Class balance for update 51

seventy_kg · August 4

After reading the patch notes, I think most people's primary emotion is simply...rage

but trying to stay constructive here and the following is my feedback:
1. templar does no damage in both pvp and pve, why nerf it even more?
2. why is warden not even mentioned? is warden somehow considerer perfectly balanced? because it struggles in pvp just as much as plar
3. major force in potions is an outrageous mistake, over the years we went from only getting major force in trial sets, for limited uptime, to getting it in mythics, with heavy downsides, to mythics with no downsides, to now just getting it for free...why? major force might be the strongest buff in pvp and you are just giving it to everyone?
4. shield stacking needs a way bigger nerf than this nonsense, and please listen to us pvpers when we say no heal should scale off max health

This might be one of the worse patch notes ever, and i see zero mentioning of the so called temporary measures for underpowered classes awaiting their rework

you cant seriously think the community is ok with this as the first patch notes after the layoff fiasco?

Pinktraining · August 4

Just like the developers have said to Sorc players in the past: "If you don't like your skills, you should replace them with a subclass system."

Choosing to play Sorc or Templar is your own fault; no one is forcing you to play them.

Okay, honestly, I didn't expect them to actually nerf Sorc and Templar without any compensation. This change was absolutely ill-considered and lacks a basic understanding of these two classes.

seventy_kg · August 4

Pinktraining wrote: »

Just like the developers have said to Sorc players in the past: "If you don't like your skills, you should replace them with a subclass system."

Choosing to play Sorc or Templar is your own fault; no one is forcing you to play them.

Okay, honestly, I didn't expect them to actually nerf Sorc and Templar without any compensation. This change was absolutely ill-considered and lacks a basic understanding of these two classes.

well for sorc it wasnt really a nerf cuz it was a unique minor breach level buff, but templar got a real nerf

Luneca · August 4

I can't wait to see how high my glass DK can whip with major force. I had never breached the 30K mark on a player (because I am never getting emp). Can't wait to see how far it can be pushed and, conversely, how much more tankier I can become on my DK without dropping damage.

Nice. But hey, at least my whip no longer heals me for 22K every time I do it. It just does it around 13K. Nice ZOS.

seventy_kg · August 4

what is the point of war horn if everyone has 100% major force uptime, or resto ult?

rk1101320 · August 4

Im playing back after 5y, and what i can say is pvp is super balanced and super healthy, im playing 73k health ww and i have lot of fun

ADarklore · August 4

kafedristoran wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

This change was absolutely ill-considered and lacks a basic understanding of these two classes.

Brian Wheeler Lead PvP Designer

that's it

Well, you know, they don't need a PvP Designer on ES6.

XVestigeXx · August 4

I would add to this that the changes to stealth and invis as well as rally now pulling you out of stealth, and especially expert hunter being made into a ability stealth detect with 43.5m of range have nerfed nightblade even further. Nightblade is in such a rough spot and was the only class to get battle spirit restrictions on their class masteries and now they are giving everyone an amazing bar buffer thats also a spammable stealth detect pot that can turn off NB's main iconic ability. When will NB get a button to turn off sorc streak in a 43.5m radius? or to turn off DK's block passives that allow them to just perma block? Or an ability to turn off dmg shields? its so stupid. NB is the only class in the entire game that eternally gets these systemic counters created without any consolation. I have felt like NB has so much predujiced leveled against it for no reason that I rather they just remove cloak altogether and give me streak instead or some better version of dark cloak instead of invis because its getting to the point where Im just done with ESO because my class sucks and people will complain about invis and that moaning will get heard and addressed but not DK the class that stands in the clouds while everyone else is treading water

NovelliESO · August 5

seventy_kg wrote: »

After reading the patch notes, I think most people's primary emotion is simply...rage

but trying to stay constructive here and the following is my feedback:
1. templar does no damage in both pvp and pve, why nerf it even more?
2. why is warden not even mentioned? is warden somehow considerer perfectly balanced? because it struggles in pvp just as much as plar
3. major force in potions is an outrageous mistake, over the years we went from only getting major force in trial sets, for limited uptime, to getting it in mythics, with heavy downsides, to mythics with no downsides, to now just getting it for free...why? major force might be the strongest buff in pvp and you are just giving it to everyone?
4. shield stacking needs a way bigger nerf than this nonsense, and please listen to us pvpers when we say no heal should scale off max health

This might be one of the worse patch notes ever, and i see zero mentioning of the so called temporary measures for underpowered classes awaiting their rework

you cant seriously think the community is ok with this as the first patch notes after the layoff fiasco?

I'll respond to all of these for the hell of it.

1. The only templar "nerf" was to the unique source of the prior minor sorcery in place of the now even more unique armor buff, unless I'm missing something. For PvE damage this is obviously a nerf, but makes a single templar in group even more important than it was before, since every 12 man group will also have a DK for what templar lost, resulting in a stronger comp overall. Still, a loss to DPS, but it seems to just be moving to a support role, which, plenty of classes have different scenarios in which they perform better, this is just one of them. For PvP I wouldn't call this a nerf, just a trade off, and in group play it's just a straight up buff obviously if you have a DK with you.
2. MOST balance changes are done from a PvE perspective AFAIK, ones done solely for PvP are done only if something is massively underperforming or overperforming, and warden isn't in either of those, I mean DK is absurdly strong right now and it still hasn't been touched for some reason.
3. Yeah, just more power creep, but IMO it doesn't really change much of anything, gankers typically already have it from a mythic, they can now go force pots and swap to a different mythic, but power creep will always exist for whatever reason.
4. Shield stacking does need a nerf, but ESO typically does change too much too fast, sometimes nerfing things too hard. When the huge DoT patch happened where almost all DoT damage was massively buffed, it was then nerfed so heavily it wasn't used anymore. I am a fan of nerfing and buffing things when they need to be, but doing it slowly. If it still needs a nerf they should, but capping 12 man groups to 60% is pretty nice. I can speak from experience as someone who almost exclusively fights groups of 12 or higher. You would see people running around with more shielding than HP pretty often, nerfing that by 40% or more is huge and a great starting point, just like the 33% heal nerf was. Heals shouldn't scale off max HP, I can agree there.

I think these notes are fine, the only thing I would have wanted is DK nerfs, aside from it not having other things that the community wanted like the warden rework or the trial, I don't see anything I particularly dislike, just more things I wish were part of the notes. There were no balance changes I read and thought were bad as far as I remember.

aLi3nZ · August 5

Nerf wings on dk and remove the heal entirely from the whip. DK has enough heals without it. Try that first. Maybe nerf heart of flame a little if still OP.

For a start.

WW nerf seems resonable but will need to see how it plays out. I have a pure sorc conservation of energy warewolf myself.

seventy_kg · August 5

NovelliESO wrote: »

seventy_kg wrote: »

After reading the patch notes, I think most people's primary emotion is simply...rage

but trying to stay constructive here and the following is my feedback:
1. templar does no damage in both pvp and pve, why nerf it even more?
2. why is warden not even mentioned? is warden somehow considerer perfectly balanced? because it struggles in pvp just as much as plar
3. major force in potions is an outrageous mistake, over the years we went from only getting major force in trial sets, for limited uptime, to getting it in mythics, with heavy downsides, to mythics with no downsides, to now just getting it for free...why? major force might be the strongest buff in pvp and you are just giving it to everyone?
4. shield stacking needs a way bigger nerf than this nonsense, and please listen to us pvpers when we say no heal should scale off max health

This might be one of the worse patch notes ever, and i see zero mentioning of the so called temporary measures for underpowered classes awaiting their rework

you cant seriously think the community is ok with this as the first patch notes after the layoff fiasco?

I'll respond to all of these for the hell of it.

1. The only templar "nerf" was to the unique source of the prior minor sorcery in place of the now even more unique armor buff, unless I'm missing something. For PvE damage this is obviously a nerf, but makes a single templar in group even more important than it was before, since every 12 man group will also have a DK for what templar lost, resulting in a stronger comp overall. Still, a loss to DPS, but it seems to just be moving to a support role, which, plenty of classes have different scenarios in which they perform better, this is just one of them. For PvP I wouldn't call this a nerf, just a trade off, and in group play it's just a straight up buff obviously if you have a DK with you.
2. MOST balance changes are done from a PvE perspective AFAIK, ones done solely for PvP are done only if something is massively underperforming or overperforming, and warden isn't in either of those, I mean DK is absurdly strong right now and it still hasn't been touched for some reason.
3. Yeah, just more power creep, but IMO it doesn't really change much of anything, gankers typically already have it from a mythic, they can now go force pots and swap to a different mythic, but power creep will always exist for whatever reason.
4. Shield stacking does need a nerf, but ESO typically does change too much too fast, sometimes nerfing things too hard. When the huge DoT patch happened where almost all DoT damage was massively buffed, it was then nerfed so heavily it wasn't used anymore. I am a fan of nerfing and buffing things when they need to be, but doing it slowly. If it still needs a nerf they should, but capping 12 man groups to 60% is pretty nice. I can speak from experience as someone who almost exclusively fights groups of 12 or higher. You would see people running around with more shielding than HP pretty often, nerfing that by 40% or more is huge and a great starting point, just like the 33% heal nerf was. Heals shouldn't scale off max HP, I can agree there.

I think these notes are fine, the only thing I would have wanted is DK nerfs, aside from it not having other things that the community wanted like the warden rework or the trial, I don't see anything I particularly dislike, just more things I wish were part of the notes. There were no balance changes I read and thought were bad as far as I remember.

you are assuming pvp builds build mostly around group play which just isnt true. most pvp builds are solo builds or built to be viable solo primarily, even small scalers arent constantly in coordinated groups. and if you are gonna argue major force is fine then why do you want dk nerfs? because this is quitely literally a dk buff because dks do not need tripots in the slightest and now their damage ceiling is even higher being able to take off monomyth, not that im gonna complain as a dk main

tbh you sound like a ball group player, and theres nothing wrong with that. but 1vx and small scale builds do need to be viable solo to start with, and plar and warden are not. the problem with plar is beyond one line of armor or pen, but in a patch where half of cyrodiil is abusing onslaught, armor is the least useful buff for a class that is so severely underperforming

all i can say is, if you tried building a 1vx plar or warden this patch or you are a plar or warden main...you would be furious reading these patch notes. because if you think of plar as a valuable support class, i promise you thats what you will see in high mmr bg's, praying plars walking around their dks and sorcs

NovelliESO · August 5

seventy_kg wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

seventy_kg wrote: »

After reading the patch notes, I think most people's primary emotion is simply...rage

but trying to stay constructive here and the following is my feedback:
1. templar does no damage in both pvp and pve, why nerf it even more?
2. why is warden not even mentioned? is warden somehow considerer perfectly balanced? because it struggles in pvp just as much as plar
3. major force in potions is an outrageous mistake, over the years we went from only getting major force in trial sets, for limited uptime, to getting it in mythics, with heavy downsides, to mythics with no downsides, to now just getting it for free...why? major force might be the strongest buff in pvp and you are just giving it to everyone?
4. shield stacking needs a way bigger nerf than this nonsense, and please listen to us pvpers when we say no heal should scale off max health

This might be one of the worse patch notes ever, and i see zero mentioning of the so called temporary measures for underpowered classes awaiting their rework

you cant seriously think the community is ok with this as the first patch notes after the layoff fiasco?

I'll respond to all of these for the hell of it.

1. The only templar "nerf" was to the unique source of the prior minor sorcery in place of the now even more unique armor buff, unless I'm missing something. For PvE damage this is obviously a nerf, but makes a single templar in group even more important than it was before, since every 12 man group will also have a DK for what templar lost, resulting in a stronger comp overall. Still, a loss to DPS, but it seems to just be moving to a support role, which, plenty of classes have different scenarios in which they perform better, this is just one of them. For PvP I wouldn't call this a nerf, just a trade off, and in group play it's just a straight up buff obviously if you have a DK with you.
2. MOST balance changes are done from a PvE perspective AFAIK, ones done solely for PvP are done only if something is massively underperforming or overperforming, and warden isn't in either of those, I mean DK is absurdly strong right now and it still hasn't been touched for some reason.
3. Yeah, just more power creep, but IMO it doesn't really change much of anything, gankers typically already have it from a mythic, they can now go force pots and swap to a different mythic, but power creep will always exist for whatever reason.
4. Shield stacking does need a nerf, but ESO typically does change too much too fast, sometimes nerfing things too hard. When the huge DoT patch happened where almost all DoT damage was massively buffed, it was then nerfed so heavily it wasn't used anymore. I am a fan of nerfing and buffing things when they need to be, but doing it slowly. If it still needs a nerf they should, but capping 12 man groups to 60% is pretty nice. I can speak from experience as someone who almost exclusively fights groups of 12 or higher. You would see people running around with more shielding than HP pretty often, nerfing that by 40% or more is huge and a great starting point, just like the 33% heal nerf was. Heals shouldn't scale off max HP, I can agree there.

I think these notes are fine, the only thing I would have wanted is DK nerfs, aside from it not having other things that the community wanted like the warden rework or the trial, I don't see anything I particularly dislike, just more things I wish were part of the notes. There were no balance changes I read and thought were bad as far as I remember.

you are assuming pvp builds build mostly around group play which just isnt true. most pvp builds are solo builds or built to be viable solo primarily, even small scalers arent constantly in coordinated groups. and if you are gonna argue major force is fine then why do you want dk nerfs? because this is quitely literally a dk buff because dks do not need tripots in the slightest and now their damage ceiling is even higher being able to take off monomyth, not that im gonna complain as a dk main

tbh you sound like a ball group player, and theres nothing wrong with that. but 1vx and small scale builds do need to be viable solo to start with, and plar and warden are not. the problem with plar is beyond one line of armor or pen, but in a patch where half of cyrodiil is abusing onslaught, armor is the least useful buff for a class that is so severely underperforming

all i can say is, if you tried building a 1vx plar or warden this patch or you are a plar or warden main...you would be furious reading these patch notes. because if you think of plar as a valuable support class, i promise you thats what you will see in high mmr bg's, praying plars walking around their dks and sorcs

Nope, didn't make that assumption at all, did you even read what I posted? Why do people on the forums engage in such bad faith discussion? I literally said "For PvP I wouldn't call this a nerf, just a trade off, and in group play" do you know what AND in this sentence means? It means in addition to it being a trade off solo, it's a buff in group play, try actually reading before engaging.

On to your second nonsense point. I didn't say major force is fine, you again, aren't even reading what you are engaging with, try it sometime. I said it doesn't really change much, major force is extremely readily available through multiple sources. Read what is being typed before you respond.

Thank you for trying to tell me about what I would see in high MMR BGs as if I haven't been at the highest MMR for the entirety of their release. Unlike you I actually read what you wrote, so I'll respond to your point about solo and small scale as well. You complained I seem to be coming at this from a group perspective even though I addressed more than just group play, you seem to be coming at this from a small group perspective, which guess what, some things are going to be better than others for different scenarios, I said that before, that is how it's always been. I know plenty of wardens and plars that can go around 1vxing fine, but 1vx depends on the people you decide to 1vx against and is a silly concept to be hyper fixated on to begin with. Multiple people will generally kill you unless you are built to be tanky, built to escape on a sorc or nb, or you are fighting people who are just bad at PvP. Your argument that classes need to be viable solo is silly and based on nothing but your own personal wants. Anyone can make the argument that it is viable solo anyway, anything is, but just as I said before, some things will underperform in certain areas and outperform in others. Templar may not be good solo, but there is no NEED to make anything viable solo, this is an MMO. It is impossible to balance every single class on all being competitive solo while also making them stand out individually in their respective aspects, some things will always be weaker or stronger for PvE healing/dps/tanking and PvP healing/dps etc.

ketsparrowhawk · August 5

My Plar already can't die. Want damage pls