Panderbander wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-



His vigor-



My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):



Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You don't want sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity but at the same time you think WW having build diversity reduced by being forced into playing Sorc for CoE is somehow fine? Make it make sense.

You are aware that Mag WW will no longer be viable, yes? You are aware that pretty much both Skills that are considered WW's spammable will run you out of Stam within a few fights, and Stam builds that have next to no Mag will have maybe three or four Hircine's in them before they're also out of Mag AND Stam, yes? Because I'm seeing this on the PTS myself in testing a few different builds.

WW in PvE will NOT be fine if these changes go live as they are. Build diversity, which you're claiming to care about, will be reduced when Mag WW is no longer viable and even Stam characters are burning through Stam in a couple of fights unless they're a Sorc. I guess the build diversity only matters when it's for any other play-style but WW.

They do not care. The only thing they do care about is that werewolf is nerfed, as they were also one of the loudest voices during the U50 PTS trying to tear it down while also gloating about "winning" when ZOS did reduce its power substantially.

This is not a person to engage in good faith arguments with.

Arunei wrote: »

Panderbander wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

WW is fine

Forcing all werewolves in PvP to sorc is not fine.

Sorc being the only class to mitigate the change (which in and of itself is also not fine) tells me that it was a huge part of the problem for ‘over-the-top’ sustain on werewolf, not general costs- adjusting general costs by double and tripling costs everywhere (PvP and PvE) instead of potentially adjusting sustain somewhat and then adjusting this mastery/ adjusting werewolf masteries all-together for PvP is not fine.

Forcing werewolves to build health with less effective health (for the purpose of being able to heal themselves) than any other class due to lack of minor resolve, morph-dependent minor and major protection, lack of sword and board back bar/passives while providing no real and viable alternatives for wep/spell scaling and primary resource (stam) stack is not fine.

The only wep/spell damage heal (in other words, the only heal I could pivot to in order to build reasonable sustain now through increased max stam and decreased healing everywhere else) is woefully underpowered and additionally causes me to take another 12% damage (so even less effective health).

For example:

My DK (in 2 defensive sets) who also has CoE to meaningfully restore both resources:

His Coag-



His vigor-



My wolf (on a proc damage build with points allocated in stam to simulate increased scaling and ‘building a decent stam pool’ for sustain):



Keep in mind that my DK has even more effective health per point than my wolf (again), has CoE for ‘infinite stam and mag sustain’ (again), and his vigor and Coag alone significantly trumps Hircine’s Rage (only ‘on demand’ wep/spell heal for my wolf); my DK, of course, also having a plethora of other on-demand heals too through Ash Cloud, Battle Roar, etc.

You reduce the sustain for my werewolf (which was nearly perfect on a non-Sorc; go play one live and see), but require me to build even more health (less effective health than the next-best non-werewolf mind you) to achieve the same level of healing and leave the wep/spell scaling healing in an atrocious state.

They reduced damage, cut dot uptimes, and removed major and minor defile for a rework that instead focuses on ‘sustained damage’… now they’re removing the sustain for all but sorc and affecting PvE despite them ‘being happy with it’, which is them clearly going back on their promise for viable mag wolves and providing no real alternatives… that’s not fine.

*not to mention they just fully turned of all animation cosmetics for werewolf (recalls especially) which were working absolutely fine (I’d rather have access to existing recalls with janky animations for some than none). Outright disabling these cosmetics (instead of just adding a disclaimer later and discontinuing future animation cosmetics) without as much as a second thought is not fine.

Comparing WW to DK while other classes (except for Sorc) are average or bottom barrel is wild. It's like 2 dudes complaining whose million dollar house got a worse backyard while everyone else is living in an apartment or condo.

Your WW will be fine. It'll stalemate vs Sorc and U51 DK, and it'll still be better than NB, Templar, Arc, and Necro.

You didn’t read anything I wrote… anyways, your sorc will be ‘fine’ when they gut that passive completely too (I know how badly you want to keep it, it allows me to go no sustain on my stam sorc also).

WW and DK are the only reworked classes. Obviously when I’m talking about the new reworked level I’m not referring to a pure class NB. It’s the same conversation we’d have if they ever rework Warden, I’m not comparing it to what a ‘live Arcanist can do’.

Beyond that, obliterating werewolf sustain on all but sorc doesn’t help NB, Arcanist, Templar, or Warden- sorry. Nothing short of an ‘unrework’ and/or significant buffs to them/their masteries will do that.

Lol, I don't even use Conservation anymore. Before U50, I already played my Sorc with 900 recovery, so it wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

The next rework is in 2027. Nobody is going to wait that long while getting dunked on by reworked classes.

You were just on that other thread arguing with me about how you don’t want its sustain nerfed. Huh??

You’re telling me you went from hard defending it keeping the resource sustain to no longer using it???

Edit: this thread here- https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697201/dk-will-continue-to-reign-in-u51-what-a-complete-disaster#latest

I don't want the sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity, not because I can't crutch on it. All my builds pre U50 were already in Tri Stat food with sub 1k recovery, so nerfing it wouldn't somehow make me less effective. If anything, it would impact every other Sorc who isn't a top tier player. Top tier Sorcs like me will do just fine.

You don't want sustain nerfed because it reduces build diversity but at the same time you think WW having build diversity reduced by being forced into playing Sorc for CoE is somehow fine? Make it make sense.

You are aware that Mag WW will no longer be viable, yes? You are aware that pretty much both Skills that are considered WW's spammable will run you out of Stam within a few fights, and Stam builds that have next to no Mag will have maybe three or four Hircine's in them before they're also out of Mag AND Stam, yes? Because I'm seeing this on the PTS myself in testing a few different builds.

WW in PvE will NOT be fine if these changes go live as they are. Build diversity, which you're claiming to care about, will be reduced when Mag WW is no longer viable and even Stam characters are burning through Stam in a couple of fights unless they're a Sorc. I guess the build diversity only matters when it's for any other play-style but WW.

They do not care. The only thing they do care about is that werewolf is nerfed, as they were also one of the loudest voices during the U50 PTS trying to tear it down while also gloating about "winning" when ZOS did reduce its power substantially.

This is not a person to engage in good faith arguments with.

Indeed they are not, I see my comment to them went unaddressed. And yes, I remember them being one of the biggest advocates of nerfing WW during the U50 PTS cycle. Some people really seem to want WW to remain a meme for some reason. Especially when they act like the sustain isn't a problem. Myself and others are seeing on the PTS right now how much CoE gives to WW, to the point where if you aren't running a Sorc you'll be running on E within one or two fights, depending on how long they last.

This is why CoE needs to be looked at before WW gets slapped with costs near to what they were before U50 on top of not getting the Stam Recovery buff back. Reduce the values by half, make it only work with damaging Skills instead of any that have a cost, literally anything but leaving it as it is and punishing WW players who don't want to play Stam Sorcs.

acanca wrote: »

100%, agreed. But do you think lets say nb ww was a problem? Have you ever seen an arcanist ww? I mean i played one for a while, both the 15% damage done and major force are prety good class masteries. But i think we both know why those werent an issue.
I think we both know that the issue was and still is Conservation of Energy, specially after signets nuke.

And here is the funny thing, the builds that use it, are going to be absolutely fine after the nerf.

That means one of two things, either they nerf ww again because the nerfs were targeted poorly and the problem will persist.
Or two, they finally nerf Conservation of Energy because at this point even some one deaf and blind can see and hear the signs that that class mastery is way too good.

And as a result ww will be a joke because the build will soon be hard crutching on Conservation of Energy for both healing and sustain. Which is fine, but a bit of a shame really.