Why aren’t we given 1 class mastery when only subclassing 1 skill line?

nb_rich · August 8

Makes no sense we do not get 1 class mastery for having 2/3 class skill lines.

The four original classes are not set up like the new ones with each skill line playing a role, and after the DK refresh its safe to say the original classes will not adapt to that skill line set up.

With that being said the original classes require multiple skill lines to be equipped to keep its identity in some way. For example Templar spammable and execute are on two different skill lines. If we were to replace only restoring light we are losing 2 masteries which is a drastic dps loss, especially since the other 2 Templar skill lines do not provide the best passives. This just leads to any of the original classes choosing to subclass to use either Harold of the Tome, Assassination, or both.

This also has a impact on the class sets. Class sets are usually activated by skills/passives. For the new classes this has no impact since their skill lines are already separated by dps, healer and tank. You can use sets like corpse burster or spattering disjunction while subclassed (i use them while subclassed) since the main skill lines activating these are the dps skill lines that will not be replaced. The original classes have to be pure to use the class sets unless you want to drop some of your best skills/passives. If I want to use Aethric Lancer while subclassed I most likely have to drop my execute since the set requires Aedric Spear skill line to work. The only option to replace Dawns Wrath that makes sense is Assassination. Another example would also apply to the Nightblades Soulcleaver set that requires the siphoning skill lines to work. No one is dropping Assassination as a Nightblade, leaving the only option when subclassing to replace Shadow with Harold of the Tome. Replacing it with any other class is a massive dps loss since you’re losing both class masteries. Giving us 1 mastery helps with this issue.

Hopefully this is addressed.

ceruulean · August 8

Pure class is stronger than subclass with 3 offense lines, and those subclassed builds sacrificed other stats to achieve 180k damage. Now pure classes do 180k damage yet keeps their defensive utility. If you only subclass 1 line, you get the worst of both worlds: no specialization and no class masteries.

Sephyr · August 8

It's not an issue because it's a system designed for pure classes. That's why they're called Class Masteries because they're an investment INTO your original class. With Subclassing you're investing into one skill line per class, thus you're not a master over that class.

The devs designed them this way because they wanted to lessen the gap between subclassed builds and pure classes as various builds were outperforming pure classes far and wide. There's nothing to be addressed aside from future balancing.

Renato90085 · August 8

it just other U46 again,only 1~2 build can play.
give up a suck healer/tank line and swap a dps line is dps buff,so play just must skack more dps line in this subclass system
few build like nb or necro run arc line and use one OP class mastery,the build better than all builds ,and bis build dps cap maybe can hit 250k up.
what next,pure class suck again so zos should add more buff pure class system again?

CatalinaWineMixer2 · August 8

No one should be able to run 3 skill lines of one kind. Period. Class Mastery Passives have to be there because it's the only way to stop more people from leaving the game since U46 absolutely destroyed our characters and playstyles we have had for a decade. Subclassing is a complete and utter disaster. Its so bad they literally have to change and alter every skill line and Class/character over the course of YEARS because its that broken. Instead of just admitting what a disaster and player exodus they have, are still causing and will continue to cause because they can no longer deliver refreshes on any kind of sane timetable. It is faster to remove it in a single patch, just like it was put in and adjust the Dragonknight to match the six other Classes. Then balance them with the Class Passives in a single update. Instead of 2030 and beyond.

Aylish · August 8

Class Masteries are meant for people with pure class. That‘s it.

Luneca · August 9

Because ZOS doesn't understand that what made subclassing popular was that fact that it allowed flexibility -- something that class masteries cannot replicate. Let's be honest, on most of the bottom classes (esp. in PvP) most of the skills are either unslottable or they do too little to justify slotting them.

Some classes don't even have a reliable way to get major prophecy on both bars using 1 slottable skill, missing proper access to buffs on demand, etc.

Subclassing gives us the option to remove a skill line and fix those issues, since ZOS isn't interested in actually doing so for every class or buffing the generic sources of these buffs. Maybe they will in some future that may never come, but no one cares about a maybe -- we care about the now and what is definite.

What that means is that the mastery system actually works against the players on the classes with lacking skill lines and ultimately offers nothing.

Templar is one of the better examples in PvP. You can get masteries, but they offer little to nothing that templar didn't already have enough of, and in an actual combat situation make little difference except when running in a group. Certainly not as much difference as subclassing.

Templar healer: actually lacks enough healing -- crazy statement, but reality. Compared to warden, templar healer is inferior in every way and has been for a long time. It doesn't help that restoration staff is a lackluster skill line outside of its ult, and that beyond sticky HoT stacking none of the skills are used by the majority of players wielding one. If it didn't give increased magicka back, I wonder how many would even slot it?

There is no universe where I would take two masteries over warden subclass, which gives me more skills to slot, minor toughness, and more major mending uptime in addition to Tree Ult (which I consider better than templar's healing ult). Oh and there's Lotus Blossom to alleviate the crit issue templars have

Subclassing alleviates the issue the class has with skills that simply aren't slottable and missing buffs. If you want to currently use the masteries -- which are the excuse for not buffing up skill lines immediately on classes that are behind in either PvP or PvE -- then you have to give that up and actually lose out more in reality than you could potentailly gain.

Now ZOS is also nerfing templar by changing minor prophecy to a resistance buff. This esentially makes the skill line not worth slotting at all in PvP or solo contexts unless ZOS immediately adjusts the skill line to compensate for it. Templar's "Dawn Wrath" skill line has already been nerfed to the point that it's mainly a tank line in my eyes than a damage one, and with the changes to the passive, there's no reason for me to bother with the skill line.

TLDR: So let's recap

1. ZOS releases subclassing

2. Subclassing alleviates problems with classes like templar that have issues in PvP (though I also don't run a pure templar in PvE when I am solo). I can get on-demand buffs that the class is missing that can result in a victory or defeat.

3. For whatever reason, ZOS decides to buff "pure classes" but forgot that not all pure classes are equal and some literally have unslottable skills because they offer no real utility or value, even vs. scribed ones.

4. The restriction is applied and the classes that have issues are told to wait some time in the future for an "update" that has no real time table, has been pushed back. It essentially means that for anyone not willing to run the original terrible skill lines on a class like templar, you aren't getting buffed even though ZOS themselves acknowledges these classes all need a buff after DK

You cannot make up how bad balance is in the game, and how it's becoming worse because the dev team simply does not understand player behavior. Instead of listening to a player that wants to restrict players like the person above that has a vendetta against subclassing for some reason, let players embrace freedom. At least until you actually rework these classes.

The game is supposed to be about fun, yet in PvE I'm stuck with the same boring combinations from over 10 years ago s a pure class, and in PvP I just have to fight an uphill battle against a DK that wins by a landslide.

Exactly how this is viewed as good balance or even engaging by anyone on the development team is baffling. I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't enjoy pure classing before subclassing and would just swap classes half the time because the pure classes I use most both suck in PvP.

And I feel the compensation for pure classing is inadequate, especially on templar. It could be a different story if scribing were a better system and expanded upon, but no. That's not happening; instead what we get told is to wait for a rework years down the line.

The situation is terrible, but it does not have to be this way. It is this way because someone wants it to be. And that's the ultimate insult to anyone playing the game and disappointed with balance at any level.

nb_rich · August 9

Aylish wrote: »

Class Masteries are meant for people with pure class. That‘s it.

There are multiple stages for being a Vampire from my understanding. No matter what stage you’re at your considered a vampire.

If someone has 2 skill lines from the same class they should be considered that class, and still get 1 mastery.

Vaqual · August 9

Luneca wrote: »

Because ZOS doesn't understand that what made subclassing popular was that fact that it allowed flexibility -- something that class masteries cannot replicate. Let's be honest, on most of the bottom classes (esp. in PvP) most of the skills are either unslottable or they do too little to justify slotting them.

Some classes don't even have a reliable way to get major prophecy on both bars using 1 slottable skill, missing proper access to buffs on demand, etc.

Subclassing gives us the option to remove a skill line and fix those issues, since ZOS isn't interested in actually doing so for every class or buffing the generic sources of these buffs. Maybe they will in some future that may never come, but no one cares about a maybe -- we care about the now and what is definite.

What that means is that the mastery system actually works against the players on the classes with lacking skill lines and ultimately offers nothing.

Templar is one of the better examples in PvP. You can get masteries, but they offer little to nothing that templar didn't already have enough of, and in an actual combat situation make little difference except when running in a group. Certainly not as much difference as subclassing.

Templar healer: actually lacks enough healing -- crazy statement, but reality. Compared to warden, templar healer is inferior in every way and has been for a long time. It doesn't help that restoration staff is a lackluster skill line outside of its ult, and that beyond sticky HoT stacking none of the skills are used by the majority of players wielding one. If it didn't give increased magicka back, I wonder how many would even slot it?

There is no universe where I would take two masteries over warden subclass, which gives me more skills to slot, minor toughness, and more major mending uptime in addition to Tree Ult (which I consider better than templar's healing ult). Oh and there's Lotus Blossom to alleviate the crit issue templars have

Subclassing alleviates the issue the class has with skills that simply aren't slottable and missing buffs. If you want to currently use the masteries -- which are the excuse for not buffing up skill lines immediately on classes that are behind in either PvP or PvE -- then you have to give that up and actually lose out more in reality than you could potentailly gain.

Now ZOS is also nerfing templar by changing minor prophecy to a resistance buff. This esentially makes the skill line not worth slotting at all in PvP or solo contexts unless ZOS immediately adjusts the skill line to compensate for it. Templar's "Dawn Wrath" skill line has already been nerfed to the point that it's mainly a tank line in my eyes than a damage one, and with the changes to the passive, there's no reason for me to bother with the skill line.

TLDR: So let's recap

1. ZOS releases subclassing

2. Subclassing alleviates problems with classes like templar that have issues in PvP (though I also don't run a pure templar in PvE when I am solo). I can get on-demand buffs that the class is missing that can result in a victory or defeat.

3. For whatever reason, ZOS decides to buff "pure classes" but forgot that not all pure classes are equal and some literally have unslottable skills because they offer no real utility or value, even vs. scribed ones.

4. The restriction is applied and the classes that have issues are told to wait some time in the future for an "update" that has no real time table, has been pushed back. It essentially means that for anyone not willing to run the original terrible skill lines on a class like templar, you aren't getting buffed even though ZOS themselves acknowledges these classes all need a buff after DK

You cannot make up how bad balance is in the game, and how it's becoming worse because the dev team simply does not understand player behavior. Instead of listening to a player that wants to restrict players like the person above that has a vendetta against subclassing for some reason, let players embrace freedom. At least until you actually rework these classes.

The game is supposed to be about fun, yet in PvE I'm stuck with the same boring combinations from over 10 years ago s a pure class, and in PvP I just have to fight an uphill battle against a DK that wins by a landslide.

Exactly how this is viewed as good balance or even engaging by anyone on the development team is baffling. I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't enjoy pure classing before subclassing and would just swap classes half the time because the pure classes I use most both suck in PvP.

And I feel the compensation for pure classing is inadequate, especially on templar. It could be a different story if scribing were a better system and expanded upon, but no. That's not happening; instead what we get told is to wait for a rework years down the line.

The situation is terrible, but it does not have to be this way. It is this way because someone wants it to be. And that's the ultimate insult to anyone playing the game and disappointed with balance at any level.

This is the class rework paradoxon.

Scenario 1: A handful of skill lines have a great advantage over others and overshadow pure classes and most other subclass combinations --> "Unacceptable evil, can not be fixed by adjusting skill lines, class masteries must invalidate subclassing in its entirety"

Scenario 2: A handful of classes have a great advantage over others and completely outperform others by a large mathematically evident margin --> "Don't worry bro, reworks will fix it by adjusting other classes, just 2 more years, I promise it's fine actually, wait your turn nerds"

They made Shivering Isles so immersive they started extending into real life.

Sephyr · 2:17AM

nb_rich wrote: »

Aylish wrote: »

Class Masteries are meant for people with pure class. That‘s it.

There are multiple stages for being a Vampire from my understanding. No matter what stage you’re at your considered a vampire.

If someone has 2 skill lines from the same class they should be considered that class, and still get 1 mastery.

No, they shouldn't. Unless you're actively pure classing, you're not a master of that class. It's an investment solely into a pure class. The moment you dip your toes out, you're not a pure class. There's nothing to be considered.

You either roll pure class if you want them, or subclass. There's no in between.

Edited addendum; Vampirism isn't considered a class mechanically. It's a state of the player character and a world skill line. Two completely different, and irrelevant, things. The same with werewolf.

Regardless, this isn't likely to happen as the devs stated exactly why they wouldn't in the patch notes. I encourage you to read them.

Zyaneth_Bal · 1:09PM

nb_rich wrote: »

Aylish wrote: »

Class Masteries are meant for people with pure class. That‘s it.

There are multiple stages for being a Vampire from my understanding. No matter what stage you’re at your considered a vampire.

If someone has 2 skill lines from the same class they should be considered that class, and still get 1 mastery.

Absolutely illogical take

ceruulean · 1:10PM

Devs nerfed pure classes because of subclassing. Templar execute was nerfed to start later, and arcanist sustain was nerfed. Guess which classes are underperforming in PvP?

Zyaneth_Bal · 1:16PM

Luneca wrote: »

Because ZOS doesn't understand that what made subclassing popular was that fact that it allowed flexibility -- something that class masteries cannot replicate. Let's be honest, on most of the bottom classes (esp. in PvP) most of the skills are either unslottable or they do too little to justify slotting them.

Some classes don't even have a reliable way to get major prophecy on both bars using 1 slottable skill, missing proper access to buffs on demand, etc.

Subclassing gives us the option to remove a skill line and fix those issues, since ZOS isn't interested in actually doing so for every class or buffing the generic sources of these buffs. Maybe they will in some future that may never come, but no one cares about a maybe -- we care about the now and what is definite.

What that means is that the mastery system actually works against the players on the classes with lacking skill lines and ultimately offers nothing.

Templar is one of the better examples in PvP. You can get masteries, but they offer little to nothing that templar didn't already have enough of, and in an actual combat situation make little difference except when running in a group. Certainly not as much difference as subclassing.

Templar healer: actually lacks enough healing -- crazy statement, but reality. Compared to warden, templar healer is inferior in every way and has been for a long time. It doesn't help that restoration staff is a lackluster skill line outside of its ult, and that beyond sticky HoT stacking none of the skills are used by the majority of players wielding one. If it didn't give increased magicka back, I wonder how many would even slot it?

There is no universe where I would take two masteries over warden subclass, which gives me more skills to slot, minor toughness, and more major mending uptime in addition to Tree Ult (which I consider better than templar's healing ult). Oh and there's Lotus Blossom to alleviate the crit issue templars have

Subclassing alleviates the issue the class has with skills that simply aren't slottable and missing buffs. If you want to currently use the masteries -- which are the excuse for not buffing up skill lines immediately on classes that are behind in either PvP or PvE -- then you have to give that up and actually lose out more in reality than you could potentailly gain.

Now ZOS is also nerfing templar by changing minor prophecy to a resistance buff. This esentially makes the skill line not worth slotting at all in PvP or solo contexts unless ZOS immediately adjusts the skill line to compensate for it. Templar's "Dawn Wrath" skill line has already been nerfed to the point that it's mainly a tank line in my eyes than a damage one, and with the changes to the passive, there's no reason for me to bother with the skill line.

TLDR: So let's recap

1. ZOS releases subclassing

2. Subclassing alleviates problems with classes like templar that have issues in PvP (though I also don't run a pure templar in PvE when I am solo). I can get on-demand buffs that the class is missing that can result in a victory or defeat.

3. For whatever reason, ZOS decides to buff "pure classes" but forgot that not all pure classes are equal and some literally have unslottable skills because they offer no real utility or value, even vs. scribed ones.

4. The restriction is applied and the classes that have issues are told to wait some time in the future for an "update" that has no real time table, has been pushed back. It essentially means that for anyone not willing to run the original terrible skill lines on a class like templar, you aren't getting buffed even though ZOS themselves acknowledges these classes all need a buff after DK

You cannot make up how bad balance is in the game, and how it's becoming worse because the dev team simply does not understand player behavior. Instead of listening to a player that wants to restrict players like the person above that has a vendetta against subclassing for some reason, let players embrace freedom. At least until you actually rework these classes.

The game is supposed to be about fun, yet in PvE I'm stuck with the same boring combinations from over 10 years ago s a pure class, and in PvP I just have to fight an uphill battle against a DK that wins by a landslide.

Exactly how this is viewed as good balance or even engaging by anyone on the development team is baffling. I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't enjoy pure classing before subclassing and would just swap classes half the time because the pure classes I use most both suck in PvP.

And I feel the compensation for pure classing is inadequate, especially on templar. It could be a different story if scribing were a better system and expanded upon, but no. That's not happening; instead what we get told is to wait for a rework years down the line.

The situation is terrible, but it does not have to be this way. It is this way because someone wants it to be. And that's the ultimate insult to anyone playing the game and disappointed with balance at any level.

The whole long ahh post stems from misconceptions and lack of understanding. There’s too much to bother correcting rn, the advice that I can give now is listen to other points of view.

Another advice is if you want to be constructive, then add more facts and less emotions. Your posts will drastically shrink, gain value and become much easier to read.