Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

You got the power in DK, except one skill was providing burst over 95% of Cyrodiil population's HP. And so it got adjusted and ZOS looked to compensate elsewhere.

Here's the thing, you can still have similar power that it gave before, except you won't be doing it without making actual build sacrifices meaning you will have to cut sustain or tankiness like everyone else to gain access to that power.

You know what that is called? It's called balance. Something that does not exist at all on live which is why a majority of Cyrodiil players are DK, Sorc, and WW.

And also, pure DK was miles ahead of subclass DK in PvP. Anyone stating otherwise simply didn't and does not know any better. I'd take Wildfire over anything all the subclasses can provide.

When DK has wings, we had a DK claim on this forum that they'd slot streak? Sure thing, that's exactly why no one has ever seen them streak even once. Not being a pure DK is a massive nerf and there is nothing that subclassing can offer besides flexibility that isn't needed if you can locate the block and roll buttons, but esp. the block button.

I fail to see the argument being presented. And if you think the game is balanced, just ask it on the forums and get a poll. Ask on Reddit. Ask anywhere, even in-game, and the results will overwhelmingly say that it is not.

Interesting, we will see what the next nerf thread is after the next class buff.
Endless cycle.

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

Too late brother, but I agree, though nothing yet is final

I’ll be dk always and regardless of nerfs but it’s very frustrating seeing the anti fun crowd always killing everything that is enjoyable in this game before it really gets the chance to breathe, although admittedly werewolf got it worse than dk

I disagree with the idea that the dev team is trying to “kill the fun.”

So do I, I was referring to the participants of the forums asking for nerfs every time a class is fun to play, especially dk.

Not the dev team.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

Too late brother, but I agree, though nothing yet is final

I’ll be dk always and regardless of nerfs but it’s very frustrating seeing the anti fun crowd always killing everything that is enjoyable in this game before it really gets the chance to breathe, although admittedly werewolf got it worse than dk

I disagree with the idea that the dev team is trying to “kill the fun.”

So do I, I was referring to the participants of the forums asking for nerfs every time a class is fun to play, especially dk.

Not the dev team.

You seem to be disagreeing with yourself a bit, though. The devs are implementing the exact kinds of nerfs players have been asking for because the goal is to create a more level playing field.

I think you're attributing a lot more malice to the playerbase than is actually there. Most players aren't asking for DK to be nerfed because they personally want to ruin your fun or because they have something against DK players. They want PvP to be balanced so that everyone has a reasonable chance to compete and enjoy the game.

When you frame every request for balance as the “anti-fun crowd” trying to kill whatever class is enjoyable, it starts to sound like you're assuming these people are deliberately targeting you rather than simply responding to an obvious balance issue. That's getting into pretty paranoid, conspiracy-based thinking.

You can absolutely disagree with the nerfs and think DK is fun in its current state. But that doesn't mean the people asking for balance are trying to take that fun away from you.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

I disagree with the idea that the dev team is trying to “kill the fun.” The goal of the nerf is to balance PvP so everyone has a reasonable chance to have fun, not to remove fun from DK players…

…I’m all for DK being strong and fun to play. But there’s a difference between being strong and completely warping PvP around one class.

And yet, without significant improvements to other classes, especially through class masteries (I.E. no buffs to underperforming classes)-

the ‘reworked classes’ (especially DK) and those that mirror them (such as sorc) remain leagues above the others in probably the most ‘un-fun’ way possible (you have kit adjustments that serve to make it play worse while not addressing the ‘problem areas’).

I’m still a proponent of them needing to ‘buff’ other classes rather than repeatedly attempting to nerf reworked classes (hence why I said everyone should get a CoE-level mastery; reminder that CoF clearly remains for a reason). There is realistically no way a pure NB or pure Templar (for example) could ever healthily compete with anything reworked given that the overall goal and intention for reworks is to infuse new power and avenues into existing ‘classes’.

Whats funny is I was stating the same thing, I'd rather see other classes grow in power be it class masteries or otherwise than see werewolf and now dk brought down. Its not fun its boring and tiresome. They could periodically buff individual classes every other month or so, whatever schedule they like, and bring periodic excitement once people see the buffs and what they can do with it. And, it'll allow them to more carefully adjust the game for overall balance.

As it stands it just feels like they're catering to the crowd here complaining and demanding a quick fix to satisfy their distaste.

I don't really agree with this. The problem is that “just buff everything else” isn't a realistic solution when the gap is as large as it is. You can't leave an obviously overperforming class untouched for months or years while waiting for every other class to eventually catch up.

If DK is capable of doing 40k burst from a single ability in one global, bringing every other class up to that level isn't balance—it's just power creep. And considering the class reworks are slated to take years, telling everyone else to wait isn't exactly a reasonable solution for the current state of PvP.

The devs aren't necessarily “catering to the crowd” just because they're addressing something players are complaining about. Players asking for a level playing field isn't some malicious demand to make the game boring. Sometimes the quick fix is necessary precisely because the underlying, more comprehensive solution isn't coming anytime soon.

I'd love to see the other classes get meaningful buffs and reworks too. But that doesn't mean DK should remain massively overpowered in the meantime just so the nerf feels less disappointing.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

Too late brother, but I agree, though nothing yet is final

I’ll be dk always and regardless of nerfs but it’s very frustrating seeing the anti fun crowd always killing everything that is enjoyable in this game before it really gets the chance to breathe, although admittedly werewolf got it worse than dk

I disagree with the idea that the dev team is trying to “kill the fun.”

So do I, I was referring to the participants of the forums asking for nerfs every time a class is fun to play, especially dk.

Not the dev team.

You seem to be disagreeing with yourself a bit, though. The devs are implementing the exact kinds of nerfs players have been asking for because the goal is to create a more level playing field.

I think you're attributing a lot more malice to the playerbase than is actually there. Most players aren't asking for DK to be nerfed because they personally want to ruin your fun or because they have something against DK players. They want PvP to be balanced so that everyone has a reasonable chance to compete and enjoy the game.

When you frame every request for balance as the “anti-fun crowd” trying to kill whatever class is enjoyable, it starts to sound like you're assuming these people are deliberately targeting you rather than simply responding to an obvious balance issue. That's getting into pretty paranoid, conspiracy-based thinking.

You can absolutely disagree with the nerfs and think DK is fun in its current state. But that doesn't mean the people asking for balance are trying to take that fun away from you.

I think they (temporary nerfs to ‘reworked classes’ in smaller doses; buffs to underperforming masteries ‘in PvP’) have to be done in Tandem. I fully disagreed whip needed to have the high-end damage it did, but at the same time I didn’t want class identity staples that were improved (such as Corrosive) smashed for the sake of what ‘DK is doing to x, y, z’.

Regardless, I just hope they realize that significant ‘buffs’ have to happen as well as nerfs to pull us out of this ‘rut’ in PvP. It seems they are really nerf-heavy but as of right now I still see the top 3 (DK, sorc wolf, sorc) remaining… well… the top 3 with the prior being ‘just less fun’ but still better.

“Fully disagreed” isn't really an argument for why whip *needed* to have the high-end damage it did. If you're arguing that it should have stayed that strong, you need to explain what justified that level of burst.

Whip was too strong because it combined extremely high burst with reliability and very little commitment. Being able to put out around 40k damage from a single ability in one global is not something that can reasonably be justified simply because it's part of dk's identity. Class identity is important, but it shouldn't be a blank check for an ability to massively outperform everything else.

I agree that underperforming classes and masteries should receive buffs as well, and I don't think every part of dk needs to be gutted. But there's a difference between preserving class identity and preserving an ability at a level that was clearly warping PvP.

You can buff the classes that need help while also bringing abilities like whip back into a reasonable range. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

s3dulo wrote: »

It's so obvious they should keep DK the same and instead over-tune the the class mastery passives of the other classes. So many of the class passives are just useless garbage. There is so much room to improve those instead of nerfing the effort put into DK. Why not just buff the other classes all around? Just because they won't be fully reworked for many months doesn't mean they can't receive some serious buffs to their current state. It would be SO MUCH more interesting to see them buffed.

A full 50% damage reduction to Molten Whip is just laughably overkill. Just another typical ZOS L. A you all were doing so good too.

Just buffing every other class to dk's current level isn't really a solution. All that does is push the entire game toward everyone one- or two-shotting each other, which isn't an engaging PvP system. You don't fix one class being excessively strong by making every other class excessively strong too.

And the 50% reduction to whip is being misunderstood. It's a 50% reduction to the damage bonus from whip, not a flat 50% reduction to the final hit or to the base ability. The actual final whip hit is only being reduced by roughly 25% when you have the full 3 stack bonus. Math is important here.

MeridiaFavorsMe wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

Too late brother, but I agree, though nothing yet is final

I’ll be dk always and regardless of nerfs but it’s very frustrating seeing the anti fun crowd always killing everything that is enjoyable in this game before it really gets the chance to breathe, although admittedly werewolf got it worse than dk

DK has had five months of being more overpowered than any other class has been in the game. That's a pretty long time to “let it breathe.” At some point, allowing that level of imbalance to continue isn't protecting fun—it’s coming at the expense of everyone playing the other classes.

You can be disappointed that your class is getting nerfed without framing everyone who disagrees with you as people who just want to ruin the game.

I do this because ive been playing dk since the beta, our class is historically nerfed more than any other class. You talk about five months of being on top while Sorc has been significantly nerfed like, once, and was considered S tier the remainder of the time. Maybe twice idk, its been S tier as long as I can remember though.

DK though any time we're on top its met with major complaints and calls for nerfs and they all come from high concentration in these forums, which is why:

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

CannedChicken wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

Or, better idea, stop nerfing things. We were promised a level of power equivalent to subclassing for pure class characters, and we got it. No need to adjust anything. This is a “one more brush stroke ruins the painting” type of deal. With WW already getting slapped around, I don’t need them touching DK. It’s perfect as is.

Too late brother, but I agree, though nothing yet is final

I’ll be dk always and regardless of nerfs but it’s very frustrating seeing the anti fun crowd always killing everything that is enjoyable in this game before it really gets the chance to breathe, although admittedly werewolf got it worse than dk

I disagree with the idea that the dev team is trying to “kill the fun.”

So do I, I was referring to the participants of the forums asking for nerfs every time a class is fun to play, especially dk.

Not the dev team.

You seem to be disagreeing with yourself a bit, though. The devs are implementing the exact kinds of nerfs players have been asking for because the goal is to create a more level playing field.

I think you're attributing a lot more malice to the playerbase than is actually there. Most players aren't asking for DK to be nerfed because they personally want to ruin your fun or because they have something against DK players. They want PvP to be balanced so that everyone has a reasonable chance to compete and enjoy the game.

When you frame every request for balance as the “anti-fun crowd” trying to kill whatever class is enjoyable, it starts to sound like you're assuming these people are deliberately targeting you rather than simply responding to an obvious balance issue. That's getting into pretty paranoid, conspiracy-based thinking.

You can absolutely disagree with the nerfs and think DK is fun in its current state. But that doesn't mean the people asking for balance are trying to take that fun away from you.

I disagree with this. Every time people start talking about nerfs its "well i cant do this so we should take x away from that" like in a recent thread someone complained about rally taking them out of stealth so hof of course needs to drop block for dk lol.

Maybe not every last person is making these bad faith takes but enough are. And its not being dished out evenly. People even claiming DK Wings is superior to streak in pvp lol.

I simply disagree, from my perspective these forums are rampant with anti dk sentiment every time we're allowed to feast. And its not even just dk I was supportive of werewolves too and even the pulse gank shattered paths signet.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Maybe not every last person is making these bad faith takes but enough are. And it’s not being dished out evenly. People even claiming DK Wings is superior to streak in pvp lol.

Like it or not, Wings are categorically better than Streak, and are next for the chopping block.

A single skill should not provide 5 things.

Radiate77 wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Maybe not every last person is making these bad faith takes but enough are. And it’s not being dished out evenly. People even claiming DK Wings is superior to streak in pvp lol.

Like it or not, Wings are categorically better than Streak, and are next for the chopping block.

A single skill should not provide 5 things.

"Categorically better" means nothing, doing five things doesn't really matter when the skill in question, streak, does something no other skill does and its that much of an advantage.

Streak really needs to have its cost looked at so people can't spam it so freely, but here we are

Until it is, DK wings need to stay just as they are, and luckily you saying its next on the chopping block means little.

Not enough people here complaining about dk wings luckily to get it nerfed, probably because most people know that it is inferior to streak still.

AScarlato wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

I simply disagree, from my perspective these forums are rampant with anti dk sentiment every time we're allowed to feast.

To be fair, DKs have had more problematic eras of "feasting" than any other role I have seen.

Imo people only say that because dk is the most noticeable class when lots of people are playing it, its the front lines in your face class and they're flashy.

Nb was another class that was complained about a lot and didnt get nerfed nearly as much, and they were able to combine being highly brawly with also having not one but two escapes as well.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

@BardokRedSnow

If I have 20 pennies and only one dollar, the dollar is still worth more.

This diagram is pointless buddy, not the flex you think it is.

You’re saying pennies to a dollar, I agree, wings are the dollar, anyone in their right mind would take an AoE knockback AND stun over a stun and teleport.

I can’t recall the last time I knocked a player behind a staircase using Streak, nor can I remember throwing someone off a ledge for an instant kill using it, let alone a group of players as it happens in an AoE.

And no streak is the dollar, less effects yet worth more, being able to chain stun people while you zip around the battlefield is so incredibly powerful people make builds around it. No one is making a build based around dk wings. Its just a really fun and useful skill that feels good to have vs streak which is so op the best 1vXers historically are usually sorc.

s3dulo wrote: »

Or how about don't nerf DK at all and keep buffing the other classes until people stop complaining. Just because you can't refresh an entire class right now, doesn't mean you can't give it some generous buffs in the mean time.

This keeps getting repeated, but no one ever actually engages with the argument being made against it. You can't just powercreep every other class up to dk's level and call that balance.

DK is overtuned to the point that PvP would be miserable if every class could do the same level of burst. Nobody wants a game where everyone is constantly getting one- or two-shot. Buffing other classes is fine, but those buffs need to bring them toward a healthy balance point, not toward dk's current level.

“Just keep buffing everyone until people stop complaining” isn't a solution to an overtuned class. It's just unhealthy powercreep.