Class Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills Synergize Too Well with Werewolf Form

twing1_ · August 15

The Problem:

To start this off, I want to post a link to a Werewolf build that I've been having fun with the for the last few weeks, but want to bring attention to because its existence is not good for the health of ESO as a game. This is a build that abuses some of the synergies between Werewolf form and some of the Class Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills that were intended to help prop up pure-class styles of play: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=721189

If you are not comfortable clicking the outside link, the build outlines your typical Sorcerer Oakensoul Werewolf Berserker build that is wearing the Sorcerer-specific item set, Beacon of Oblivion, that is sourced from Infinite Archive and the PvP set Buffer of the Swift with one piece of Trainee. It has nearly maxed resistances, 33k health and 30k stam, almost every minor/major buff available, an unnamed +15% bonus to damage done, and unnamed +15% bonus to healing done, and an unnamed -10% modifier to damage taken. The largest offender to game balance here is the Sorcerer-specific Beacon of Oblivion set that synergizes far too well with Werewolf builds.

If you are not familiar with this set, its set bonuses are as follows:

This set provides nice, flexible bonuses to Sorcerer players that vary depending on whether or not they are running a pet or a non-pet build. On a Sorcerer character, for which the set is specifically designed for and balanced around, the set functions very well, and IMO is pretty well balanced. It provides a bit of tankiness to Pet Sorcerer builds, but also provides a sizeable damage bonus to Non-Pet Sorcerer builds while also propping up their healing capabilities, as is desperately needed for this playstyle on account of their relatively weak healing capabilities.

Even though it is specifically designed for and balanced around various Sorcerer playstyles, the entirety of its item bonuses are also granted to Sorcerer players while they are in Werewolf form. Sorcerer Werewolves who choose the Pack Leader morph of Werewolf Transformation are able to take advantage of the extra health and armor granted to those with permanent pets because the accompanying direwolves are classified as such, while players that choose the Werewolf Berserker morph are granted the bonuses of +15% damage done and +15% healing done, even while in Werewolf form. This bonus is halved to 7% in PvP scenarios (via the Battle Spirit stipulation), but even then it is all too powerful of an item set bonus to be providing to Werewolf players. The Sorcerer-specific Beacon of Oblivion gives Werewolf PvP players a bonus of +7% damage done and +7% healing done, which is more potent than the specifically designed set for Werewolves, Savage Werewolf, which grants a dedicated Werewolf player a +6% damage done bonus and a bleed damage proc.

In addition to taking advantage of this Sorcerer-specific item set, my Werewolf build is also able to activate and take advantage of the following Sorcerer-specific class mastery skills:

Static Reverberation

and

Conservation of Energy

Blood Magic tooltip, for reference:

These mastery skills, which were designed and balanced specifically around Sorcerer playstyles, provide very strong bonuses to Sorcerer players that effectively keeps pure-class Sorcerer builds competitive with multi-classed alternatives. Though these mastery skills are undoubtedly very potent on Sorcerer players, they are specifically designed to fill in weaknesses present to the Sorcerer toolkit, and do not overwhelmingly break the game balance when used in this way. However, these mastery skills also have very general proc conditions that are not specific to Sorcerer playstyles which allows them to also be taken advantage of by Werewolf builds.

Because the Werewolf toolkit does not share the same weaknesses as the Sorcerer toolkit, which the Sorcerer-specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills were specifically designed to address, the interaction between Beacon of Oblivion, Static Reverberation, and Conservation of energy with Werewolf form creates some overwhelmingly powerful stat density that breaks game balance and is problematic for the health of ESO. The Non-Pet Sorcerer toolkit's major weakness is its access to strong healing skills, so it makes sense that Beacon of Oblivion and Conservation of Energy help even out this weakness. Werewolves, however, already have incredibly strong healing, including a very potent burst heal that is procced by their spammable damage and execute ability, Rip and Tear. The bonuses to healing and damage that these Sorcerer-specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills provide only further enhance what is already one of the greatest strengths of the Werewolf toolkit, which creates some pretty insane numbers.

If you dig around the build I shared earlier, you will notice that the tooltip for the spammable "Rip and Tear" offers almost 17k non-crit damage (halved in PvP) and 9.5k healing (also halved in PvP). Activating this skill, however, also procs Conservation of Energy, which heals me for an additional 4.5k health in addition to refunding me 600 stamina and 440 magicka. That means that the tooltip numbers for activating this one skill are 17k damage that scales as an execute ability, 600 stamina returned and 440 magicka returned, and also over 14k in healing that is further buffed by the passive Major Vitality that Werewolf players get and also the healing received bonuses for heavy armor. After taking into account all of the different healing modifiers within my build, this single button press heals me for 17.7k non-crit or 28.3k crit (both halved in PvP), in addition to giving me strong resource return and also dealing 17k of scaling execute damage to my opponent.

Hircine's Fortitude, my dedicated burst heal, has a tooltip value of 18k healing but also triggers the additional 4.5k healing from Conservation of Energy, which, after my healing modifiers are taken into account, ticks for 28.5k non-crit healing and 45.6k (!) crit healing (halved in PvP).

Those numbers are insane.

Though a lot of you who read this post may believe the problem to be these specific Item Sets or Class Mastery Skills, this is actually all just a symptom of a larger problem within the game's design: tools designed specifically to synergize with a particular playstyle, like Class Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills, are currently synergizing with builds and playstyles outside of that which they are specifically intended and designed for.

The Solution:

The solution to this problem is to completely eliminate unintended synergies between Class-Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills with alternative playstyles like Werewolf.

An example of this would be to make all Class-Specific Item Sets function ONLY while playing the respective pure-class form of that class. Or, if synergies between these item sets and multi-classed builds are intended, they should all at least ONLY provide benefits while in human form.

Similarly, all Class Mastery Skills should require interaction with their respective Class Toolkit to be taken advantage of. Ex/ "when activating a skill of the xxx skill line", or "provides yyy bonus to skills from the xxx skill line", etc.

This has proven itself to be a recurring problem, particularly and unfortunately within Werewolf builds, that have resulted in unwarranted and unnecessary nerfs to entire playstyles and specific item sets without addressing the root problem. The most recent example of this is the general and blanket sustain nerf to Werewolves that hit the weakest Werewolf builds the hardest (more on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697306/werewolf-sustain-nerf-hits-the-weakest-ww-builds-hardest-and-doesnt-address-problem-areas#latest) without addressing the problematic Werewolf builds abusing the tools designed for Class-specific interaction, like Class Item Sets and Mastery Skills.

It is fine, and IMO a great addition to the game, to have resources that are specifically designed to prop up certain and specific playstyles, like pure-class play or Werewolf playstyles, but as long as these tools are allowed to synergize with alternative playstyles that do not share the same strengths and weaknesses of the intended one, problems will arise.

As long as the design philosophy does not completely prevent boons specifically designed and intended for certain playstyles from interacting with alternative playstyles, there will always exist the continuous need to meticulously micromanage and balance specific aspects of the game whenever a symptom of this larger problem arises. The problem today is Werewolf form interacting with Class-specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills, but tomorrow it could be something else entirely.

It is long past time that a higher level of intention and deliberateness be given to isolating certain elements from the game from others, but a good starting point to move forward would be to completely prevent Class-Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills from synergizing with Werewolf form.

HunterDawn · August 16

In practice, this set performs significantly worse than damage/penetration sets and proc-based gear. The 7% damage bonus is reduced by armor mitigation, yielding an actual damage gain of around 4%. I tested it on live for some time and found it to be a subpar damage set. Its disjointed stat buffs leave it lacking in every area.😅

acanca · August 16

you probably should have mentioned aeries cry or something

twing1_ · August 16

HunterDawn wrote: »

In practice, this set performs significantly worse than damage/penetration sets and proc-based gear. The 7% damage bonus is reduced by armor mitigation, yielding an actual damage gain of around 4%. I tested it on live for some time and found it to be a subpar damage set. Its disjointed stat buffs leave it lacking in every area.😅

Weapon/spell damage sets are also reduced by armor mitigation, so the comparison there is quite apples-to-apples. On the linked build, to reach the same tooltip damage as the 7% damage done bonus using only bonuses to weapon/spell damage, an additional ~400 weapon/spell damage must be sourced. Roughly 661 penetration equates to a 1% increase in damage, so to achieve the rough equivalent of Beacon of Oblivion's 7% damage increase via raw penetration, about ~4,627 penetration must be sourced. The offensive bonus that Beacon of Oblivion provides is definitely significant.

Both of these values can be surpassed by other offensive sets, such as Clever Alchemist or Twice-Fanged Serpent, but these sets lack the defensive boon that the 7% healing done from Beacon of Oblivion adds to a Werewolf build. The fact that Werewolf's heals scale off of max health and not offensive stats makes this bonus all the more valuable to Werewolf builds, as normally increasing their offensive power does not also increase their healing.

Damage proc sets are in the same boat where they can also reach a higher offensive ceiling than Beacon of Oblivion, but similarly lack the defensive capabilities of this set.

While the offensive boost that Beacon of Oblivion provides to Werewolves is nice, its definitely the bonus to healing done that makes this set extremely strong to Werewolf builds IMO. One of the biggest complaints I hear from the top Werewolf players is that Werewolves don't have any significant heals that scale off of offensive stats. A werewolf player has to choose between increasing their offensive capabilities or increasing their healing by adding max health. They cannot do both sinultaneously.

This set allows them to do just that, and to my knowledge, this is the only set in the game that gives Werewolf builds such a potent bonus to their offensive capabilities while simultaneously giving them an equally potent increase to their healing.

I find that Beacon of Oblivion, in addition to providing similar levels of offense as some of the alternative offensive sets, provides me with enough added survivability to easily survive most 1vX scenarios, even on the Werewolf Berserker morph.

HunterDawn · August 16

twing1_ wrote: »

HunterDawn wrote: »

In practice, this set performs significantly worse than damage/penetration sets and proc-based gear. The 7% damage bonus is reduced by armor mitigation, yielding an actual damage gain of around 4%. I tested it on live for some time and found it to be a subpar damage set. Its disjointed stat buffs leave it lacking in every area.😅

Weapon/spell damage sets are also reduced by armor mitigation, so the comparison there is quite apples-to-apples. On the linked build, to reach the same tooltip damage as the 7% damage done bonus using only bonuses to weapon/spell damage, an additional ~400 weapon/spell damage must be sourced. Roughly 661 penetration equates to a 1% increase in damage, so to achieve the rough equivalent of Beacon of Oblivion's 7% damage increase via raw penetration, about ~4,627 penetration must be sourced. The offensive bonus that Beacon of Oblivion provides is definitely significant.

Both of these values can be surpassed by other offensive sets, such as Clever Alchemist or Twice-Fanged Serpent, but these sets lack the defensive boon that the 7% healing done from Beacon of Oblivion adds to a Werewolf build. The fact that Werewolf's heals scale off of max health and not offensive stats makes this bonus all the more valuable to Werewolf builds, as normally increasing their offensive power does not also increase their healing.

Damage proc sets are in the same boat where they can also reach a higher offensive ceiling than Beacon of Oblivion, but similarly lack the defensive capabilities of this set.

While the offensive boost that Beacon of Oblivion provides to Werewolves is nice, its definitely the bonus to healing done that makes this set extremely strong to Werewolf builds IMO. To my knowledge, this is the only set in the game that gives Werewolf builds such a potent bonus to their offensive capabilities while simultaneously giving them an equally potent increase to their healing.

I find that Beacon of Oblivion, in addition to providing similar levels as some of the alternative offensive sets, provides me with enough added survivability to easily survive most 1vX scenarios, even on the Werewolf Berserker morph.

At 40k Health on Werewolf in PvP, a 7% healing effectiveness bonus translates to less than an extra 800 healing😅

twing1_ · August 16

HunterDawn wrote: »

twing1_ wrote: »

HunterDawn wrote: »

In practice, this set performs significantly worse than damage/penetration sets and proc-based gear. The 7% damage bonus is reduced by armor mitigation, yielding an actual damage gain of around 4%. I tested it on live for some time and found it to be a subpar damage set. Its disjointed stat buffs leave it lacking in every area.😅

Weapon/spell damage sets are also reduced by armor mitigation, so the comparison there is quite apples-to-apples. On the linked build, to reach the same tooltip damage as the 7% damage done bonus using only bonuses to weapon/spell damage, an additional ~400 weapon/spell damage must be sourced. Roughly 661 penetration equates to a 1% increase in damage, so to achieve the rough equivalent of Beacon of Oblivion's 7% damage increase via raw penetration, about ~4,627 penetration must be sourced. The offensive bonus that Beacon of Oblivion provides is definitely significant.

Both of these values can be surpassed by other offensive sets, such as Clever Alchemist or Twice-Fanged Serpent, but these sets lack the defensive boon that the 7% healing done from Beacon of Oblivion adds to a Werewolf build. The fact that Werewolf's heals scale off of max health and not offensive stats makes this bonus all the more valuable to Werewolf builds, as normally increasing their offensive power does not also increase their healing.

Damage proc sets are in the same boat where they can also reach a higher offensive ceiling than Beacon of Oblivion, but similarly lack the defensive capabilities of this set.

While the offensive boost that Beacon of Oblivion provides to Werewolves is nice, its definitely the bonus to healing done that makes this set extremely strong to Werewolf builds IMO. To my knowledge, this is the only set in the game that gives Werewolf builds such a potent bonus to their offensive capabilities while simultaneously giving them an equally potent increase to their healing.

I find that Beacon of Oblivion, in addition to providing similar levels as some of the alternative offensive sets, provides me with enough added survivability to easily survive most 1vX scenarios, even on the Werewolf Berserker morph.

At 40k Health on Werewolf in PvP, a 7% healing effectiveness bonus translates to less than an extra 800 healing😅

It's about the equivalent of adding another 2k hp to your max hp pool, and stronger than minor vitality. It isn't insignificant.

Compare it to the 5pc bonus of the Order of Diagna set. Its 4% weaker in healing done, but is also accompanied by the equivalent of ~400 weapon/spell damage.

thepandalore · August 16

You hate fun.

Tommy_The_Gun · August 16

Conservation of Energy imho should have:
"This effect does not work while under the effect of transformation" or "with sorcerer ability slotted on either bar" type of restriction. Alternatively it could have "this effect is reduced X% (something huge, like 80 at minimum) while battle spirit is active"

Problematic class mastery passives like this should have had limitations added day 1, no question about it. Just like with NB critical dmg class mastery passive, ZOS knew it might be OP in PvP, so they added a limitation BEFORE IT WENT LIVE (Just imagine how many "nerf threads" more would there be if they didn't). A lot of troubles could have been avoided.

In case of Conservation of Energy passive, I think the reason why they are not adding limitations is that there is no option that would remove synergy from PVP WW without affecting something else.

Personally, I think that the least restricting would be the need to have Sorc ability slotted for the passive to work. That way it won't work on a WW, but then again - it won't work on a WW in PvE too, so there is the problem.

Other options (like reducing the effectives of this passive when battle spirit is on) would also eliminate WW problem, but would affect all sorcs in PvP.

Making the effect not working while under the effect of transformation would also work, but it would affect Vamps & PvE too.

^ So, as you can see, there no ideal solution, but imho all of these solutions are definitely better that what ZOS is currently doing - reducing WW value sliders till no one plays it. The issue is that with current WW on PTS, no class will be able to play it EXCEPT for sorc - which is the opposite of the current problem. Right now, already sorc WW is the best and other classes can play it, but no as good (it is an entirely different league). After the update - sorc WW will be mostly unaffected while other classes will even struggle to stay in WW form solo on a pack leader due to skill costs.

^ So the "WW nerf threads" will still be popping-up here & there. So they will keep nerfing it, until even sorcs won't play it. Paradox is that WW is getting nerfed due to something outside of their toolkit. And it is all due to sorc class mastery passive being broken, but most sorc mains are too afraid to accept it.

gammelscroll · August 16

twing1_ wrote: »

The Problem:

To start this off, I want to post a link to a Werewolf build that I've been having fun with the for the last few weeks, but want to bring attention to because its existence is not good for the health of ESO as a game. This is a build that abuses some of the synergies between Werewolf form and some of the Class Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills that were intended to help prop up pure-class styles of play: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildEditor?id=721189

If you are not comfortable clicking the outside link, the build outlines your typical Sorcerer Oakensoul Werewolf Berserker build that is wearing the Sorcerer-specific item set, Beacon of Oblivion, that is sourced from Infinite Archive and the PvP set Buffer of the Swift with one piece of Trainee. It has nearly maxed resistances, 33k health and 30k stam, almost every minor/major buff available, an unnamed +15% bonus to damage done, and unnamed +15% bonus to healing done, and an unnamed -10% modifier to damage taken. The largest offender to game balance here is the Sorcerer-specific Beacon of Oblivion set that synergizes far too well with Werewolf builds.

If you are not familiar with this set, its set bonuses are as follows:

This set provides nice, flexible bonuses to Sorcerer players that vary depending on whether or not they are running a pet or a non-pet build. On a Sorcerer character, for which the set is specifically designed for and balanced around, the set functions very well, and IMO is pretty well balanced. It provides a bit of tankiness to Pet Sorcerer builds, but also provides a sizeable damage bonus to Non-Pet Sorcerer builds while also propping up their healing capabilities, as is desperately needed for this playstyle on account of their relatively weak healing capabilities.

Even though it is specifically designed for and balanced around various Sorcerer playstyles, the entirety of its item bonuses are also granted to Sorcerer players while they are in Werewolf form. Sorcerer Werewolves who choose the Pack Leader morph of Werewolf Transformation are able to take advantage of the extra health and armor granted to those with permanent pets because the accompanying direwolves are classified as such, while players that choose the Werewolf Berserker morph are granted the bonuses of +15% damage done and +15% healing done, even while in Werewolf form. This bonus is halved to 7% in PvP scenarios (via the Battle Spirit stipulation), but even then it is all too powerful of an item set bonus to be providing to Werewolf players. The Sorcerer-specific Beacon of Oblivion gives Werewolf PvP players a bonus of +7% damage done and +7% healing done, which is more potent than the specifically designed set for Werewolves, Savage Werewolf, which grants a dedicated Werewolf player a +6% damage done bonus and a bleed damage proc.

In addition to taking advantage of this Sorcerer-specific item set, my Werewolf build is also able to activate and take advantage of the following Sorcerer-specific class mastery skills:

Static Reverberation

and

Conservation of Energy

Blood Magic tooltip, for reference:

These mastery skills, which were designed and balanced specifically around Sorcerer playstyles, provide very strong bonuses to Sorcerer players that effectively keeps pure-class Sorcerer builds competitive with multi-classed alternatives. Though these mastery skills are undoubtedly very potent on Sorcerer players, they are specifically designed to fill in weaknesses present to the Sorcerer toolkit, and do not overwhelmingly break the game balance when used in this way. However, these mastery skills also have very general proc conditions that are not specific to Sorcerer playstyles which allows them to also be taken advantage of by Werewolf builds.

Because the Werewolf toolkit does not share the same weaknesses as the Sorcerer toolkit, which the Sorcerer-specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills were specifically designed to address, the interaction between Beacon of Oblivion, Static Reverberation, and Conservation of energy with Werewolf form creates some overwhelmingly powerful stat density that breaks game balance and is problematic for the health of ESO. The Non-Pet Sorcerer toolkit's major weakness is its access to strong healing skills, so it makes sense that Beacon of Oblivion and Conservation of Energy help even out this weakness. Werewolves, however, already have incredibly strong healing, including a very potent burst heal that is procced by their spammable damage and execute ability, Rip and Tear. The bonuses to healing and damage that these Sorcerer-specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills provide only further enhance what is already one of the greatest strengths of the Werewolf toolkit, which creates some pretty insane numbers.

If you dig around the build I shared earlier, you will notice that the tooltip for the spammable "Rip and Tear" offers almost 17k non-crit damage (halved in PvP) and 9.5k healing (also halved in PvP). Activating this skill, however, also procs Conservation of Energy, which heals me for an additional 4.5k health in addition to refunding me 600 stamina and 440 magicka. That means that the tooltip numbers for activating this one skill are 17k damage that scales as an execute ability, 600 stamina returned and 440 magicka returned, and also over 14k in healing that is further buffed by the passive Major Vitality that Werewolf players get and also the healing received bonuses for heavy armor. After taking into account all of the different healing modifiers within my build, this single button press heals me for 17.7k non-crit or 28.3k crit (both halved in PvP), in addition to giving me strong resource return and also dealing 17k of scaling execute damage to my opponent.

Hircine's Fortitude, my dedicated burst heal, has a tooltip value of 18k healing but also triggers the additional 4.5k healing from Conservation of Energy, which, after my healing modifiers are taken into account, ticks for 28.5k non-crit healing and 45.6k (!) crit healing (halved in PvP).

Those numbers are insane.

Though a lot of you who read this post may believe the problem to be these specific Item Sets or Class Mastery Skills, this is actually all just a symptom of a larger problem within the game's design: tools designed specifically to synergize with a particular playstyle, like Class Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills, are currently synergizing with builds and playstyles outside of that which they are specifically intended and designed for.

The Solution:

The solution to this problem is to completely eliminate unintended synergies between Class-Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills with alternative playstyles like Werewolf.

An example of this would be to make all Class-Specific Item Sets function ONLY while playing the respective pure-class form of that class. Or, if synergies between these item sets and multi-classed builds are intended, they should all at least ONLY provide benefits while in human form.

Similarly, all Class Mastery Skills should require interaction with their respective Class Toolkit to be taken advantage of. Ex/ "when activating a skill of the xxx skill line", or "provides yyy bonus to skills from the xxx skill line", etc.

This has proven itself to be a recurring problem, particularly and unfortunately within Werewolf builds, that have resulted in unwarranted and unnecessary nerfs to entire playstyles and specific item sets without addressing the root problem. The most recent example of this is the general and blanket sustain nerf to Werewolves that hit the weakest Werewolf builds the hardest (more on that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697306/werewolf-sustain-nerf-hits-the-weakest-ww-builds-hardest-and-doesnt-address-problem-areas#latest) without addressing the problematic Werewolf builds abusing the tools designed for Class-specific interaction, like Class Item Sets and Mastery Skills.

It is fine, and IMO a great addition to the game, to have resources that are specifically designed to prop up certain and specific playstyles, like pure-class play or Werewolf playstyles, but as long as these tools are allowed to synergize with alternative playstyles that do not share the same strengths and weaknesses of the intended one, problems will arise.

As long as the design philosophy does not completely prevent boons specifically designed and intended for certain playstyles from interacting with alternative playstyles, there will always exist the continuous need to meticulously micromanage and balance specific aspects of the game whenever a symptom of this larger problem arises. The problem today is Werewolf form interacting with Class-specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills, but tomorrow it could be something else entirely.

It is long past time that a higher level of intention and deliberateness be given to isolating certain elements from the game from others, but a good starting point to move forward would be to completely prevent Class-Specific Item Sets and Mastery Skills from synergizing with Werewolf form.

Have you nothing better to do than making new nerf werewolf post every other day?
Maybe look at aeries cry. Best class set in game

Panderbander · August 16

There are already other generic sets that give bigger bonuses to a werewolf than this class set.

Wuuffyy · August 16

I'd prefer we start with things like tuning masteries against werewolf first. I think class sets are generally okay and a great reward for the grind along with expression of my 'class' in a more healthy way.

Pyrebrand has greatly reduced effect, even with wildfire on a DK wolf. (for example)

Aerie's Cry is just an easier-to-control unfathomable darkness with a 'damage buff' amount (ergo unfathomable darkness but a more rewarding version) (as an example)

Whereas class masteries (in PvP) look like:

-infinite sustain just for existing (CoE); boost to max resource pool

-potent pseudo-execute (static reverb)

-10% increased damage for existing (necro)

-free scaling health and stam for existing (necro)

-10% increased damage and healing for existing for a little bit in a fight (DK mastery)

---

I understand why the class sets are there, and I think they are a more appropriate way to add 'class flavor' than masteries by a mile, personally. Also and more to the above point, why does my 'reworked class' (werewolf) who's sustain was intentionally tampered with (like DK) need a mastery that is meant to help a non-reworked class with sustain (sorc CoE), for PvP... we all see how and why that is problematic- right?

(and we also see how nerfing health and resource sustain while keeping that passive is a double-standard???)

acanca · August 16

you probably should have mentioned aeries cry or something

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Conservation of Energy imho should have:
"This effect does not work while under the effect of transformation" or "with sorcerer ability slotted on either bar" type of restriction. Alternatively it could have "this effect is reduced X% (something huge, like 80 at minimum) while battle spirit is active"

Problematic class mastery passives like this should have had limitations added day 1, no question about it. Just like with NB critical dmg class mastery passive, ZOS knew it might be OP in PvP, so they added a limitation BEFORE IT WENT LIVE (Just imagine how many "nerf threads" more would there be if they didn't). A lot of troubles could have been avoided.

In case of Conservation of Energy passive, I think the reason why they are not adding limitations is that there is no option that would remove synergy from PVP WW without affecting something else.

Personally, I think that the least restricting would be the need to have Sorc ability slotted for the passive to work. That way it won't work on a WW, but then again - it won't work on a WW in PvE too, so there is the problem.

Other options (like reducing the effectives of this passive when battle spirit is on) would also eliminate WW problem, but would affect all sorcs in PvP.

Making the effect not working while under the effect of transformation would also work, but it would affect Vamps & PvE too.

^ So, as you can see, there no ideal solution, but imho all of these solutions are definitely better that what ZOS is currently doing - reducing WW value sliders till no one plays it. The issue is that with current WW on PTS, no class will be able to play it EXCEPT for sorc - which is the opposite of the current problem. Right now, already sorc WW is the best and other classes can play it, but no as good (it is an entirely different league). After the update - sorc WW will be mostly unaffected while other classes will even struggle to stay in WW form solo on a pack leader due to skill costs.

^ So the "WW nerf threads" will still be popping-up here & there. So they will keep nerfing it, until even sorcs won't play it. Paradox is that WW is getting nerfed due to something outside of their toolkit. And it is all due to sorc class mastery passive being broken, but most sorc mains are too afraid to accept it.

There were mains of the class ready to die on the hill for the class mastery, doesnt matter how broken

VinnyGambini · August 16

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

Wuuffyy · August 16

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

At this point, I'd be okay with complete removal of masteries (if they feel the need to take a 'large swathe of power'). Right now, this is a nuclear nerf that isn't solving CoE-use at all (and ergo isn't actually addressing what they're trying to solve for)

Turtle_Bot · August 16

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Making the effect not working while under the effect of transformation would also work, but it would affect Vamps & PvE too.

Just as a heads up, making this specific change would make CoE unusable for any Sorc using Overload (so basically almost every magsorc in PvP), since overload is considered a "transformation" under the games code (same drawbacks as vamp ult, goliath form and (pre-refresh) WW form too) and this is probably why ZOS has struggled with separating the mastery from WW.

Best option would be to make having a Sorc ability slotted on the bar as a condition to proc it to address the WW issue, other changes to balance it would be to make it:
- not work with core combat (eliminates the free healing on roll/block/bash which is where it really buffs sustain to unreasonable levels since there's no need to cast vigor (which is 3k stam) every 4-5 seconds, or equivalent to 1200+ stam recovery)
- not work with health cost abilities (eliminates the niche blood for blood interaction where it heals more than B4B costs essentially making B4B into ele sus 2.0, i.e. a free to cast spammable)

There's a few other smaller issues, such as the flat 15% cost reduction all stam weapons get that mag weapons don't, that also contributes to why this mastery feels fine on mag builds but overtuned on stam builds, especially now that everyone is running Ice staff back bar so their stam builds get significantly more use out of their previously (pre-hybridization) unused mag pool that only used to be used sparingly for utility/buffs, but now can be used to essentially temporarily double their stam bar when it comes to core combat (or just be used for healing that scales off stam stats despite costing mag).

Turtle_Bot · August 16

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

ZOS already tried nerfing Reverb during U50 PTS, all that did was make it worse than the NB masteries.

ZOS also doesn't need to nuke CoE like you're calling for, some targeted adjustments (like I mentioned above) will fix it, but nuking it due to listening to biased blanket nerf calls like this will simply drive Sorcs into ONLY running the same specific broken build you keep complaining about because nuking this mastery instead of targeted fixes won't fix that build, it will just kill off every other build instead.

madmufffin · August 16

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

ZOS already tried nerfing Reverb during U50 PTS, all that did was make it worse than the NB masteries.

ZOS also doesn't need to nuke CoE like you're calling for, some targeted adjustments (like I mentioned above) will fix it, but nuking it due to listening to biased blanket nerf calls like this will simply drive Sorcs into ONLY running the same specific broken build you keep complaining about because nuking this mastery instead of targeted fixes won't fix that build, it will just kill off every other build instead.

Shitting on reverb would be so depressing. Sorc needs buffs to be usable in PVE, and it seems like as per usual nerfs are gonna spill over from PVP to hurt the class again...

Turtle_Bot · August 16

madmufffin wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

ZOS already tried nerfing Reverb during U50 PTS, all that did was make it worse than the NB masteries.

ZOS also doesn't need to nuke CoE like you're calling for, some targeted adjustments (like I mentioned above) will fix it, but nuking it due to listening to biased blanket nerf calls like this will simply drive Sorcs into ONLY running the same specific broken build you keep complaining about because nuking this mastery instead of targeted fixes won't fix that build, it will just kill off every other build instead.

Shitting on reverb would be so depressing. Sorc needs buffs to be usable in PVE, and it seems like as per usual nerfs are gonna spill over from PVP to hurt the class again...

yep and once again it will be for some specific interaction with a non-class aspect that causes it too (exactly what happened in U35 with savage werewolf set and original oakensoul mythic, where fixing those builds just required directly targeting those interactions (which were also directly addressed that same patch), but ZOS listened to the uninformed players cries and nuked sorc from orbit on top of making those targeted changes, then had to panic buff armaments and prey because they realized mid PTS they completely killed the class.

gammelscroll · August 17

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

Half static? Lol its does around 700-900 dps. Same as poisen)flame enchant. Lets nerf those also!!

VinnyGambini · August 17

gammelscroll wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

Half static? Lol its does around 700-900 dps. Same as poisen)flame enchant. Lets nerf those also!!

Well judgement brand is halved, nb crit mastery is even more nerfed in PvP. Yes I am 100% positive, that static reverb should be halved in pvp as well, to match other classes counterparts. And conservation of energy is broken since day 1 pts, everyone knows it, it has been said milion times.

twing1_ · August 17

gammelscroll wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Well the problem is definetely no werewolf itself.

The problem are specific class masteries - sorcerer class masteries.

You mentioned that your burst heal has 18k tooltip, you know what? Wield soul has 20,5k. So pure sorcerer (non WW) can heal 20,5k + 4,5k blood magic = 25k heal. Add healing modifiers, and you can see that sorc class mastery is broken.

The solution is quite simple:

1. Halve static reverbation dmg in PvP - just like many other class masteries.
2. Halve conservation of energy values in PvP - just like many other class masteries.

And you know what? This has been posted MILLION times.

Why ZOS ignores this?

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please adress this issue - currently EVERY SINGLE WW is sorcerer. We all know that the reason is those 2 broken class masteries. Just nerf them in PvP, and stop this madness.

Half static? Lol its does around 700-900 dps. Same as poisen)flame enchant. Lets nerf those also!!

This is so disingenuous. This is like saying "Dawnbreaker does as much damage as DK whip, so we should nerf Dawnbreaker."

Any reasonable person wouldn't support this because they know that Dawnbreaker is an ultimate ability and DK whip is a spammable with significantly less cost involved.

Similarly, there are key differences between static reverberation and weapon enchants that warrant separate treatment of these two mechanics.

Static Reverberation is a Class Mastery Skill that can only be utilized on Sorcerer characters (and for some reason Werewolf as well). Every class and playstyle has access to Weapon Enchantments, even Werewolf. Weapon Enchantments and Class Mastery Skills aren't even mutually exclusive, either: Class Mastery Skills can be utilized in tandem with Weapon Enchantments. In the case of Static Reverberation, this essentially means doubling the amount of damage provided by your Weapon Enchantments for free. On Sorcerer builds, which this Class Mastery Skill was specifically designed for, its already a very strong Mastery Skill. On Werewolf builds, which are already incredibly powerful, it provides another source of free damage to them that really isn't needed and becomes a large part of the reason why Sorcerer Werewolf builds are overperforming.

If Static Reverberation itself doesn't need a nerf, then it needs to be completely disabled from interacting with Werewolf form. If it were up to me, all Class Mastery Skills would fall under this design philosophy, so that they can be tailored specifically to the class they are designed for and separate game systems, like Werewolf form, can also be balanced independently from them.

If the dev team followed this approach from the beginning, perhaps they wouldn't have carried out the blanket sustain nerf to Werewolves from the previous week of PTS notes in the first place.

The current direction of giving out blanket nerfs to Werewolf form because of specific and problematic synergies between Werewolf form and class tools specifically designed and intended to interact with a particular Class playstyle, like Static Reverberation and other Class Masteries, wrongfully hurts Werewolf builds across the board and hits the weakest Werewolf builds the hardest while hardly touching the most problematic builds and failing to address the issue at hand.

The much better approach is to completely separate Werewolf form from Class Mastery Skills so that the two systems can be balanced independently from one another and Werewolf form can stop absorbing unnecessary nerfs in place of the problematic synergies it has with Class-specific systems like Infinite Archive Item Sets and Class Mastery Skills.