build, Beam, or anything else. Because a build is a tool.

The player is the one accomplishing the content.

Arunei · August 25

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

[...] heavy attack enthusiasts already don't have access to a wide variety of achievements unless other players do all the work. [...]

Oh, thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that HA players are allowed to play the game, as long as they don't get too ambitious with those nasty achievements they get for actually playing the game. How generous!

I'm aware of a team that did an all-HA PB, although I don't remember if it was pre or post nerf.
I'm not aware of any all- HA teams that have done the newer trials, but if you have a team that has done a newer trifecta by all means share it.
Newer trials, for better or worse, have a heavy emphasis on damage. If you don't kill the reefs or bridges in DSR within the alloted amount of time, you wipe. If you don't manage to kill the adds or the boss on Ansuul hm before she banishes the third person on a timer, you wipe. OChm probably has a dozen dps checks I can't be bothered to learn about.

A HA build has a lower ceiling than a typical build. That's fine for most of the PVE content, but it does mean that a team of people JUST using heavy attack builds might struggle to meet the DPS checks.
And typically, when someone refers to a carry (derogatory) it means that a team comprised of other players at that level of damage/skill would not be able to clear.

Not every build is suitable for all content. We know this, which is why we bring different builds into pvp vrs sunspire. You seem to think that HA should be a one size fits all button, and that's not really how this game works. If you want the team to hit some of these newer dps checks you have to bring a build with a higher damage ceiling.

Some achievements are only accessible to people willing to adapt how they play the game. They are designed to chased and designed to be a challenge. I don't think that is a bad thing.

Xynode regularly does livestreams where entire teams of his Lazy Sorc (1bar HA builds) go into Vet Dungeons and Trials, do HM, and typically manage clears even if there are some wipes along the way. Usually the only ones who are using his Sorc build during those streams are the Tank/Healer off-Tank/Healer. And sometimes these are people who've never set foot in the Dungeon or Trial in question, these are random groups he sets up from people watching. They aren't prog groups at all. In one of his streams I watched a VOD of, the random group of folks did iirc Vet MoL and also placed on the Leaderboard.

This is also one reason power creep keeps being a thing. Most no one wants DPS that's more than acceptable for X or Y content, they want to be able to burn X or Y thing before Z mechanic, and because people keep pushing for the absolute maximum DPS for stuff, ZOS keeps introducing "DPS checks" that require that damage. It's an endless cycle, but if people realized that like 100k is fine enough for most content and didn't look at things that can reliably hit that damage as somehow inferior to the almighty 180+k others can hit, we'd be better off.

AdonisJorge · August 25

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

[...] heavy attack enthusiasts already don't have access to a wide variety of achievements unless other players do all the work. [...]

Oh, thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that HA players are allowed to play the game, as long as they don't get too ambitious with those nasty achievements they get for actually playing the game. How generous!

I'm aware of a team that did an all-HA PB, although I don't remember if it was pre or post nerf.
I'm not aware of any all- HA teams that have done the newer trials, but if you have a team that has done a newer trifecta by all means share it.
Newer trials, for better or worse, have a heavy emphasis on damage. If you don't kill the reefs or bridges in DSR within the alloted amount of time, you wipe. If you don't manage to kill the adds or the boss on Ansuul hm before she banishes the third person on a timer, you wipe. OChm probably has a dozen dps checks I can't be bothered to learn about.

A HA build has a lower ceiling than a typical build. That's fine for most of the PVE content, but it does mean that a team of people JUST using heavy attack builds might struggle to meet the DPS checks.
And typically, when someone refers to a carry (derogatory) it means that a team comprised of other players at that level of damage/skill would not be able to clear.

Not every build is suitable for all content. We know this, which is why we bring different builds into pvp vrs sunspire. You seem to think that HA should be a one size fits all button, and that's not really how this game works. If you want the team to hit some of these newer dps checks you have to bring a build with a higher damage ceiling.

Some achievements are only accessible to people willing to adapt how they play the game. They are designed to chased and designed to be a challenge. I don't think that is a bad thing.

There is a team that made Sunspire and Cloudrest Veteran with HA builds if i am not mistaken

katanagirl1 · August 25

Vaqual wrote: »

katanagirl1 wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

I thought it was too, and I'm sure that is part of the motivation, but considering some of the design choices, that's obviously not all there is to it.

For one thing, they did not choose to start with dungeons which aren't already mechanically soloable. MHK and MoS already are both soloable. Then, instead of putting a normal/vet distinction like group dungeons, trials, and arenas have, they decided to add this strange Misfortunes mechanic.

On top of that, they have introduced a new currency that can be gained only from doing solo dungeons. So it's obvious that there is an additional motivation here, namely, creating grind.

I don’t keep up with the PTS because I am on console, but yeah…another case of getting something other than what people asked for. We’ll give players who just want to hear the story something, but tack on a bunch of sweaty stuff so they can feel bad if they aren’t able to do it. We already have sweaty achievements for these dungeons, why do they need more?

Yet another area in the game this season that I wish the development time and money had been spent elsewhere.

Maybe players who have their feelings hurt by the existence of optional challenges are not always the only concern. People who are looking for challenging gameplay are in fact often also living, breathing humans and they tend to also pay for the game. The Devs literally went out of their way, trying to make this appealing for as many players as possible. The entire system is mainly catering to players who were A.) unable to solo normal dungeons as they are, or B.) unable to find groups that allow them to experience the story according to their preferences. Sprinkling in a bit of enticement for a broader audience, to justify this development effort, is an absolutely reasonable move.
And what is the consequence? Players who haven't even come close to giving the optional challenge a shot, find said challenges unacceptable.

vMA was soloed spamming nothing but jabs years ago. I doubt that a "no LA/HA damage" challenge in a solo dungeon even qualifies as "sweaty". This is purely about egos and self-perception. Absolutely removed from the games reality. And I do not even find this challenge particularly good or interesting. But the reaction is just so predictable.

It’s not about feelings being hurt, it’s that something targeted for those who weren’t able to participate in group dungeons and have a positive experience (which is a problem in itself that should be fixed but never will be) now is just another system with achievements for every level and that diminishes it in some way. I have done sweaty group activities but am not able to finish vMA on my own. I think you overestimate most players abilities.

Anyway, I am glad they made the change so HA builds can participate. It’s seems ironic to design something for those who aren’t sweaty and then exclude them like that. It doesn’t affect me in the slightest. HA builds are more painful for me than arcanist. I’ll probably give it a try sometime.

On a personal level, I enjoy those sweaty group activities but for a limited time only. I also just like to do easy stuff sometimes too. It gets tiring when everything seems to require a min max build. Like I can’t just go around farming mats in Craglorn on my thieving build and enjoy the scenery because someone with swift traits and Ring of the Wild Hunt and all other speed bonuses keeps running in front of me and taking the nodes just before I get them, over and over. Sort of off topic but not really.

Valkanos · August 25

AdonisJorge wrote: »

There is a team that made Sunspire and Cloudrest Veteran with HA builds if i am not mistaken

I bet there’s more than one team, ^^ and I’m pretty sure a lot of HA players have completed Cloudrest GH with other teams.

But I’ll go even deeper...
Why not distinguish the TRUE, REAL endgame players from everyone else? Let me give you some examples:

vSS GS - We need 3 players in the portals against Nahviintaas. So let’s change the trifecta achievement and add something like: each player inside the portal must maintain 100k DPS on Eternal Servant for the entire time the portal is open. If their DPS drops below 300k total, the trifecta fails.
vCR GH - Same idea. Add an actual DPS performance requirement that has to be met by the players individually.
And so on.
Of course, I’m just throwing some numbers out there. The actual numbers should be based on real data and set at a level that only the truly elite endgame players can consistently handle.

So, let’s actually change the game so the REAL ENDGAME players have to do real ENDGAME content, while everyone else is “forced” to stick to veteran runs. ^^ Yeah, I would genuinely love to see that.
ZoS, Give us something that actually distinguishes the real elite players from everyone else.

Just imagine how loudly the 2bar players would cry... I’m pretty sure HA\1bar players would understand the point. They would understand that HA\1bar builds will never, and realistically could never, be on the same level as the truly elite endgame 2bar players. But what about the rest of the 2bar players? Will you finally understand that you’re not even close to being on the same level?
Maybe then you would finally understand that just because you use 2 bars, you are NOT automatically on the same level as the real elite endgame players. And then... maybe you’ll understand that we should reward the players who truly deserve to be rewarded in the real ENDGAME.

What we should never have is a system where players gatekeep other players simply because of the number of bars they use.
Distinguish the players by what they can actually accomplish, not by the build they choose to play.

BardokRedSnow · August 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

i thought about this for a few seconds and realized that heavy attack builds are often just proc builds that trigger off heavy attacks and the actual heavy attack on all of them isnt necessarily the bulk of the damage. There's tons of em.

I have pyrebrand on my solo IA build, easily gets past level 4, heavy attacks are part of the kit and if I wanted to i could make it a one bar heavy build. This debuff would have very little effect on it because the proc itself.

All a heavy attack player would need to do is switch out some sets and lean into the proc damage.

This is not at all an issue, adapt.

Disabling the damage meant that none of the procs worked. So no, that's not what this meant. That's why it was changed. This modifier completely invalidated entire playstyles and that's why it was changed to instead be a 30% nerf on all damage.

I mean they have channel skills that would just about play the same even if that is actually the case.

spartaxoxo · August 25

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

i thought about this for a few seconds and realized that heavy attack builds are often just proc builds that trigger off heavy attacks and the actual heavy attack on all of them isnt necessarily the bulk of the damage. There's tons of em.

I have pyrebrand on my solo IA build, easily gets past level 4, heavy attacks are part of the kit and if I wanted to i could make it a one bar heavy build. This debuff would have very little effect on it because the proc itself.

All a heavy attack player would need to do is switch out some sets and lean into the proc damage.

This is not at all an issue, adapt.

Disabling the damage meant that none of the procs worked. So no, that's not what this meant. That's why it was changed. This modifier completely invalidated entire playstyles and that's why it was changed to instead be a 30% nerf on all damage.

I mean they have channel skills that would just about play the same even if that is actually the case.

Those channel builds feel very different to heavy attack builds for some who need them for accessibility reasons.

Beyond that, I'm sure people will be happy to take off their Relenquen gear to play beam builds for the additional challenge they provide /s.

CameraBeardThePirate · August 25

Valkanos wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

thedocbwarren wrote: »

How would someone even be able to participate if you can't damage something, run around as a rodeo clown?

Hostely, I don't know why they don't separate PvE and PvP? Completely mental! Clearly two different games and different needs. -sigh- when is ES: VI coming out???

Use skills?
It's only nerfing light and heavy attacks, not skills. A brutal version of Velothi mythic

Damn... no one thought of that. Seems like only you and the developers have found the perfect solution for every HA build.

It's a challenge. An entirely optional challenge. If you want to complete it, use a different build? Pretty standard (almost a given actually) that challenges require changing your playstyle or build, not just in ESO but in any game.

Let me ask you this.

I have 2 GHs: one earned on a HA build and another on a 2bar build. Someone else in this topic has 7xGH.
What does that mean to you?
Are we both at the same level because we both have GH Tittle? I completed the content, and he completed it too. So, we both receive the same title and, from the outside, there is no distinction between what we actually accomplished.
If you say yes, then I completely disagree. We are not at the same level, not even close. 7xGH demonstrate a much greater amount of experience with that specific type of content than my two do.

But if you say no, then I have another question:
If we aren't necessarily at the same level, why do we both receive the exact same title?
Is that fair to him? Is it fair to me?

And this is exactly where I think the discussion should go.
Instead of trying to distinguish players based on which build they use, why don't we create meaningful distinctions based on what players can actually do?

If someone has 7xGH, 10xGS, or whatever number genuinely represents exceptional endgame experience, then let's recognize that. Give those players something that actually distinguishes them from someone who has only completed one or two.
But don't look at someone using a 1bar HA build and assume they're automatically inferior to someone using 2 bars.
Distinguish the players, not the builds.
If you want to separate the truly exceptional endgame players from casual or less-experienced players like me, I'm completely fine with that. In fact, I think that's a much better system.
But the distinction should be based on what players can actually achieved, not on whether we chose to play with 1bar, 2bars, a HA build, Beam, or anything else. Because a build is a tool.

The player is the one accomplishing the content.

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

You both have the title. You completed the challenge based on the requirements set. All the title means is that you completed the challenge. It says nothing about ability level beyond that, nor is it trying to, nor does it need to. The title has a list of requirements and you both completed the list of requirements to get the title.

This challenge has (well, HAD now) the requirement of not using a Heavy Attack build (among other things). That's really all there is to it. Not sure why it was such a humongous deal when plenty of games have hyper specific challenges that task you with beating a run in a different way or blocking the use of specific strategies.

You don't see people complaining about not being able to use Covenant weapons when playing Halo with all skulls on. If they want to use Covenant weapons, they don't play with the skull that turns off Covenant weapons. You don't see people complaining that they can't get the "No powers run" achievement in Dishonored if they use powers. If they want to use powers, they don't go for that achievement.

If anything, I'd want them to add more achievements to Solo Dungeons with hyper specific requirements like

- Not using Heavy Attacks at all
- Not bar swapping at all
- Not using an ultimate ability at all
- Not wearing a gear set

Arunei · August 26

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

[...] heavy attack enthusiasts already don't have access to a wide variety of achievements unless other players do all the work. [...]

Oh, thank you for reminding me. I almost forgot that HA players are allowed to play the game, as long as they don't get too ambitious with those nasty achievements they get for actually playing the game. How generous!

I'm aware of a team that did an all-HA PB, although I don't remember if it was pre or post nerf.
I'm not aware of any all- HA teams that have done the newer trials, but if you have a team that has done a newer trifecta by all means share it.
Newer trials, for better or worse, have a heavy emphasis on damage. If you don't kill the reefs or bridges in DSR within the alloted amount of time, you wipe. If you don't manage to kill the adds or the boss on Ansuul hm before she banishes the third person on a timer, you wipe. OChm probably has a dozen dps checks I can't be bothered to learn about.

A HA build has a lower ceiling than a typical build. That's fine for most of the PVE content, but it does mean that a team of people JUST using heavy attack builds might struggle to meet the DPS checks.
And typically, when someone refers to a carry (derogatory) it means that a team comprised of other players at that level of damage/skill would not be able to clear.

Not every build is suitable for all content. We know this, which is why we bring different builds into pvp vrs sunspire. You seem to think that HA should be a one size fits all button, and that's not really how this game works. If you want the team to hit some of these newer dps checks you have to bring a build with a higher damage ceiling.

Some achievements are only accessible to people willing to adapt how they play the game. They are designed to chased and designed to be a challenge. I don't think that is a bad thing.

There is a team that made Sunspire and Cloudrest Veteran with HA builds if i am not mistaken

Probably Xynode's.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

Ishtarknows wrote: »

thedocbwarren wrote: »

How would someone even be able to participate if you can't damage something, run around as a rodeo clown?

Hostely, I don't know why they don't separate PvE and PvP? Completely mental! Clearly two different games and different needs. -sigh- when is ES: VI coming out???

Use skills?
It's only nerfing light and heavy attacks, not skills. A brutal version of Velothi mythic

Damn... no one thought of that. Seems like only you and the developers have found the perfect solution for every HA build.

It's a challenge. An entirely optional challenge. If you want to complete it, use a different build? Pretty standard (almost a given actually) that challenges require changing your playstyle or build, not just in ESO but in any game.

Let me ask you this.

I have 2 GHs: one earned on a HA build and another on a 2bar build. Someone else in this topic has 7xGH.
What does that mean to you?
Are we both at the same level because we both have GH Tittle? I completed the content, and he completed it too. So, we both receive the same title and, from the outside, there is no distinction between what we actually accomplished.
If you say yes, then I completely disagree. We are not at the same level, not even close. 7xGH demonstrate a much greater amount of experience with that specific type of content than my two do.

But if you say no, then I have another question:
If we aren't necessarily at the same level, why do we both receive the exact same title?
Is that fair to him? Is it fair to me?

And this is exactly where I think the discussion should go.
Instead of trying to distinguish players based on which build they use, why don't we create meaningful distinctions based on what players can actually do?

If someone has 7xGH, 10xGS, or whatever number genuinely represents exceptional endgame experience, then let's recognize that. Give those players something that actually distinguishes them from someone who has only completed one or two.
But don't look at someone using a 1bar HA build and assume they're automatically inferior to someone using 2 bars.
Distinguish the players, not the builds.
If you want to separate the truly exceptional endgame players from casual or less-experienced players like me, I'm completely fine with that. In fact, I think that's a much better system.
But the distinction should be based on what players can actually achieved, not on whether we chose to play with 1bar, 2bars, a HA build, Beam, or anything else. Because a build is a tool.

The player is the one accomplishing the content.

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

You both have the title. You completed the challenge based on the requirements set. All the title means is that you completed the challenge. It says nothing about ability level beyond that, nor is it trying to, nor does it need to. The title has a list of requirements and you both completed the list of requirements to get the title.

This challenge has (well, HAD now) the requirement of not using a Heavy Attack build (among other things). That's really all there is to it. Not sure why it was such a humongous deal when plenty of games have hyper specific challenges that task you with beating a run in a different way or blocking the use of specific strategies.

You don't see people complaining about not being able to use Covenant weapons when playing Halo with all skulls on. If they want to use Covenant weapons, they don't play with the skull that turns off Covenant weapons. You don't see people complaining that they can't get the "No powers run" achievement in Dishonored if they use powers. If they want to use powers, they don't go for that achievement.

If anything, I'd want them to add more achievements to Solo Dungeons with hyper specific requirements like

- Not using Heavy Attacks at all
- Not bar swapping at all
- Not using an ultimate ability at all
- Not wearing a gear set

Those are all things you can do yourself if you want to, though. You don't need the game to keep you from removing your Ults, removing your backbar Weapon and Skills, not using HAs, or taking off a Set. You can literally do all of that yourself. But at least the second and third impact everyone equally.

A lot of people are also ignoring how Pulled Punches as it first was was a free MF for everyone BUT HA/LA builds and numerous Sets. And genuinely I think that's why so many people were against it being changed into an ACTUAL challenge that would affect everyone equally. It's easy to sit and yell "lol just change ur build" when the MF one is adamant against not being changed doesn't affect a majority of players. Seriously, why are people SO against the MF applying to EVERYONE instead of only limiting a handful of players?

It's just baffling that people feel something is fine just because it doesn't impact them. And then get mad when the thing that didn't pose a challenge to most players now poses a challenge to everyone. But then shouldn't they be taking their own advice of accepting the challenge it now poses? The only logical conclusion is people wanted a free MF.

Valkanos · August 26

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.

You both have the title. You completed the challenge based on the requirements set. All the title means is that you completed the challenge. It says nothing about ability level beyond that, nor is it trying to, nor does it need to. The title has a list of requirements and you both completed the list of requirements to get the title.

This challenge has (well, HAD now) the requirement of not using a Heavy Attack build (among other things). That's really all there is to it. Not sure why it was such a humongous deal when plenty of games have hyper specific challenges that task you with beating a run in a different way or blocking the use of specific strategies.

You don't see people complaining about not being able to use Covenant weapons when playing Halo with all skulls on. If they want to use Covenant weapons, they don't play with the skull that turns off Covenant weapons. You don't see people complaining that they can't get the "No powers run" achievement in Dishonored if they use powers. If they want to use powers, they don't go for that achievement.

If anything, I'd want them to add more achievements to Solo Dungeons with hyper specific requirements like

- Not using Heavy Attacks at all
- Not bar swapping at all
- Not using an ultimate ability at all
- Not wearing a gear set

I get you...
As long as you can maintain the illusion that you're on the same level as the real top endgame players, that's enough to distinguish the casual 2bar players from everyone using a 1bar build. I see...
You don't want a challenge that actually proves who's good and who isn't. You just want a challenge that you can handle, so you can put yourself on the same level as top-end players. Not because you're actually good or better than others... but because you have 2 bars!

Only heroes around here... But if we try to create real challenges that actually prove who is good and who isn't... well, "I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make", right?

frogthroat · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

Yet another feature that was supposed to be for the solo/story/exploration/more casual crowd, but now has added difficulty levels for the sweaties.

Was it? I thought they were adding a solo mode now and hinted that they are thinking of a story mode separately. AFAIK the solo mode doesn't have repeatable quests, for example. A story mode would probably have that.

And what is the problem with also providing people with some optional challenges? If you want to see the story, pick those three misfortunes and then complain it's too difficult for the story is the same as going to a dungeon in a group, choose hard mode and then complain it distracts from the story. Don't take the misfortunes if you want to just enjoy the story.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Apparently the 50+ group dungeons, arenas, overland difficulty levels, and the IA aren't enough for them.

Of course not. Once you have mastered a dungeon, what's the challenge? Likewise, once you have seen the dungeon story, what's new there?

AzuraFan wrote: »

So yeah, another feature that I was excited about that I won't be able to complete (can't complete all the achievements). All the cool rewards go to the sweaties.

If you play only one style, of course you can't get all the achievements. If you are a casual player only interested in stories, of course you'll get no trifecta achievements. If you are only doing trial hard modes, you will probably never get any fishing achievements. If you spend 99.9% of your time in Cyrodiil, you'll probably never get all the zone quest achievements.

You will never get all the achievements, unless you are willing to try everything the game has to offer.

AzuraFan wrote: »

I'd wager that most of the playerbase can't solo the two dungeons. I certainly can't.

Why? What part is too difficult with 0 misfortunes on the current PTS?

AzuraFan wrote: »

And that was supposed to be the point of these dungeons - to give players like me a chance to go through them at our own pace, explore, read the books, etc.

I don't remember it like that. I remember them separating story mode and solo dungeons. I think they were talking about those separately. Do you have a link where they explicitly say the solo mode is supposed to be a story mode?

AzuraFan wrote: »

Now it's been turned into yet another difficulty challenge, where those of us who aren't good enough or just want to have fun, will be locked out of the cool rewards. There was even someone asking on PTS to add leaderboards. ZOS is so clueless at this point that it won't surprise me if they go ahead and do it.

'Again, why is this a bad thing? You still don't have to pick a single misfortune if you just want to enjoy the story. If you are not interested in the leaderboards, why would the existence of the leaderboards be a bad thing?

I hate fishing and card games in games with a passion. I am locked out of cool rewards when I have not even done the intro quest to ToT. But I am not advocating that the game should be removed from ESO, or that the rewards should be available to me by other means. Some parts of the game just aren't for me and I accept that.

AzuraFan wrote: »

Yes, but this content was originally intended for the story/casual crowd.

Again, where does it say so? AFAIK they have been talking about solo dungeons and story modes separately.

AzuraFan wrote: »

And why is it that the story/casual crowd can never get all the achievements for something?

Are you kidding? This must be sarcasm.

AzuraFan wrote: »

The solo dungeons were supposed to solve the problem of people not being able to do stuff at their own pace with pugs. They turned it into yet another combat challenge, like everything else in this game now. And yeah, by overcomplicating it, the other dungeons will take longer to do, if they're done at all.

Why would the existence of an optional difficulty level lock you out from doing the solo dungeons without selecting the optional difficulty?

Reginald_leBlem · August 26

Valkanos wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

There is a team that made Sunspire and Cloudrest Veteran with HA builds if i am not mistaken

I bet there’s more than one team, ^^ and I’m pretty sure a lot of HA players have completed Cloudrest GH with other teams.

But I’ll go even deeper...
Why not distinguish the TRUE, REAL endgame players from everyone else? Let me give you some examples:

vSS GS - We need 3 players in the portals against Nahviintaas. So let’s change the trifecta achievement and add something like: each player inside the portal must maintain 100k DPS on Eternal Servant for the entire time the portal is open. If their DPS drops below 300k total, the trifecta fails.
vCR GH - Same idea. Add an actual DPS performance requirement that has to be met by the players individually.
And so on.
Of course, I’m just throwing some numbers out there. The actual numbers should be based on real data and set at a level that only the truly elite endgame players can consistently handle.

So, let’s actually change the game so the REAL ENDGAME players have to do real ENDGAME content, while everyone else is “forced” to stick to veteran runs. ^^ Yeah, I would genuinely love to see that.
ZoS, Give us something that actually distinguishes the real elite players from everyone else.

Just imagine how loudly the 2bar players would cry... I’m pretty sure HA\1bar players would understand the point. They would understand that HA\1bar builds will never, and realistically could never, be on the same level as the truly elite endgame 2bar players. But what about the rest of the 2bar players? Will you finally understand that you’re not even close to being on the same level?
Maybe then you would finally understand that just because you use 2 bars, you are NOT automatically on the same level as the real elite endgame players. And then... maybe you’ll understand that we should reward the players who truly deserve to be rewarded in the real ENDGAME.

What we should never have is a system where players gatekeep other players simply because of the number of bars they use.
Distinguish the players by what they can actually accomplish, not by the build they choose to play.

You are describing a DPS check. This mechanic already exists. That's my point.

AzuraFan · August 26

frogthroat wrote: »

And what is the problem with also providing people with some optional challenges?

Why is it that that every piece of content released now, even stuff originally intended for the solo/casual crowd, has to have stuff tacked on for the build-focused/non-casual crowd? We had the Night Market for 3 months. When some players complained (I didn't), they were told, "Hey, stuff's coming down the pipe just for you. Including solo dungeons!" But it turns out nope, they're not just for the soloists/casual crowd.

Anyway, it is what it is.

Valkanos · August 26

AzuraFan wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

And what is the problem with also providing people with some optional challenges?

Why is it that that every piece of content released now, even stuff originally intended for the solo/casual crowd, has to have stuff tacked on for the build-focused/non-casual crowd? We had the Night Market for 3 months. When some players complained (I didn't), they were told, "Hey, stuff's coming down the pipe just for you. Including solo dungeons!" But it turns out nope, they're not just for the soloists/casual crowd.

Anyway, it is what it is.

Because DPS has become the dominant factor in ESO. You either meet the expected DPS threshold, or you're left out. And now it feels like even ZoS is moving further in that direction, instead of giving players different ways to demonstrate what they can do. Trifecta players, achievement hunters, and casual players who simply enjoy a good, hard challenge all get thrown into the same bag and somehow, the only thing that matters is how much DPS comes out.

Valkanos · August 26

And remember: with this new direction for ESO, we are moving toward punishing players for how they play, rather than how well they play.

If ZoS genuinely wants to allow every player to prove themselves, then the game should punish player mistakes, not the build they chose to play. (reduce the power creep in DPS and make players engage with the mechanics instead of simply skip them)
We saw the beginning of this with vCR, then the Night Market, and now they're trying to bring the same philosophy into solo dungeons. The question should be: Can you handle the challenge? Not: Did you use the build ZoS considers acceptable?

edit:
For some reason, I couldn't edit my previous topic.

YffresTrill · August 26

Valkanos wrote: »

And remember: with this new direction for ESO, we are moving toward punishing players for how they play, rather than how well they play.

If ZoS genuinely wants to allow every player to prove themselves, then the game should punish player mistakes, not the build they chose to play.
We saw the beginning of this with vCR, then the Night Market, and now they're trying to bring the same philosophy into solo dungeons. The question should be: Can you handle the challenge? Not: Did you use the build ZoS considers acceptable?

edit:
For some reason, I couldn't edit my previous topic.

My man, the gripe you had here has been fixed. I am not sure what you are still arguing about.

Valkanos · August 26

YffresTrill wrote: »

My man, the gripe you had here has been fixed. I am not sure what you are still arguing about.

What I’m talking about is the direction ESO has been taking. vCR -> Night Market -> solo dungeons. Where difficulty is created by restricting builds instead of punishing player mistakes.
(Are you worried about something here? No? Good).

YffresTrill · August 26

Valkanos wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

My man, the gripe you had here has been fixed. I am not sure what you are still arguing about.

What I’m talking about is the direction ESO has been taking. vCR -> Night Market -> solo dungeons. Where difficulty is created by restricting builds instead of punishing player mistakes.
(Are you worried about something here? No? Good).

I see what you mean about vCR, but part of the problem there is player gatekeeping, as it can technically be done with one-bar players in the group.

Regarding the Night Market, I do not recall how player builds were restricted there? People were bringing literally anything, joining a random group, and getting stuff done. And in the solo dungeons, once again, the issue has been fixed.