Molten Whip and Flame Lash are not the problem.

s3dulo · August 14

People see big damage from Molten Whip and Flame Lash in their damage recap and think that skill needs a nerf. It's not the problem. The problem are the ultimate's that completely ignore armor. People think they can put on 30k armor and they should now be tanky all the time. Those 20k+ molten whips/ flame lashes don't exist without Corrosive Armor. Instead of destroying a skill that doesn't do crazy damage 99.999% of the time it's used, they should be changing how Corrosive Armor works. Let it ignore DoT damage instead of direct damage. They should be fixing the fact that Onslaught critically strikes 100% of the time that it lands. Seriously, Onslaught always....and I mean always critically strikes if it lands. So you can put nothing into crit chance and everything into crit damage because you know you will absolutely always get a crit strike out of Onslaught and then probably a 25% or better chance to follow up with a critical whip. Is that suppose to be a feature or is that a bug?

If people were running around with Specbow while using Farstrider and Corrosive armor, you'd be seeing similar numbers and asking for similar nerfs. Molten Whip isn't the problem.

My point is, a lot of hard hitting skills can be abused if you provide a circumstance where armor is completely useless against the hardest hitting damage for 10 whole seconds.

We have a Corrosive Armor and an Onslaught problem, not a Molten Whip problem.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 14

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

s3dulo · August 14

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

No they aren't hitting 15k plus lashes outside of Corrosive unless they 1. Have huge pen from Onslaught 2. Have huge pen from Balorgh. You don't get those numbers without having a very narrow window where your pen is through the roof or you are ignoring armor altogether. I have been hit with thousands of whips and lashes in PVP. Anything over 10k is rare. That's 1% of the hits landed on me. Very big hits exist in PVP. People just don't understand why it happened and that it isn't easy to land those hits.

I do agree that Flame Lash shouldn't be an AOE skill but I don't see anything wrong with the damage. Again, address Corrosive ignoring armor for all direct damage for 10 seconds, and it would make an enormous difference. Instead were nerfing it for 99% of time when Molten lands outside those circumstances.

Wuuffyy · August 14

Not a problem:

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

I can vouch I currently average 15-19k visible crits on players with the following:

-5 pc order’s/Pyre (depending on build) front bar
-5 pc Rallying Cry backbar (defensive set)
-2 pc BloodSpawn (defensive set)
-1 pc Monomyth (Hybrid ‘defensive’ mythic)
-1 pc Trainee

Khajiit, Shadow, all gold gear and ‘the works’z

But yes, they are right- whip hits overtly hard as an insta-cast ability on live even without corrosive.

Never mind they have:

-Core of Flame (you are running anyway for sustain)
-Flames of Oblivion (you are running anyway for crit buff)
-‘Shattering Rocks’/2H scribable with delayed fear+mangle (you were likely running anyway for stun)

…which all do damage of course in and around the same time anyway if used right.

NxJoeyD · August 14

s3dulo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

No they aren't hitting 15k plus lashes outside of Corrosive unless they 1. Have huge pen from Onslaught 2. Have huge pen from Balorgh. You don't get those numbers without having a very narrow window where your pen is through the roof or you are ignoring armor altogether. I have been hit with thousands of whips and lashes in PVP. Anything over 10k is rare. That's 1% of the hits landed on me. Very big hits exist in PVP. People just don't understand why it happened and that it isn't easy to land those hits.

I do agree that Flame Lash shouldn't be an AOE skill but I don't see anything wrong with the damage. Again, address Corrosive ignoring armor for all direct damage for 10 seconds, and it would make an enormous difference. Instead were nerfing it for 99% of time when Molten lands outside those circumstances.

I have to agree here and my observations are similar to yours. There's definitely a clear difference when whip is cast with or without the bonus of either a Corrosive or Onslaught.

I think there are a number of people in PvP (just in general, not aimed at anyone) who don't really value Pen as much for how much impact it can have in PvP combat. A proper mix of pen and scaling can rival crit in some cases; albeit it can be tricker to pull off.

Here's where the difficulty is, IMO. Let's say we can trace some of the higher end tuning on DK to skills like Corrosive and Onslaught, if one is to look at a high tier subclassing build with stratospheric self healing potential or immense near-perma-block potential, where is the effective counter? Or, How many 1vX is really intended to address those scenarios? I think the jury is out on that and nobody really has a true answer.

IMO I think the Devs tried to answer that question with the DK refresh. One of the key pain points after subclassing dialed up the crit meta was breaking through durability and/or healing with strong enough burst.

Maybe the answer here might be that skills like Onslaught or Corrosive scale their amount of resistance bypass based on the targets max resistances? That might help direct more of the power from these skills in the direction of the builds they were intended to match. As for healing, they added the stacks-nerf but, IMO, they set the stack threshold too high so adjusting that base amount downward might help dial that in so that Corrosive or Onslaught don't need to globally strip everyone bare.

I wouldn't want to necessarily nerf DK for the sake of ending up with Subclassed builds back as king-of-the-hill as a rule. There are still quite a lot of subclassed builds in PvP that are effective, despite Masteries being available.

Wuuffyy · August 14

NxJoeyD wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

No they aren't hitting 15k plus lashes outside of Corrosive unless they 1. Have huge pen from Onslaught 2. Have huge pen from Balorgh. You don't get those numbers without having a very narrow window where your pen is through the roof or you are ignoring armor altogether. I have been hit with thousands of whips and lashes in PVP. Anything over 10k is rare. That's 1% of the hits landed on me. Very big hits exist in PVP. People just don't understand why it happened and that it isn't easy to land those hits.

I do agree that Flame Lash shouldn't be an AOE skill but I don't see anything wrong with the damage. Again, address Corrosive ignoring armor for all direct damage for 10 seconds, and it would make an enormous difference. Instead were nerfing it for 99% of time when Molten lands outside those circumstances.

I have to agree here and my observations are similar to yours. There's definitely a clear difference when whip is cast with or without the bonus of either a Corrosive or Onslaught.

I think there are a number of people in PvP (just in general, not aimed at anyone) who don't really value Pen as much for how much impact it can have in PvP combat. A proper mix of pen and scaling can rival crit in some cases; albeit it can be tricker to pull off.

Here's where the difficulty is, IMO. Let's say we can trace some of the higher end tuning on DK to skills like Corrosive and Onslaught, if one is to look at a high tier subclassing build with stratospheric self healing potential or immense near-perma-block potential, where is the effective counter?

IMO I think the Devs tried to answer that question with the DK refresh. One of the key pain points after subclassing dialed up the crit meta was breaking through durability and/or healing with strong enough burst.

Maybe the answer here might be that skills like Onslaught or Corrosive scale their amount of resistance bypass based on the targets max resistances? That might help direct more of the power from these skills in the direction of the builds they were intended to match. As for healing, they added the stacks-nerf but, IMO, they set the stack threshold too high so adjusting that base amount downward might help dial that in so that Corrosive or Onslaught don't need to globally strip everyone bare.

75% of the old whip value which was critting 15-19k as an insta-cast potentially into a delayed stun is not being ‘stripped bare’.

This let alone Onslaught/Corro still exist (as you mentioned) and simply serves to turn my 2-defensive-set-DK’s onslaught/corro whip into a 20k whip from 27k (again, roughly a 25% reduction in cap damage) or the ‘IC video whip’ from 41k to ~30k… which is more than appropriate if it’s allowed to be combo’s with the mentioned stuns and/or doesn’t have a ‘travel time’ like Merciless Resolve was given a long time ago.

Since we are on the same server, I am happy to demonstrate this to you as needed.

NxJoeyD · August 14

Wuuffyy wrote: »

NxJoeyD wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

No they aren't hitting 15k plus lashes outside of Corrosive unless they 1. Have huge pen from Onslaught 2. Have huge pen from Balorgh. You don't get those numbers without having a very narrow window where your pen is through the roof or you are ignoring armor altogether. I have been hit with thousands of whips and lashes in PVP. Anything over 10k is rare. That's 1% of the hits landed on me. Very big hits exist in PVP. People just don't understand why it happened and that it isn't easy to land those hits.

I do agree that Flame Lash shouldn't be an AOE skill but I don't see anything wrong with the damage. Again, address Corrosive ignoring armor for all direct damage for 10 seconds, and it would make an enormous difference. Instead were nerfing it for 99% of time when Molten lands outside those circumstances.

I have to agree here and my observations are similar to yours. There's definitely a clear difference when whip is cast with or without the bonus of either a Corrosive or Onslaught.

I think there are a number of people in PvP (just in general, not aimed at anyone) who don't really value Pen as much for how much impact it can have in PvP combat. A proper mix of pen and scaling can rival crit in some cases; albeit it can be tricker to pull off.

Here's where the difficulty is, IMO. Let's say we can trace some of the higher end tuning on DK to skills like Corrosive and Onslaught, if one is to look at a high tier subclassing build with stratospheric self healing potential or immense near-perma-block potential, where is the effective counter?

IMO I think the Devs tried to answer that question with the DK refresh. One of the key pain points after subclassing dialed up the crit meta was breaking through durability and/or healing with strong enough burst.

Maybe the answer here might be that skills like Onslaught or Corrosive scale their amount of resistance bypass based on the targets max resistances? That might help direct more of the power from these skills in the direction of the builds they were intended to match. As for healing, they added the stacks-nerf but, IMO, they set the stack threshold too high so adjusting that base amount downward might help dial that in so that Corrosive or Onslaught don't need to globally strip everyone bare.

75% of the old whip value which was critting 15-19k as an insta-cast potentially into a delayed stun is not being ‘stripped bare’.

This let alone Onslaught/Corro still exist (as you mentioned) and simply serves to turn my 2-defensive-set-DK’s onslaught/corro whip into a 20k whip from 27k (again, roughly a 25% reduction in cap damage) or the ‘IC video whip’ from 41k to ~30k… which is more than appropriate if it’s allowed to be combo’s with the mentioned stuns and/or doesn’t have a ‘travel time’ like Merciless Resolve was given a long time ago.

Since we are on the same server, I am happy to demonstrate this to you as needed.

"stripped bare" wasn't referring to any damage dealt, it's referring to the aspect of Corro or Onsl negating targets resistances in full (i.e. stripping them bare, metaphorically).

I don't think the damage is an issue and I'd be reluctant to adjust Corro or Onsl on a major scale because the game would lose one of the critical ways to address subclass durability scaling. DK's being able to hit like they do was needed. The caveat is that everyone else is getting hit as hard, despite not being a subclassed meta; but that's par for the course until refreshes are done.

As for Corro & Onslaught, having those skills feature a target scale might be good, then again, it might be bad; it's a theory craft.

s3dulo · August 14

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Not a problem:

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

I can vouch I currently average 15-19k visible crits on players with the following:

-5 pc order’s/Pyre (depending on build) front bar
-5 pc Rallying Cry backbar (defensive set)
-2 pc BloodSpawn (defensive set)
-1 pc Monomyth (Hybrid ‘defensive’ mythic)
-1 pc Trainee

Khajiit, Shadow, all gold gear and ‘the works’z

But yes, they are right- whip hits overtly hard as an insta-cast ability on live even without corrosive.

Never mind they have:

-Core of Flame (you are running anyway for sustain)
-Flames of Oblivion (you are running anyway for crit buff)
-‘Shattering Rocks’/2H scribable with delayed fear+mangle (you were likely running anyway for stun)

…which all do damage of course in and around the same time anyway if used right.

You currently "average" 15k-19k whips? Based on what? Just what you observe and remember? Unfortunately, I don't think that's the best metric. I bet if you looked at your average 3 stack molten whip damage landed, it's no where near 15k-19k. Because you aren't critting 100% of the time. Average is what's important here. Just because you can land 15-19k crit whips, which would stand out to you so you'd have a bias in your memory, doesn't mean your average attempts are anywhere near that. Peak damage can be high in many different circumstances. But a single full stack molten whip on a build heavily built into crit damage, landed against targets that might not even know what crit resistance even is, shouldn't force a 50% nerf to that skill and every other build that doesn't do those numbers.

I've seen a lot of NB builds in the past heavily invested in crit damage also hit 15k-19k specbows when they land.

The outliers shouldn't be the cause of a nerf.

Panderbander · August 14

I am on an outdated build not built for maximizing ballerina damage on my DK and I land Power Lash numbers in the 15k range WITHOUT CORROSIVE on the regular.

Get out of here with that false info.

acanca · August 14

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

XVestigeXx · August 14

Nerf DK = good
Buff NB class masteries = Good
Balance all classes to be good like sorc = Great

Radom stealth changes = bad

XVestigeXx · August 14

s3dulo wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Not a problem:

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

I can vouch I currently average 15-19k visible crits on players with the following:

-5 pc order’s/Pyre (depending on build) front bar
-5 pc Rallying Cry backbar (defensive set)
-2 pc BloodSpawn (defensive set)
-1 pc Monomyth (Hybrid ‘defensive’ mythic)
-1 pc Trainee

Khajiit, Shadow, all gold gear and ‘the works’z

But yes, they are right- whip hits overtly hard as an insta-cast ability on live even without corrosive.

Never mind they have:

-Core of Flame (you are running anyway for sustain)
-Flames of Oblivion (you are running anyway for crit buff)
-‘Shattering Rocks’/2H scribable with delayed fear+mangle (you were likely running anyway for stun)

…which all do damage of course in and around the same time anyway if used right.

You currently "average" 15k-19k whips? Based on what? Just what you observe and remember? Unfortunately, I don't think that's the best metric. I bet if you looked at your average 3 stack molten whip damage landed, it's no where near 15k-19k. Because you aren't critting 100% of the time. Average is what's important here. Just because you can land 15-19k crit whips, which would stand out to you so you'd have a bias in your memory, doesn't mean your average attempts are anywhere near that. Peak damage can be high in many different circumstances. But a single full stack molten whip on a build heavily built into crit damage, landed against targets that might not even know what crit resistance even is, shouldn't force a 50% nerf to that skill and every other build that doesn't do those numbers.

I've seen a lot of NB builds in the past heavily invested in crit damage also hit 15k-19k specbows when they land.

The outliers shouldn't be the cause of a nerf.

you're seriously arguing that DK whips are not OP in pvp? Comparing them to spec bow of all things??? LOL Well NB doesn't have 17 delayed burst abilities that are all AOE and a unblockable stun that can land all at the same time with 100% pen LOL DK is head and shoulders above everyone else and this toning down in pvp needed to happen a long time ago with class refreshes coming one a year.

NERF DK, BALANCE ALL CLASSES TO BE GOOD AS SORC

s3dulo · August 14

XVestigeXx wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Not a problem:

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

While corrosive IS an issue in PVP, there is a reason no one is subclassing and using Corrosive/Spec Bow. Flame Lash is an AOE with 5 stacks of consistent damage on average at tool tip of 15k plus. Factoring crit damage multipliers in, people are still hitting for nearly 15k lashes outside of Corrosive.
The damage on whip definitely is overtuned.

I can vouch I currently average 15-19k visible crits on players with the following:

-5 pc order’s/Pyre (depending on build) front bar
-5 pc Rallying Cry backbar (defensive set)
-2 pc BloodSpawn (defensive set)
-1 pc Monomyth (Hybrid ‘defensive’ mythic)
-1 pc Trainee

Khajiit, Shadow, all gold gear and ‘the works’z

But yes, they are right- whip hits overtly hard as an insta-cast ability on live even without corrosive.

Never mind they have:

-Core of Flame (you are running anyway for sustain)
-Flames of Oblivion (you are running anyway for crit buff)
-‘Shattering Rocks’/2H scribable with delayed fear+mangle (you were likely running anyway for stun)

…which all do damage of course in and around the same time anyway if used right.

You currently "average" 15k-19k whips? Based on what? Just what you observe and remember? Unfortunately, I don't think that's the best metric. I bet if you looked at your average 3 stack molten whip damage landed, it's no where near 15k-19k. Because you aren't critting 100% of the time. Average is what's important here. Just because you can land 15-19k crit whips, which would stand out to you so you'd have a bias in your memory, doesn't mean your average attempts are anywhere near that. Peak damage can be high in many different circumstances. But a single full stack molten whip on a build heavily built into crit damage, landed against targets that might not even know what crit resistance even is, shouldn't force a 50% nerf to that skill and every other build that doesn't do those numbers.

I've seen a lot of NB builds in the past heavily invested in crit damage also hit 15k-19k specbows when they land.

The outliers shouldn't be the cause of a nerf.

you're seriously arguing that DK whips are not OP in pvp? Comparing them to spec bow of all things??? LOL Well NB doesn't have 17 delayed burst abilities that are all AOE and a unblockable stun that can land all at the same time with 100% pen LOL DK is head and shoulders above everyone else and this toning down in pvp needed to happen a long time ago with class refreshes coming one a year.

NERF DK, BALANCE ALL CLASSES TO BE GOOD AS SORC

I'm not saying Dk doesn't need adjustment. I'm saying well-timed outlier whip damage isn't the problem. Yes, flame lash as an AOE is cracked. I'd like that to see that adjusted to single target. Yes, specbow does similar damage to molten whip and is ranged, and can be fired twice. I think that's great. Give NB more delayed burst, I love it. Sounds awesome. Give NB more defensive ability, sustain that would be cool. I'm good with classes getting juiced to better compete with DK. That sounds like a lot of fun. Nerfing DK, is lame though. Nerfing whip doesn't do anything to help where these other classes are lacking. Nerfing whip would actually make my playstyle more competitive but I still think it's a lame way to address the real issue. Classes need to be buffed to DKs level. Even if it's a band-aid until the full refresh.

s3dulo · August 14

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

NovelliESO · August 14

The actual problem is the skill line itself that has 3 extremely strong skills and ends up being a need for all PvP classes in cyro unless you are a pure healer, and honestly this line is still good on a healer. CoF, Inferno, Whip, and even heartfire all all extremely strong.

While I believe that magnifies the problem, whip itself is also still a problem. It hits harder than every direct damage ult in the game and that shouldn't happen on a burst skill you can stack while casting other skills that are necessary to your rotation anyway.

acanca · August 14

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

Yes but hitting 15k whips is still pretty reasonable even vs people with good set ups and with how spammy whip is thats still an incredibly good tool. And lets be reasonable here, we are comparing whip to bow proc while ignoring the fact that incap into bow proc is basically all that an nb has access to for damage while a dk has access to amazing tools like incinerate and heart of flame, for additional delayed burst, has access to free damage comparable to a burst with pyrebrand and wildfire embers and has access to probably the best cc for landing a burst combo?

Are we really making that comparison? Its imo fair to expect bow proc to do more damage than whip considering all the extra damage a dk has.

Honestly the more you try to argue for dk the more you convince me that whip was unfair and i started out more on your side that core of flame was the problem rather than whip. Still we'll all take a look at the numbers when we hace access to pts and see how much dk is actually affected by the changes. Honestly, i think you know as much as i that the changes were long overdue.

Udrath · August 14

I hope they get rid of the 50% damage reduction from projectiles too. They can sustain blocking good enough

s3dulo · August 14

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

Yes but hitting 15k whips is still pretty reasonable even vs people with good set ups and with how spammy whip is thats still an incredibly good tool. And lets be reasonable here, we are comparing whip to bow proc while ignoring the fact that incap into bow proc is basically all that an nb has access to for damage while a dk has access to amazing tools like incinerate and heart of flame, for additional delayed burst, has access to free damage comparable to a burst with pyrebrand and wildfire embers and has access to probably the best cc for landing a burst combo?

Are we really making that comparison? Its imo fair to expect bow proc to do more damage than whip considering all the extra damage a dk has.

Honestly the more you try to argue for dk the more you convince me that whip was unfair and i started out more on your side that core of flame was the problem rather than whip. Still we'll all take a look at the numbers when we hace access to pts and see how much dk is actually affected by the changes. Honestly, i think you know as much as i that the changes were long overdue.

15k whips are reasonable when? On who? There loads of players running around I can kill with dragon's breath and light attacks. Yea I bet you can land 15k whips on them as often as you want because they don't know how to make a build. Again, huge damage on squish targets shouldn't warrant a nerf.

We are JUST comparing whip and bow proc. Yes the DK has way more to their toolkit but that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about a wildly heavy-handed nerf to whip. My argument is in favor of giving more to NB. I would absolutely love it if they gave NB a passive or adjust a skill so they didn't need to dedicate hardly anything else to sustain like DK and Sorc are currently enjoying. I would also love it if NB got their own additional delayed burst. That would be great. Nerfing whip does absolutely nothing for NB. It doesn't suddenly make NB better for PVP. There are such tiny changes that ZOS could make to the classes to make them so much more competitive to DK. That's why it drives me nuts they are going for a nerf instead. Just hand out buffs to every other class like candy on Halloween.

Really? You "honestly" think I know as much as you that the changes are long overdue? Well, allow me to vehemently disagree with you on that point and make it very clear that I don't believe that at all. The DK refresh was long overdue and since ZOS is in a bind on refreshing the rest in a timely manner, just buff the other classes like I've been saying. The majority of class passives are pretty garbage. Especially NBs. They need to be juiced, make them competitive now instead of nerfing DK skills.

NovelliESO · August 14

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

Yes but hitting 15k whips is still pretty reasonable even vs people with good set ups and with how spammy whip is thats still an incredibly good tool. And lets be reasonable here, we are comparing whip to bow proc while ignoring the fact that incap into bow proc is basically all that an nb has access to for damage while a dk has access to amazing tools like incinerate and heart of flame, for additional delayed burst, has access to free damage comparable to a burst with pyrebrand and wildfire embers and has access to probably the best cc for landing a burst combo?

Are we really making that comparison? Its imo fair to expect bow proc to do more damage than whip considering all the extra damage a dk has.

Honestly the more you try to argue for dk the more you convince me that whip was unfair and i started out more on your side that core of flame was the problem rather than whip. Still we'll all take a look at the numbers when we hace access to pts and see how much dk is actually affected by the changes. Honestly, i think you know as much as i that the changes were long overdue.

15k whips are reasonable when? On who? There loads of players running around I can kill with dragon's breath and light attacks. Yea I bet you can land 15k whips on them as often as you want because they don't know how to make a build. Again, huge damage on squish targets shouldn't warrant a nerf.

We are JUST comparing whip and bow proc. Yes the DK has way more to their toolkit but that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about a wildly heavy-handed nerf to whip. My argument is in favor of giving more to NB. I would absolutely love it if they gave NB a passive or adjust a skill so they didn't need to dedicate hardly anything else to sustain like DK and Sorc are currently enjoying. I would also love it if NB got their own additional delayed burst. That would be great. Nerfing whip does absolutely nothing for NB. It doesn't suddenly make NB better for PVP. There are such tiny changes that ZOS could make to the classes to make them so much more competitive to DK. That's why it drives me nuts they are going for a nerf instead. Just hand out buffs to every other class like candy on Halloween.

Really? You "honestly" think I know as much as you that the changes are long overdue? Well, allow me to vehemently disagree with you on that point and make it very clear that I don't believe that at all. The DK refresh was long overdue and since ZOS is in a bind on refreshing the rest in a timely manner, just buff the other classes like I've been saying. The majority of class passives are pretty garbage. Especially NBs. They need to be juiced, make them competitive now instead of nerfing DK skills.

The issue with this is you can very easily hit 15k whips on people who aren't squishy as well, and people from your side seem to never engage in good faith with that reality. You don't need corrosive or anything either, you can be in a good build and still get hit harder than 15k, and often, if you aren't hitting people with whips that hard, maybe your own build is the problem.

To act as if buffing NB when it has bow may not create problems is silly. As I mentioned before, the issue with DK, along with the fact that whip hits for more than direct damage ults, is that DK's skill line of ardent flame is OP, and having a skill hit that hard, in a line that good, leads to an unhealthy balance. If you did the same to NB it would also be unhealthy. The people on the forums have some issue with nerfs and always propose "just buff everything else" as if that is a logical solution when that is way more time consuming and just silly. Sometimes things overperform and need to be nerfed, that is the reality of balance.

Luneca · August 14

Udrath wrote: »

I hope they get rid of the 50% damage reduction from projectiles too. They can sustain blocking good enough

And if not, it needs to only be on the other morph that doesn't have a CC on it to split the power. Oh, but that would anger a lot of PvP DKs that currently have a one button escape better than streak/BoL/cloak, though they keep pretending it's not.

The skill in the past as "Dragonfire Scale" was already too powerful, I have no clue why they buffed it to this extent. And no one can convince me that it was for PvE.

Radiate77 · August 15

I’m casually getting blasted for 12k+ non-crit Molten Whips on a 34k resist Templar, with only Major Breach applied to me.

This nerf to Whip might not be enough, that said, multiple things can be a problem and Corrosive is a huge one.

madmufffin · August 15

Luneca wrote: »

Udrath wrote: »

I hope they get rid of the 50% damage reduction from projectiles too. They can sustain blocking good enough

And if not, it needs to only be on the other morph that doesn't have a CC on it to split the power. Oh, but that would anger a lot of PvP DKs that currently have a one button escape better than streak/BoL/cloak, though they keep pretending it's not.

The skill in the past as "Dragonfire Scale" was already too powerful, I have no clue why they buffed it to this extent. And no one can convince me that it was for PvE.

The only place wings has ever been used in PVE is Cloudrest. This was just a grotesque overcooked skill for PVP.

Firstmep · August 15

Whip was/is a problem. On live it does more damage stacked then nbs spectral bow, and that's on a very squishy class.
I don't mind dk being a tanky bruiser with high damage, but imo it should be more dot oriented not a walking glass cannon level burst damage tank with infinite sustain.

VinnyGambini · August 15

Guys, why argue, just do the maths:

Before:

Whip base tooltip = 2400
Bonus = 2400 * 1,6 = 3840
World in ruin = 3840 *1,05 = 4032

Minor brutality and major breach remains unchanged, so I won't add it to calculation.

After:

Whip base tooltip = 2400
Bonus (PvP) = 2400 * 1,5 = 3600
Traumatic burns = 3600 * 1,05 = 3780
Landslide = 3780 * 1,2 = 4536
Minor breach = 1,05 (aprrox) * 4536 = 4762

On top of that there is also 10% dmg buff from take flight and 10% crit dmg buff from passive.

4762 / 4032 = 18% damage INCREASE. Considering bonus from take flight and crit it will be +- 30%.

From my perspective, whip dmg is still much bigger than before "rework" (in fact it was not a rework, rather hardcore buff).

aLi3nZ · August 15

They reduced damage on Molton whip max stacks 50% and reduced healing on flame lash / power lashes 50% right? That’s it. That’s fine. It’s still going to be excellent.

Nerf wings a bit please and let’s see how this goes.

Bushido2513 · August 15

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

Yes but hitting 15k whips is still pretty reasonable even vs people with good set ups and with how spammy whip is thats still an incredibly good tool. And lets be reasonable here, we are comparing whip to bow proc while ignoring the fact that incap into bow proc is basically all that an nb has access to for damage while a dk has access to amazing tools like incinerate and heart of flame, for additional delayed burst, has access to free damage comparable to a burst with pyrebrand and wildfire embers and has access to probably the best cc for landing a burst combo?

Are we really making that comparison? Its imo fair to expect bow proc to do more damage than whip considering all the extra damage a dk has.

Honestly the more you try to argue for dk the more you convince me that whip was unfair and i started out more on your side that core of flame was the problem rather than whip. Still we'll all take a look at the numbers when we hace access to pts and see how much dk is actually affected by the changes. Honestly, i think you know as much as i that the changes were long overdue.

15k whips are reasonable when? On who? There loads of players running around I can kill with dragon's breath and light attacks. Yea I bet you can land 15k whips on them as often as you want because they don't know how to make a build. Again, huge damage on squish targets shouldn't warrant a nerf.

We are JUST comparing whip and bow proc. Yes the DK has way more to their toolkit but that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about a wildly heavy-handed nerf to whip. My argument is in favor of giving more to NB. I would absolutely love it if they gave NB a passive or adjust a skill so they didn't need to dedicate hardly anything else to sustain like DK and Sorc are currently enjoying. I would also love it if NB got their own additional delayed burst. That would be great. Nerfing whip does absolutely nothing for NB. It doesn't suddenly make NB better for PVP. There are such tiny changes that ZOS could make to the classes to make them so much more competitive to DK. That's why it drives me nuts they are going for a nerf instead. Just hand out buffs to every other class like candy on Halloween.

Really? You "honestly" think I know as much as you that the changes are long overdue? Well, allow me to vehemently disagree with you on that point and make it very clear that I don't believe that at all. The DK refresh was long overdue and since ZOS is in a bind on refreshing the rest in a timely manner, just buff the other classes like I've been saying. The majority of class passives are pretty garbage. Especially NBs. They need to be juiced, make them competitive now instead of nerfing DK skills.

I see this argument often and you're not wrong. I'm speaking of the more buffs less nerfs argument. Most people agree actually. Who doesn't want the playing field leveled with added power, sounds great.

Reason we don't get that all at once is because that takes time and work and resources. With layoffs and such, we're going to have to be happy with the bandaid.

It's either, do all the math to change multiple systems that interact and sort through testing and revisions or just nerf whip and move forward for now.

Your argument is valid and I hope people keep asking for classes to be brought up. It's just very unlikely to happen the way it really needs to in the current situation.

For now I'll settle for this particular bandaid because it's for me among my biggest pain points in pvp.

The class rework schedule was always going to cheese some people off but now with it coming to a crawl we have to pull back a bit on those steps that were done when the company and the roadmap was different.

NovelliESO · August 15

acanca wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

Yes but hitting 15k whips is still pretty reasonable even vs people with good set ups and with how spammy whip is thats still an incredibly good tool. And lets be reasonable here, we are comparing whip to bow proc while ignoring the fact that incap into bow proc is basically all that an nb has access to for damage while a dk has access to amazing tools like incinerate and heart of flame, for additional delayed burst, has access to free damage comparable to a burst with pyrebrand and wildfire embers and has access to probably the best cc for landing a burst combo?

Are we really making that comparison? Its imo fair to expect bow proc to do more damage than whip considering all the extra damage a dk has.

Honestly the more you try to argue for dk the more you convince me that whip was unfair and i started out more on your side that core of flame was the problem rather than whip. Still we'll all take a look at the numbers when we hace access to pts and see how much dk is actually affected by the changes. Honestly, i think you know as much as i that the changes were long overdue.

15k whips are reasonable when? On who? There loads of players running around I can kill with dragon's breath and light attacks. Yea I bet you can land 15k whips on them as often as you want because they don't know how to make a build. Again, huge damage on squish targets shouldn't warrant a nerf.

We are JUST comparing whip and bow proc. Yes the DK has way more to their toolkit but that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about a wildly heavy-handed nerf to whip. My argument is in favor of giving more to NB. I would absolutely love it if they gave NB a passive or adjust a skill so they didn't need to dedicate hardly anything else to sustain like DK and Sorc are currently enjoying. I would also love it if NB got their own additional delayed burst. That would be great. Nerfing whip does absolutely nothing for NB. It doesn't suddenly make NB better for PVP. There are such tiny changes that ZOS could make to the classes to make them so much more competitive to DK. That's why it drives me nuts they are going for a nerf instead. Just hand out buffs to every other class like candy on Halloween.

Really? You "honestly" think I know as much as you that the changes are long overdue? Well, allow me to vehemently disagree with you on that point and make it very clear that I don't believe that at all. The DK refresh was long overdue and since ZOS is in a bind on refreshing the rest in a timely manner, just buff the other classes like I've been saying. The majority of class passives are pretty garbage. Especially NBs. They need to be juiced, make them competitive now instead of nerfing DK skills.

The issue with this is you can very easily hit 15k whips on people who aren't squishy as well, and people from your side seem to never engage in good faith with that reality. You don't need corrosive or anything either, you can be in a good build and still get hit harder than 15k, and often, if you aren't hitting people with whips that hard, maybe your own build is the problem.

To act as if buffing NB when it has bow may not create problems is silly. As I mentioned before, the issue with DK, along with the fact that whip hits for more than direct damage ults, is that DK's skill line of ardent flame is OP, and having a skill hit that hard, in a line that good, leads to an unhealthy balance. If you did the same to NB it would also be unhealthy. The people on the forums have some issue with nerfs and always propose "just buff everything else" as if that is a logical solution when that is way more time consuming and just silly. Sometimes things overperform and need to be nerfed, that is the reality of balance.

Really? You thought at least the core of flame wasnt unhealthy for the game? I would for sure love other classes to be buffed too but you know as well as i do that dk has been strangling the meta for far too long.

I suggested other classes sustain to be brought up to the same level as dk and sorc, i suggested this when they were testing class masteries, i suggested this before this pts cycle itself.

I think at this point you know as well as i do that the healthiest thing that can happen for the meta is for dk's most oppressive tools to be reeled in because its clear the rest of the classes arent getting them.

What are you even asking, did you even read what I wrote? How do you gather that I think CoF is fine?

acanca · August 15

NovelliESO wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

s3dulo wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

I mean i hit 19k whips and im not running onslaught so i disagree that whip was only good with corrosive or onslaught.

But yes the main problem with dk is definitely the sustain on core of flame and while the toning down is a good direction, it needs to be toned down just a tad more probably.

Thats just speculation tho, will have to check both the whip numbers and compare it to other stuff like bow proc and also figure out whether or not its still possible to easily perma block when the new pts patch comes out.

I definitely disagree that corrosive or onslaught were the problem though. They were not

Nobody said you don't hit 19k whips ever. But you sure don't hit them on average and there are a lot of targets you will never land a 19k whip on because they aren't built out of paper-mache like most of these squishy casual players doing all the complaining. That's my point. Just because damage is possible at it's peak under certain circumstances doesn't mean it's OP. You definitely aren't landing 19K whips on me and once whip is nerfed to half the damage, it won't even matter if I mistime my block and get hit full force. On a skilled player, a 3 stack whip will soon be hitting like a dry fart.

Yes but hitting 15k whips is still pretty reasonable even vs people with good set ups and with how spammy whip is thats still an incredibly good tool. And lets be reasonable here, we are comparing whip to bow proc while ignoring the fact that incap into bow proc is basically all that an nb has access to for damage while a dk has access to amazing tools like incinerate and heart of flame, for additional delayed burst, has access to free damage comparable to a burst with pyrebrand and wildfire embers and has access to probably the best cc for landing a burst combo?

Are we really making that comparison? Its imo fair to expect bow proc to do more damage than whip considering all the extra damage a dk has.

Honestly the more you try to argue for dk the more you convince me that whip was unfair and i started out more on your side that core of flame was the problem rather than whip. Still we'll all take a look at the numbers when we hace access to pts and see how much dk is actually affected by the changes. Honestly, i think you know as much as i that the changes were long overdue.

15k whips are reasonable when? On who? There loads of players running around I can kill with dragon's breath and light attacks. Yea I bet you can land 15k whips on them as often as you want because they don't know how to make a build. Again, huge damage on squish targets shouldn't warrant a nerf.

We are JUST comparing whip and bow proc. Yes the DK has way more to their toolkit but that's not what this discussion is about. This discussion is about a wildly heavy-handed nerf to whip. My argument is in favor of giving more to NB. I would absolutely love it if they gave NB a passive or adjust a skill so they didn't need to dedicate hardly anything else to sustain like DK and Sorc are currently enjoying. I would also love it if NB got their own additional delayed burst. That would be great. Nerfing whip does absolutely nothing for NB. It doesn't suddenly make NB better for PVP. There are such tiny changes that ZOS could make to the classes to make them so much more competitive to DK. That's why it drives me nuts they are going for a nerf instead. Just hand out buffs to every other class like candy on Halloween.

Really? You "honestly" think I know as much as you that the changes are long overdue? Well, allow me to vehemently disagree with you on that point and make it very clear that I don't believe that at all. The DK refresh was long overdue and since ZOS is in a bind on refreshing the rest in a timely manner, just buff the other classes like I've been saying. The majority of class passives are pretty garbage. Especially NBs. They need to be juiced, make them competitive now instead of nerfing DK skills.

The issue with this is you can very easily hit 15k whips on people who aren't squishy as well, and people from your side seem to never engage in good faith with that reality. You don't need corrosive or anything either, you can be in a good build and still get hit harder than 15k, and often, if you aren't hitting people with whips that hard, maybe your own build is the problem.

To act as if buffing NB when it has bow may not create problems is silly. As I mentioned before, the issue with DK, along with the fact that whip hits for more than direct damage ults, is that DK's skill line of ardent flame is OP, and having a skill hit that hard, in a line that good, leads to an unhealthy balance. If you did the same to NB it would also be unhealthy. The people on the forums have some issue with nerfs and always propose "just buff everything else" as if that is a logical solution when that is way more time consuming and just silly. Sometimes things overperform and need to be nerfed, that is the reality of balance.

Really? You thought at least the core of flame wasnt unhealthy for the game? I would for sure love other classes to be buffed too but you know as well as i do that dk has been strangling the meta for far too long.

I suggested other classes sustain to be brought up to the same level as dk and sorc, i suggested this when they were testing class masteries, i suggested this before this pts cycle itself.

I think at this point you know as well as i do that the healthiest thing that can happen for the meta is for dk's most oppressive tools to be reeled in because its clear the rest of the classes arent getting them.

What are you even asking, did you even read what I wrote? How do you gather that I think CoF is fine?

I have no clue how i quoted you, wrong person sorry.

acanca · August 15

@sedulo

Really? You thought at least the core of flame wasnt unhealthy for the game? I would for sure love other classes to be buffed too but you know as well as i do that dk has been strangling the meta for far too long.

I suggested other classes sustain to be brought up to the same level as dk and sorc, i suggested this when they were testing class masteries, i suggested this before this pts cycle itself.

I think at this point you know as well as i do that the healthiest thing that can happen for the meta is for dk's most oppressive tools to be reeled in because its clear the rest of the classes arent getting them. [/quote]

santinojonny · August 17

Yeah, Molten Whip doesn’t need a nerf. I can hit for over 20k with it because I’m running 88% Critical Damage and hitting five people with the ultimate “Thrive in Chaos” while also using Balorgh, which gives me a huge buff for 12 and 15 seconds. Only then can I hit these insanely high Molten Whips on people who are not careful.

If you nerf it, I’m just going to do the same thing on a subclassed NB and hit 20k+ Spectral Bows there instead. DK will once again become a full tank/DoT class without any real burst potential.

That’s not really what we need. The HoF skill is the most problematic one, but it’s already embedded into the DK rotation.

d3adpain · August 17

nope, you can still hit very hard without corrosive or 2h ult
you can use balorgh with 250 ult, use leap or db into casting molten whip while incinerate and heart of flame would hit on the same time and you can 1 shot everyone apart from other dk's or werewolf that know it coming and they block or dodge some of the damage