Templar Viability and Future Changes - DEV TEAM PLEASE LOOK

Jabbs_Giggity · August 10

Since U35, Templar has been slotted for arguably one of the most consistent, lowest-rated classes in nearly all aspects of the game. With the Spoiler alert for U51, it is abundantly clear that the intention is to further gut this class.

I whole-heartedly implore the Dev Team to consider player feedback seriously. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom you are our real, only voices on this platform. If the changes to Templar over the years have taught anyone anything, it is that the proposed and subsequently future assumptions will KILL this class and cause a massive exodus among Templar players, both PVE and PVP.

If the idea behind the Templar reworks is to tie Weapon and Spell Damage referred to as Damage from this point on to Armor, this is single-handedly the biggest mistake ZOS has/will ever make to this class. A long history of double dipping has plagued the Templar class for as long as anyone could remember...

Backlash/Power of the Light
Puncturing Sweeps/Jabs with DoT vs Direct
Puncturing Sweeps/Jabs with Evasion
Judgement's Band is being double dipped with Battle Spirit and Halved against Players

The entire Class is treated like an =IF statement, where IF you do a then b happens. And if b happens then also c...etc. The House design on the Templar is out dated and lackluster. I believe trying to revitalize this concept no longer fits the theme of ESO gameplay design and mechanics. Where subtle ground effects has meaning for this class, it should not be its overall design with such a fast paced game design, both in PVP and PVE. "Enemies", whether NPC targets or Players are no longer stationary and are constantly moving and shifting. The Templar class needs to see a mobile refresh.

Now, with the above Spoiler and assumptions on how ZOS plans to address the Templar Class going forward the player base may begin to disengage with this treatment. We are now entering an extremely punishing build design, where

If, you build solely for Armor you get some damage, at the expense of not using damage sets like the Class Set Aetheric Lancer.
If, you built for Armor you are punished because the system will double dip and you will lose damage if debuffed by major & minors for Maim, Cowardice, and now Breach before applying unique Armor debuffs like from Crimson Oath set.
If you decide to use only Damage sets, and do not build for maximum Armor, you are further punished by being Armor debuffed.

This is a recipe for disaster, and I believe that if the Dev Team gets ahead of this and addresses these concerns now Templar might have a chance...

Templar should arguably be one of the most Balanced classes by design, featuring both raw power and incredible defense. As it currently stands, Templars are lackluster in overall Damage, despite being able to achieve such high Damage statistics and tool-tips. Why? Because Templar does not have any synchronizing skills that allow for mobile gameplay and synergizing Damage output.

I understand there are things to discuss regarding "Class Rework", but there is things that could be fixed immediately. Like in this next u51 update!

Aetheric Lancer
This class set is arguably one of Templar's biggest current pain-points. The whack-a-mole, RNG follow-the circle gameplay is both a hinderance and a nuisance. This Class Set should have received the treatment Pyrebrand currently got in PTS Patch Notes v12.1.1:

Pyrebrand: This set now grants a stack of Landslide, up to once every 10 seconds, when it activates.

This set actively gave the Dragonknight an indirect buff.

Instead, Aetheric Lancer should have been changed to:
(2 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(3 items) Adds 657 Critical Chance
(4 items) Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
(5 items) Dealing damage with Burning Light twice within 30 seconds creates an Aura on the caster for 5 seconds. While the Aura is active, using an Aedric Spear ability launches a spear at your target and all enemies within 8 meters of that target, dealing 1684 Magic Damage and applying Sundered and increasing your Damage by 300 for 6 seconds.
Aetheric Lancer deals 2% more damage for each Templar ability slotted. And scales off your Damage.

Templar's Jabs/Sweeps should be unique and not effected by Evasion. Some have confirmed that Dragonknight's Flame Lash morph is not being effected by Evasion, despite being an AOE ability when procced.

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Now that my mind is rolling...

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

1. Templar is debuffed by Evasion on jabs.

Since Flame Whip is Single Target, at base, has anyone tested if the Flame Lash morph turning into AOE is actually effected by Evasion??

Can someone confirm on PTS?

It's 100% single target.

Considering breach Templar got another nerf.

Seriously @ZOS_Kevin can't you do the math? I understand making it 1% of resistances + original 6% will be close to lost 10%, but this? Seriously?

Jabbs_Giggity · August 10

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_Kevin

Even using AI to scour the world wide web for information regarding the Templar. The verdict is that AI agrees with the players, not the ZOS vision fed to us in this U51 Spoiler...

Using the prompt:
Explain to me in a concise approach what the current pain-points are for the Elder Scrolls Online Templar Class. Break this up briefly for PVP and PVE aspects of the game. Filter any results to U35-U50.

Here is the return:
Templar's problems are less about being bad and more about being increasingly outclassed in mobility, pressure, and flexibility. The class still has strong healing, cleansing, execute pressure, and defensive tools.

PvE — Main Pain Points
Pain point What it means
Lower ceiling / weaker meta position Templar can produce strong DPS, but other classes and subclass combinations generally offer better optimization and utility at the top end.
Jabs dependency A large part of the traditional Templar identity revolves around Puncturing Sweeps/Strikes. When melee uptime is poor, Templar loses a significant portion of its class-specific identity and pressure.
Limited class utility Compared with classes such as Arcanist, DK, Warden, etc., Templar brings less uniquely valuable group utility while DPSing.
Mobility Templar has relatively few tools for rapidly repositioning. Mechanics that force movement disproportionately hurt melee Templar.
Rotation rigidity Optimal Templar DPS tends to require maintaining several buffs/debuffs while keeping melee uptime. It isn't necessarily difficult, but there is less flexibility when encounters disrupt the rotation.
Healing is its strongest niche Templar remains an excellent healer, but that creates an awkward identity problem: its most unquestionably competitive role is healing rather than DPS.
Subclassing exposes the problem U50 gives Templar access to powerful combinations from other classes. That can make a Templar-based build stronger, but simultaneously highlights weaknesses in the pure-class toolkit.

The important distinction is that Templar isn't incapable of high DPS—current U50 builds can still produce very respectable numbers. The issue is that achieving competitive results often involves builds or subclass combinations that compensate for shortcomings in the native kit.

PvP — Main Pain Points

PvP is where the problems are more obvious.

1. Mobility is the biggest weakness

Templar has good defenses and healing, but comparatively poor escape/repositioning tools.

That creates a basic problem:

Templar can survive pressure better than it can disengage from it.

Against classes with strong mobility—especially Sorcerer, Nightblade and increasingly mobile DK builds—a Templar can be forced to fight on the opponent's terms.

2. Burst is telegraphed

The classic Templar pressure sequence is still recognizable:

Power of the Light → Jabs → Crescent/Radial Sweep → Radiant Oppression

That remains dangerous, but experienced players know what they're looking for.

Current players still describe pure Templar as viable, including tankier and burst-oriented configurations, but generally not among the strongest PvP classes.

3. Limited ranged pressure

Templar's strongest identity is still fundamentally close-to-mid-range.

If an opponent refuses to stand in your effective range, Templar has fewer ways of maintaining meaningful pressure than classes with strong ranged kits.

4. Sustain can become expensive

Templar has excellent resource-management tools, but its defensive/healing toolkit can become resource-intensive when under sustained pressure. This becomes particularly noticeable in prolonged 1vX situations.

5. Strong cleanse, but not enough to solve the problem

Extended Ritual/Cleansing Ritual remains one of Templar's genuinely excellent PvP tools.

It is particularly valuable against heavy-debuff builds and Werewolves. Current players specifically cite the Templar cleanse as one of the class's major PvP advantages.

But cleansing damage/debuffs doesn't solve the larger problem:

You still have to catch the opponent.

Spearblade · August 11

I've said pretty much the same thing regarding the "house" design- it's pretty silly, but the Class Mastery choices did give me some hope- namely the ability of maintaining Sacred Ground with Solar Barrage. Granted, our Class Mastery shouldn't be spent solving a stupid problem to begin with, but it's a step forward...

Having a templar with persistent healing/buffs/damage AROUND them, is a cool design. Cleansing Ritual/Ritual of Retribution should absolutely be a circle that follows the Templar. This is cool as a kind of "front liner/paladin/general" vibe and plays vastly better vs just stacking circles and hoping enemies stand in it, or allies do. Rune Focus also shouldn't be a ground effect- granted, the turbo healing while standing in it is probably a bit much, but just take an average and make it follow you.

Also, Healing Ritual is a turd sandwich and I haven't seen anybody use it in...like...ever. Maybe it'd be useful if it was a HOT? Maybe?

Spearblade · August 11

ALSO, give both Jabs morphs Major Brutality. Seriously. And crank up the duration to 30 seconds, or better yet, while slotted. Sure, 99% of the time we are spamming Jabs pretty regularly, but you're literally forcing that playstyle with the low buff duration, or (more likely) forcing Brutality potions when you're coming out with all of these cool new alchemy effects...

Savagery on Sun Fire/Vamp Bane already sucks as it is, toss us a bone.

Thal · August 11

Upon further inspection, the Balanced Warrior change isn’t the end of the world if some tweaks can be made. In this case, the damage is in a high enough quantity to be fine versus the % in most instances.

With that said, I would request a slightly more forgiving calculation… say hit max at 30,000 combined. I don’t even run rune on PvE dps. It just feels weird to be at the mercy of other classes to hit max on a class passive… very odd.

Luneca · August 11

Using pure templar feels terrible because of the dated skills that aren't worth slotting IMO, so then I go subclass. But when subclassing, what skill line is actually worth using on templar?

With Dawn's Wrath getting an armor buff and all of the nerds to every single skill in the line, it's trash.

Restoring light I can swap out with Siphoning and get a resource return skill.

Aedric Spear -- well they've already covered jabs and why it's bad. Even with a 6K+ tool tip and stacked into damage on a pure glass build it's outclassed by nearly every other spec and just feels like garbage in an actual fight vs. even Bloodthirst.

Too many major buffs are missing or require you to actively cast a skill. This actually lowers DPS over an interval, and in a PvP situation having buff drops is the difference between life and death in many cases esp. with how high damage is.

On my templar I have to run 2H for brutality because I am NOT a stam templar, and even on one, the duration of the buff is far too short for me to actually use it in combat. What am I going to do, jab, roll twice and then jab the air to get the buff back?

That wasted time and opportunity to do something else -- an overarching theme in the class (and necromancer too) and why it sucks so bad in PvP.

That's on top of being slow, the gap closer being terrible with a delay attached to it that makes it unusable in certain cases when chasing, etc.

In 2026 there is no reason to be a templar when it's domain is overshadowed by nearly every class.

Damage? it sucks.

Tankiness? DK, Arcanist, Warden do it better.

Healing? Warden does it better. DK can do it better due to rework and the fact its keeping its damage buff. Arcanist shields can be better than healing, etc.

AND YET ZOS WANTS TO KEEP SELLING TEMPLAR AS A GROUP BUFFER WHEN OTHER OPTIONS ARE BETTER AND KEEP NERFING SOLO TEMPLAR?

Whoever is responsible for these changes to the class needs to explain to everyone exactly what their vision is. Because if it's group buffer spamming a stupid healing ult, then I can drop the class and delete all of my templars today.

The departure from the old set of rules was understood to me bettering classes when DK rework was released, instead everyone else has just been nerfed while the dev team chases some vision no one in-game actually wants.

gariondavey · August 11

Potl - reworked like curse to apply a set amount after 6 seconds, applies major and minor breach

Absolutely love the idea of extended ritual moving with the templar, front line paladin vibes

Having spell damage in a passive connected to your armor which is decreased in pvp doesn't seem fair

Also seriously, why does templar not have the ability to give more group buffs when it's identity is supposed to be a buffer? Maybe templar could get major heroism for the group.

acanca · August 11

Yeah if the intent for this was to be a buff i think it fails to deliver. In pve you are usually not reaching 25k resistances and in pvp your resistances will be reduced by several debuffs. So in effect this feels like a rework that pleases no one. I sit usually around 7k weapon damage whenever i play templar so this is at most 80 weapon damage buff that i can get at the best of times and most likely just a straight nerf because i cant reach the resistance cap

ceruulean · August 11

Also when templars lose Minor Sorcery, it means that YOU NEED A DK to provide the Minor Brutality buff to the party. So even if the new passive is a 80 spell damage buff to solo templar, it's still a party damage loss because templar does not give Minor Sorcery to the other DPS. Both DPS in a 4 man dungeon comp have lost a 10% buff unless you have a DK.

Also this new passive is just awful design from a balance perspective.

1) When should stacking ARMOR buff your DAMAGE? These two stats are supposed to be separate from each other. This is the same exact problem in Vengeance with having the Unleashed Fury skill that scales off armor. It leads to tanks having the same damage as DPS.

2) There is a cap of 500 damage. So this means that templar is NOT future proofed to whatever changes are made to wpn/spell damage. Instead of having a passive that scales by 6%, you have a hard cap.

The fact that there's a cap points back to #1, that correlating amor and damage is susceptible to abuse which is why there's a cap. If this mechanic can be abused and needs to be hard capped, WHY IMPLEMENT IT as a PASSIVE that goes on EVERY TEMPLAR in the game? Why not just give templars flat 500 damage? This would make the server calculations easier.

3) The passive misleads new players. Instead of encouraging new players to build for damage, now they have to decide whether to build armor or damage.

This is actually depressing. DK gets 10% crit damage buff tacked onto Earthen Heart skill line and free sustain and off balance from heavy. Meanwhile templars get confusion and hard caps.

To ZOS: STOP making the class CONFUSING to build and play. There is no reason it needs to be complicated.

Warden: How many status effects do I need to apply to deal damage?
DK: How many dots do I need to deal damage?
NB: How much crit damage do I need to deal damage?
Sorc: How much spell damage do I need to deal damage?
Templar: How much armor do I need to deal damage?

Do you hear DK, sorc, warden, and NB calculating, "How much armor do I need to deal damage?" Can you hear how ridiculous this sounds?

heaven13 · August 11

gariondavey wrote: »

Also seriously, why does templar not have the ability to give more group buffs when it's identity is supposed to be a buffer? Maybe templar could get major heroism for the group.

We can't have that. Wardens have Major Heroism. Wardens also get Major Mending, which was taken from templar back during the Morrowind patch (though I guess DK also gets it now too).

Luneca · August 11

heaven13 wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

Also seriously, why does templar not have the ability to give more group buffs when it's identity is supposed to be a buffer? Maybe templar could get major heroism for the group.

We can't have that. Wardens have Major Heroism. Wardens also get Major Mending, which was taken from templar back during the Morrowind patch (though I guess DK also gets it now too).

Yep Templars have been sucking since the introduction of warden and got nerfed to "make space" for necro and arcanist. Every skill in Dawn's Wrath has seen a nerf and no compensation for it. Think about how crazy that is.

ceruulean · August 11

I'm honestly nearly done with the devs. In both PvE and PvP, templar is forced to make sacrifices that other classes don't need to make. The slowest and longest setup+cast time class with low/bad/terrible sustain should do the HIGHEST damage when timed correctly. Like how necro does massive damage in trials but is clunky to play and suffers when the boss or players move. And even necros have more comfortable sustain and damage mitigation than templar, so they have room for error to setup again if they mess up.

Instead, we have speedy mobile classes like sorc doing the most burst and pressure damage. Why? As well as DK, tanky and easy to play class, doing more damage. Why? In Vengeance, NB does the most damage, has the best debuff and defensive capabilities, Minor Evasion to mitigate AoEs (INCLUDING JABS) that reveal cloak, and sustain, with instant cast skills and undodgable CC. Why?

Literally this class DPS sucks in all of PvE and PvP game modes and is only viable in PvE to be a support slave for +300 damage to group, and because bosses have millions of HP so even if the execute was nerfed due to subclassing and PvP complaints to be useless and start at 28%, it deals decent damage on PvE bosses who don't dodge or block, and you have healers to heal you while vulnerable.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 11

ceruulean wrote: »

I'm honestly nearly done with the devs. In both PvE and PvP, templar is forced to make sacrifices that other classes don't need to make. The slowest and longest setup+cast time class with low/bad/terrible sustain should do the HIGHEST damage when timed correctly. Like how necro does massive damage in trials but is clunky to play and suffers when the boss or players move. And even necros have more comfortable sustain and damage mitigation than templar, so they have room for error to setup again if they mess up.

Instead, we have speedy mobile classes like sorc doing the most burst and pressure damage. Why? As well as DK, tanky and easy to play class, doing more damage. Why? In Vengeance, NB does the most damage, has the best debuff and defensive capabilities, Minor Evasion to mitigate AoEs (INCLUDING JABS) that reveal cloak, and sustain, with instant cast skills and undodgable CC. Why?

Literally this class DPS sucks in all of PvE and PvP game modes and is only viable in PvE to be a support slave for +300 damage to group, and because bosses have millions of HP so even if the execute was nerfed due to subclassing and PvP complaints to be useless and start at 28%, it deals decent damage on PvE bosses who don't dodge or block, and you have healers to heal you while vulnerable.

It is depressing. They won't listen to anyone when it comes to Templar and they refuse to address anything that has to do with Templar.

Their solution to the Templar class losing minor sorcery is let's change a perfectly good passive and make the damage gained tied to your current Armor value, instead of finding better ways to make up for the loss in value.

They have to know that in PVE, majority of players will never reach cap to get the best value and in PVP players will consistently have lowered damage values due to constant Armor debuffs.
It's a lose lose situation....

madmufffin · August 11

gariondavey wrote: »

Potl - reworked like curse to apply a set amount after 6 seconds, applies major and minor breach

Absolutely love the idea of extended ritual moving with the templar, front line paladin vibes

Having spell damage in a passive connected to your armor which is decreased in pvp doesn't seem fair

Also seriously, why does templar not have the ability to give more group buffs when it's identity is supposed to be a buffer? Maybe templar could get major heroism for the group.

ESO is the only game where the templar class is neither paladin or priest. Just a combo of the worst aspects of both. No buffs, shields, debuffs, good damage, etc. Just a healer with heals and nothing else.

Militan1404 · August 11

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark.
And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg??

Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

Firstmep · August 11

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Militan1404 · August 11

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

Firstmep · August 11

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

You are getting 3k armor and up to 500 flat spd to replace those modifiers. We still keep the 6% increased armor. Reaching 34k armor next patch shouldn't be much of an issue and that will keep you at the 500 cap even with major and minor breach.
Multiple ppl have done the math and I myself have tested it with actual same setups to compare live vs pts and its definitely a buff in most cases except some very organized pve endgame groups where supports feed you a ton of flat spd already and have low resistances.
If you were building like 7-8k spd before with like imperial as race and let's say 25k resist in medium armor, it's still a small buff, but ofc you will want to make sure to reach 34k resist for pvp.

I already run with 33k resists on live because it feels better to have 2.2k + regens with wretched than run rallying and have to run sustain food etc.
But that's just my preference ofc, I mainly play bgs so the extra sustain helps to disengage/reset fights.

Wretched with like 23k stam and 20k mag feels like dk level sustain often.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 11

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

You are getting 3k armor and up to 500 flat spd to replace those modifiers. We still keep the 6% increased armor. Reaching 34k armor next patch shouldn't be much of an issue and that will keep you at the 500 cap even with major and minor breach.
Multiple ppl have done the math and I myself have tested it with actual same setups to compare live vs pts and its definitely a buff in most cases except some very organized pve endgame groups where supports feed you a ton of flat spd already and have low resistances.
If you were building like 7-8k spd before with like imperial as race and let's say 25k resist in medium armor, it's still a small buff, but ofc you will want to make sure to reach 34k resist for pvp.

I already run with 33k resists on live because it feels better to have 2.2k + regens with wretched than run rallying and have to run sustain food etc.
But that's just my preference ofc, I mainly play bgs so the extra sustain helps to disengage/reset fights.

Wretched with like 23k stam and 20k mag feels like dk level sustain often.

So essentially, Templar is more or less locked into a specific playstyle to be competent? Sets like Wretched are going to be a requirement for sustain while building into heavy armor.

This doesn't give a whole lot of diversity. Aetheric Lancer is still an RNG mini game series and investing into heavy armor further debilitates mobility.

I am not against new ideas, but things need to change for Templars state, more so than ever considering the class refresh is at minimum a year away now...

Militan1404 · August 11

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

You are getting 3k armor and up to 500 flat spd to replace those modifiers. We still keep the 6% increased armor. Reaching 34k armor next patch shouldn't be much of an issue and that will keep you at the 500 cap even with major and minor breach.
Multiple ppl have done the math and I myself have tested it with actual same setups to compare live vs pts and its definitely a buff in most cases except some very organized pve endgame groups where supports feed you a ton of flat spd already and have low resistances.
If you were building like 7-8k spd before with like imperial as race and let's say 25k resist in medium armor, it's still a small buff, but ofc you will want to make sure to reach 34k resist for pvp.

I already run with 33k resists on live because it feels better to have 2.2k + regens with wretched than run rallying and have to run sustain food etc.
But that's just my preference ofc, I mainly play bgs so the extra sustain helps to disengage/reset fights.

Wretched with like 23k stam and 20k mag feels like dk level sustain often.

Right now i have 7157 spell dmg on my templar if i turn of balanced warrior and illuminate i have 5593 wepon and spell dmg, if i get 500 extra wep and spell dmg from new illuminate as long as nobody debuffs me and i manage to stay in above armor cap i would still be 1000 wep and spell dmg short. Still sounds like a nerf to me

Edit. When i turn of illminate i lose 600 wepon and spell dmg from bright harbinger so i would really just be about 400 but more if i get debuffed. But if i have a dk in group i would be better than before as long as i dont get debuffed, right?

Firstmep · August 11

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

You are getting 3k armor and up to 500 flat spd to replace those modifiers. We still keep the 6% increased armor. Reaching 34k armor next patch shouldn't be much of an issue and that will keep you at the 500 cap even with major and minor breach.
Multiple ppl have done the math and I myself have tested it with actual same setups to compare live vs pts and its definitely a buff in most cases except some very organized pve endgame groups where supports feed you a ton of flat spd already and have low resistances.
If you were building like 7-8k spd before with like imperial as race and let's say 25k resist in medium armor, it's still a small buff, but ofc you will want to make sure to reach 34k resist for pvp.

I already run with 33k resists on live because it feels better to have 2.2k + regens with wretched than run rallying and have to run sustain food etc.
But that's just my preference ofc, I mainly play bgs so the extra sustain helps to disengage/reset fights.

Wretched with like 23k stam and 20k mag feels like dk level sustain often.

So essentially, Templar is more or less locked into a specific playstyle to be competent? Sets like Wretched are going to be a requirement for sustain while building into heavy armor.

This doesn't give a whole lot of diversity. Aetheric Lancer is still an RNG mini game series and investing into heavy armor further debilitates mobility.

I am not against new ideas, but things need to change for Templars state, more so than ever considering the class refresh is at minimum a year away now...

I don't run heavy on my plar, but again, Nord.
But yes it does kinda funnel you into wanting to build armor, and I get a lot of plars prefer big spell damage playstyle. I'm still on the tanky with procs bandwagon for my plar, most of our skills are terrible damage in pvp anyway.
Maarselok alone is usually my second highest damage in any fight.

twing1_ · August 12

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

You are getting 3k armor and up to 500 flat spd to replace those modifiers. We still keep the 6% increased armor. Reaching 34k armor next patch shouldn't be much of an issue and that will keep you at the 500 cap even with major and minor breach.
Multiple ppl have done the math and I myself have tested it with actual same setups to compare live vs pts and its definitely a buff in most cases except some very organized pve endgame groups where supports feed you a ton of flat spd already and have low resistances.
If you were building like 7-8k spd before with like imperial as race and let's say 25k resist in medium armor, it's still a small buff, but ofc you will want to make sure to reach 34k resist for pvp.

I already run with 33k resists on live because it feels better to have 2.2k + regens with wretched than run rallying and have to run sustain food etc.
But that's just my preference ofc, I mainly play bgs so the extra sustain helps to disengage/reset fights.

Wretched with like 23k stam and 20k mag feels like dk level sustain often.

Right now i have 7157 spell dmg on my templar if i turn of balanced warrior and illuminate i have 5593 wepon and spell dmg, if i get 500 extra wep and spell dmg from new illuminate as long as nobody debuffs me and i manage to stay in above armor cap i would still be 1000 wep and spell dmg short. Still sounds like a nerf to me

Edit. When i turn of illminate i lose 600 wepon and spell dmg from bright harbinger so i would really just be about 400 but more if i get debuffed. But if i have a dk in group i would be better than before as long as i dont get debuffed, right?

Not sure what build you are running so I'm not positive about the weapon and spell damage modifiers you have, but simply losing 600 weapon damage from turning Bright Harbinger off shouldn't lose you over 1500 weapon/spell damage, even with minor brutality and the 6% balanced warrior. You are turning something else off too, as it is currently impossible to gain a weapon/spell damage modifier of over 2.0.

For reference, my heavy armor templar build has 6742 spell/weapon damage on live with minor sorcery and 6% balanced warrior active.

On the PTS, this drops down to 6581 without minor sorcery and with the new balanced warrior (flat bonus of 500, major/minor breach proof because I have over 34k resistances). That's a loss of ~160 weapon damage, and a gain of 2974 armor. One 2-4 pc item set bonus of 129 spell/weapon damage, after modifiers, turns into 158 spell/weapon damage on the tooltip, so its almost perfectly a lateral move from one set bonus of spell/weapon damage to one set bonus of resistance, even after I've lost minor sorcery.

This isn't the end of the world nerf that people on this forum are making it out to be. The flat weapon/spell damage offered by the new balanced warrior is able to be increased substantially by weapon/spell damage modifiers, while the old 6% balanced warrior acted as a modifier itself so was not nearly as potent. In almost all Templar builds, the new balanced warrior is actually a substantial buff to the old balanced warrior, and especially on high resistance builds.

This change is definitely a good change. It doesn't quite completely make up for the loss of minor sorcery, but the devs have stated that they are aware of this and are unfortunately waiting for the rest of the Templar rework to address this.

In the meantime, Templar doesn't seem to have lost much viability, even after the loss of minor sorcery.

It does encourage Templar players to build tankier, but this seems to be in line with ZOS's intention for the class as the masters of defense.

This change does put a limit on the offensive ceiling of the class, but it also makes it so that Templars aren't punished as severely for building into defense or sustain as the other classes. This allows them to run sets like wretched vitality for sustain, or mara's balm for defense with relative ease by removing a lot of the opportunity cost associated with them. Where other classes would have to forgo a large amount of offense to wear these sets, Templar is currently being propped up by a free, flat bonus of 500 to spell/weapon damage to make the move to heavy armor.

The old balanced warrior (6% spell/weapon damage) required that a templar reach large amounts of spell/weapon damage to take full advantage of, which pigeonholed templars into building damage into their kit wherever they could if they wanted to secure kills. Even doing this would yield a relatively low damage output in comparison to other classes, which was frustrating for a lot of players. Now, we at least have the ability to build defensively and run truly tanky builds while still reaching similar levels of offensive power.

As I said in another thread:

Its similar to how the DK toolkit addresses the sustain issue which frees them up to build more freely into offense, though Templar's kit props up their offense when built defensively. That being said, I do believe that DK is still overtuned and needs adjusting, and Templars are more working their way back toward viability.

Its a change in the right direction, IMO.

Jabbs_Giggity · August 12

@twing1_ I get what youre trying to say, the changes may help for Templar to build more tanks as a solo. However, it seems like there is a lot of areas unaddressed and where the Templar will get pushed further to the bottom, if that's even possible...

Class Rework aside, as it won't happen for at least a year.

Templar is going to be forced into a build tanky and do okay damage, with a ceiling...This is like forcing Templar into being the worst tank because it already has the worst tanking utility, and now has nearly no group utility.

I don't see how this is a "healthy" direction for Templar. Players have been screaming from the rooftops for nearly a decade to drop the "house" design and make Templar a Mobile Home. This direction is further pigeontoeing Templar into a stationary tank that can't tank.
With how fast paced combat is, both PVP and PvE, no one is going to willingly come into a Templar prison that doesn't die for funsies...

Militan1404 · August 12

twing1_ wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

Is its really? I am not a big numbers guy but templar is losing 16% wepon and spell dmg, does it really give more than that? Also with dmg getting nerfed every time another player gives you minor and major breach and all the unnamed armor debuffs and even sorc now thats one of most popular pvp classes has his ovn unnamed armor debuffs. Is it really still stronger then 16% epon and spell dmg? Hope your right tho but still seems like a nerf.

You are getting 3k armor and up to 500 flat spd to replace those modifiers. We still keep the 6% increased armor. Reaching 34k armor next patch shouldn't be much of an issue and that will keep you at the 500 cap even with major and minor breach.
Multiple ppl have done the math and I myself have tested it with actual same setups to compare live vs pts and its definitely a buff in most cases except some very organized pve endgame groups where supports feed you a ton of flat spd already and have low resistances.
If you were building like 7-8k spd before with like imperial as race and let's say 25k resist in medium armor, it's still a small buff, but ofc you will want to make sure to reach 34k resist for pvp.

I already run with 33k resists on live because it feels better to have 2.2k + regens with wretched than run rallying and have to run sustain food etc.
But that's just my preference ofc, I mainly play bgs so the extra sustain helps to disengage/reset fights.

Wretched with like 23k stam and 20k mag feels like dk level sustain often.

Right now i have 7157 spell dmg on my templar if i turn of balanced warrior and illuminate i have 5593 wepon and spell dmg, if i get 500 extra wep and spell dmg from new illuminate as long as nobody debuffs me and i manage to stay in above armor cap i would still be 1000 wep and spell dmg short. Still sounds like a nerf to me

Edit. When i turn of illminate i lose 600 wepon and spell dmg from bright harbinger so i would really just be about 400 but more if i get debuffed. But if i have a dk in group i would be better than before as long as i dont get debuffed, right?

Not sure what build you are running so I'm not positive about the weapon and spell damage modifiers you have, but simply losing 600 weapon damage from turning Bright Harbinger off shouldn't lose you over 1500 weapon/spell damage, even with minor brutality and the 6% balanced warrior. You are turning something else off too, as it is currently impossible to gain a weapon/spell damage modifier of over 2.0.

For reference, my heavy armor templar build has 6742 spell/weapon damage on live with minor sorcery and 6% balanced warrior active.

On the PTS, this drops down to 6581 without minor sorcery and with the new balanced warrior (flat bonus of 500, major/minor breach proof because I have over 34k resistances). That's a loss of ~160 weapon damage, and a gain of 2974 armor. One 2-4 pc item set bonus of 129 spell/weapon damage, after modifiers, turns into 158 spell/weapon damage on the tooltip, so its almost perfectly a lateral move from one set bonus of spell/weapon damage to one set bonus of resistance, even after I've lost minor sorcery.

This isn't the end of the world nerf that people on this forum are making it out to be. The flat weapon/spell damage offered by the new balanced warrior is able to be increased substantially by weapon/spell damage modifiers, while the old 6% balanced warrior acted as a modifier itself so was not nearly as potent. In almost all Templar builds, the new balanced warrior is actually a substantial buff to the old balanced warrior, and especially on high resistance builds.

This change is definitely a good change. It doesn't quite completely make up for the loss of minor sorcery, but the devs have stated that they are aware of this and are unfortunately waiting for the rest of the Templar rework to address this.

In the meantime, Templar doesn't seem to have lost much viability, even after the loss of minor sorcery.

It does encourage Templar players to build tankier, but this seems to be in line with ZOS's intention for the class as the masters of defense.

This change does put a limit on the offensive ceiling of the class, but it also makes it so that Templars aren't punished as severely for building into defense or sustain as the other classes. This allows them to run sets like wretched vitality for sustain, or mara's balm for defense with relative ease by removing a lot of the opportunity cost associated with them. Where other classes would have to forgo a large amount of offense to wear these sets, Templar is currently being propped up by a free, flat bonus of 500 to spell/weapon damage to make the move to heavy armor.

The old balanced warrior (6% spell/weapon damage) required that a templar reach large amounts of spell/weapon damage to take full advantage of, which pigeonholed templars into building damage into their kit wherever they could if they wanted to secure kills. Even doing this would yield a relatively low damage output in comparison to other classes, which was frustrating for a lot of players. Now, we at least have the ability to build defensively and run truly tanky builds while still reaching similar levels of offensive power.

As I said in another thread:

Its similar to how the DK toolkit addresses the sustain issue which frees them up to build more freely into offense, though Templar's kit props up their offense when built defensively. That being said, I do believe that DK is still overtuned and needs adjusting, and Templars are more working their way back toward viability.

Its a change in the right direction, IMO.

Well thats what i got, both are buffed with torch mytich and same buffs both times. Gonna double check it later to be 100% sure i did it right when i tried.
I must confess i like the idea of it if its really working, always wanted to do a templar with sword and board for that paladin look that actually does dmg, that might be achievable in the future if this is the rute they are going with it.

Now i tried it again and with out balanced warrior and illuminate 5463 wep and spell dmg and with them i get 7009 spell dmg and 6516 wep dmg, so i lose 1546 spell dmg. First time i tried i had camo hunter slotted thats why the dmg change by about 100 wep and spell dmg more the first time i tried.

Nemesis7884 · August 12

Firstmep wrote: »

Militan1404 wrote: »

If they really insist on making templar as it do more dmg the more armor it has they should add minor resolve to living dark. And they should add the new armor/dmg buff on top of the extra 6% wep and spell dmg on balanced warrior, as templars allready lost 10% wep and spell dmg from illuminate and 6% from balanced warrior for what 500 wep amd spell dmg?? Its kind of worrisome for the future of the games that the combat team nerfs the dmg two times in a row for the class that stuggles the most on that department and they think that they are buffing it by doing it.. it just proves how out of touch they are from their own game, and the combat team we have now just aint capable of balancing the game.

The change to Balanced Warrior is a buff in most cases, as in you get more overall stats than before. Not a massive one mind you. And compared to dk which has insane tool tips and like 17 different % modifiers this change feels like pittance.

A minimal buff within an overall big nerf...so 3 steps back and 1 ahead is now considered a win?

Turtle_Bot · August 12

ZOS should definitely keep the base 3/6% weapon damage on balanced warrior and add the weapon damage based on armor on top of this, with maybe a higher cap so it has more value in PvP where armor is generally higher, the adjustment to illuminate was really felt, and debuffs that hurt this change like breach are extremely common.

Ardriel · August 12

Huh??? On live I got 18264 spell res and 17538 phys res with rune active (major resolve) and fortified cp.
Wearing 6x med and 1 light armor.
I have 4734 weapon damage. Sets: Perf Null Arca, 2 charged daggers, 1x slime and Archiv set.
How can you get 25k armor + more than 7k weapon damage??
Can someone please explain to me what I'm doing wrong? Or what I'm misunderstanding?

Firstmep · August 12

Ardriel wrote: »

Huh??? On live I got 18264 spell res and 17538 phys res with rune active (major resolve) and fortified cp.
Wearing 6x med and 1 light armor.
I have 4734 weapon damage. Sets: Perf Null Arca, 2 charged daggers, 1x slime and Archiv set.
How can you get 25k armor + more than 7k weapon damage??
Can someone please explain to me what I'm doing wrong? Or what I'm misunderstanding?

Resolving vigor adds 3k, reinforced heavy chest adds almost as much, if you are nord that's another 2.6k, light piece should be sash since it has the lowest value anyway.
Keep in mind templar has a 6% increase to armor so the more flat you get the more it increases overall. Nirnhoned main hand for dual wield, likely bright harbinger, major sorcery etc all active maybe even weapon damage glyph.

Ardriel · August 12

Firstmep wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Huh??? On live I got 18264 spell res and 17538 phys res with rune active (major resolve) and fortified cp.
Wearing 6x med and 1 light armor.
I have 4734 weapon damage. Sets: Perf Null Arca, 2 charged daggers, 1x slime and Archiv set.
How can you get 25k armor + more than 7k weapon damage??
Can someone please explain to me what I'm doing wrong? Or what I'm misunderstanding?

Resolving vigor adds 3k, reinforced heavy chest adds almost as much, if you are nord that's another 2.6k, light piece should be sash since it has the lowest value anyway.
Keep in mind templar has a 6% increase to armor so the more flat you get the more it increases overall. Nirnhoned main hand for dual wield, likely bright harbinger, major sorcery etc all active maybe even weapon damage glyph.

Who wears heavy armor in pve and plays nord??

Nemesis7884 · August 12

Ardriel wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Huh??? On live I got 18264 spell res and 17538 phys res with rune active (major resolve) and fortified cp.
Wearing 6x med and 1 light armor.
I have 4734 weapon damage. Sets: Perf Null Arca, 2 charged daggers, 1x slime and Archiv set.
How can you get 25k armor + more than 7k weapon damage??
Can someone please explain to me what I'm doing wrong? Or what I'm misunderstanding?

Resolving vigor adds 3k, reinforced heavy chest adds almost as much, if you are nord that's another 2.6k, light piece should be sash since it has the lowest value anyway.
Keep in mind templar has a 6% increase to armor so the more flat you get the more it increases overall. Nirnhoned main hand for dual wield, likely bright harbinger, major sorcery etc all active maybe even weapon damage glyph.

Who wears heavy armor in pve and plays nord??

Hey its a buff if you completely change your build and nerf yourself on other aspects like traits, racial passives where you loose 250 wpn dmge etc... lol

Ardriel · August 12

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Huh??? On live I got 18264 spell res and 17538 phys res with rune active (major resolve) and fortified cp.
Wearing 6x med and 1 light armor.
I have 4734 weapon damage. Sets: Perf Null Arca, 2 charged daggers, 1x slime and Archiv set.
How can you get 25k armor + more than 7k weapon damage??
Can someone please explain to me what I'm doing wrong? Or what I'm misunderstanding?

Resolving vigor adds 3k, reinforced heavy chest adds almost as much, if you are nord that's another 2.6k, light piece should be sash since it has the lowest value anyway.
Keep in mind templar has a 6% increase to armor so the more flat you get the more it increases overall. Nirnhoned main hand for dual wield, likely bright harbinger, major sorcery etc all active maybe even weapon damage glyph.

Who wears heavy armor in pve and plays nord??

Hey its a buff if you completely change your build amd nerf yourselfon other aspects like traits, racial passives whwre you loose 250 lol

wow ... yeah... what a buff