Radiate77 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Or they can stop all Stam return for 1 second after blocking regardless of whether you let go of the button. I like that option too.

This way people can stop cheating stam return turn-off by tapping their block instead of holding it.

I believe any fix should be stacking costs, etc. This primarily targeting pro-longed block (think roll dodge costs, cloak cost while moving, streak stacking costs).

Tap-blocking is more akin to a skillful ‘parry’ whereas ‘holding block’ is what lacks any finesse whatsoever.

Part of what makes a NB feel as horrible as it does in this meta (for example), is high health and/or a DK (again, for example) holding block and mitigating entire bursts for free. Beyond that, attempting to disable ‘tap blocking’ would further take responsiveness and agency away from blocking whereas punishing ‘block holding’ would return responsiveness, agency, the emphasis on proper positioning, and more.

it does need a limit though, tap blocking is currently far too strong even being a "skillful parry", especially with how constant and repeatable it is as long as you know the return timings.

Tap Blocking is a huge problem, that said, we need a better solution, I went back and edited my post because unfortunately on controller your Roll Dodge is keybound to Block, so every time you’d dodge it would cut off your stam… yikes.

Roll dodge and bash should have their own keybind option for console (where I can map to a different button, etc.)

Many games already have the ability to remap keybinds (controller inputs), even on console.

Hekk, even PC has the ability to remap keybinds as is.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Or they can stop all Stam return for 1 second after blocking regardless of whether you let go of the button. I like that option too.

This way people can stop cheating stam return turn-off by tapping their block instead of holding it.

I believe any fix should be stacking costs, etc. This primarily targeting pro-longed block (think roll dodge costs, cloak cost while moving, streak stacking costs).

Tap-blocking is more akin to a skillful ‘parry’ whereas ‘holding block’ is what lacks any finesse whatsoever.

Part of what makes a NB feel as horrible as it does in this meta (for example), is high health and/or a DK (again, for example) holding block and mitigating entire bursts for free. Beyond that, attempting to disable ‘tap blocking’ would further take responsiveness and agency away from blocking whereas punishing ‘block holding’ would return responsiveness, agency, the emphasis on proper positioning, and more.

it does need a limit though, tap blocking is currently far too strong even being a "skillful parry", especially with how constant and repeatable it is as long as you know the return timings.

So you would punish a player for… blocking an ultimate (again, for example) exactly when they’re suppose to while eating a block cost tick?

It of course could be cumulative and count as ‘consecutive block’ within x amount of seconds as well but trying to individually punish the ability to immediately block versus holding block would likely have unnecessary repercussions, especially given that console cannot bind a key specifically for bash (which… hmm, ZOS give console the ability to do that : D)

I'd be fine with a cumulative cost equivalent (like there is for roll dodging already), but either way, the point remains, it does need addressing in some way.

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I really wish Wild Adaptation and Green Keepers Hide were only 3 status effects so I could drop disdain but I’m sure nothing will change.

drop disdain and reequip signet, it keeps up 2 status effects by itself, you can keep up the other needed 3 relatively easily. You dont get any extra damage on status effects but you also arent punished for using ult and you only need to reach back up 133 ult for the proc part to kick in again.

You can also use bear again since it doesnt reduce your status effects damage.

for pure wardens signet is basically 666 weapon damage, 6% mitigation, your light attacks apply a status effect once every 2 seconds if you have more than 133 ultimate.

Disdain with is 1665 weapon damage and 15% with that logic then and you can run Monomyth.

Well, its not like you cant keep up around 2-3 status effects easily with a good upkeep on any build, you only need help with the last few. Though yeah if you use serpents to guarantee your status effect upkeep it for sure is giving you some weapon damage and mitigation, just not all of it by itself.
Its still a good set for sure dont get me wrong but running signet allows you to run something like aeries cry + essence thief. At least thats what i run on my warden ww cause i need the help with sustain and i like aeries in general.

Its a give or take, serpent by itself isnt a bad choice. Its just not the boogeyman it once was when signet was great.

I think people lack the understanding to realize how much the value decreases when you are bouncing between targets.

It takes time for your enchants to proc their status effects, it takes time for your spammable to proc effects, running 1 charged (as an option) decreases your overall damage output, and then pray they don’t have a purge that makes the increases from CP, etc. even more variable (namely fighting groups and the ‘purify’ synergy)

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I really wish Wild Adaptation and Green Keepers Hide were only 3 status effects so I could drop disdain but I’m sure nothing will change.

drop disdain and reequip signet, it keeps up 2 status effects by itself, you can keep up the other needed 3 relatively easily. You dont get any extra damage on status effects but you also arent punished for using ult and you only need to reach back up 133 ult for the proc part to kick in again.

You can also use bear again since it doesnt reduce your status effects damage.

for pure wardens signet is basically 666 weapon damage, 6% mitigation, your light attacks apply a status effect once every 2 seconds if you have more than 133 ultimate.

Disdain with is 1665 weapon damage and 15% with that logic then and you can run Monomyth.

Well, its not like you cant keep up around 2-3 status effects easily with a good upkeep on any build, you only need help with the last few. Though yeah if you use serpents to guarantee your status effect upkeep it for sure is giving you some weapon damage and mitigation, just not all of it by itself.
Its still a good set for sure dont get me wrong but running signet allows you to run something like aeries cry + essence thief. At least thats what i run on my warden ww cause i need the help with sustain and i like aeries in general.

Its a give or take, serpent by itself isnt a bad choice. Its just not the boogeyman it once was when signet was great.

Signet is really good on warden WW I’ll agree I just really don’t like the ultimate threshold and holding my ult that long when I’m not on werewolf. Also disdain increases the brittle passive duration so if you have an ice staff, disdain, and monomyth you get 50% crit damage with those three.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I really wish Wild Adaptation and Green Keepers Hide were only 3 status effects so I could drop disdain but I’m sure nothing will change.

drop disdain and reequip signet, it keeps up 2 status effects by itself, you can keep up the other needed 3 relatively easily. You dont get any extra damage on status effects but you also arent punished for using ult and you only need to reach back up 133 ult for the proc part to kick in again.

You can also use bear again since it doesnt reduce your status effects damage.

for pure wardens signet is basically 666 weapon damage, 6% mitigation, your light attacks apply a status effect once every 2 seconds if you have more than 133 ultimate.

Disdain with is 1665 weapon damage and 15% with that logic then and you can run Monomyth.

Well, its not like you cant keep up around 2-3 status effects easily with a good upkeep on any build, you only need help with the last few. Though yeah if you use serpents to guarantee your status effect upkeep it for sure is giving you some weapon damage and mitigation, just not all of it by itself.
Its still a good set for sure dont get me wrong but running signet allows you to run something like aeries cry + essence thief. At least thats what i run on my warden ww cause i need the help with sustain and i like aeries in general.

Its a give or take, serpent by itself isnt a bad choice. Its just not the boogeyman it once was when signet was great.

I think people lack the understanding to realize how much the value decreases when you are bouncing between targets.

It takes time for your enchants to proc their status effects, it takes time for your spammable to proc effects, running 1 charged (as an option) decreases your overall damage output, and then pray they don’t have a purge that makes the increases from CP, etc. even more variable (namely fighting groups and the ‘purify’ synergy)

Its what you have to build around on warden so its what you gotta do imo. The value obviously will go down when you switch targets cause you have to start from 0. It should still take around 4 seconds to reach max values on a new target and a purge is pretty meaningless because you keep reapplying these effects at basically no cost.

Imo its not the switching targets that makes it worse, its the fact that you have nowhere near as much sustain to play around with compared to sorc despite running a sustain set.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

I really wish Wild Adaptation and Green Keepers Hide were only 3 status effects so I could drop disdain but I’m sure nothing will change.

drop disdain and reequip signet, it keeps up 2 status effects by itself, you can keep up the other needed 3 relatively easily. You dont get any extra damage on status effects but you also arent punished for using ult and you only need to reach back up 133 ult for the proc part to kick in again.

You can also use bear again since it doesnt reduce your status effects damage.

for pure wardens signet is basically 666 weapon damage, 6% mitigation, your light attacks apply a status effect once every 2 seconds if you have more than 133 ultimate.

Disdain with is 1665 weapon damage and 15% with that logic then and you can run Monomyth.

Well, its not like you cant keep up around 2-3 status effects easily with a good upkeep on any build, you only need help with the last few. Though yeah if you use serpents to guarantee your status effect upkeep it for sure is giving you some weapon damage and mitigation, just not all of it by itself.
Its still a good set for sure dont get me wrong but running signet allows you to run something like aeries cry + essence thief. At least thats what i run on my warden ww cause i need the help with sustain and i like aeries in general.

Its a give or take, serpent by itself isnt a bad choice. Its just not the boogeyman it once was when signet was great.

I think people lack the understanding to realize how much the value decreases when you are bouncing between targets.

It takes time for your enchants to proc their status effects, it takes time for your spammable to proc effects, running 1 charged (as an option) decreases your overall damage output, and then pray they don’t have a purge that makes the increases from CP, etc. even more variable (namely fighting groups and the ‘purify’ synergy)

Its what you have to build around on warden so its what you gotta do imo.

Don’t disagree here. It was clear Signet was suppose to be some tie-in with the temp Warden masteries and without it, it’s Disdain for value or go home.

Even if you wanted to do well with a pure Warden, you’re almost always better off doing whatever necessary for status effects to achieve the goal of the highest uptimes for the passives. It’s just incredibly unfortunate that even with Disdain- Warden now falls far shorter of the ‘Grace of DK’ than it once did.

The elemental susceptibility changes would just further increase the divide with increased costs (although I do think the cost is appropriate but it negatively affects Warden sustain as you mentioned nevertheless).

The solution is to buff DK even more

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of bow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of blow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Haha, the old bat swarm! I miss that so very much! (yes, I know this is off topic a little bit)

Remember the one that let you teleport and gave you invisibility? Now that one was cool albeit buggy!

Edit to be a bit on topic:

So I made this list for a friend in discussion. None of this requires serious investment and even though it’s DK, a lot of this isn’t sourced uniquely to DK in any real way (aside from Mastery):

“Look at DK for example:

-50% standard block mit
-20% s and b block mit
-10% from skill line passive
-16% from CP active
-6% from passive red cp (I believe)
-up to 30% from mastery
-10% from defensive posture”

Yes, it's possible to get some really high mitigation, but again this all cements you. Bracing Anchor alone turns you into a slug. In terms of actually doing anything other than just being a block-tank that just blocks, -they- still need to use line of sight to survive a zerg actually intent on killing them. And putting all those mitigations listed on a DK that does offense? Sure, you might be able to kill some stuff. But it's still inferior to a meta-spec'd dk that can move around and use LOS. THe offense-block DK is a niche build that is off-meta but it's being treated in this thread as a grevious outlier like its 2014 when DK was truly a DK, and yet even 2014 dk lost to good nbs and sorcs in true 1v1 scenarios. I'll never understand the frustration with a blocking target, it's the same as other niche styles like pure-ganker or pure-healer. They are not the actual reason for the game's balance being a mess. The unkillable complaints are tower-enjoyers, LOS, ballgroups(also los!, SPEED, KITE)

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of blow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Haha, the old bat swarm! I miss that so very much! (yes, I know this is off topic a little bit)

Remember the one that let you teleport and gave you invisibility? Now that one was cool albeit buggy!

Edit to be a bit on topic:

So I made this list for a friend in discussion. None of this requires serious investment and even though it’s DK, a lot of this isn’t sourced uniquely to DK in any real way (aside from Mastery):

“Look at DK for example:

-50% standard block mit
-20% s and b block mit
-10% from skill line passive
-16% from CP active
-6% from passive red cp (I believe)
-up to 30% from mastery
-10% from defensive posture”

Yes, it's possible to get some really high mitigation, but again this all cements you. Bracing Anchor alone turns you into a slug. In terms of actually doing anything other than just being a block-tank that just blocks, -they- still need to use line of sight to survive a zerg actually intent on killing them. And putting all those mitigations listed on a DK that does offense? Sure, you might be able to kill some stuff. But it's still inferior to a meta-spec'd dk that can move around and use LOS. THe offense-block DK is a niche build that is off-meta but it's being treated in this thread as a grevious outlier like its 2014 when DK was truly a DK, and yet even 2014 dk lost to good nbs and sorcs in true 1v1 scenarios. I'll never understand the frustration with a blocking target, it's the same as other niche styles like pure-ganker or pure-healer. They are not the actual reason for the game's balance being a mess. The unkillable complaints are tower-enjoyers, LOS, ballgroups(also los!, SPEED, KITE)

You say these are significant draw backs but the main issue with these are they require less than half of to ‘feel unkillable while blocking’ to 1/2/3 and none require any significant investment in build. You have begun to attribute a single set, trait, or enchant to the endeavor with just my examples alone. You can have all of this and be full damage/high sustain/full tank/etc.

Perma-blocking isn't meta, is my point. It's an off-meta way to play offensively. It should be DK exclusive.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of blow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Haha, the old bat swarm! I miss that so very much! (yes, I know this is off topic a little bit)

Remember the one that let you teleport and gave you invisibility? Now that one was cool albeit buggy!

Edit to be a bit on topic:

So I made this list for a friend in discussion. None of this requires serious investment and even though it’s DK, a lot of this isn’t sourced uniquely to DK in any real way (aside from Mastery):

“Look at DK for example:

-50% standard block mit
-20% s and b block mit
-10% from skill line passive
-16% from CP active
-6% from passive red cp (I believe)
-up to 30% from mastery
-10% from defensive posture”

Yes, it's possible to get some really high mitigation, but again this all cements you. Bracing Anchor alone turns you into a slug. In terms of actually doing anything other than just being a block-tank that just blocks, -they- still need to use line of sight to survive a zerg actually intent on killing them. And putting all those mitigations listed on a DK that does offense? Sure, you might be able to kill some stuff. But it's still inferior to a meta-spec'd dk that can move around and use LOS. THe offense-block DK is a niche build that is off-meta but it's being treated in this thread as a grevious outlier like its 2014 when DK was truly a DK, and yet even 2014 dk lost to good nbs and sorcs in true 1v1 scenarios. I'll never understand the frustration with a blocking target, it's the same as other niche styles like pure-ganker or pure-healer. They are not the actual reason for the game's balance being a mess. The unkillable complaints are tower-enjoyers, LOS, ballgroups(also los!, SPEED, KITE)

You say these are significant draw backs but the main issue with these are they require less than half of to ‘feel unkillable while blocking’ to 1/2/3 and none require any significant investment in build. You have begun to attribute a single set, trait, or enchant to the endeavor with just my examples alone. You can have all of this and be full damage/high sustain/full tank/etc.

Perma-blocking isn't meta, is my point. It's an off-meta way to play offensively. It should be DK exclusive.

I'm sorry but why do you think perma blocking in any form with little to no investment deserves to exist?

Also lets come clear. All that perma blocking needs at this moment is around 23-24k stamina and around that much magicka. If you have that you can perma block any number of people because your stam at most drains 3 times a sec no matter how many you are blocking.

Whether or not if you can survive that many people is a different question.

And yes there are skills that go through block.

Do you know how a normal fight against a dk goes? Ofc you do but i guess you need it told point blank.

They block with really high mitigation forever, block casting their skills. You apply 1 cc that goes through block and do your regular damage for around 1/10th of a second. They break free and continue blocking till they have their combo being capable of doing 40k+ damage in one go if done right.

I dont begrudge any dk playing like this. Because the game allows you to play in this manner. I too play like this whenever im playing dk because i can. This isnt skillful, this isnt healthy, this isnt an off meta build path. This is an oversight that should have been corrected in pts but didnt because mains of a class cares more about their classes being broken than the game being healthy.

Core of flame should have never left pts in its current state. Heart of flame should have never been buffed.

There is no conceivable way of defending dks infinite sustain. It is an oversight and needs fixing yesterday.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of blow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Haha, the old bat swarm! I miss that so very much! (yes, I know this is off topic a little bit)

Remember the one that let you teleport and gave you invisibility? Now that one was cool albeit buggy!

Edit to be a bit on topic:

So I made this list for a friend in discussion. None of this requires serious investment and even though it’s DK, a lot of this isn’t sourced uniquely to DK in any real way (aside from Mastery):

“Look at DK for example:

-50% standard block mit
-20% s and b block mit
-10% from skill line passive
-16% from CP active
-6% from passive red cp (I believe)
-up to 30% from mastery
-10% from defensive posture”

Yes, it's possible to get some really high mitigation, but again this all cements you. Bracing Anchor alone turns you into a slug. In terms of actually doing anything other than just being a block-tank that just blocks, -they- still need to use line of sight to survive a zerg actually intent on killing them. And putting all those mitigations listed on a DK that does offense? Sure, you might be able to kill some stuff. But it's still inferior to a meta-spec'd dk that can move around and use LOS. THe offense-block DK is a niche build that is off-meta but it's being treated in this thread as a grevious outlier like its 2014 when DK was truly a DK, and yet even 2014 dk lost to good nbs and sorcs in true 1v1 scenarios. I'll never understand the frustration with a blocking target, it's the same as other niche styles like pure-ganker or pure-healer. They are not the actual reason for the game's balance being a mess. The unkillable complaints are tower-enjoyers, LOS, ballgroups(also los!, SPEED, KITE)

You say these are significant draw backs but the main issue with these are they require less than half of to ‘feel unkillable while blocking’ to 1/2/3 and none require any significant investment in build. You have begun to attribute a single set, trait, or enchant to the endeavor with just my examples alone. You can have all of this and be full damage/high sustain/full tank/etc.

Perma-blocking isn't meta, is my point. It's an off-meta way to play offensively. It should be DK exclusive.

I'm sorry but why do you think perma blocking in any form with little to no investment deserves to exist?

Also lets come clear. All that perma blocking needs at this moment is around 23-24k stamina and around that much magicka. If you have that you can perma block any number of people because your stam at most drains 3 times a sec no matter how many you are blocking.

Whether or not if you can survive that many people is a different question.

And yes there are skills that go through block.

Do you know how a normal fight against a dk goes? Ofc you do but i guess you need it told point blank.

They block with really high mitigation forever, block casting their skills. You apply 1 cc that goes through block and do your regular damage for around 1/10th of a second. They break free and continue blocking till they have their combo being capable of doing 40k+ damage in one go if done right.

I dont begrudge any dk playing like this. Because the game allows you to play in this manner. I too play like this whenever im playing dk because i can. This isnt skillful, this isnt healthy, this isnt an off meta build path. This is an oversight that should have been corrected in pts but didnt because mains of a class cares more about their classes being broken than the game being healthy.

Core of flame should have never left pts in its current state. Heart of flame should have never been buffed.

There is no conceivable way of defending dks infinite sustain. It is an oversight and needs fixing yesterday.

They still die, and get bursted down very regularly. The fact that theres a belief that "dks can perma block and negate all burst damage" and yet they get bursted down is wild. Is this 2014? The 2014 permablock sustain was infinitely superior to core of flame. The imperial city nerfs to permablock were still more infinitely more sustainable then core of flame.

And yes I believe perma-blocking should exist. This game is not a 1st person twitch reflex shooter. This game is not dark souls with a parry system. This mechanic is as intrinsic to the game as light attack weaving. And furthermore it should be a playstyle that DK is exemplary at, superior to all other classes as a role and class identifying outlier. Same way NBs should be able to cloak and invis away from every fight as an outlier.

A playstyle that invalidates 95% of builds isnt a playstyle and the fact that you literally dont have to invest anything to achieve it is absurd.

Of course players will want to live a fantasy of being overpowered. Players cant always have what they want otherwise the game would be unplayable.
The one thing i want more than anything is build diversity and trust me core of flame singlehandedly holds that back more than anything.

There is no trying to argue otherwise.

Lord_Hev wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of blow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Haha, the old bat swarm! I miss that so very much! (yes, I know this is off topic a little bit)

Remember the one that let you teleport and gave you invisibility? Now that one was cool albeit buggy!

Edit to be a bit on topic:

So I made this list for a friend in discussion. None of this requires serious investment and even though it’s DK, a lot of this isn’t sourced uniquely to DK in any real way (aside from Mastery):

“Look at DK for example:

-50% standard block mit
-20% s and b block mit
-10% from skill line passive
-16% from CP active
-6% from passive red cp (I believe)
-up to 30% from mastery
-10% from defensive posture”

Yes, it's possible to get some really high mitigation, but again this all cements you. Bracing Anchor alone turns you into a slug. In terms of actually doing anything other than just being a block-tank that just blocks, -they- still need to use line of sight to survive a zerg actually intent on killing them. And putting all those mitigations listed on a DK that does offense? Sure, you might be able to kill some stuff. But it's still inferior to a meta-spec'd dk that can move around and use LOS. THe offense-block DK is a niche build that is off-meta but it's being treated in this thread as a grevious outlier like its 2014 when DK was truly a DK, and yet even 2014 dk lost to good nbs and sorcs in true 1v1 scenarios. I'll never understand the frustration with a blocking target, it's the same as other niche styles like pure-ganker or pure-healer. They are not the actual reason for the game's balance being a mess. The unkillable complaints are tower-enjoyers, LOS, ballgroups(also los!, SPEED, KITE)

You say these are significant draw backs but the main issue with these are they require less than half of to ‘feel unkillable while blocking’ to 1/2/3 and none require any significant investment in build. You have begun to attribute a single set, trait, or enchant to the endeavor with just my examples alone. You can have all of this and be full damage/high sustain/full tank/etc.

Perma-blocking isn't meta, is my point. It's an off-meta way to play offensively. It should be DK exclusive.

I'm sorry but why do you think perma blocking in any form with little to no investment deserves to exist?

Also lets come clear. All that perma blocking needs at this moment is around 23-24k stamina and around that much magicka. If you have that you can perma block any number of people because your stam at most drains 3 times a sec no matter how many you are blocking.

Whether or not if you can survive that many people is a different question.

And yes there are skills that go through block.

Do you know how a normal fight against a dk goes? Ofc you do but i guess you need it told point blank.

They block with really high mitigation forever, block casting their skills. You apply 1 cc that goes through block and do your regular damage for around 1/10th of a second. They break free and continue blocking till they have their combo being capable of doing 40k+ damage in one go if done right.

I dont begrudge any dk playing like this. Because the game allows you to play in this manner. I too play like this whenever im playing dk because i can. This isnt skillful, this isnt healthy, this isnt an off meta build path. This is an oversight that should have been corrected in pts but didnt because mains of a class cares more about their classes being broken than the game being healthy.

Core of flame should have never left pts in its current state. Heart of flame should have never been buffed.

There is no conceivable way of defending dks infinite sustain. It is an oversight and needs fixing yesterday.

They still die, and get bursted down very regularly. The fact that theres a belief that "dks can perma block and negate all burst damage" and yet they get bursted down is wild. Is this 2014? The 2014 permablock sustain was infinitely superior to core of flame. The imperial city nerfs to permablock were still more infinitely more sustainable then core of flame.

And yes I believe perma-blocking should exist. This game is not a 1st person twitch reflex shooter. This game is not dark souls with a parry system. This mechanic is as intrinsic to the game as light attack weaving. And furthermore it should be a playstyle that DK is exemplary at, superior to all other classes as a role and class identifying outlier. Same way NBs should be able to cloak and invis away from every fight as an outlier.

Templars should be the best permablockers if they were done properly in this game

Lord_Hev wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Agree with everything except block mitigation. Either keep it as it is now. Or nerf it but also remove all CCs that are capable of going through block.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

Did they really ask for "easy numbers changes that could be realistically implemented within the current PTS cycle" (cause if they did literally just nerf core of flame and coe with battle spirit active by half and then call it a day. Thats literally all they have to do)

Also seconding half the sustain on core of flame, reducing the heal (and also the sustain) on Coe and buffing nightblades for pvp.

I disagree that block mitigation needs changes, yes its incredibly strong but blocking is a problem because of heart of flame. Without it a dk would go out of stam in a few seconds if they try to block the way they do now.

I also disagree that flame lash needs further nerfs but might be a good idea to keep an eye on the skill when core of flame gets nerfed. At the moment its incredibly easy to stonewall flame lash by just blocking whenever its up but when perma blocking isnt an option, that skill will probably shoot up in viability. And i understand its already a pretty strong skill in places like cyro

yes they did indeed ask for that (I'm assuming because of the layoffs).

I disagree about block, I was running a 20k resistance DK (5 light armor) that only had the class mastery and sword and board equipped as the "investments" into block and was face tanking zergs (including sieges) just by holding block and tapping inhale. Running Sorc with that kind of build with CoE and shields I couldn't even attempt that kind of face-tanking, that's how much mitigation block gives, it is completely over the top in PvP and has needed addressing for a long time now.

I'm on the fence with whip, I'm only really suggesting it as a temporary thing anyway so it would be 1 patch while the next refresh is done then reverted since there will be another refreshed class (and assuming better masteries).

No, you do not. I can face tank with all offense on my DK as well. For a very short period of time against a "zerg." You gass out in seconds, do not have access to oldschool 140 cost batswarm, and absolutely cannot sustain perma block against 3 half-competent players applying consistent pressure without LOS. And if I have to LOS as a dk, why am I playing a DK?


Every true pure zero damage block-tank I see in Cyrodiil rn, cannot even survive 20 seconds against an actual *Zerg* focusing them and not just being lazy or full of blow light attackers. Get this, they still need to LOS, and they still cannot survive. CCs that go through block rn are a dime a dozen. And in order to truly permablock, it requires investment. Just as if you want to truly do damage and have adequate kill potential, requires investment.

Haha, the old bat swarm! I miss that so very much! (yes, I know this is off topic a little bit)

Remember the one that let you teleport and gave you invisibility? Now that one was cool albeit buggy!

Edit to be a bit on topic:

So I made this list for a friend in discussion. None of this requires serious investment and even though it’s DK, a lot of this isn’t sourced uniquely to DK in any real way (aside from Mastery):

“Look at DK for example:

-50% standard block mit
-20% s and b block mit
-10% from skill line passive
-16% from CP active
-6% from passive red cp (I believe)
-up to 30% from mastery
-10% from defensive posture”

Yes, it's possible to get some really high mitigation, but again this all cements you. Bracing Anchor alone turns you into a slug. In terms of actually doing anything other than just being a block-tank that just blocks, -they- still need to use line of sight to survive a zerg actually intent on killing them. And putting all those mitigations listed on a DK that does offense? Sure, you might be able to kill some stuff. But it's still inferior to a meta-spec'd dk that can move around and use LOS. THe offense-block DK is a niche build that is off-meta but it's being treated in this thread as a grevious outlier like its 2014 when DK was truly a DK, and yet even 2014 dk lost to good nbs and sorcs in true 1v1 scenarios. I'll never understand the frustration with a blocking target, it's the same as other niche styles like pure-ganker or pure-healer. They are not the actual reason for the game's balance being a mess. The unkillable complaints are tower-enjoyers, LOS, ballgroups(also los!, SPEED, KITE)

You say these are significant draw backs but the main issue with these are they require less than half of to ‘feel unkillable while blocking’ to 1/2/3 and none require any significant investment in build. You have begun to attribute a single set, trait, or enchant to the endeavor with just my examples alone. You can have all of this and be full damage/high sustain/full tank/etc.

Perma-blocking isn't meta, is my point. It's an off-meta way to play offensively. It should be DK exclusive.

I'm sorry but why do you think perma blocking in any form with little to no investment deserves to exist?

Also lets come clear. All that perma blocking needs at this moment is around 23-24k stamina and around that much magicka. If you have that you can perma block any number of people because your stam at most drains 3 times a sec no matter how many you are blocking.

Whether or not if you can survive that many people is a different question.

And yes there are skills that go through block.

Do you know how a normal fight against a dk goes? Ofc you do but i guess you need it told point blank.

They block with really high mitigation forever, block casting their skills. You apply 1 cc that goes through block and do your regular damage for around 1/10th of a second. They break free and continue blocking till they have their combo being capable of doing 40k+ damage in one go if done right.

I dont begrudge any dk playing like this. Because the game allows you to play in this manner. I too play like this whenever im playing dk because i can. This isnt skillful, this isnt healthy, this isnt an off meta build path. This is an oversight that should have been corrected in pts but didnt because mains of a class cares more about their classes being broken than the game being healthy.

Core of flame should have never left pts in its current state. Heart of flame should have never been buffed.

There is no conceivable way of defending dks infinite sustain. It is an oversight and needs fixing yesterday.

They still die, and get bursted down very regularly. The fact that theres a belief that "dks can perma block and negate all burst damage" and yet they get bursted down is wild. Is this 2014? The 2014 permablock sustain was infinitely superior to core of flame. The imperial city nerfs to permablock were still more infinitely more sustainable then core of flame.

And yes I believe perma-blocking should exist. This game is not a 1st person twitch reflex shooter. This game is not dark souls with a parry system. This mechanic is as intrinsic to the game as light attack weaving. And furthermore it should be a playstyle that DK is exemplary at, superior to all other classes as a role and class identifying outlier. Same way NBs should be able to cloak and invis away from every fight as an outlier.

Templars should be the best permablockers if they were done properly in this game

I'm thinking more offensively, but templars are dual-esque counterpart to DK, similarly to how NB and sorc mirror each other. Templars do have good permablock frontline tools as well, and it fits with the paladin theme. And the whole you know "templar house", but the current game's climate has really double-downed on indirectly nerfing that. DK's core of flame feels so busted because it calls upon an old way of playing, but it clashes with this new direction of the last 6 years that imo is very anti-eso at its heart and root.

I'm basically agreeing that yea, Templars should make good tanks too. The issue with templar isn't just templar, but how the game has "evolved" more directly rather than being specifically templar's fault.

I think Plar can be a fine permablock tank with the new masteries system and Necro can do it in it's own annoying infinite sustain way. My main gripe with Plar is that it has fallen into a state of being the worst version of a Priest and a Paladin being combined. The class just lack so much identity and purpose, and I just feel bad for playing it other than my urge to be contrarian.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Also, it seems the ESO community (on the forums at least) is giving the "yugioh players can't read" meme a real run for its money, with the amount of commenters who have completely ignored the multiple comments now that these numbers changes would be temporary for U51 and be looked at reverting/re-adjusting in U52 when ZOS has more time to make better and more targeted changes.

Yes, because this assumes a level of trust needed, that for me at least, as yet to be achieved.

Firstmep wrote: »

Is there a link to the devs asking for easy numbers or is this some rumor from a streamer or some discord?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697192/u51-feedback-thread-for-classes-and-abilities/p1

The initial post of the main class/abilities feedback thread.



I guess it's not technically asking for numbers changes, but it definitely states (or at minimum infers) that numbers/stats changes would be what they focus on for the current PTS, while anything more technical (which I would assume would be things like conditions, effects, buffs/debuffs, etc.) would be taken to the team and a timeline discussed.

Like I said in the OP though, if ZOS can make adjustments that are beyond numbers changes, simply making CoE not work for WW, health cost or core combat would fix that mastery, but that change (to me) seems more in-depth in the code since it would (I assume) need to be done with checks and database lookups that would need to be triple checked that all have been accounted for (since missing one could cause some big bugs).

Some of the other more ideal fixes for other classes/abilities would be the same too (I assume), such as Jabs faster tick rate/changing it to single target damage to get around evasion, or things like projectile speeds (that I assume would require some effort from art teams to blend these to the new timings properly) since they interact with more systems than just a numbers change would interact with.