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[Request/Discussion] ZOS, with the upcoming Sorcerer refresh
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ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »I'm not arguing about whether or not CW/CF are as good as other spammables.. only that they are spammables. It would be better to request adjustments to Sorc's existing spammables (ex: make frags always instant cast but only deal bonus damage when you get the special proc.. make CW a normal instant cast instead of empowering LA's, etc), rather than insisting that they have none. In the eyes of zos sorc has two class spammables to choose from.
Of course there is no rule requiring you to LA weave.. but it is a de-facto core mechanic of the game and there are many skills and armor sets that are designed around it. There are other spammable options for ppl who don't want to be so reliant on LA weaving. Frags would actually be a great option in that case since the extra damage (due to the cast time) kinda makes up for the damage loss of not LA weaving. Plus you save barspace because your spammable and special burst attack are the same skill (I've done this exact setup before and it's really not bad).
Some spammables have cast times and they deal extra damage to compensate for that. Frags, Dark Flare, Dizzy, Rapid Strikes, Jabs are absolutely spammable skills, i.e. they are intended to be cast back-to-back in succession (aka "spammed"). If you don't agree then I doubt we will find common ground here.
Well think about that for a moment ... how can something be in a particular category if the key reason why it under-performs is part of what defines that category?
If something doesn't perform similarly (as a spammable) as all the rest of the other skills in that group; is it really accurate to call it a spammable "just because"? Shouldn't everything in a particular category have some sort of unifying baseline criteria? I mean, that's how categories generally work.
In no manner of statistics has it ever been correct to take outliers and wrap them in with a category. In this case, Crystal Weapon / Frags would be the outliers.
It looks like we agree that neither Crystal Weapon nor Frags are competitive or "as good" as any other class spammable so why would we include them in that category?
Radiant Oppression can be cast in back-to-back succession but nobody would ever consider that skill spammable.
And that's not just my opinion that those two skills aren't as good or competitive; the ESO logs support that as well.
We put them in that category because that is what they are. You use them by casting them repeatedly back to back aka spamming. Doesn't matter if it's underperforming/overperforming or w/e. Dark Flare kinda sucks but that doesn't mean it isn't a spammable skill.
Edited by ketsparrowhawk on August 7, 2026 2:52AM0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »We put them in that category because that is what they are. You use them by casting them repeatedly back to back aka spamming. Doesn't matter if it's underperforming/overperforming or w/e. Dark Flare kinda sucks but that doesn't mean it isn't a spammable skill.
If we can't agree that dizzying swing is a spammable skill then doubtful we'll be able to reach an agreement on this topic
Simply being able to re-cast a skill, no, I don’t think that’s enough to constitute a spam; the bar is higher than that now. .. and for the record, no experienced players are out here casting back to back Dizzying anymore. Slot it, yes .. cast it, sure … casting it on repeat? No. .. So I wouldn’t use that as a shining example of a spammable either.
A player can re-cast Radiant Oppression back to back too, would anyone think that’s “spammable”? .. are we really going to try and convince anyone that Radiant Oppression and Flame Lash are both in the same “spammable” category? No, because it would be absurd.
I’m willing to bet if you took a poll, most people would agree with me.
In this thread, specially about Sorcs lack of a class spammable, nobody tried to say Frags or Blast was a spammable, rather, everyone acknowledged that the class doesn’t have one. Even after Blast was changed to Weapon, this sentiment never changed.
It’s seemingly a select few people, who I’m guessing don’t or didn’t main Sorc, who thinks these skills are fine and are “spammable”. .. go try to “spam” either Frags or Weapon in a BG or Cyro; you’re going to get beat.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/510393/sorcerer-class-spammable1 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭You're "able" to recast anything but that is different from the intended use.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »You're "able" to recast anything but that is different from the intended use.
Whether something was “intended” to be spammable or not doesn’t mean that it is.
Let’s not pretend that the Devs haven’t made blunders many times in the past. Intentions in this game don’t always become reality.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.Edited by Turtle_Bot on August 7, 2026 5:55AM1 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
I was mostly responding to the "delayed by 0.5 to 1 second" because that isn't really the case in practice. In fact it lands 0.5 seconds SOONER than normal spammables because it's the *preceeding* LA weave that delivers the damage, not the following LA.
I understand that the class spammable options may not be ideal. My only point is that sorc does have class spammables. The cast time on frags is a turnoff but its still a more viable spammable than Dizzying Swing. If we want to discuss how to improve the existing class spammables that makes great sense (ex: remove the cast time from frags). Claiming that they have none is just incorrect.Edited by ketsparrowhawk on August 7, 2026 10:47AM0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
I was mostly responding to the "delayed by 0.5 to 1 second" because that isn't really the case in practice. In fact it lands 0.5 seconds SOONER than normal spammables because it's the *preceeding* LA weave that delivers the damage, not the following LA.
I understand that the class spammable options may not be ideal. My only point is that sorc does have class spammables. The cast time on frags is a turnoff but its still a more viable spammable than Dizzying Swing. If we want to discuss how to improve the existing class spammables that makes great sense. Claiming that they have none is just incorrect.
It’s a VAST minority of people, such as yourself, who “feel” that Sorcs have a class spammable.
The majority of players don’t, however, we have all agreed that both Crystal Weapon & Frags have clear mechanical differences from every other class spammable in the game .. that alone is enough for us to validate categorizing those skills separately.
If Sorcs don’t have a skill that behaves like all the rest, then Sorcs don’t have one; it’s that simple.
As for Dizzying, that’s not a class skill, that’s a weapon skill. Weapon skills aren’t built in the same way as class skills are; that’s very much an “apples to oranges” comparison.1 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭@NxJoeyD You do not speak for everyone. And yes weapon skills are indeed balanced to the same standard as class skills.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
CW has awkwardness with server side latency which makes the consistency when used with LA weaving clunky.
I tested the skill last night versus every other “spammable” and found instances where the game registered the LA hit on the target before the recognition of the trigger of CW, which threw off the weave. Which is made worse in actual gameplay combat versus a dummy test.
I think it’s crazy to try and justify that a skill is genuinely spammable when that functionality is dependent upon the fractional second recognition of a game engine that’s had known & reported stability issues.
The mechanics of CW impact its pacing in inconsistent ways. That means it’s not a reliable source of on demand damage.Edited by NxJoeyD on August 7, 2026 10:56AM0 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
CW has awkwardness with server side latency which makes the consistency when used with LA weaving clunky.
I tested the skill last night versus every other “spammable” and found instances where the game registered the LA hit on the target before the recognition of the trigger of CW, which threw off the weave.
I think it’s crazy to try and justify that a skill is genuinely spammable when that functionality is dependent upon the fractional second recognition of a game engine that’s had known & reported stability issues.
The mechanics of CW impact its pacing in inconsistent ways. That means it’s not a reliable source of on demand damage.
Great then lets discuss the fact that it isn't reliable. That has nothing to do with whether or not it "is a spammable", which it most definitely is.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »@NxJoeyD You do not speak for everyone. And yes weapon skills are indeed balanced to the same standard as class skills.
I seemingly speak for more than one person; and there’s threads that reinforce that.
No, weapon skills aren’t not. Weapon skills are more blank sheet as they’re able to be used by all classes whereas class skills have an in-class scope. Class skills have to deliver in ways that world and weapon skills don’t.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
CW has awkwardness with server side latency which makes the consistency when used with LA weaving clunky.
I tested the skill last night versus every other “spammable” and found instances where the game registered the LA hit on the target before the recognition of the trigger of CW, which threw off the weave.
I think it’s crazy to try and justify that a skill is genuinely spammable when that functionality is dependent upon the fractional second recognition of a game engine that’s had known & reported stability issues.
The mechanics of CW impact its pacing in inconsistent ways. That means it’s not a reliable source of on demand damage.
Great then lets discuss the fact that it isn't reliable. That has nothing to do with whether or not it "is a spammable", which it most definitely is.
Who told you that? A spammable skill most absolutely has to be reliable!0 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »@NxJoeyD You do not speak for everyone. And yes weapon skills are indeed balanced to the same standard as class skills.
I seemingly speak for more than one person; and there’s threads that reinforce that.
No, weapon skills aren’t not. Weapon skills are more blank sheet as they’re able to be used by all classes whereas class skills have an in-class scope. Class skills have to deliver in ways that world and weapon skills don’t.
Incorrect. Dots and spammables in particular are balanced to the same standard throughout the game. You can look up tooltips for yourself.0 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
CW has awkwardness with server side latency which makes the consistency when used with LA weaving clunky.
I tested the skill last night versus every other “spammable” and found instances where the game registered the LA hit on the target before the recognition of the trigger of CW, which threw off the weave.
I think it’s crazy to try and justify that a skill is genuinely spammable when that functionality is dependent upon the fractional second recognition of a game engine that’s had known & reported stability issues.
The mechanics of CW impact its pacing in inconsistent ways. That means it’s not a reliable source of on demand damage.
Great then lets discuss the fact that it isn't reliable. That has nothing to do with whether or not it "is a spammable", which it most definitely is.
Who told you that? A spammable skill most absolutely has to be reliable!
In my experience it is quite reliable. But if it wasn't, I would be complaining that it's an unreliable spammable. Not that it isn't a spammable at all.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
CW has awkwardness with server side latency which makes the consistency when used with LA weaving clunky.
I tested the skill last night versus every other “spammable” and found instances where the game registered the LA hit on the target before the recognition of the trigger of CW, which threw off the weave.
I think it’s crazy to try and justify that a skill is genuinely spammable when that functionality is dependent upon the fractional second recognition of a game engine that’s had known & reported stability issues.
The mechanics of CW impact its pacing in inconsistent ways. That means it’s not a reliable source of on demand damage.
Great then lets discuss the fact that it isn't reliable. That has nothing to do with whether or not it "is a spammable", which it most definitely is.
Who told you that? A spammable skill most absolutely has to be reliable!
In my experience it is quite reliable. But if it wasn't, I would be complaining that it's an unreliable spammable. Not that it isn't a spammable at all.
Frags is RNG and Weapon relies on weaving and there’s no player on these forums who’s going to agree with you if you try and claim that the state of the servers are perfectly fine and execute skills & inputs reliably & consistently .. they don’t.
The skills are spammable to you, which is fine, you can have your opinion but facts are facts; and factually both Frags & Weapon are mechanically different than their peer skills. Those differences are what make them non-spammables and seemingly more people agree with that, again:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/510393/sorcerer-class-spammable/p1
So please stop making overreach claims that something qualifies as a spammable skill when we all know it doesn’t behave like one and there’s long standing establishments that they aren’t. It’s your opinion, which is fine, but it’s nothing more than that.0 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
CW has awkwardness with server side latency which makes the consistency when used with LA weaving clunky.
I tested the skill last night versus every other “spammable” and found instances where the game registered the LA hit on the target before the recognition of the trigger of CW, which threw off the weave.
I think it’s crazy to try and justify that a skill is genuinely spammable when that functionality is dependent upon the fractional second recognition of a game engine that’s had known & reported stability issues.
The mechanics of CW impact its pacing in inconsistent ways. That means it’s not a reliable source of on demand damage.
Great then lets discuss the fact that it isn't reliable. That has nothing to do with whether or not it "is a spammable", which it most definitely is.
Who told you that? A spammable skill most absolutely has to be reliable!
In my experience it is quite reliable. But if it wasn't, I would be complaining that it's an unreliable spammable. Not that it isn't a spammable at all.
Frags is RNG and Weapon relies on weaving and there’s no player on these forums who’s going to agree with you if you try and claim that the state of the servers are perfectly fine and execute skills & inputs reliably & consistently .. they don’t.
The skills are spammable to you, which is fine, you can have your opinion but facts are facts; and factually both Frags & Weapon are mechanically different than their peer skills. Those differences are what make them non-spammables and seemingly more people agree with that, again:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/510393/sorcerer-class-spammable/p1
So please stop making overreach claims that something qualifies as a spammable skill when we all know it doesn’t behave like one and there’s long standing establishments that they aren’t. It’s your opinion, which is fine, but it’s nothing more than that.
Again, that thread is from a time before Crystal Weapon existed, and Crystal Frags had not yet been changed so that it can proc itself. Since that thread, both of those things have come to pass, making them both bonafide spammables. (Technically frags already was, but since it couldn't proc itself it didn't make sense to use it that way)
If I were to rewrite your complaint it would go like this: "Sorc class spammables are unreliable. Frags has a cast time and CW is too reliant on LA weaving. I propose removing the cast time from frags (and adjusting the TT accordingly) and turning CW into a normal projectile decoupled from LA's."
It's not an opinion. The skills were designed to be "spammed". We can talk about how to make them better but claiming they aren't spammables is counterproductive.Edited by ketsparrowhawk on August 7, 2026 11:47AM0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
I was mostly responding to the "delayed by 0.5 to 1 second" because that isn't really the case in practice. In fact it lands 0.5 seconds SOONER than normal spammables because it's the *preceeding* LA weave that delivers the damage, not the following LA.
I understand that the class spammable options may not be ideal. My only point is that sorc does have class spammables. The cast time on frags is a turnoff but its still a more viable spammable than Dizzying Swing. If we want to discuss how to improve the existing class spammables that makes great sense (ex: remove the cast time from frags). Claiming that they have none is just incorrect.
Understandable, probably doesn't work the way you describe it for me due to my ping, since that window to cast it while the projectile is still travelling only really happens for me when the target is at the absolute max range (where it encounters positional desync issues of target out of range because the target moved away from me, or the target moves closer to me causing the LA to land before the server receives the input for the CW cast from my client), but point noted about a spammable technically existing.
The main point I was trying to raise by mentioning it though still stands: The "in-class option" is too clunky to fulfil the intended role and that clunkiness pushes CW/CF to being more frequently used for other aspects of a build (delayed/timed burst) that the class has far too much of already in it's kit and for builds to look outside of the class kit for better and more reliable options to fill that spot, which ties back in with the whole over-redundancy within the class kit issue.1 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
I was mostly responding to the "delayed by 0.5 to 1 second" because that isn't really the case in practice. In fact it lands 0.5 seconds SOONER than normal spammables because it's the *preceeding* LA weave that delivers the damage, not the following LA.
I understand that the class spammable options may not be ideal. My only point is that sorc does have class spammables. The cast time on frags is a turnoff but its still a more viable spammable than Dizzying Swing. If we want to discuss how to improve the existing class spammables that makes great sense (ex: remove the cast time from frags). Claiming that they have none is just incorrect.
Understandable, probably doesn't work the way you describe it for me due to my ping, since that window to cast it while the projectile is still travelling only really happens for me when the target is at the absolute max range (where it encounters positional desync issues of target out of range because the target moved away from me, or the target moves closer to me causing the LA to land before the server receives the input for the CW cast from my client), but point noted about a spammable technically existing.
The main point I was trying to raise by mentioning it though still stands: The "in-class option" is too clunky to fulfil the intended role and that clunkiness pushes CW/CF to being more frequently used for other aspects of a build (delayed/timed burst) that the class has far too much of already in it's kit and for builds to look outside of the class kit for better and more reliable options to fill that spot, which ties back in with the whole over-redundancy within the class kit issue.
It works for me even in melee but my ping is usually decent.
Exactly, thank you very much. If we acknowledge that sorc already has class spammable options we can maybe take steps towards making them better. I think just removing the cast time from frags (and adjusting the TT accordingly) while keeping the special proc would be the most sensible solution.
Of course in PvP it's kind of a moot point isn't it? When I play Sorc I rarely "spam" anything because I'm using that time to set up my next combo instead. Curse > [spammable] > Fury > Bound Armaments > repeat with curse. Every 4 seconds the combo repeats. CW in its current form is very useful for this because I have the option of "saving" it to line up with the rest of my burst combo. Any time spent spamming a spammable is time wasted because I'm not setting up the next combo in that case. Only time I would spam is if they're in execute range and in that case I use Fury (or in the case of stamsorc whirling/executioner).Edited by ketsparrowhawk on August 7, 2026 1:10PM0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »Notice something missing here? There's no basic spammable ability within the class kit. No "surprise attack", "rune-blades" or "jabs" that would typically be used to maintain consistent pressure.
It's why Sorcerers ALL depend entirely on weapon/non-class abilities to fill this missing key aspect of a class kit, which leads into the next pain point.
Crystal Weapon is a spammable. You can light-attack weave with it like any other spammable. When you LA-weave into Crystal Weapon, CW will apply to that **preceeding** light attack while it is mid-travel. Same way imbue weapon works. Been using CW as my main spammable on sorc for ages. Works great.
@ketsparrowhawk I can't be bothered to read the back and forth, but going back to this original point, I did point out in that same spoiler that CW can be used as a spammable, just that it feels very awkward to use:Turtle_Bot wrote: »- Crystal weapon does nothing on cast, but adds a burst of damage to a light attack to be timed with another ability later on (the foundation of how the "pulse gank build" works when used in tandem with Arcanist Treatise skill that does the same thing but with class abilities instead of light attacks). Technically can be a pressure skill, but still delayed by 0.5 to 1 second (if light attack weaving) and is entirely dependent on the light attack landing on its target, hence why it often feels like a delayed or timed burst rather than a pressure/spammable ability because it's most reliable use is part of a gank build the target doesn't see coming.
The awkwardness with CW is probably also more pronounced with high ping (which directly impacts fluid light attack weaving) and/or if the player is more used to a traditional spammable, so it can be a spammable, but being different to every other spammable in the game (except crushing weapon) makes it something that not everyone will get used to.
Something that should be noted however, is that CW is a stamsorc spammable, magsorc still does not have an instant cast spammable ability in the class kit because the mag morph is frags with it's cast time, hence why magsorc has always ran Force Shock (and more recently Wield Soul) as it's spammable and that is where my comment was originally coming from.
And to clarify, it definitely is the cast time on frags that really destroys it's viability as a "spammable" and I mentioned as much in the "cast times" section.
I was mostly responding to the "delayed by 0.5 to 1 second" because that isn't really the case in practice. In fact it lands 0.5 seconds SOONER than normal spammables because it's the *preceeding* LA weave that delivers the damage, not the following LA.
I understand that the class spammable options may not be ideal. My only point is that sorc does have class spammables. The cast time on frags is a turnoff but its still a more viable spammable than Dizzying Swing. If we want to discuss how to improve the existing class spammables that makes great sense (ex: remove the cast time from frags). Claiming that they have none is just incorrect.
Understandable, probably doesn't work the way you describe it for me due to my ping, since that window to cast it while the projectile is still travelling only really happens for me when the target is at the absolute max range (where it encounters positional desync issues of target out of range because the target moved away from me, or the target moves closer to me causing the LA to land before the server receives the input for the CW cast from my client), but point noted about a spammable technically existing.
The main point I was trying to raise by mentioning it though still stands: The "in-class option" is too clunky to fulfil the intended role and that clunkiness pushes CW/CF to being more frequently used for other aspects of a build (delayed/timed burst) that the class has far too much of already in it's kit and for builds to look outside of the class kit for better and more reliable options to fill that spot, which ties back in with the whole over-redundancy within the class kit issue.
It doesn't work consistently for me that way either and I'm hardwired through & through. I play on XB NA. I do test PTS on PC but most of my "in-game" experiments I do on the XB megaserver unless it's cycle testing with content that's not live.
Personally, server side latency got notably worse after U46 and again after U50. There have been numerous threads reporting on more input discrepancies as of late so for a skill to function in the way that's being described here, given what so many people are experiencing; it's going to be inconsistent.
And I agree with your original sentiment. Whether an individual want's to consider these skills spammable or not is irrelevant; they don't behave like one and that's the main point here. Everyone else has skill mechs that behave consistently while Sorc & Templar are the odd classes out.
Now, what I'd suggest to fix the skill overall:
Crystal Shard becomes "Void Fracture" (getting us away from the crystals)
Base skill:
Void Fracture: Conjure void energy from the realm of Oblivion to blast your enemy with for (0.10350 MaxStat + 1.0868) Magic Damage. Every 5th cast of this skill will apply Minor Brittle to the target for 3 seconds.
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka
*Recommended that the current "bonus proc" of Frags instant animation & style be used as the baseline for this skill and the Magicka morph of this skill.
Morph 1:
Void Shatter: Conjure void energy from the realm of Oblivion to blast your enemy with for (0.10350 MaxStat + 1.0868) Magic Damage. Every 5th cast of this skill will apply Minor Brittle to the target for 3 seconds.
This skill gains an additional 10% chance to apply the Overcharged status effect and increases the damage from the Overcharged status effect by 10% (calculated off base status scale. So if an overcharge proc would normally scale to 1,300 based on stats then the bonus from this skill would add 130 points).
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka
*This skill would use the same instant cast animation as the base skill.
Morph 2:
Void Blades: Conjure Daedric blades from the realm of Oblivion to slash your target for (0.102997 MaxStat + 1.07601) Physical damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Casting again on the same target increases the range of this skill to 9m for 10 seconds.
When you deal damage with this ability you heal for (0.15000 Health (Resource)) and an additional (0.050000 Health (Resource)) per second for 5 seconds.
Cast: Instant
Range: 7m
Cost: 2,400 Stamina
*Recommended this skill use a modified version of the Twin Slashes animation but enable the conjured daggers to include a purple aura glowing around them.
In this scenario the base skill as well as both morphs are instant cast, but more importantly, direct applications on the target, and carry secondary benefits. In the case of Void Shatter the Sorc has a passive encouragement to invest resource into Crit via the Minor Brittle debuff to targets. Since Sorcs aren't a crit class, having a skill that provides even a minor reward for the higher cost investment into Crit makes the skill even more viable.
Void Blade would be a blisteringly fast conjured blade attack that has slightly increased scaling over the first light attack buff that Crystal Weapon has now. This would put the scaling on-par with other like spammable skills that are direct application. Since Sorcs are getting the equivalent of Minor Breach as a passive in U51 I thought it better to get rid of the 1,000 armor debuff and instead provide a guaranteed status effect application (this is similar to what we see in the current DK kit). Further, given that this is a proximity based skill it now includes a passive heal component. I thought this was important because the mechanic to heal while simultaneously dealing damage carries a high value in the current state of combat, especially PvP.
When it comes to being able to "spam" skills, when one is playing in PvP against high tier, high experienced players, the level of output we see from them is incredibly high. Currently, Sorcs are pressure oriented in their damage. In the past this was fine but subclassing reduced the value proposition of puressure-based damage output by some margin.
If a Sorc wants to be able to regularly and reliably be able to chunk health from experienced players running meta DK or meta subclassed builds they need a class skill that delivers strong, direct, attack skills; not ones that have to be stacked and then wait to chain or wait to effect; that's a significant disadvantage.
Healing is extreme in PvP now, and that includes self healing. Time spent setting up combos or waiting for delays is time that enables your opponent to heal or mitigate. Spammable, direct application skills take the time factor out of output rotations. This is especially beneficial when a player needs to recover and/or reset combat. Having to setup combo chains again is disadvantageous versus being able to cast a single skill that presents the prospect of putting your opponent on the defensive without having to wait. Meta subclasses & DKs can wait to respond to pressure, but they can't with direct heavy bursts.
I can't speak for everyone but I can say, myself, as a Sorc; I find Sorc class skills some of the easiest to mitigate. Frags, Curse, Armaments, they're incredibly easy to block, cleanse, or heal through. IMO this is one reason why we see so many Stam Sorcs and even then many of those don't even bother with Frags or Weapon. A solid Stam Sorc build will generally include: Weld Soul, Ele Suss, Hurricane, Vigor, RaT, Blood 4 Blood, Defense Rune, Crit Surge, Armaments (for the buff), Carve, Onslaught, Some variant of Vateshran's, and one of the S or A tier Mythics.
PvP raised the bar on power and mechanics and Sorcs need skills that can compete in this environment, that means strong, direct, instant bursts .. not delayed bursts, not delayed procs, not redundant DoT pressure; strong skills that hit like a freight train.
These skill suggestions are simple, and leave room within the rest of the Sorc skill lines to include additional mechanics and /or buffs & debuffs. I didn't want to put all of our proverbial eggs in this one basket. These skills just need to be a reliable instant cast that applies directly to the target in a single cast and I think that works here.
Edited by NxJoeyD on August 7, 2026 1:51PM1 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭@NxJoeyD they do behave consistently. They both have other skills in the game you can compare them to (Frags vs Dark Flare. Crystal Wep vs Crushing Wep). OP themselves acknowledged they are spammables in the very comment you're responding to. Keep digging in your heels if you want but you're just wrong about this one. I do agree that there is room for improvement on these skills though.I can't speak for everyone but I can say, myself, as a Sorc; I find Sorc class skills some of the easiest to mitigate. Frags, Curse, Armaments, they're incredibly easy to block, cleanse, or heal through.
Sorcs have an extremely effective offensive toolkit which is evident by the fact that they are so very successful in PvP in general. Everything in the game can be mitigated (blocked/cleaned/dodged/healed through) somehow.0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »
Sorcs have an extremely effective offensive toolkit which is evident by the fact that they are so very successful in PvP in general. Everything in the game can be mitigated (blocked/cleaned/dodged/healed through) somehow.
Sorcs, as a rule, are not very successful in PvP. Stam Sorcs have broad success in PvP but even those, when we look at the skills they're using to carry most of the work it's not Class skills it's world & weapon skills ... Whirling Blades, Onslaught, Vampire skills, Scribes, Executioner, Thrive, Carve, Sus, RaT .. these are the skills Stam Sorcs are using to be successful in PvP, and they're not Sorc skills.
The majority of Sorcs that are successful in PvP in the current state are WW builds. Mag Sorcs are toward the bottom and Stam Sorcs rely on out-of-class skills more than most. That doesn't speak to Sorc success it speaks to world & weapon success.
Top tier players in PvP aren't dying to Curse, Frags, or Armaments; inexperienced players, sure; but not what we'd consider high MMR.
And it's not that there are skills that cannot be mitigated, it's that Sorc skills, due to their mechanics, are EASIER to mitigate that most others. The only thing Sorcs have right now is super strong sustain, hence the elevation in Stam Sorcs, but again, they're not out here casting Curse.2 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »
Sorcs have an extremely effective offensive toolkit which is evident by the fact that they are so very successful in PvP in general. Everything in the game can be mitigated (blocked/cleaned/dodged/healed through) somehow.
Sorcs, as a rule, are not very successful in PvP. Stam Sorcs have broad success in PvP but even those, when we look at the skills they're using to carry most of the work it's not Class skills it's world & weapon skills ... Whirling Blades, Onslaught, Vampire skills, Scribes, Executioner, Thrive, Carve, Sus, RaT .. these are the skills Stam Sorcs are using to be successful in PvP, and they're not Sorc skills.
The majority of Sorcs that are successful in PvP in the current state are WW builds. Mag Sorcs are toward the bottom and Stam Sorcs rely on out-of-class skills more than most. That doesn't speak to Sorc success it speaks to world & weapon success.
Top tier players in PvP aren't dying to Curse, Frags, or Armaments; inexperienced players, sure; but not what we'd consider high MMR.
And it's not that there are skills that cannot be mitigated, it's that Sorc skills, due to their mechanics, are EASIER to mitigate that most others. The only thing Sorcs have right now is super strong sustain, hence the elevation in Stam Sorcs, but again, they're not out here casting Curse.
Completely false. Sorcs are among the very best in PvP. Outperformed only by DK and WW (until the sustain nerfs go through).0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »
Sorcs have an extremely effective offensive toolkit which is evident by the fact that they are so very successful in PvP in general. Everything in the game can be mitigated (blocked/cleaned/dodged/healed through) somehow.
Sorcs, as a rule, are not very successful in PvP. Stam Sorcs have broad success in PvP but even those, when we look at the skills they're using to carry most of the work it's not Class skills it's world & weapon skills ... Whirling Blades, Onslaught, Vampire skills, Scribes, Executioner, Thrive, Carve, Sus, RaT .. these are the skills Stam Sorcs are using to be successful in PvP, and they're not Sorc skills.
The majority of Sorcs that are successful in PvP in the current state are WW builds. Mag Sorcs are toward the bottom and Stam Sorcs rely on out-of-class skills more than most. That doesn't speak to Sorc success it speaks to world & weapon success.
Top tier players in PvP aren't dying to Curse, Frags, or Armaments; inexperienced players, sure; but not what we'd consider high MMR.
And it's not that there are skills that cannot be mitigated, it's that Sorc skills, due to their mechanics, are EASIER to mitigate that most others. The only thing Sorcs have right now is super strong sustain, hence the elevation in Stam Sorcs, but again, they're not out here casting Curse.
Completely false. Sorcs are among the very best in PvP. Outperformed only by DK and WW (until the sustain nerfs go through).
Where are you getting this made up information? Stam Sorcs ONLY fare well in PvP, and again, not due to class skills.
Even strong Stam Sorcs can be easily bested by DK, WW, AND subclassed builds.
Look for yourself, pretty much ALL of the Stam Sorc builds look like this ... Where's Crystal Weapon? Where's Curse? Where's Bound Armaments?
It's pretty clear that you don't main Sorc, or if you do, you need some experience with the class and in PvP because none of what your saying holds up to facts, it's all opinions based on I don't know what.
Builds like this don't reflect well on the Sorc class, in fact, the opposite. These are Sorc in name only.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pvp1/0 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »
Sorcs have an extremely effective offensive toolkit which is evident by the fact that they are so very successful in PvP in general. Everything in the game can be mitigated (blocked/cleaned/dodged/healed through) somehow.
Sorcs, as a rule, are not very successful in PvP. Stam Sorcs have broad success in PvP but even those, when we look at the skills they're using to carry most of the work it's not Class skills it's world & weapon skills ... Whirling Blades, Onslaught, Vampire skills, Scribes, Executioner, Thrive, Carve, Sus, RaT .. these are the skills Stam Sorcs are using to be successful in PvP, and they're not Sorc skills.
The majority of Sorcs that are successful in PvP in the current state are WW builds. Mag Sorcs are toward the bottom and Stam Sorcs rely on out-of-class skills more than most. That doesn't speak to Sorc success it speaks to world & weapon success.
Top tier players in PvP aren't dying to Curse, Frags, or Armaments; inexperienced players, sure; but not what we'd consider high MMR.
And it's not that there are skills that cannot be mitigated, it's that Sorc skills, due to their mechanics, are EASIER to mitigate that most others. The only thing Sorcs have right now is super strong sustain, hence the elevation in Stam Sorcs, but again, they're not out here casting Curse.
Completely false. Sorcs are among the very best in PvP. Outperformed only by DK and WW (until the sustain nerfs go through).
Where are you getting this made up information? Stam Sorcs ONLY fare well in PvP, and again, not due to class skills.
Even strong Stam Sorcs can be easily bested by DK, WW, AND subclassed builds.
Look for yourself, pretty much ALL of the Stam Sorc builds look like this ... Where's Crystal Weapon? Where's Curse? Where's Bound Armaments?
It's pretty clear that you don't main Sorc, or if you do, you need some experience with the class and in PvP because none of what your saying holds up to facts, it's all opinions based on I don't know what.
Builds like this don't reflect well on the Sorc class, in fact, the opposite. These are Sorc in name only.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pvp1/
It's not made up. It comes from over a decade of playing ESO on a daily basis and running an active PvP guild for the majority of that time. Claiming that sorcs are bottom tier honestly kind of disqualifies you from this conversation imo. It's just outrageously wrong.
Here are a few current PvP class tier lists. I couldn't find one with Sorc below A tier (Not that I need a tier list video to tell me what my own first-hand experience tells me every day: Sorcs are doing great in PvP):
Sekaar (S-tier): AnimeBoopz (stam=S, mag=A): Shook (A-tier, or S-tier in the hands of a good player):
I play all classes equally. Sorc is what I log in with when I want to play on ez mode.
You can do a quick YouTube search for "ESO U50 Sorcerer PvP build" and see that most of them are using the very skills you said they're not using. I literally could not find one that didn't have at least two of those skills slotted (yes stamsorcs too). It's not me making stuff up:
Eman from a month ago (Curse + Bound Armaments both slotted): Anime Boopz just yesterday (Curse + Bound Armaments + Frags all slotted): Decimus one month ago (Curse + Bound Armaments + Frags all slotted):Edited by ketsparrowhawk on August 7, 2026 6:06PM0 -
NxJoeyD✭✭✭✭ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »ketsparrowhawk wrote: »
Sorcs have an extremely effective offensive toolkit which is evident by the fact that they are so very successful in PvP in general. Everything in the game can be mitigated (blocked/cleaned/dodged/healed through) somehow.
Sorcs, as a rule, are not very successful in PvP. Stam Sorcs have broad success in PvP but even those, when we look at the skills they're using to carry most of the work it's not Class skills it's world & weapon skills ... Whirling Blades, Onslaught, Vampire skills, Scribes, Executioner, Thrive, Carve, Sus, RaT .. these are the skills Stam Sorcs are using to be successful in PvP, and they're not Sorc skills.
The majority of Sorcs that are successful in PvP in the current state are WW builds. Mag Sorcs are toward the bottom and Stam Sorcs rely on out-of-class skills more than most. That doesn't speak to Sorc success it speaks to world & weapon success.
Top tier players in PvP aren't dying to Curse, Frags, or Armaments; inexperienced players, sure; but not what we'd consider high MMR.
And it's not that there are skills that cannot be mitigated, it's that Sorc skills, due to their mechanics, are EASIER to mitigate that most others. The only thing Sorcs have right now is super strong sustain, hence the elevation in Stam Sorcs, but again, they're not out here casting Curse.
Completely false. Sorcs are among the very best in PvP. Outperformed only by DK and WW (until the sustain nerfs go through).
Where are you getting this made up information? Stam Sorcs ONLY fare well in PvP, and again, not due to class skills.
Even strong Stam Sorcs can be easily bested by DK, WW, AND subclassed builds.
Look for yourself, pretty much ALL of the Stam Sorc builds look like this ... Where's Crystal Weapon? Where's Curse? Where's Bound Armaments?
It's pretty clear that you don't main Sorc, or if you do, you need some experience with the class and in PvP because none of what your saying holds up to facts, it's all opinions based on I don't know what.
Builds like this don't reflect well on the Sorc class, in fact, the opposite. These are Sorc in name only.
https://alcasthq.com/eso-stamina-sorcerer-build-pvp1/
It's not made up. It comes from over a decade of playing ESO on a daily basis and running an active PvP guild for the majority of that time. Claiming that sorcs are bottom tier honestly kind of disqualifies you from this conversation imo. It's just outrageously wrong.
Here are a few current PvP class tier lists. I couldn't find one with Sorc below A tier (Not that I need a tier list video to tell me what my own first-hand experience tells me every day: Sorcs are doing great in PvP):
Sekaar (S-tier): AnimeBoopz (stam=S, mag=A): Shook (A-tier, or S-tier in the hands of a good player):
I play all classes equally. Sorc is what I log in with when I want to play on ez mode.
You can do a quick YouTube search for "ESO U50 Sorcerer PvP build" and see that most of them are using the very skills you said they're not using. It's not me making stuff up.
Eman from a month ago (Curse + Bound Armaments both slotted): Anime Boopz just yesterday (Curse + Bound Armaments + Frags all slotted): Decimus one month ago (Curse + Bound Armaments + Frags all slotted):
Honestly I could post endless links but the point is made I think.
I can do the same:
None of those key skills are used:
https://decimusgaming.com/stamsorc/
None of those key skills are used:
https://xynodegaming.com/eso-builds/sorcerer/tormentor/
None of those key skills are used: (which is funny because the creators video thumbnail shows skills like Crystal weapon which isn't even part of the build)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOj09fAQu6g
Here's another build omitting key skills and leaning heavily outside of the class
Further, here's another tier list from a source that's soely dedicated to ESO, Sorcs rank in at B tier, which I would agree with if built with class skills. The only way to elevate Sorc performance is to slot more outside of the class.
Anyone can make builds or opinions and we both can find ones that support their position. And it's funny because one of the builds I'm citing is by the SAME content creator in one of the videos you've cited. There's so much inconsistency when it comes to content creation and what's genuine versus what gets click traffic.
From what I see, everyday in PvP, on XB NA; Sorcs are not near the top of list in terms of effectiveness. There are some who do yield good results, but as I've said, they're Stam Sorcs running mostly non-Sorc skills similar to those referenced above.
It gets old when people try and bill Sorcs as some S tier class when the majority of their effectiveness relies on going outside of the class more than most.
And it isn't "just" PvP. Look at just about any of the Logs and see how far down you have to go before you start seeing Sorc skills. We see a lot of consistency when we look at some of the higher achieved DPS across various PvE instances. PvE enemies are arguably easier to kill than PvP players and if Sorc skills are S Tier one would expect to see them averaging higher than what we see in the logs .. or even to see more of them.
So I have no idea what player group you're in or what your own experience is, but what I do know is that there's just as much perspective and data out there showing that Sorc's class-specific skills are not top performers.Edited by NxJoeyD on August 7, 2026 6:11PM1 -
ESO_Nightingale✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Heres hoping they listen. I'd love to see pure shock damage sorcerer feel like a proper playstyle. Id play the hell out of that!PvE Frost Warden Main and teacher. Come Join the ESO Frost Discord to discuss everything frost!: https://discord.gg/5PT3rQX
Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@Frostingale
Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/eso_nightingale3 -
ketsparrowhawk✭✭✭✭✭
✭@NxJoeyD
I linked tier list videos in response to you accusing me of making stuff up. So I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here. The examples you chose are quite telling..I can do the same:
This is a PVE build. We're talking about PVP.Here's another build omitting key skills and leaning heavily outside of the class
ybvzk5q40swu.jpg
This is a PVE tier list.Further, here's another tier list from a source that's soely dedicated to ESO, Sorcs rank in at B tier, which I would agree with if built with class skills. The only way to elevate Sorc performance is to slot more outside of the class.
m4l0u6qln3mv.jpg
You'll notice at the top it says "Update 49". His current U50 sorc build is linked in my previous comment (Spoiler: Curse + Bound Armaments + Frags are all slotted).None of those key skills are used:
https://decimusgaming.com/stamsorc/
Show me one example of Xynode playing PvP and I'll take this seriously.None of those key skills are used:
https://xynodegaming.com/eso-builds/sorcerer/tormentor/
Great example! Crystal Weapon and Bound Armaments are both slotted. In his rundown of the build it is Crystal Weapon but then for the demonstration portion he re-morphed it to Frags. Both great options.None of those key skills are used: (which is funny because the creators video thumbnail shows skills like Crystal weapon which isn't even part of the build)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOj09fAQu6g
I don't have much to say regarding PVE. Haven't been in that world in quite a while and it really has little bearing on PvP.
The point of me posting links to current build videos from reputable PVP content creators was to answer this question ^. As you can see, these abilities do get slotted quite often.Where's Crystal Weapon? Where's Curse? Where's Bound Armaments?Edited by ketsparrowhawk on August 9, 2026 1:25AM0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ESO_Nightingale wrote: »Heres hoping they listen. I'd love to see pure shock damage sorcerer feel like a proper playstyle. Id play the hell out of that!
I'd love to see this for Sorcerer as well, especially since Shock Sorc hasn't ever been "meta" and Lightning mage is my all time favourite theme (also one of the reasons for my main chars name and also why I originally picked Sorc as my first class/main over a decade ago when I first started).
I've personally cobbled together a shock build that works decently well in PvP (and can be adjusted for PvE), but it still feels bad to be forced out of the class skills for the spammable, and into using non-shock abilities for things like burst/payoff (armaments/curse), DoT (shock reach) and the shock damage execute (fury/wrath) is so bad post nerfs that it's not even worth trying to make work outside of just giga casual zerging game-play in PvP.
The VFX/SFX of a lot of the skills also leaves a lot to be desired, with many looking a lot like reskinned fireballs (overload light attacks, shocking soul, shock reach, etc.) instead of actual lightning effects and sounding a lot like drawn out static crackling (overload heavies, malygda monster set, etc.) rather than the booms/crashes of thunder/lightning.
Like I said in the OP, ZOS has already shown they can create amazing Lightning VFX/SFX that feel like a proper lightning mage with the IA Storm Projection vision/verse and even existing abilities like streak and fury (fury's VFX and SFX are actually really good, it's just far too clunky and unreliable to be worth using), so it can be done, it just needs to happen across the rest of the shock damage skills/sets/effects.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Crystal Shard becomes "Void Fracture" (getting us away from the crystals)
Base skill:
Void Fracture: Conjure void energy from the realm of Oblivion to blast your enemy with for (0.10350 MaxStat + 1.0868) Magic Damage. Every 5th cast of this skill will apply Minor Brittle to the target for 3 seconds.
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka
*Recommended that the current "bonus proc" of Frags instant animation & style be used as the baseline for this skill and the Magicka morph of this skill.
Morph 1:
Void Shatter: Conjure void energy from the realm of Oblivion to blast your enemy with for (0.10350 MaxStat + 1.0868) Magic Damage. Every 5th cast of this skill will apply Minor Brittle to the target for 3 seconds.
This skill gains an additional 10% chance to apply the Overcharged status effect and increases the damage from the Overcharged status effect by 10% (calculated off base status scale. So if an overcharge proc would normally scale to 1,300 based on stats then the bonus from this skill would add 130 points).
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka
*This skill would use the same instant cast animation as the base skill.
Morph 2:
Void Blades: Conjure Daedric blades from the realm of Oblivion to slash your target for (0.102997 MaxStat + 1.07601) Physical damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Casting again on the same target increases the range of this skill to 9m for 10 seconds.
When you deal damage with this ability you heal for (0.15000 Health (Resource)) and an additional (0.050000 Health (Resource)) per second for 5 seconds.
Cast: Instant
Range: 7m
Cost: 2,400 Stamina
*Recommended this skill use a modified version of the Twin Slashes animation but enable the conjured daggers to include a purple aura glowing around them.
Interesting idea, but I would do away with the magic damage altogether and just keep something like Overcharged status as a nod to it being magic damage before the rework. Something more like:
Base skill:
Arcane Jolt
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Blast your target with Daedric infused Lightning, dealing X Shock Damage. Hitting a target affected by the Concussed Status inflicts the Overcharged Status effect.
Visuals would be similar to the Storm Projection Lightning but with the Force Shock Onyx Black skill style colouring to tie in Sorcerers Daedric sub-theme. Overcharged is there as a nod to shards/frags being magic damage originally, but removed the magic damage since Sorc is the main source of lightning theme in ESO and the passives synergize with Shock/Physical damage.
Base damage values are the same as a regular ranged instant spammable such as Force Shock.
Morph 1:
Echoing Jolt
Cast: Instant
Range: 28m
Cost: 2700 Magicka
Blast your target with Daedric infused Lightning, dealing X Shock Damage. Hitting a target affected by the Concussed Status inflicts the Overcharged and Sundered Status effects and causes this ability to chain to a nearby target twice (cannot chain to the same target twice and bonus Status effects applied only to original target).
Morph now allows the ability to chain to up to 2 nearby targets, granting some much needed cleave to Sorc and giving a reason to build into the shock damage status effect.
Morph 2:
Gale Strike
Cast: Instant
Range: 7m/Self
Cost: 2300 Stamina
Strike your target with the force of a Storm, dealing X Physical Damage. Hitting a target affected by the Sundered Status inflicts the Overcharged and Concussed Status effects. If this ability is cast without a target, you instead infuse your next Light or Heavy attack to deal Y Physical Damage.
This morph is the stamina morph, dealing physical damage, and giving a reason to build around Sundered, but using it while not targeting anything causes it to function like current crystal weapon, giving it a way to be used as either a traditional spammable that hits a target, or keeping the current CW playstyle. X is standard melee spammable damage, Y is ranged spammable damage since it can be used with a bow/staff attack from range and potentially delayed to time it with another GCD like current CW can.
The reason for the double status effects is because the ability has no built in extra damage or self-buffing modifiers that other class spammables have:
- surprise attack (off-balance + either guaranted crit + sundered or passive speed and percent modifier)
- skulls (massive percent increase on 3rd cast)
- flame lash (spec bow damage that is AoE with a heal if used on off-balanced target)
- runeblades (percent bonus per crux and percent increase or crit chance for each projectile)
- dive (weapon/spell damage bonus + off-balance)
It was also to tie in the theme of Storms for Sorcs 2 damage types Physical (Wind) and Shock (Lightning).
Also note that it no longer has the cost reduction secondary effect that both morphs currently have or the bonus high damage rng proc that frags has.1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRTmMiFG_gw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpfte1Xxj28&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8U5ECUtZRYI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXASmYn5Lrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcOgUt8528Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XnHOSPilag