U51 Feedback Thread for Classes and Abilities

Kazajhan · August 5

acanca wrote: »

The new Insatiable Hunger Proc conditions:

I did solo content by myself, mainly black rose prison first stage fight repeatedly to test, and i found it much, much harder to maintain the werewolf form compared to before.

I constantly hovered around 200 ult, only going above when in rampage form because i was in combat all the time and my health never dropped below the treshold so the only way to regain ult with insatiable Hunger was when i was at or below 200 ult.

I think this change would make maintaining ww form difficult in some scenarios such as long scripted fights without a lot of mobs dying constantly where you could take the opportunity to use the synergy before as the opportunity presented itself and now you cant.

I also fear this change would be terrible for pvp because of the very common stuck in combat bug or even if it works as intended. Imagine some one in your group is fighting some 200 metres away and you find yourself in a situation with 250 ult and a corpse in front of you? You cant use Insatiable Hunger to restore ult and make your way over to the fight, you dont meet the conditions, and making your way over at half ult with the ult draining would have you reach the fight at below 100 ult with only seconds remaining to stay in werewolf form. It is, im afraid, a pretty bad quality of life change even when it works as intended.

I understand that the problem that was trying to be solved is the synergy popping up constantly and making other synergies hard to come by. In that case please give Insatiable Hunger the lowest prioriity so other synergies are always appears when available.

Thank you

Thanks for that post. I went on PTS tonight, but couldn't find anybody to party with to test the Insatiable Hunger when a party member a ways off is in combat. I did verify that I could not use IH while in combat.

I definitely found out that there's often a delay from when the mob is dead to when the system thinks combat really is over. Or that spawn or monster I ran past caught up with me, and I couldn't use IH. Sometimes it was fine, sometimes it was really annoying, sometimes it felt bugged.

Just imagine how pathetic it would be to have to beg party members to stop fighting so you can eat.

If these rules were applied to health, can you imagine it? No healing unless under 40% HP. No healing when over 66% stam/magicka. No healing in combat. Having to beg party members to wait so you can recover after a fight. People would be up in arms.

Nobody's ever going to want a werewolf in a party, in a PUG, or on a trial. Serious damage to the game play experience.

mocap · August 5

Heals from Claw Fury are strong indeed. They can crit, which makes them as strong as Leeching Strikes + Crit Surge combined. Pale Order can be easily replaced with Mora or anything else.

Build 40k hp NB Pack Leader and solo vet anything.

beer781993 · August 5

Stealth detection buffs are too much, it should rather get nerfed. Detection pots already make using cloak completely useless.

There is no need to buff camo and mage light.

In my opinion there shouldn't be anything that can make you visible while using cloak unless you take damage.

Don't destroy stealth gameplay. ...

Firstmep · August 5

beer781993 wrote: »

Stealth detection buffs are too much, it should rather get nerfed. Detection pots already make using cloak completely useless.

There is no need to buff camo and mage light.

In my opinion there shouldn't be anything that can make you visible while using cloak unless you take damage.

Don't destroy stealth gameplay. ...

I get that they want consistency but giving evil hunter the same range as detect pots is not consistent, since detect pots have a limited duration vs potion cooldowns.

Major_Mangle · August 5

Mainly writing from a PvP point of view here.

The good:

* Elemental susceptibility changes. Giving it a cost has been long overdue and is a very welcome change. I still find it a bit too strong with how long of a range it has. Reduce the range to 20-22 m and it´s in fairly balanced spot.

* Werewolf ability cost changes. Even without the sorcerer class mastery, the abilities were way too cheap and required very little sustain investment (if none). With sorcerer class mastery the sustain was a complete joke. Not related to werewolf but sustain across the board in both PvP and PvE is way too strong and need some serious rebalance.

The bad/less good:

* No changes to DK Core of Flame. This goes together with my previous point. Sustain should be something you should´ve to invest into, or fix by utilizing group play. The problem with DK isn´t the damage it does with whip or whatever the power status of corrosive is, but the fact you can´t run the class out of "juice". I´m fine with high damage/bursty playstyles, but the trade off should be that you can´t "stick around" for too long or you risk running out of resources.

* No positive changes to NB in PvP. Class masteries are severely underwhelming and I can´t remember the last time NB was in such a poor state in PvP.

* Templar losing out on more damage once again. Templar doesn´t need more survivability, the class is already too strong in that department. Sure templar is in a solid spot in PvE from what I can gather, but PvP wise it´s relegated to a support class with some utility through cleanse. Templar need some of its damage back in PvP (please make puncturing sweeps viable in PvP again), and I´d happily trade it for some of templar survivability.

acanca · August 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Mainly writing from a PvP point of view here.

The good:

* Elemental susceptibility changes. Giving it a cost has been long overdue and is a very welcome change. I still find it a bit too strong with how long of a range it has. Reduce the range to 20-22 m and it´s in fairly balanced spot.

* Werewolf ability cost changes. Even without the sorcerer class mastery, the abilities were way too cheap and required very little sustain investment (if none). With sorcerer class mastery the sustain was a complete joke. Not related to werewolf but sustain across the board in both PvP and PvE is way too strong and need some serious rebalance.

The bad/less good:

* No changes to DK Core of Flame. This goes together with my previous point. Sustain should be something you should´ve to invest into, or fix by utilizing group play. The problem with DK isn´t the damage it does with whip or whatever the power status of corrosive is, but the fact you can´t run the class out of "juice". I´m fine with high damage/bursty playstyles, but the trade off should be that you can´t "stick around" for too long or you risk running out of resources.

* No positive changes to NB in PvP. Class masteries are severely underwhelming and I can´t remember the last time NB was in such a poor state in PvP.

* Templar losing out on more damage once again. Templar doesn´t need more survivability, the class is already too strong in that department. Sure templar is in a solid spot in PvE from what I can gather, but PvP wise it´s relegated to a support class with some utility through cleanse. Templar need some of its damage back in PvP (please make puncturing sweeps viable in PvP again), and I´d happily trade it for some of templar survivability.

Completely agree, both Core of Flame skill for DK and Conservation of Energy Class Mastery for Sorcerer needs to be toned down with battle spirit active.

Something simple as 'this skill restores half of these values with battle spirit active' would see them both become way more healthy for the game.

The amount of sustain generated by Core of Flame and Conservation of Energy is game breaking for pvp.

AdonisJorge · August 5

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Mainly writing from a PvP point of view here.

The good:

* Elemental susceptibility changes. Giving it a cost has been long overdue and is a very welcome change. I still find it a bit too strong with how long of a range it has. Reduce the range to 20-22 m and it´s in fairly balanced spot.

* Werewolf ability cost changes. Even without the sorcerer class mastery, the abilities were way too cheap and required very little sustain investment (if none). With sorcerer class mastery the sustain was a complete joke. Not related to werewolf but sustain across the board in both PvP and PvE is way too strong and need some serious rebalance.

The bad/less good:

* No changes to DK Core of Flame. This goes together with my previous point. Sustain should be something you should´ve to invest into, or fix by utilizing group play. The problem with DK isn´t the damage it does with whip or whatever the power status of corrosive is, but the fact you can´t run the class out of "juice". I´m fine with high damage/bursty playstyles, but the trade off should be that you can´t "stick around" for too long or you risk running out of resources.

* No positive changes to NB in PvP. Class masteries are severely underwhelming and I can´t remember the last time NB was in such a poor state in PvP.

* Templar losing out on more damage once again. Templar doesn´t need more survivability, the class is already too strong in that department. Sure templar is in a solid spot in PvE from what I can gather, but PvP wise it´s relegated to a support class with some utility through cleanse. Templar need some of its damage back in PvP (please make puncturing sweeps viable in PvP again), and I´d happily trade it for some of templar survivability.

The game is perfectly balanced, we just need to everyone play DK and problem solved

muetor3166 · August 5

1. Templar and Sorcerer
The Templar was already a poorly positioned class. Now it is being weakened further. That doesn't make much sense.
The Sorcerer loses some damage output but will be able to cope with it in PvP.

2. Damage Shields
A good move. Though likely not sufficient.

3. Werewolf
This is a problem. For over a decade, the Werewolf was effectively sidelined in ESO. Now it has returned very strong—perhaps a bit *too* strong. The current adjustments look like an attempt to make it disappear into obscurity again. That is bad. There is a lack of moderation and finesse here regarding careful adjustments. As things stand, the Werewolf is likely to lose its position as a competitive rival to the extremely powerful Dragonknights.
Incidentally, the Werewolf was also the only effective counter to players who cheat—specifically those who exploit game bugs or use hardware manipulation. Since ZOS isn't taking action against this, that group of players has become a major problem on PlayStation servers. With the changes in Patch 51, these players now have free rein again.
That leaves only one dominant class in PvP. That is boring. For players who started developing a Werewolf character after the buffs in Update 50, this sends a message that the developers do not value their time or effort. It is hard to be more discouraging than that.
All in all, the adjustments to the Werewolf are ill-conceived, excessive, and out of touch with the reality of the game.

4. Dragonknight Adjustments
This will have a barely noticeable impact. The class's overall package is simply too strong.

5. Invisibility and Hiding
This will make ambushes more difficult, though not impossible; it simply increases the challenge of pulling them off.

Thanks to Google Translate. :-)
The original German text can be found here:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/de/discussion/697288/aenderungen-im-kampfsystem/p1?new=1

SonOfAsura · August 5

Increasing Elemental Susceptibility cost to 3.2k is a big mistake for PvE, especially in encounters where it needs to be applied to multiple enemies.

umagon · August 5

Thank you for finally removing that awful crouching animation on dark cloak.

Tendo163 · August 5

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

Wuuffyy · August 5

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

Usureki · August 5

I think many and many aspects of U51 are very exciting and I'm looking forward to it a lot, but Class abilities and their changes in themselves are beneath terrible.

I find it rather ridiculous that any classes other than the Dragonkinght get nerfs. Considering the myriads of threads and feedbacks the paying customers were kind enough to give on these forums, this gives me the impression that the developers have literally zero idea on what they are doing related to class balancing or just simply chose to absolutely not caring at all. Both of these options are worrying and is quite disrespectful towards the playerbase and even the game itself. Absolutely no changes on the DK 12-15k spammable whips, no change to the ulti that makes a DK invincible, no change to the insane sustain the class receives. Instead less heal from the worse morph of their spammable and even more increased damage reduction from another ability. ZOS.. why? WHY?! Its like DK has a sugardaddy amongst the DEVs, they are implementing functionalities those are clearly broken and nevertheless maintain this sad state of a game. Disappointing to say the least.

On another note.. Since the introduction of Class Masteries, one passive of Arcanist, Fate Realigned is bugged and gives 0 weapon and spell damage. The class that is already amongst the weakest in PvP due to the desync caused by the weak performance of the servers does not even get a fully & normally implemented class mastery. What do they get? An update that restricts one of their abilities, so other subclassers won't use it.

Also the Exploitation modification from the Sorcerer skills is like raising a white flag from the DEVs.. instead of actually fixing the new concept, they just revert it to the old one. Is the ESO codebase that spaghetti coded legacy stuff that they can no longer understand it so they cannot extend it properly? I simply see no other possible reason to it.

The WW nerfs.. we'll have to see. As of now I'm afraid that the nerf hammer is just way too big and also tells me that the DEVs implementing these changes are not really understanding the underlying reasons why WW was so OP and decide to use a Sledgehammer to crack a Nut - same method they've used to "balance" Shattered Paths signet.

I'm disappointed.

Foxtrot39 · August 5

ArctosCethlenn · August 5

Core of Flame and Conservation of Energy should scale based off the caster's recoveries rather than max resources, so sorcs and dks would still need to invest in recovery for them to be useful. That or just gut them in pvp.

Edit: it is *** hilarious that zos thinks flame lash healing was the problem and not core of flame/heart of flame.

XVestigeXx · August 5

ioResult wrote: »

You should swap the DK and NB class passives.

The Dragonknight Elder Dragon passive should grant Minor Savagery and the Nightblade Hemorrhage passive should grant Minor Brutality.

This is a terrible idea for PvP. Absolutely no. I am a NB main and this is the worst Idea Ive heard so far

XVestigeXx · August 5

SonOfAsura wrote: »

Increasing Elemental Susceptibility cost to 3.2k is a big mistake for PvE, especially in encounters where it needs to be applied to multiple enemies.

Absolutely disagree. this cost increase needed to happen years ago

XVestigeXx · August 5

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

couldn't have said this better. Good job

XVestigeXx · August 5

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

forums are specifically for people to voice their opinions. The majority of customer's opinion is dk needs nerfed which is the most important opinion in any business and trumps all others

XVestigeXx · August 5

thanks Zos for not looking at any of Nb's class masteries and instead adding arbitrary, toxic DM nerfs to NB through the stealth changes and Expert hunter being a spamable detect pot and Rally being a debuff ability now that puts on timer on me that pulls me out of stealth.

I clearly made the mistake of not playing a DK or Sorc and instead chose an unapproved way to play. I will delete my NB post haste and will begin exploding groups of non DKs with my DK to atone for this grievous sin. Please forgive me for this treasonous act. Whips are clearly more fair and balanced to use then spec bows and blocking forever unceasingly more respectable than any other core mechanic. Praise Todd for showing me the light

I was just about to buy a year of eso plus too if there had been some positive NB changes. I am just beyond upset and regretting putting so many hours into this game. Just feels like a waste to me because nothing ever gets fixed about my class. I have no idea how you even have Necros around still.

Nb only class to have class mastery restrictions in PVP. REMOVE THEM. And fix Dark vigor and magicka flood NB passives to be active while the related abilities are slotted on either bar! I am sick of losing 4k hp and 2k stam and 1k mag just because I like my survival tools on my BB!!!!!!

Wuuffyy · August 5

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

forums are specifically for people to voice their opinions. The majority of customer's opinion is dk needs nerfed which is the most important opinion in any business and trumps all others

I’m not going to devolve this thread over you but I ask that you personally recognize that just because you ‘believe something’ doesn’t mean you represent the majority or that your opinion is the majority opinion or that you’re even ‘right’. Fine, whatever- do or don’t do that, it doesn’t really matter to me.

Feel free to read through any of my comments referencing DK, my stance should be fairly obvious. The fact I even pointed what I did out and the terminology I used should be a ‘deal sealer’ alone for what I believe. You are arguing a moot point with me, I promise to you.

At the end of the day, they can do what they want. But with that being said, they appear to believe DK is in a ‘healthy state’ for PvP- this is the point I was trying to relay in the original post.

Freelancer_ESO · August 5

I'm not sure the heal on Claw Fury is really necessary or the reduction to damage taken on Dragonfire Breath.

As a mediocre to bad player it doesn't feel great to end up in the situation where unless I am putting a ton of effort in I'd be better off just hitting one button.

(I'd note the Dragonfire Breath is still sometimes losing the visuals when attacking enemies)

On my Stamina WW I didn't hit any serious issues with sustain on the stuff on playing thru the new underwater stuff.

XVestigeXx · August 5

Wuuffyy wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

forums are specifically for people to voice their opinions. The majority of customer's opinion is dk needs nerfed which is the most important opinion in any business and trumps all others

I’m not going to devolve this thread over you but I ask that you personally recognize that just because you ‘believe something’ doesn’t mean you represent the majority or that your opinion is the majority opinion or that you’re even ‘right’. Fine, whatever- do or don’t do that, it doesn’t really matter to me.

Feel free to read through any of my comments referencing DK, my stance should be fairly obvious. The fact I even pointed what I did out and the terminology I used should be a ‘deal sealer’ alone for what I believe. You are arguing a moot point with me, I promise to you.

At the end of the day, they can do what they want. But with that being said, they appear to believe DK is in a ‘healthy state’ for PvP- this is the point I was trying to relay in the original post.

You can look all around at the forums, zone chats, guild chats, youtube, reddit and they all agree DK is wildly OP and needs to be nerfed to preserve the gameplay experience if the class refreshes are going to be 1 a year like they are turning out to be. Please don't be disingenuous about that. The devs can think whatever they want but at the end of the day its the players that pay for the game and they should get the changes they want the same as a customer at a restaurant. If Zos doesn't do something they will lose customers. Its pretty simple

Wuuffyy · August 5

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

forums are specifically for people to voice their opinions. The majority of customer's opinion is dk needs nerfed which is the most important opinion in any business and trumps all others

I’m not going to devolve this thread over you but I ask that you personally recognize that just because you ‘believe something’ doesn’t mean you represent the majority or that your opinion is the majority opinion or that you’re even ‘right’. Fine, whatever- do or don’t do that, it doesn’t really matter to me.

Feel free to read through any of my comments referencing DK, my stance should be fairly obvious. The fact I even pointed what I did out and the terminology I used should be a ‘deal sealer’ alone for what I believe. You are arguing a moot point with me, I promise to you.

At the end of the day, they can do what they want. But with that being said, they appear to believe DK is in a ‘healthy state’ for PvP- this is the point I was trying to relay in the original post.

You can look all around at the forums, zone chats, guild chats, youtube, reddit and they all agree DK is wildly OP and needs to be nerfed to preserve the gameplay experience if the class refreshes are going to be 1 a year like they are turning out to be. Please don't be disingenuous about that. The devs can think whatever they want but at the end of the day its the players that pay for the game and they should get the changes they want the same as a customer at a restaurant. If Zos doesn't do something they will lose customers. Its pretty simple

Tell ZOS that then, not me. Stop tagging me please and thank you! 🙏

Usureki · August 6

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

forums are specifically for people to voice their opinions. The majority of customer's opinion is dk needs nerfed which is the most important opinion in any business and trumps all others

I’m not going to devolve this thread over you but I ask that you personally recognize that just because you ‘believe something’ doesn’t mean you represent the majority or that your opinion is the majority opinion or that you’re even ‘right’. Fine, whatever- do or don’t do that, it doesn’t really matter to me.

Feel free to read through any of my comments referencing DK, my stance should be fairly obvious. The fact I even pointed what I did out and the terminology I used should be a ‘deal sealer’ alone for what I believe. You are arguing a moot point with me, I promise to you.

At the end of the day, they can do what they want. But with that being said, they appear to believe DK is in a ‘healthy state’ for PvP- this is the point I was trying to relay in the original post.

You can look all around at the forums, zone chats, guild chats, youtube, reddit and they all agree DK is wildly OP and needs to be nerfed to preserve the gameplay experience if the class refreshes are going to be 1 a year like they are turning out to be. Please don't be disingenuous about that. The devs can think whatever they want but at the end of the day its the players that pay for the game and they should get the changes they want the same as a customer at a restaurant. If Zos doesn't do something they will lose customers. Its pretty simple

This is quite right. After seeing 3 updates in a row that signals me that ZOS is stubborn in implementing their own messed up vision about keeping class balances in an utterly ruined state really makes me think why am I investing money and time to this nonsense. It's like I'm forced to play the game with and against nepo babies (DKs) who are subject to a different ruleset, they are playing a different game with more powerful options, this is not fair, this is maddening and saddening.

Wup_sa · August 6

Usureki wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

You don't 'suffer the consequences'. You just run sorc and potentially Arteum and you're set. In a '1 v 1' dueling parse or 'on a practice dummy', nothing meaningfully changes in these scenarios, even post-nerf. Even still, the stamina values from your own perspective do not make sense with PTS werewolf either.

I want to build 30k health on my wolf like I used to before DK rework... but I can't when a non-corro whip can easily land for 15-18k on a crit and a corro whip can near take my entire health bar with 27k. Even if I wanted to build less health, my heals across the board become worse in PvE and PvP in just about every way.

Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot.

These are mediums of defense (and offense via buffs) that everyone is able to adhere to that I am fully excluded from on a werewolf.

I get that you have disdain for werewolf, but please try to be logical and objective to at least what I'm clearly stating above. 'Being 1 bar' doesn't magically provide me some intangible benefit that makes up for these glaring deficiencies that the current, efficient PTS stat spread disallows appropriate remediation on.

You are saying to be logical and “objective” but every one of these issues that you are claiming are *relative* to DK. Dk doing 20k whips is unacceptable, yes. But do not base ww balance on something as bizarrely overpowered as DK. Ww is relatively more powerful than just about every class other than dk and maybe sorc.

These things here...

"Every other class has access to 'easy' defensive buffs like minor protection (I have to lose significant damage with my roar morph to access), minor resolve (which wolf is incapable of gaining), major protection from Monomyth (which I am incapable of properly using due to bugs especially; can never gain both components), sword and board backbar (which I cannot access without tanking my damage even further; I don't receive all defense passives from this), and much more.

Meanwhile, if I want to recoup more damage from my 'damage healing howl', I essentially use a heal that provides no meaningful healing value (even if I stack nothing but stam and wep/spell damage sets; definitely not enough to outheal 15-27k whips depending on setting) and up to a 12% increase in damage taken. Werewolf berserker (as mentioned) completely forgoes my major protection as well and my overarching reward for an 'even' major buff is a 1 second, highly unforgiving dot."

...are things I can't have/trade-off/'give up' on werewolf that aren't real trade-offs for DK (or really anyone in PvP anymore, to be honest).

As far as DK specifically goes:

I am hitting folks with 27k molten whips using a sword and board backbar, rallying cry, orders wrath, monomyth, a piece of trainee, and BloodSpawn via my DK with onsalught/corro (up to 15-19k without)... all of these are 'free' to me and the sword and board backbar (or ice staff) especially isn't a 'trade-off' a DK makes in PvP (you're just going to run it because you can/lack of better options).

Lastly, you say 'bizarrely overpowered (DK) is a bad comparison for balance discussion in any capacity' but according to the devs after a simple change to the 'free healing' on the 'softer-landing' morph of whip:

DK isn't even overpowered in PvP according to the dev team. In fact, according to them, DK is in a 'healthy' spot outside of I suppose half of the healing for the 5-stack, AoE whip morph.

They even shadow-buffed pyrebrand (could have been left out of the patch notes unintentionally):

Before-

After-

and of course, their channeled breath attack was 'rather significantly' buffed too.

So again, it seems like you're mistaken (or your perspective is shifted from the combat dev team’s line of thinking) because current DK must actually be the pinnacle of proper balance to them, for PvP.

Alright man. Youre pretending that 20k+ dmg on any skill 2-5 times in a row is something that was historically present in the game. That is not normal, and that should not be normal. We are here in the forum because we want to inform the devs that something they implemented is either broken, or messing up the way the game is played. Yes, if you do not pvp, and have not gotten essentially, GANKED, by a brawler class? Then yes with the bliss of ignorance, you can say that dk is in a healthy spot. But anybody not running dk will tell you that dk is not balanced.

But I mean hey, if you want to see the game die because you want to pretend that theres nothing wrong here, then to each their own.

Balance gives room for creativity. Hundreds of sets in the game and most of them unusable due to the unipolar balance structure of the game. You will never be able to compete with a class who’s every skill has 2-3 powerful functions and or distinct skill specific buffs.

Recently I have been playing my warden. All the main buffs need to be casted, there are no slottables. So you spend 5 gcd every 30 seconds keeping uptime on essential major and minor buffs. For DK? Every single one of those buffs either has full uptime due to being slottable, a long duration or the skill has a non buff related combat effect. For example, the major resolve buff can have a shield, incinerate is a delayed damage aoe explosion every 5 seconds (or a heal), wings gives expedition snare removal and 50% projectile damage reduction (ridiculous), molten armaments LASTS 1 MINUTE and does direct flame damage every couple of seconds.

My point here is that overtly useful combat functionalities are woven into every skill that provides a buff, plain and simple, no other class is really like that, not as powerful, and not as overloaded. I dont know if you have, but play the other classes and it should immediately be painfully obvious why every class is worse than dk by miles.

I don’t know what you’re talking about. I am just calling out the apparent combat team perspective multiple people have gathered from the lack of DK adjustments and that dev note.

You are welcome to perceive my own opinion however you’d like but if that is the conclusion you came to on my opinion on the matter… then I don’t know what else to really say.

Let’s just keep this thread to feedback on abilities and leave my or your opinion on DK out of it, especially when it isn’t relevant. I simply provided important information on apparent dev perspective while replying to the other troll’s poster’s comment on why I would reference DK in a comparative balance discussion.

forums are specifically for people to voice their opinions. The majority of customer's opinion is dk needs nerfed which is the most important opinion in any business and trumps all others

I’m not going to devolve this thread over you but I ask that you personally recognize that just because you ‘believe something’ doesn’t mean you represent the majority or that your opinion is the majority opinion or that you’re even ‘right’. Fine, whatever- do or don’t do that, it doesn’t really matter to me.

Feel free to read through any of my comments referencing DK, my stance should be fairly obvious. The fact I even pointed what I did out and the terminology I used should be a ‘deal sealer’ alone for what I believe. You are arguing a moot point with me, I promise to you.

At the end of the day, they can do what they want. But with that being said, they appear to believe DK is in a ‘healthy state’ for PvP- this is the point I was trying to relay in the original post.

You can look all around at the forums, zone chats, guild chats, youtube, reddit and they all agree DK is wildly OP and needs to be nerfed to preserve the gameplay experience if the class refreshes are going to be 1 a year like they are turning out to be. Please don't be disingenuous about that. The devs can think whatever they want but at the end of the day its the players that pay for the game and they should get the changes they want the same as a customer at a restaurant. If Zos doesn't do something they will lose customers. Its pretty simple

This is quite right. After seeing 3 updates in a row that signals me that ZOS is stubborn in implementing their own messed up vision about keeping class balances in an utterly ruined state really makes me think why am I investing money and time to this nonsense. It's like I'm forced to play the game with and against nepo babies (DKs) who are subject to a different ruleset, they are playing a different game with more powerful options, this is not fair, this is maddening and saddening.

Imagine if instead of full reworks and visual changes we just got good buffs to existing abilities with everyone having good classmasteries. They could have rolled out all the classes in one update then.

Luneca · August 6

I missed the memo, but why exactly is an unnamed 15% damage reduction needed on DK's breath skill? Because no one uses it? If that's the justification for such an insane buff, then can we start buffing up all the skills on the other classes that no one uses? Wait how about buffing the classes no one uses for a start?

Wuuffyy · August 6

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Please, if you are to keep this sustain model, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (obligatory tags).

Instead of even ‘thinking’ about this or simply choosing to 'break' multiple promises/standings on 'werewolf functionality' anyway in favor of 'no more adjustments'; and in the spirit of providing more insightful information that can better help the team 'correct' this perceived issue in a healthy way...

I recommend the following:

Undo the sustain changes largely or completely and instead process the complete removal of masteries for PvP (for at least the time being).

Why? Many of werewolves' prior tools that they were proven to be largely unsuccessful with (more damage, major/minor defile, 20 second dots, higher damage tooltips) were taken away to provide a high sustain playstyle.

This change worked in many areas conceptually as it provided a 'niche' that prevented overbearing damage (such as massive bursts, etc. like 'higher skilled playstyles' offer) in favor of whittling many opponents down over time especially due to resource upkeep, etc. This led to situations where I am fully unable to kill opponents keeping resources and healing up (especially sorcs and DKs) or doing nothing more than relatively-lightly 'poking' players that are in a group with 1 or more healers (as opposed to having the ability to 'save an ultimate' that translates to upwards of 50k in a couple of GCDs while in PvP and have any effect).

With the innate sustain removed, werewolf will continue to struggle even further against 'competent' opponents having what many would truly consider 'mediocre' in-kit damage tied in with a plethora of gimmicky uptimes that serve to rapidly drain resources or require steep trade-offs for seemingly marginal benefit to the user.

This leads to the overarching point of 'why adjust werewolf class masteries for PvP'?

These masteries allow further damage in PvP that helps place the middling damage in-kit over the top (potentially along with procs) and more importantly, the passive 'Conservation of Energy' is the pinnacle of 'infinite sustain' wolf on current live AND PTS. On live, I bite for 800 stam and as a result of having a mere ~20k stam and ~20k mag I receive 800 mag and 800 stamina every 2 seconds 'for free'; this coupled with your standard 'regen' ticks with little to no investment providing 600-1000 additional stam/mag recovery and I am essentially gaining resources while attacking. Even on PTS, with 'Conservation of Energy' in an extended 1 v 1 situation, 'skill spam' via bite for 1600 stam is rewarded with roughly 1400-1800 stam per 2 seconds (CoE and Regen tick) alongside another 800 per 2 seconds for magicka ... more than enough to not bat an eye at sustain and nullify the resource penalty nearly entirely.

In other words, we received 2 defining nerfs (stamina cost and magicka cost increases) which subsequently are seemingly nullified by the one and only mastery passive, Conservation of Energy, that gives these resources and more in spades.

Another important point to make-

Werewolf is essentially 'pigeonholed' into building health, even via an 'off meta' playstyle. I believe this could be considered 'fine' as it is a way for werewolf to 'be survivable' given that many of their options to receive even the most basic of defensive buffs (major, minor protection as an example) are locked behind certain morphs and they 'lack' the basics in PvP such as minor resolve or a 'sword and board backbar' option. HOWEVER, I believe there are important distinctions that should be made when receiving healing-

'Bite' spam as it is now is what allows a CP200 werewolf to spec 40k into health, go into BGs, and kill average players with the bite spam alone. This can certainly be attributed to its innate healing potential moreso than anything else. My recommendation to curb lower APM success and to allow werewolves to be 'more killable' when in your space is to remove about 20-25% of the healing from bite, DON'T remove any healing from the Hircine's bounty burst heal, and actually increase the Hircine's Bounty and Hircine's Fortitude from current live values by about 15-20%. Why?

This vastly removes much of the 'free' healing that is associated with still-low bite cost that rewards a 'spam'/low-APM/'low skill' playstyle while enabling the user themselves more responsiveness to the very common, high instances of burst (again, upwards of 50k damage in a couple of GCDs) and overall transfers a portion of the removed healing from bite BACK into a 'healthy cost' skill (4k+ mag) whose sustain is only remediated via either Rampage or recovery investment.

Lastly, I can attest to the unviability of 'Hircine's Rage' in nearly all, realistic PvP scenarios. This heal, with a tooltip of about 20% less than a breath of life, simply does too little to justify reducing nearly all of my healing and survivability across the board. If you want the potential to enable viable alternative playstyles such as ones that focus on wep and spell damage along with higher sustain, this morph (which seemingly has such a low tooltip simply as it wasn't adjusted to compensate for various wep/spell damage nerfs over several patches) needs to at least tooltip for a standard healing spammable.

heaven13 · August 6

I've been sitting on my feelings for a few days. Prior to the layoffs, I was feeling really optimistic about the direction the game was finally going. It felt like the game was moving back towards most classes being viable for different roles; it was going to be good to be pure class again, devs seemed to recognize that one size fits all wasn't what people wanted. After the layoffs, I felt concerned but willing to see what the devs could do with what they had learned and who they had left to implement the changes they'd recognized as healthy for the game.

Now though? Templar gets maybe 1 spot on a roster, as a healer. Sorc gets maybe 1 spot on a roster, as a tank. Otherwise, play something else. These passive changes are honestly horrible and, as other people have already pointed out, contradict a lot of what these two classes need based on existing abilities, synergies, and pain points. It feels like ZoS is doubling down on this change and the fact that the class refresh schedules are completely up in the air makes it even worse.

Wolfchild07 · August 7

I made one of my mag breton stick wielders into werewolf so she could use ranged attacks and then switch to werewolf for fun. These sustain nerfs are going to force her to use boring, lame, heavy attacks too much. Not fun!

I agree with other people on giving werewolf the arcanist treatment.

I don’t care much for PvP, you have battle spirit, use it.