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ZOS, why is werewolf balancing ‘unchanging’?
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
Nope, it's a 'class' or you're arguing semantics which doesn't matter either way. It doesn't validate that it needs love and care in the same way any other class does.
You cannot place any other skills on werewolf. It had a class rep during the official 'class rep' program.. It received an entire rework during its own cycle and had its own feature page.
It's actually more of a 'class' than any subclass combination ever was.
I'm just calling it what it is and understanding that ultimately that probably effects the priority of it for zos.
It's a skill line just like vampire. In the crown store it's not listed directly next to Warden as a purchasable class. You can't pick it at the class selection screen. It's not a class.
But also as you say, it was given a class rep and a rework.
This is why I called it more of a hybrid. I'm just looking at this objectively in understanding why it's not getting the full priority that an actual class might.
Which is funny because a full class takes much more work to rework while a skill line is arguably much less.
But I guess we'll see where zos puts dev time as we go forward and see what their priority actually is.
I mean, if they’re ‘smart’, they’ll remove werewolf from the mastery system and give it masteries of its own in a patch or 2.
This would a save them a lot of time and effort moving forward as they no longer need to consider werewolf at all when adjusting masteries for their respective classes in PvE and PvP and werewolf balancing as-a-whole would become that much easier for them as they likely wouldn’t need to devote AS much effort into balancing based on ‘meta’-gaming due to less potential ‘toxic’ combinations.
I for one would very much appreciate not having my entire werewolf balanced clearly around the existence of CoE, for example. These masteries would certainly need to be complementary for PvE and should bring a lot of flavor given that a lot of flavor would be removed by this type of change.
I think adding class masteries would be weird for something that's not actually a class though I very much support something like giving different buffs as choices based on which class you put wolf on. To symbolize that they are a beast from of their original self. But yes it would be easier to just give them five buffs to choose from and keep masteries to classes0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
Well we have to be fair about that this is. It's basically a skill line / Oakensoul hybrid.
I appreciate how that puts it in a weird place because it's more robust than any single skill line yet it's not actually a class.
Truly this is a case where the dev cycle on this needed to just be better planned and executed as well as the current cleanup effort.
But hey at least unlike vampire for a time it was not than just a passive or single skill!
Nope, it's a 'class' or you're arguing semantics which doesn't matter either way. It doesn't validate that it needs love and care in the same way any other class does.
You cannot place any other skills on werewolf. It had a class rep during the official 'class rep' program.. It received an entire rework during its own cycle and had its own feature page.
It's actually more of a 'class' than any subclass combination ever was.
I'm just calling it what it is and understanding that ultimately that probably effects the priority of it for zos.
It's a skill line just like vampire. In the crown store it's not listed directly next to Warden as a purchasable class. You can't pick it at the class selection screen. It's not a class.
But also as you say, it was given a class rep and a rework.
This is why I called it more of a hybrid. I'm just looking at this objectively in understanding why it's not getting the full priority that an actual class might.
Which is funny because a full class takes much more work to rework while a skill line is arguably much less.
But I guess we'll see where zos puts dev time as we go forward and see what their priority actually is.
I mean, if they’re ‘smart’, they’ll remove werewolf from the mastery system and give it masteries of its own in a patch or 2.
This would a save them a lot of time and effort moving forward as they no longer need to consider werewolf at all when adjusting masteries for their respective classes in PvE and PvP and werewolf balancing as-a-whole would become that much easier for them as they likely wouldn’t need to devote AS much effort into balancing based on ‘meta’-gaming due to less potential ‘toxic’ combinations.
I for one would very much appreciate not having my entire werewolf balanced clearly around the existence of CoE, for example. These masteries would certainly need to be complementary for PvE and should bring a lot of flavor given that a lot of flavor would be removed by this type of change.
I think adding class masteries would be weird for something that's not actually a class though I very much support something like giving different buffs as choices based on which class you put wolf on. To symbolize that they are a beast from of their original self. But yes it would be easier to just give them five buffs to choose from and keep masteries to classes
How is it weird when class masteries just came to be in U50 after not existing in the game for over a decade?
Class masteries are a solution to a problem and werewolf masteries would be no different.
The argument cannot logically be 'werewolf isn't a class' while at the same time saying 'it doesn't deserve access to its own class's masteries in a significant capacity either'.
Beyond that, I could feasibly see 'mastering the wolf within' far more than I can some person that finally 'mastered' their class overnight, a class they were playing proficiently with for over a decade in real life time (FAR more in game).
The arguments between @RedMamba and yourself somewhat feel like filler episodes for any long-standing show, it does give me a good laugh from time to time so I appreciate it in that capacity.Edited by Wuuffyy on August 25, 2026 2:06PMWuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
WW is a single skill line and not a class. It shouldn't outperform actually classes in game and is just something to do for fun but shouldn't expect it to be viable in endgame over actual classes.
Your opinion is yours but I don't find any justification for this argument. The only reason it's being pulled back is due to adverse pvp outcomes but there was yet to be an issue with pvp performance.
Technically no class or anything should blatantly outperform something else but as we know there's flex room in that over the years. This however has nothing to do with skill line or class. Skill lines over the years had to be adjusted so they weren't the clear winner just like classes. No reason though where they can't perform at similar levels.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!
https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
0 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.Edited by Wuuffyy on August 25, 2026 2:27PMWuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Copy Pasta from another thread: with sustain nuked here is a proposed way to add some burst to Werewolf's kit.
With sustain being hit hard next patch, I think it is worth asking what role Werewolf is supposed to fill in PvP.
The redesign seems to be built around the idea that Werewolves should manage their Ultimate/Fury rather than traditional resources. The problem is that, outside of Enrage, Werewolf hasn't really been given a reliable way to manage that resource. (Especially on a lone Berserker). If sustain is now being stripped away as well, the sustained pressure that defined Werewolf is going with it.
That leaves a pretty obvious gap: Werewolf needs a burst option.
My suggestion: Rework Prowl
Prowl: Increase the damage and healing of your next Werewolf ability by **25% per stack of Bloodrage**. Activating Prowl also causes Fury generation to be reduced/stunted for 5 seconds (as well as does what it does now on live)..
This would give Werewolf a deliberate burst setup without simply handing it more raw sustained pressure.
Why I think this works:
* Gives Werewolf access to a real burst window. You build Bloodrage, sacrifice some of your sustain, then cash it in for a powerful attack.
* Creates diminishing returns on spammables. Using the buff on something like Rip and Tear consumes your Bloodrage, preventing it from becoming an endlessly escalating damage tool.
* Mirrors traditional PvP gameplay. Build pressure → create a setup window → commit resources → attempt to burst the target.
* Has a meaningful cost. Prowl already costs Stamina, and delaying Fury generation means you are also delaying your ability to sustain your Werewolf form.
* Creates an interesting risk/reward decision. Using Prowl during an Enraged state would be the most efficient way to capitalize on it, but you're still giving up future sustain to do so by delaying the much needed enrage state.
* Discourages chaining Prowl. The fury-generation penalty gives it an inherent drawback and prevents repeated stealth/burst setups from becoming the default rotation.
* Minimal PvE disruption. Players who don't want to utilize Prowl for burst would largely play the same way, while giving Werewolf PvP a much-needed tool.
The goal isn't to make Werewolf hit harder all the time.
It's to give Werewolf a controlled burst window that it has to prepare for and pay for.
If sustained pressure is being taken away, I think Werewolf needs something meaningful to replace it and Prowl seems like a natural place to put it.
Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NACaius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA4 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?
So like this is Orphic HM for a US group that's very early in the prog. Even in learning mode and in pure chaos, you can see the windows line up well enough for most of the group. With deaths, invuln phase, and getting mirrors people still are keeping up the buff largely even with a first time WW playing the role.
This is what a much further along group looks like in the same fight even amongst all the chaos
0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?
So like this is Orphic HM for a US group that's very early in the prog. Even in learning mode and in pure chaos, you can see the windows line up well enough for most of the group. With deaths, invuln phase, and getting mirrors people still are keeping up the buff largely even with a first time WW playing the role.
This is what a much further along group looks like in the same fight even amongst all the chaos
Interesting, okay- that makes sense. So it seems you settle for lower uptimes then which I suppose SPC/Olo wouldn't really be all that different then.
Okay, I appreciate it- was just wondering!Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
HMG_Spaun✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?
So like this is Orphic HM for a US group that's very early in the prog. Even in learning mode and in pure chaos, you can see the windows line up well enough for most of the group. With deaths, invuln phase, and getting mirrors people still are keeping up the buff largely even with a first time WW playing the role.
This is what a much further along group looks like in the same fight even amongst all the chaos
Why you got to call me out? 🤣
1 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?
So like this is Orphic HM for a US group that's very early in the prog. Even in learning mode and in pure chaos, you can see the windows line up well enough for most of the group. With deaths, invuln phase, and getting mirrors people still are keeping up the buff largely even with a first time WW playing the role.
This is what a much further along group looks like in the same fight even amongst all the chaos
Why you got to call me out? 🤣
Git gud kid0 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?
So like this is Orphic HM for a US group that's very early in the prog. Even in learning mode and in pure chaos, you can see the windows line up well enough for most of the group. With deaths, invuln phase, and getting mirrors people still are keeping up the buff largely even with a first time WW playing the role.
This is what a much further along group looks like in the same fight even amongst all the chaos
Interesting, okay- that makes sense. So it seems you settle for lower uptimes then which I suppose SPC/Olo wouldn't really be all that different then.
Okay, I appreciate it- was just wondering!
There's really not much content in the game that actively prevents you from stacking up to get a 20s buff. For Twins we just run a 2nd WW so it can be on each side since the mirror blocks cross buffing. Other than that, not much ever really needs to change.1 -
HMG_Spaun✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' and they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider 'light PvP combat'.
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't even needed Takeaway to manage.
I just didn't want to have to recomp back to running SPC for cores
They say that some overlap is appreciated due to the shorter range/inconsistencies caused by the wolf roar's Courage in several trials. How do you normally run your groups?
For fights where you can stack normally it's pretty stupidly easy to use
For more chaotic fights, it can be more problematic, but uptimes are still good when it needs to be largely
What do you all do in those chaotic fights? Run another wolf, sub in for SPC, or just settle for lower Major Courage uptimes?
So like this is Orphic HM for a US group that's very early in the prog. Even in learning mode and in pure chaos, you can see the windows line up well enough for most of the group. With deaths, invuln phase, and getting mirrors people still are keeping up the buff largely even with a first time WW playing the role.
This is what a much further along group looks like in the same fight even amongst all the chaos
Why you got to call me out? 🤣
Git gud kid
🤣
Edited by HMG_Spaun on August 25, 2026 2:47PM0 -
AdonisJorge✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
I will be happy with any build to do overland PVE, you can do most of it almost naked... and yes WW Berseker damage is good as i said some pages before, this person can be happy but i do not think that overland PVE is a good parameter2 -
Arunei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
Edited by Arunei on August 25, 2026 3:18PMPC-NA | Been around since closed beta | Alt account: Arunei PC-NA
Avid RPer. Hit me up in-game @Ras_Lei if you're interested in getting together for some arr-pee shenanigans!
RP Characters:
Sarah Lacroix: Breton Vampire who really really REALLY likes likes learning Magick and also her Altmer husbando
Kaalhil Swiftstrike: Tiny shapeshifting monster hunter Bosmeri lady with enough sass to kill a dragon or ten
Gwendolyn Jenelle: Friendly healer with a coffee addiction and her own medical practice
Krisiel: Literally crazy Werewolf, no like legit insane. She nuts
Kiju Veran: Ex-Fighters Guild Suthay who likes to punch things and is also a spy and ALSO a Werewolf
Niralae Elsinal: Young Altmeri woman with way too much Magicka and Vampire husbando
Slondor: TESified Slenderman, except lazier and has more of a thing for deals than Clavicus Vile does
Marius Vastino: Sarah's Imperial apathetic sire who likes to monologue
Lirawyn Calatare: Traveling performer and bard who's 101% vanilla bean
Soliril Larethian: Blind alchemist who uses animals to see and brews plagues in his spare time5 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I think a huge problem exists (just like with Oakensoul before; point cont.) where the only real solution to werewolf's sustain (without tanking damage completely) in this case lies within a mythic (now Shapeshifter's) and practically also relegates a werewolf build (in PvP) now to less than half of the playable classes or directly back to subclassing.
I will make it next patch should I continue to play.
Sorc and DK will be egregiously stronger than werewolf 'by default' (this will be the same feeling as my NB vs a DK for example). Is it doable, sure. Are the losses that were created in the changeover from U49 (pre-rework) to U50 (post-rework) still worth it- I don't believe so.
I see a singular adjustment to bite healing occurring and wolf becoming objectively worse (in PvP) than it was before the rework in nearly every way.
For a 'class' (wolf) that is so highly focused on the 'neutral' for the majority of gameplay (even Rampage is only really focused on buffing what's already there not supplying new ways to interact with an engagement like an ult such as Onslaught, Dawnbreaker, Vampire Lord- Bat Swarm would), one would think the solution more obviously equates to strengthening that neutral game instead.
However, in wolf's case weakening that neutral game (which was done this PTS) specifically while requiring wolf to fight others with an exacerbated neutral game (DK sustain being through the roof still with the ability to run Pyre+Wildfire for high pressure in b/w; sorc doing high-damage to you mid-fight on a regular basis while having 'near-infinite' sustain through a combination of post-nerf CoE with max mag stack, streak, and Dark Exchange) and also their burst through an ult+ a combination of multiple 'burst skills' serves counterpoint to the success of wolf's kit.Edited by Wuuffyy on August 25, 2026 3:33PMWuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!4 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.
I see a lot of your time devoted to this is the way I want to play and this is the the proposed nerfs don't work for me. I only see a few players who seen to feel the same.
I support you or anyone giving their opinions because it's an open space.
What I'm starting to wonder is, how many feel the way you do or are trying to do the things you're trying to do?
It seems like the community overall isn't as reactive to what you're looking for and I'm wondering if it's because not many care about ww or not many want to do what you're trying to do?
That's just a point to say hey if we're talking about a play style that is very niche then that has to be accounted for as well.
Again, I'm not against pve wolf at all but pvp wolf needs to be viable while not overwhelming to others in pvp, same as any skill line in pvp0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
I will be happy with any build to do overland PVE, you can do most of it almost naked... and yes WW Berseker damage is good as i said some pages before, this person can be happy but i do not think that overland PVE is a good parameter
160ish dps is what it is as a base number. Different things affect that but it should be suitable for multiple types of pve I would think.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Except yes, he DOES need to provide proof of his claims. This is the PTS the whole point of things is to provide actual data, not pointless hearsay that has been proven already NOT TO WORK. If he's going to sit here and parrot the same nonsense without backing it up, it's not data, it's nothing. Empty words. It's someone who wants WW to be nerfed and is spreading their own misinformation about X or Y working when his ""advice"" was followed.Bushido2513 wrote: »
I don't know what makes it clear you're just here to be contrary and hate on WW more than this right here. You have been asked repeatedly for proof of the claims you're making, but you just keep coming up with passive-aggressive excuses to avoid actually giving any proof to validate your claims. It's obvious you haven't done any testing and are just out here saying whatever sound remotely like it should work, even though proof that it DOESN'T has been provided. Kind of like when you kept claiming you dueled Wuuffey but then offered absolutely 0 proof of it and folded when pressed about it.Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.
Nope, we tried with all sorts of things including over 30% reduction to stamina abilities, "Orzo Food", cost glyphs @AdonisJorge, and more.
Beyond that, how much damage do you believe werewolf is capable of losing before it can no longer kill competent players/ any reasonable amount of time?
It had more damage across the board before the rework. How could it logically lose damage, I build more sustain on wolf than I ever have before (as they remove the sustain), and it somehow do better than it did for me before the rework?
Do you have any timestamped PTS CMX data to validate your point?
Sounds like it's just a YOU issue then and the rest of us are good / adapted. Sorry bud
Hmm, very strange. It's a logical issue because they reduced the damage (from when it objectively was awful), took away defiles (pressure on healing and shielding), gave it sustain, removed the sustain, and didn't return the damage...
I built for sustain as I have very clearly demonstrated via logical data and CMX parses and yet burn out in 20 seconds or less (even at the expense of more damage). I also have a plethora of people I've tested on this PTS with the same claim of the hindrance of the sustain and the egregious stat spread that wolf requires (remember, reducing the healing doesn't exactly give me the option of building less health especially when I cannot bolster my tankiness with a sword and board/minor resolve, for example)...
...yet you are saying 'build better' but cannot provide any data or proof to back up the claim that you know how to build in a way that is fundamentally better than me (who did verifiably proficiently with wolf pre-rework and who does verifiably proficiently with wolf post-rework) or any of those I have verifiably fought against, with proof, on PTS.
I am choosing to not engage with you anymore for the time being as I wish to engage in 'good faith' arguments only. Thank you, once again!
I'm not here to help you learn WW or theorycraft builds after the changes. Sorry maybe someone on YT can help you out.
You do realize the burden of proof is on a person making a claim, yes? If what you keep saying is true, why are you so afraid to post proof of it? And please don't try hiding behind excuses of "look at Youtube lel" because NONE of those builds are the one YOU are CLAIMING ""works"" on the PTS right now. Other builds dont mean anything, they have no bearing on this conversation.
You are making claims. Offer your proof. That's how it works, not hiding behind "I'm not here to theorycraft for you". This isn't about making builds, this is about offering objective proof of something.
ETA Also how are people even supposed to test what you keep claiming ""works"" if you refuse to tell people what ""works"" beyond the absolute vaguest things? Because proof of builds following your ""advice"" not working has been shown, and yet you STILL keep insisting that it's the other person essentially being bad. Despite them doing what you say allegedly ""works"". So again...show proof. Because otherwise you're offering nothing to the conversation but misinformation yourself.
Well yes and no. I see the point the person is making here and I see where I think you may be going wrong.
They dun don't need to prove anything because they aren't saying the build will be amazing just playable.
Here's the issue, what's playable? Pve, pvp, cp, no cp, dungeon, trial, duel, etc. Playable builds for those require very different things.
At a base level if I tell you to strap on all sustain gear, enchants, mundus, and food, we know you'll be able to perform skills so it's playable.
Now what I suspect you or anyone else is asking is show me a build with performance in any of the categories I just named and to be honest that's not realistic because playable is in the mind of the player and their goals which can be all over the place.
So functionally is ww technically playable, of course. Is it going to be at the levels it was before, of course not. Can it reach even near those levels in xyz environment, probably not.
Could you build something and play it and have fun, that's up to reach personal player and preference.
Obviously those the really enjoy ww are not happy with the change and want at or near the same level of performance. And it's a good idea to ask for what you want but also accept and pay what they decide upon in the end, or not, but it's still probably going to happen.
Playable isn't that complicated in this instance. It means whether you run out of resources faster than other Classes or have to give up more damage, healing, or tanking ability to build into more than any other Class would. No build is playable if you're running out of resources quickly or if you have to spec so much into sustain that it negatively impacts your overall ability to do whatever it is you're trying to.
If dude is SO SURE that his ""advice"" works as well as he claims it does, what genuine legit reason can he have for not backing it up with proof? None, it's why all his avoidance has been passive-aggressive nothings. But I doubt he's going to offer proof of anything. Given none of my last few posts directed at him have been acknowledged, I'm being ignored.
You missed the point. You're confusing absolute and opinion.
His opinion based on his experience is that this will work and it's true because it's based on his opinion and expectations.
See if he says ok I built all into sustain and it works for me then you're going to say it doesn't have enough damage or defense. Then if he shows it he having those in a situation he deems appropriate then you're going to say well that's not what I was talking about and now all the sudden he's trying to build a spec that matches up to your expectations which is crazy to chase. That's why he's right in saying he doesn't have to prove anything to you, because at the end of the day he's not responsible for meeting your expectations of what playable is as long as he meets his own.
Now if he claimed that he could beat you in a duel or in a pve parse then he'd need to back up those claims but saying if you make these changes I think it would be playable isn't a claim that has to be backed up because it's not based on logic, it's mostly opinion if not feeling which really shouldn't be argued.0 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭✭so about the same then after all then between of late nerfs a few weeks ago and when the update drops 150+ dps to mid 160k makes someone happy atleast0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.
I see a lot of your time devoted to this is the way I want to play and this is the the proposed nerfs don't work for me. I only see a few players who seen to feel the same.
I support you or anyone giving their opinions because it's an open space.
What I'm starting to wonder is, how many feel the way you do or are trying to do the things you're trying to do?
It seems like the community overall isn't as reactive to what you're looking for and I'm wondering if it's because not many care about ww or not many want to do what you're trying to do?
That's just a point to say hey if we're talking about a play style that is very niche then that has to be accounted for as well.
Again, I'm not against pve wolf at all but pvp wolf needs to be viable while not overwhelming to others in pvp, same as any skill line in pvp
It isn't 'the way I feel'.
Werewolf OBJECTIVELY did HORRIBLE before the rework.
UNDERSTAND they took damage, healing (up to 43% off the burst heal now on PTS), and DoT uptime (this was a drastic change done DURING THE REWORK PTS essentially for damage levels achieved through Signet) in exchange for the sustain given during U50.
Reducing healing, and allowing nothing significant healing-wise aside from health-based healing obviously serves to spread the user very thin as they must continue to build MORE of that resource for a similar level of healing, NOT less.
This affects basically any tank build IN PVE despite them saying 'THEY ARE HAPPY WITH PVE'. A tank, DOESN'T BUILD LARGE SWATHES OF STAMINA- that's not normal. I have OTHER RESOURCES and OTHER THINGS to ATTEND TO. Additionally, REMOVING STATIC REVERB doesn't exactly 'help sorc wolf' in PvE- it basically turns it into a non-viable options for anything but a haphazard support (compared to an actual sorc DPS support) overnight.
IA AND Vestige require you build COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY as well. SOMETIMES HEALTH STACK is REQUIRED.
Building health is one thing, but it almost always directly coincides with reduced damage AND sustain. You can't expect werewolf to do well in PvP when it was objectively worse with more damage (tooltips on passives), utility (defiles), and higher uptimes (on all DoTs) AND has to stack more health for similar amounts of healing (which results in LESS damage, not more AND less sustain, not more).
It isn't logical and it doesn't make sense based on the game's own systems for give and take.
It's equally illogical that our only wep/spell damage scaling heal tooltips for 20% less than a breath of life and provides a unique debuff of 12%-damage-taken on the individual too ergo equating to needing MORE healing on average rather than LESS to succeed.
Werewolf is also a unique case in that if you don't beat your opponent's HPS, THEY DON'T DIE. This is UNLIKE ANY OTHER playstyle in this game that can rely on SOME level of burst to achieve the goal of defeating an opponent WITHOUT overwhelming their HPS. This isn't a playstyle that has a tremendous amount of give against competent opponents with high resource sustain (CoF and CoE) in addition to high healing (especially with any off-heals in the mix).
If I fight another werewolf averaging 3k DPS to my 5K HPS, they AREN'T KILLING ME- that's just how it is. That's them 'trying to build sustain and health for their own healing' and objectively not doing enough damage.
What data of any kind do you provide here, now? I want to know. I answer your questions, I give rebuttals; other people provide information to you, yet you 'sweep it under the rug' and go on further tangents and ask more questions.
When can you provide something meaningful to the conversation? I grow tired of talking in circles.Edited by Wuuffyy on August 25, 2026 5:10PMWuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!5 -
Daoin✭✭✭✭✭i know theres going to be a few guildmates i have that will be happy, time to don my WW hunter hat again, when does live start i just want my arcs 300 w/s damage haha
0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.
I see a lot of your time devoted to this is the way I want to play and this is the the proposed nerfs don't work for me. I only see a few players who seen to feel the same.
I support you or anyone giving their opinions because it's an open space.
What I'm starting to wonder is, how many feel the way you do or are trying to do the things you're trying to do?
It seems like the community overall isn't as reactive to what you're looking for and I'm wondering if it's because not many care about ww or not many want to do what you're trying to do?
That's just a point to say hey if we're talking about a play style that is very niche then that has to be accounted for as well.
Again, I'm not against pve wolf at all but pvp wolf needs to be viable while not overwhelming to others in pvp, same as any skill line in pvp
It isn't 'the way I feel'.
Werewolf OBJECTIVELY did HORRIBLE before the rework.
UNDERSTAND they took damage, healing (up to 43% off the burst heal now on PTS), and DoT uptime (this was a drastic change done DURING THE REWORK PTS essentially for damage levels achieved through Signet) in exchange for the sustain given during U50.
Reducing healing, and allowing nothing significant healing-wise aside from health-based healing obviously serves to spread the user very thin as they must continue to build MORE of that resource for a similar level of healing, NOT less.
This affects basically any tank build IN PVE despite them saying 'THEY ARE HAPPY WITH PVE'. A tank, DOESN'T BUILD LARGE SWATHES OF STAMINA- that's not normal. I have OTHER RESOURCES and OTHER THINGS to ATTEND TO. Additionally, REMOVING STATIC REVERB doesn't exactly 'help sorc wolf' in PvE- it basically turns it into a non-viable options for anything but a haphazard support (compared to an actual sorc DPS support) overnight.
IA AND Vestige require you build COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY as well. SOMETIMES HEALTH STACK is REQUIRED.
Building health is one thing, but it almost always directly coincides with reduced damage AND sustain. You can't expect werewolf to do well in PvP when it was objectively worse with more damage (tooltips on passives), utility (defiles), and higher uptimes (on all DoTs) AND has to stack more health for similar amounts of healing (which results in LESS damage, not more AND less sustain, not more).
It isn't logical and it doesn't make sense based on the game's own systems for give and take.
It's equally illogical that our only wep/spell damage scaling heal tooltips for 20% less than a breath of life and provides a unique debuff of 12%-damage-taken on the individual too ergo equating to needing MORE healing on average rather than LESS to succeed.
Werewolf is also a unique case in that if you don't beat your opponent's HPS, THEY DON'T DIE. This is UNLIKE ANY OTHER playstyle in this game that can rely on SOME level of burst to achieve the goal of defeating an opponent WITHOUT overwhelming their HPS. This isn't a playstyle that has a tremendous amount of give against competent opponents with high resource sustain (CoF and CoE) in addition to high healing (especially with any off-heals in the mix).
If I fight another werewolf averaging 3k DPS to my 5K HPS, they AREN'T KILLING ME- that's just how it is. That's them 'trying to build sustain and health for their own healing' and objectively not doing enough damage.
What data of any kind do you provide here, now? I want to know. I answer your questions, I give rebuttals; other people provide information to you, yet you 'sweep it under the rug' and go on further tangents and ask more questions.
When can you provide something meaningful to the conversation? I grow tired of talking in circles.
Wow you're missing the point in a big way.
There's no data I can provide here because my goals and your goals aren't the same. Also it's very much feeling based because there is no universal measure of anything you're talking about.
I'm not debating was there a nerf because that's not a question.
The question is how good or bad is ww post nerf and that's all feeling.
Sure you can say hey if xyz class can do it then why can't this skill line do it? But your comparing a skill line to a class and that's apples and oranges first of all.
There is no known metric in eso of what a nuanced thing should be.
Even if you say you can't do something, you're only speaking for yourself without a massive amount of multi player based data to back it up, which none of us has.
Your evidence is actually anecdotal even though you're providing data because you're only providing your data. For it to hold we would need to see the same data from several players and even then we have to expand to the multi thousand scenarios that the eso experience can provide.
To be fair and respectful to a logical and investigative process, you're one person or maybe even a few people reporting on something that has several thousand scenarios that you didn't test. It's an interesting read and gives some ideas for the devs to look at but it's nowhere near as telling as actually seeing the numbers in effect on live where many other players including console can chip in
To me the data anyone gives is just a clue to the devs where to look but this game has too many scenarios in this case for any one or even 10 data points to tell the story especially when a consensus can't be easily gained
The only fact we all agree on is that werewolf got nerfed. Past that I've mostly just seen personal preference on what people believe is personally acceptable.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.
I see a lot of your time devoted to this is the way I want to play and this is the the proposed nerfs don't work for me. I only see a few players who seen to feel the same.
I support you or anyone giving their opinions because it's an open space.
What I'm starting to wonder is, how many feel the way you do or are trying to do the things you're trying to do?
It seems like the community overall isn't as reactive to what you're looking for and I'm wondering if it's because not many care about ww or not many want to do what you're trying to do?
That's just a point to say hey if we're talking about a play style that is very niche then that has to be accounted for as well.
Again, I'm not against pve wolf at all but pvp wolf needs to be viable while not overwhelming to others in pvp, same as any skill line in pvp
It isn't 'the way I feel'.
Werewolf OBJECTIVELY did HORRIBLE before the rework.
UNDERSTAND they took damage, healing (up to 43% off the burst heal now on PTS), and DoT uptime (this was a drastic change done DURING THE REWORK PTS essentially for damage levels achieved through Signet) in exchange for the sustain given during U50.
Reducing healing, and allowing nothing significant healing-wise aside from health-based healing obviously serves to spread the user very thin as they must continue to build MORE of that resource for a similar level of healing, NOT less.
This affects basically any tank build IN PVE despite them saying 'THEY ARE HAPPY WITH PVE'. A tank, DOESN'T BUILD LARGE SWATHES OF STAMINA- that's not normal. I have OTHER RESOURCES and OTHER THINGS to ATTEND TO. Additionally, REMOVING STATIC REVERB doesn't exactly 'help sorc wolf' in PvE- it basically turns it into a non-viable options for anything but a haphazard support (compared to an actual sorc DPS support) overnight.
IA AND Vestige require you build COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY as well. SOMETIMES HEALTH STACK is REQUIRED.
Building health is one thing, but it almost always directly coincides with reduced damage AND sustain. You can't expect werewolf to do well in PvP when it was objectively worse with more damage (tooltips on passives), utility (defiles), and higher uptimes (on all DoTs) AND has to stack more health for similar amounts of healing (which results in LESS damage, not more AND less sustain, not more).
It isn't logical and it doesn't make sense based on the game's own systems for give and take.
It's equally illogical that our only wep/spell damage scaling heal tooltips for 20% less than a breath of life and provides a unique debuff of 12%-damage-taken on the individual too ergo equating to needing MORE healing on average rather than LESS to succeed.
Werewolf is also a unique case in that if you don't beat your opponent's HPS, THEY DON'T DIE. This is UNLIKE ANY OTHER playstyle in this game that can rely on SOME level of burst to achieve the goal of defeating an opponent WITHOUT overwhelming their HPS. This isn't a playstyle that has a tremendous amount of give against competent opponents with high resource sustain (CoF and CoE) in addition to high healing (especially with any off-heals in the mix).
If I fight another werewolf averaging 3k DPS to my 5K HPS, they AREN'T KILLING ME- that's just how it is. That's them 'trying to build sustain and health for their own healing' and objectively not doing enough damage.
What data of any kind do you provide here, now? I want to know. I answer your questions, I give rebuttals; other people provide information to you, yet you 'sweep it under the rug' and go on further tangents and ask more questions.
When can you provide something meaningful to the conversation? I grow tired of talking in circles.
Wow you're missing the point in a big way.
There's no data I can provide here because my goals and your goals aren't the same. Also it's very much feeling based because there is no universal measure of anything you're talking about.
I'm not debating was there a nerf because that's not a question.
The question is how good or bad is ww post nerf and that's all feeling.
Sure you can say hey if xyz class can do it then why can't this skill line do it? But your comparing a skill line to a class and that's apples and oranges first of all.
There is no known metric in eso of what a nuanced thing should be.
Even if you say you can't do something, you're only speaking for yourself without a massive amount of multi player based data to back it up, which none of us has.
Your evidence is actually anecdotal even though you're providing data because you're only providing your data. For it to hold we would need to see the same data from several players and even then we have to expand to the multi thousand scenarios that the eso experience can provide.
To be fair and respectful to a logical and investigative process, you're one person or maybe even a few people reporting on something that has several thousand scenarios that you didn't test. It's an interesting read and gives some ideas for the devs to look at but it's nowhere near as telling as actually seeing the numbers in effect on live where many other players including console can chip in
To me the data anyone gives is just a clue to the devs where to look but this game has too many scenarios in this case for any one or even 10 data points to tell the story especially when a consensus can't be easily gained
The only fact we all agree on is that werewolf got nerfed. Past that I've mostly just seen personal preference on what people believe is personally acceptable.
There is no 'feeling' in what I relayed.
As per usual- you aren't actually reading responses and immediately going for discredit with no data or pertinent information.
You have missed my point in a bigger way.
Someone else can kindly go back and forth with you, I'm good here for this very moment on that note- thank you!Edited by Wuuffyy on August 25, 2026 5:50PMWuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!3 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.
I see a lot of your time devoted to this is the way I want to play and this is the the proposed nerfs don't work for me. I only see a few players who seen to feel the same.
I support you or anyone giving their opinions because it's an open space.
What I'm starting to wonder is, how many feel the way you do or are trying to do the things you're trying to do?
It seems like the community overall isn't as reactive to what you're looking for and I'm wondering if it's because not many care about ww or not many want to do what you're trying to do?
That's just a point to say hey if we're talking about a play style that is very niche then that has to be accounted for as well.
Again, I'm not against pve wolf at all but pvp wolf needs to be viable while not overwhelming to others in pvp, same as any skill line in pvp
It isn't 'the way I feel'.
Werewolf OBJECTIVELY did HORRIBLE before the rework.
UNDERSTAND they took damage, healing (up to 43% off the burst heal now on PTS), and DoT uptime (this was a drastic change done DURING THE REWORK PTS essentially for damage levels achieved through Signet) in exchange for the sustain given during U50.
Reducing healing, and allowing nothing significant healing-wise aside from health-based healing obviously serves to spread the user very thin as they must continue to build MORE of that resource for a similar level of healing, NOT less.
This affects basically any tank build IN PVE despite them saying 'THEY ARE HAPPY WITH PVE'. A tank, DOESN'T BUILD LARGE SWATHES OF STAMINA- that's not normal. I have OTHER RESOURCES and OTHER THINGS to ATTEND TO. Additionally, REMOVING STATIC REVERB doesn't exactly 'help sorc wolf' in PvE- it basically turns it into a non-viable options for anything but a haphazard support (compared to an actual sorc DPS support) overnight.
IA AND Vestige require you build COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY as well. SOMETIMES HEALTH STACK is REQUIRED.
Building health is one thing, but it almost always directly coincides with reduced damage AND sustain. You can't expect werewolf to do well in PvP when it was objectively worse with more damage (tooltips on passives), utility (defiles), and higher uptimes (on all DoTs) AND has to stack more health for similar amounts of healing (which results in LESS damage, not more AND less sustain, not more).
It isn't logical and it doesn't make sense based on the game's own systems for give and take.
It's equally illogical that our only wep/spell damage scaling heal tooltips for 20% less than a breath of life and provides a unique debuff of 12%-damage-taken on the individual too ergo equating to needing MORE healing on average rather than LESS to succeed.
Werewolf is also a unique case in that if you don't beat your opponent's HPS, THEY DON'T DIE. This is UNLIKE ANY OTHER playstyle in this game that can rely on SOME level of burst to achieve the goal of defeating an opponent WITHOUT overwhelming their HPS. This isn't a playstyle that has a tremendous amount of give against competent opponents with high resource sustain (CoF and CoE) in addition to high healing (especially with any off-heals in the mix).
If I fight another werewolf averaging 3k DPS to my 5K HPS, they AREN'T KILLING ME- that's just how it is. That's them 'trying to build sustain and health for their own healing' and objectively not doing enough damage.
What data of any kind do you provide here, now? I want to know. I answer your questions, I give rebuttals; other people provide information to you, yet you 'sweep it under the rug' and go on further tangents and ask more questions.
When can you provide something meaningful to the conversation? I grow tired of talking in circles.
Wow you're missing the point in a big way.
There's no data I can provide here because my goals and your goals aren't the same. Also it's very much feeling based because there is no universal measure of anything you're talking about.
I'm not debating was there a nerf because that's not a question.
The question is how good or bad is ww post nerf and that's all feeling.
Sure you can say hey if xyz class can do it then why can't this skill line do it? But your comparing a skill line to a class and that's apples and oranges first of all.
There is no known metric in eso of what a nuanced thing should be.
Even if you say you can't do something, you're only speaking for yourself without a massive amount of multi player based data to back it up, which none of us has.
Your evidence is actually anecdotal even though you're providing data because you're only providing your data. For it to hold we would need to see the same data from several players and even then we have to expand to the multi thousand scenarios that the eso experience can provide.
To be fair and respectful to a logical and investigative process, you're one person or maybe even a few people reporting on something that has several thousand scenarios that you didn't test. It's an interesting read and gives some ideas for the devs to look at but it's nowhere near as telling as actually seeing the numbers in effect on live where many other players including console can chip in
To me the data anyone gives is just a clue to the devs where to look but this game has too many scenarios in this case for any one or even 10 data points to tell the story especially when a consensus can't be easily gained
The only fact we all agree on is that werewolf got nerfed. Past that I've mostly just seen personal preference on what people believe is personally acceptable.
There is no 'feeling' in what I relayed.
As per usual- you aren't actually reading responses and immediately going for discredit with no data or pertinent information.
You have missed my point in a bigger way.
Someone else can kindly go back and forth with you, I'm good here for this very moment on that note- thank you!
I'm happy to provide crazy amounts of data when you can say that you'll accept that what I say is acceptable is acceptable and that there's no longer a question. Deal?
No it's not a deal because that would be ridiculous because your goals aren't mine.
So what data would you like me to provide? I never even said ww was fine just that one or a few persons isn't enough to go off of.
Even if I say pts werewolf is ok you've just going to dismiss it as me not wanting what you want so what's the point?
Don't respond if you don't like. I'm certainly not here to even remotely trying to force a discussion from those that aren't interested. Put me on ignore if you like but I have and will share my opinion on the topic at my discretion, same as anyone here.
0 -
gammelscroll✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »Just sharing for context but get at least somebody is happy with updated pve dps!https://youtu.be/8ZRM7emO9og?is=ld0qtKUCMUFCS_py
166k on a DK means NB is probably hitting like 180k+, and he did it in takeaway so sustain isn't horrifically bad. Good to see.
Yes, DPS is manageable but still any build such as an IA build, Vestige build, a tank (I have all of these builds by the way so can personally see the difference between live and PTS) (these types of builds focusing on health especially), and ANY sorc wolf is heavily affected for PvE post-nerf.
The bits I have provided on sustain are 'PvP builds' that focus on damage (whereas a tank for example would focus on buffing the group with a similar outcome on 'flexibility'), health for healing and as a buffer to damage taken (granted no minor resolve and limited mitigation passives), and sustain are very reflective of these types of builds and 'environmental + rotational pressure' yet they still burn out within 20 seconds of what I still consider to be 'light PvP combat' (no significant 'forced rolling' of any kind either through burst, significant snares, or immobilizes).
Especially in the case of a tank, fighting a Marauder in IA, or anything on Vestige- my Rampage is very likely to build much slower than a direct parse on a player or a dummy and as a result 'stabilization of sustain' becomes less possible. As a quick reminder, I'm allotted no more than 4-6 or so heals in a row depending on how I build wolf if built relatively appropriately and if I'm needing to 'heal on the go', the amount of healing I can dedicate specifically to sustain 'when needed' changes as a significant variable and healing in a pseudo-constant manner results in a hefty DPS loss for as long as I can manage that.
Common sense will tell you that 'stam wolf with attributes in stam' will do decently in PvE'. I imagine that in a group setting, especially with as much time on target as they had, they wouldn't have even needed Takeaway to manage.
I see a lot of your time devoted to this is the way I want to play and this is the the proposed nerfs don't work for me. I only see a few players who seen to feel the same.
I support you or anyone giving their opinions because it's an open space.
What I'm starting to wonder is, how many feel the way you do or are trying to do the things you're trying to do?
It seems like the community overall isn't as reactive to what you're looking for and I'm wondering if it's because not many care about ww or not many want to do what you're trying to do?
That's just a point to say hey if we're talking about a play style that is very niche then that has to be accounted for as well.
Again, I'm not against pve wolf at all but pvp wolf needs to be viable while not overwhelming to others in pvp, same as any skill line in pvp
It isn't 'the way I feel'.
Werewolf OBJECTIVELY did HORRIBLE before the rework.
UNDERSTAND they took damage, healing (up to 43% off the burst heal now on PTS), and DoT uptime (this was a drastic change done DURING THE REWORK PTS essentially for damage levels achieved through Signet) in exchange for the sustain given during U50.
Reducing healing, and allowing nothing significant healing-wise aside from health-based healing obviously serves to spread the user very thin as they must continue to build MORE of that resource for a similar level of healing, NOT less.
This affects basically any tank build IN PVE despite them saying 'THEY ARE HAPPY WITH PVE'. A tank, DOESN'T BUILD LARGE SWATHES OF STAMINA- that's not normal. I have OTHER RESOURCES and OTHER THINGS to ATTEND TO. Additionally, REMOVING STATIC REVERB doesn't exactly 'help sorc wolf' in PvE- it basically turns it into a non-viable options for anything but a haphazard support (compared to an actual sorc DPS support) overnight.
IA AND Vestige require you build COMPLETELY DIFFERENTLY as well. SOMETIMES HEALTH STACK is REQUIRED.
Building health is one thing, but it almost always directly coincides with reduced damage AND sustain. You can't expect werewolf to do well in PvP when it was objectively worse with more damage (tooltips on passives), utility (defiles), and higher uptimes (on all DoTs) AND has to stack more health for similar amounts of healing (which results in LESS damage, not more AND less sustain, not more).
It isn't logical and it doesn't make sense based on the game's own systems for give and take.
It's equally illogical that our only wep/spell damage scaling heal tooltips for 20% less than a breath of life and provides a unique debuff of 12%-damage-taken on the individual too ergo equating to needing MORE healing on average rather than LESS to succeed.
Werewolf is also a unique case in that if you don't beat your opponent's HPS, THEY DON'T DIE. This is UNLIKE ANY OTHER playstyle in this game that can rely on SOME level of burst to achieve the goal of defeating an opponent WITHOUT overwhelming their HPS. This isn't a playstyle that has a tremendous amount of give against competent opponents with high resource sustain (CoF and CoE) in addition to high healing (especially with any off-heals in the mix).
If I fight another werewolf averaging 3k DPS to my 5K HPS, they AREN'T KILLING ME- that's just how it is. That's them 'trying to build sustain and health for their own healing' and objectively not doing enough damage.
What data of any kind do you provide here, now? I want to know. I answer your questions, I give rebuttals; other people provide information to you, yet you 'sweep it under the rug' and go on further tangents and ask more questions.
When can you provide something meaningful to the conversation? I grow tired of talking in circles.
Wow you're missing the point in a big way.
There's no data I can provide here because my goals and your goals aren't the same. Also it's very much feeling based because there is no universal measure of anything you're talking about.
I'm not debating was there a nerf because that's not a question.
The question is how good or bad is ww post nerf and that's all feeling.
Sure you can say hey if xyz class can do it then why can't this skill line do it? But your comparing a skill line to a class and that's apples and oranges first of all.
There is no known metric in eso of what a nuanced thing should be.
Even if you say you can't do something, you're only speaking for yourself without a massive amount of multi player based data to back it up, which none of us has.
Your evidence is actually anecdotal even though you're providing data because you're only providing your data. For it to hold we would need to see the same data from several players and even then we have to expand to the multi thousand scenarios that the eso experience can provide.
To be fair and respectful to a logical and investigative process, you're one person or maybe even a few people reporting on something that has several thousand scenarios that you didn't test. It's an interesting read and gives some ideas for the devs to look at but it's nowhere near as telling as actually seeing the numbers in effect on live where many other players including console can chip in
To me the data anyone gives is just a clue to the devs where to look but this game has too many scenarios in this case for any one or even 10 data points to tell the story especially when a consensus can't be easily gained
The only fact we all agree on is that werewolf got nerfed. Past that I've mostly just seen personal preference on what people believe is personally acceptable.
There is no 'feeling' in what I relayed.
As per usual- you aren't actually reading responses and immediately going for discredit with no data or pertinent information.
You have missed my point in a bigger way.
Someone else can kindly go back and forth with you, I'm good here for this very moment on that note- thank you!
I'm happy to provide crazy amounts of data when you can say that you'll accept that what I say is acceptable is acceptable and that there's no longer a question. Deal?
No it's not a deal because that would be ridiculous because your goals aren't mine.
So what data would you like me to provide? I never even said ww was fine just that one or a few persons isn't enough to go off of.
Even if I say pts werewolf is ok you've just going to dismiss it as me not wanting what you want so what's the point?
Don't respond if you don't like. I'm certainly not here to even remotely trying to force a discussion from those that aren't interested. Put me on ignore if you like but I have and will share my opinion on the topic at my discretion, same as anyone here.
Wth are you talking about? Emo much?Edited by gammelscroll on August 25, 2026 6:33PM0