Molten Whip and Flame Lash are not the problem.

Bushido2513 · August 17

santinojonny wrote: »

Yeah, Molten Whip doesn’t need a nerf. I can hit for over 20k with it because I’m running 88% Critical Damage and hitting five people with the ultimate “Thrive in Chaos” while also using Balorgh, which gives me a huge buff for 12 and 15 seconds. Only then can I hit these insanely high Molten Whips on people who are not careful.

If you nerf it, I’m just going to do the same thing on a subclassed NB and hit 20k+ Spectral Bows there instead. DK will once again become a full tank/DoT class without any real burst potential.

That’s not really what we need. The HoF skill is the most problematic one, but it’s already embedded into the DK rotation.

Hitting 15 - 20k whips doesn't always require as much setup as you make it out to be. Over the last month I was testing variations of tanks and healers and whips were one of the few things that just zeroed me out. Obviously it wasn't just someone walking up and doing a whip, there was setup, but it was fairly repeatable across multiple players and didn't seem convoluted. Though yes, some hot harder than others. Overall the damage was much higher than other things.

I can recall when subclassing was new and everyone had spec bow. It was rough as well but pure class buffs and changes in stealth make it easier to deal with than a dk currently.

If this change goes through DK will still kill players, just not mow them down openly with little time to be reacted to.

NovelliESO · August 17

santinojonny wrote: »

Yeah, Molten Whip doesn’t need a nerf. I can hit for over 20k with it because I’m running 88% Critical Damage and hitting five people with the ultimate “Thrive in Chaos” while also using Balorgh, which gives me a huge buff for 12 and 15 seconds. Only then can I hit these insanely high Molten Whips on people who are not careful.

If you nerf it, I’m just going to do the same thing on a subclassed NB and hit 20k+ Spectral Bows there instead. DK will once again become a full tank/DoT class without any real burst potential.

That’s not really what we need. The HoF skill is the most problematic one, but it’s already embedded into the DK rotation.

There is no inherent problem if a class has one extremely strong skill. The problem exists when the entire kit of DK has an edge over every other class. Multiple skills in ardent flame alone are too strong, never mind DK as a whole. Having to subclass in to a specific NB line just for bow is going to do a lot less than being a pure DK or subclassing into ardent flame as another class. Whip needed a nerf, and deservedly got one.

Wuuffyy · August 17

NovelliESO wrote: »

santinojonny wrote: »

Yeah, Molten Whip doesn’t need a nerf. I can hit for over 20k with it because I’m running 88% Critical Damage and hitting five people with the ultimate “Thrive in Chaos” while also using Balorgh, which gives me a huge buff for 12 and 15 seconds. Only then can I hit these insanely high Molten Whips on people who are not careful.

If you nerf it, I’m just going to do the same thing on a subclassed NB and hit 20k+ Spectral Bows there instead. DK will once again become a full tank/DoT class without any real burst potential.

That’s not really what we need. The HoF skill is the most problematic one, but it’s already embedded into the DK rotation.

There is no inherent problem if a class has one extremely strong skill. The problem exists when the entire kit of DK has an edge over every other class. Multiple skills in ardent flame alone are too strong, never mind DK as a whole. Having to subclass in to a specific NB line just for bow is going to do a lot less than being a pure DK or subclassing into ardent flame as another class. Whip needed a nerf, and deservedly got one.

Not to mention NB never had multiple delayed burst skills and a viable delayed CC to boot. The comparison to bow is absolutely a moot point regarding ‘DK burst’.

santinojonny · August 17

There is no inherent problem if a class has one extremely strong skill. The problem exists when the entire kit of DK has an edge over every other class. Multiple skills in ardent flame alone are too strong, never mind DK as a whole. Having to subclass in to a specific NB line just for bow is going to do a lot less than being a pure DK or subclassing into ardent flame as another class. Whip needed a nerf, and deservedly got one.

I agree with you, of course. I meant the Warden Nightblade Sorc/Temp build, where I am quite tanky and can reliably hit 20k Spec Bows. Or a full pen full class NB can still do it too I think, just too weak overall atm.

Regarding Bushido2513’s response, I disagree. If I don’t have any setup, my Whip hits like a wet noodle. And against tanks or tanky healers, even with the full setup, the damage is pretty low. I didn’t mean that you won’t be able to kill anyone on DK without the burst potential. But it will turn DK into an ugly pressure/DoT class again with endless healing and sustain.

I am playing my DK very squishy, in 5 medium, with high single-target damage. Take away some of my recovery and DoTs, and maybe make the healing require more timing or something—I don’t know. But making Whip hit nowhere near a Spec Bow is going to make me stop playing DK, which isn’t a problem for me per se, as I prefer Nightblade anyway.

I could try a full Nightblade considering the upcoming buffs, especially if you can actually one-tap people who aren’t careful.

Turtle_Bot · August 17

Seems like all the fear over whip being "deleted" was all for nothing.

Whip is now a 150% scaling burst instead of 200% scaling burst (PvP only adjustment)
Lash got an 18% nerf to it's proc (will be barely noticeable) and grants 3% damage done (to monsters)

Both abilities will still hit for well over 10k (likely still hit for over 15k too), especially since there's now 2 extra stacks on Landslide, that also builds up twice as fast (every 5/4 seconds instead of 10/5s) and falls off 3x slower (every 6 seconds you don't generate a stack instead of 2 seconds of not dealing damage), meaning much easier and longer uptime on landslide and an increase to landslides total buffs as well.

SugaComa · August 17

truth is even that isnt going to fix pvp but there is a way they could:

The mistake wasn’t trying to improve PvE balance; it was applying PvE’s definition of balance to PvP.

PvE balance asks: “Can different builds produce competitive damage, healing and support?”
PvP balance asks: “What must this build sacrifice in exchange for its damage, healing, mobility or defence?”

Older ESO wasn’t necessarily perfectly balanced numerically, but it was often better counterbalanced. Advantages came with visible costs:

A Stamina brawler could attack, block and chase effectively, but all three exhausted the same resource.
A Magicka build had strong class abilities and healing, but depended upon a smaller Stamina pool for physical defence.

Hybridisation helped PvE by allowing more classes, races and weapon combinations to achieve competitive output. But in PvP, it gradually removed the invoice attached to each advantage. Builds could access strong damage, healing, blocking, mobility and defensive buffs without making sufficiently severe sacrifices.

Update 51 pushes further in that direction by combining the remaining Weapon/Spell Damage and critical buffs. It then tries to repair PvP consequences through individual cost increases, healing reductions and PvP-only numerical modifiers.

And here’s the important part: ZOS already separates PvE and PvP rules.

The current Week 3 PTS patch halves Molten Whip’s bonus specifically in PvP, gives Flame Lash a monsters-only damage bonus, restricts Earthspike Mantle’s damage bonus to monsters, and halves Draugrkin’s relevant effect under Battle Spirit. Those divisions are explicit in PTS v12.1.2.

So “we can’t have different PvE and PvP behaviour” is no longer a credible objection. They already do. The difference is that they’re separating individual numbers when they should consider separating the governing rules.

Battle Spirit 2.0

PvE could retain Update 51 hybridisation. Entering Cyrodiil, Imperial City or Battlegrounds would apply a complete warfare ruleset:

The active weapon determines whether offensive and defensive class skills use Stamina/Weapon Strength or Magicka/Spell Strength.
Genuine magical healing always scales from Magicka.
Armour becomes a consumable protection pool before Health.
Armour cannot recover until the character leaves combat.
Heavy pieces increase Stamina and reduce Magicka.
Light pieces increase Magicka and reduce Stamina.
Medium pieces provide smaller amounts of both.
Heavy Armour resists martial damage but is vulnerable to magic.
Light Armour resists magic but collapses against martial attacks.
Medium Armour provides moderate protection and gains stealth, dodge and bow advantages.
Blocking reduces Armour damage but never restores Armour.
PvP tooltips display the warfare version of every affected statistic.

That would preserve modern PvE build freedom while returning consequence and counterplay to PvP.

aLi3nZ · August 19

They say they nerfed molten whip 50% at max stacks.

And toned down the damage on power lash? What is the details on power lash. I don’t use Molton whip personally so I need to know how much power loss exactly on power lash.

Honestly it’s incredibly over powered right now so I’m sure it will be fine even 50% cut on power - particularly with corrosive armour up.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

aLi3nZ wrote: »

They say they nerfed molten whip 50% at max stacks.

And toned down the damage on power lash? What is the details on power lash. I don’t use Molton whip personally so I need to know how much power loss exactly on power lash.

Honestly it’s incredibly over powered right now so I’m sure it will be fine even 50% cut on power - particularly with corrosive armour up.

Power Lash got the proc reduced by 18% (screenshot of the patch note is a couple of posts above).

A very small nerf in the grand scheme of things, especially with landslide getting buffed at the same time.

Wup_sa · August 20

Everything you said is correct, but doupt that the devs will listen. People are very short sighted and never look into what allowes these bursts to happen. At least we still have onslaught to do one shot combos with gorethief

aLi3nZ · August 20

I disagree, power lash and max stack hit from Molten whip is absolutely a problem.

Whip Is a much easier way to delete players in PvP.

Much easier then for example: Onslaught, curse, frags, armaments with hopium because that combo isn’t that reliable.

Meanwhile dk can use onslaught or corrosive with power lash stacks ready or Molten whip along with all their random massive aoe damage skills and basically just 1 button people down.

I know because I tested even running oakensole 1 bar dk with corrosive. Just so much easier basically pressing 1 button to delete multiple players using aoe damage whips. Meanwhile sorc can only just pray their single target, lack of cleave combo is timed exactly right and does enough damage which it won’t if vs a dk running wings for 50 damn percent mitigation. Which is not changing at all btw.

Bushido2513 · August 20

santinojonny wrote: »

There is no inherent problem if a class has one extremely strong skill. The problem exists when the entire kit of DK has an edge over every other class. Multiple skills in ardent flame alone are too strong, never mind DK as a whole. Having to subclass in to a specific NB line just for bow is going to do a lot less than being a pure DK or subclassing into ardent flame as another class. Whip needed a nerf, and deservedly got one.

I agree with you, of course. I meant the Warden Nightblade Sorc/Temp build, where I am quite tanky and can reliably hit 20k Spec Bows. Or a full pen full class NB can still do it too I think, just too weak overall atm.

Regarding Bushido2513’s response, I disagree. If I don’t have any setup, my Whip hits like a wet noodle. And against tanks or tanky healers, even with the full setup, the damage is pretty low. I didn’t mean that you won’t be able to kill anyone on DK without the burst potential. But it will turn DK into an ugly pressure/DoT class again with endless healing and sustain.

I am playing my DK very squishy, in 5 medium, with high single-target damage. Take away some of my recovery and DoTs, and maybe make the healing require more timing or something—I don’t know. But making Whip hit nowhere near a Spec Bow is going to make me stop playing DK, which isn’t a problem for me per se, as I prefer Nightblade anyway.

I could try a full Nightblade considering the upcoming buffs, especially if you can actually one-tap people who aren’t careful.

I agree that setup is required to varying degrees. I'm just saying that it's repeatable enough across multiple players to where it's not that uncommon.

I usually try to remember names of hard hitting players that stand out. With DK it just more so became easier to say well it was a DK that killed me not a specific player.

Again to be fair it's not all dks that hit hard, but enough to suggest it's more about copying a build and repeatable rotation than just a really good player.

I've faced the Warden blade of course and I'd take them over dk easily. They can still zero you out but the pattern takes time and can be avoided. I see them prep shalks and go into my direction so I have time to counter. With DK it happens all the time in a second with little or no time to react, just a death recap. This is even on tanks and healers where I can handle multiple hard hitting wolves even and a spec bow is mostly no problem.

I'm not saying nerf the thing that killed me. I'm saying nerf the thing that is killing me and other players with a decently repeatable combo that also has tank like defense and hard to beat sustain with the ability to remove all my armor.

Give me the same or similar ability to react that I seem to have with other classes.

guarstompemoji · August 20

DKs are not used in pve comps as DPS. It's...bad.

Perhaps others' experience is different.

Do appreciate the posts abt reaction and counterplay options. The dk discussion needs some nuance.