Critical Surge just got a massive nerf

hoangdz · August 3

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

AdonisJorge · August 3

hoangdz wrote: »

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

Just play DK, maybe that is the intention because he got no meaningful nerf and Sorc an WW got

Pinktraining · August 4

Just like the developers have said to Sorc players in the past: "If you don't like your skills, you should replace them with a subclass system."

Choosing to play Sorc is your own choice; no one is forcing you to play a Sorc.

Okay, honestly, I didn't expect them to actually nerf Sorc and Templar without any compensation. This change was absolutely ill-considered and lacks a basic understanding of these two classes.

Vaqual · August 4

Number of issues has been successfully increased.

While I could personally live with that change, I can see why it would annoy a lot of people. I suspect a change is planned for Crit Surge in the rework, otherwise this would be too random.

Wuuffyy · August 4

AdonisJorge wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

Just play DK, maybe that is the intention because he got no meaningful nerf and Sorc an WW got

Sorc still has conservation of energy. They’re chilling tbh.

Streaking away, full shields up, not a sustain set in the world to drag their damage down.

Luneca · August 4

On my sorc where my crit used to be at 71% , over the past 5 years its dropped to 34% on the same build. And now this. Crit surge is essentially just a buff source to me at this point anyway, but why implement a mechanic in a class, build around it, then nerf anytihng that supports it?

It makes no sense that classes that haven't been reworked are getting nerfed. But again, I am not surprised considering the history of the changes, even if we only at this year...

Turtle_Bot · August 4

hoangdz wrote: »

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

This was pointed out as a terrible change, with full in-depth explanations, when first proposed and ZOS still went ahead and implemented it as proposed without ANY adjustments at all.

I would comment further on why this change in particular is such an uninformed, biased and objectively stupid change to make, but to do so would get me banned for "bashing" despite this change being deserving of such responses with how blatantly biased and uninformed it is, especially given the objective and in-depth feedback that was shared back when this change was first proposed that has been completely, blatantly, ignored.

Vaqual wrote: »

Number of issues has been successfully increased.

While I could personally live with that change, I can see why it would annoy a lot of people. I suspect a change is planned for Crit Surge in the rework, otherwise this would be too random.

I would understand making this change if we were still on the original refresh schedule and Sorc was up for being refreshed within the next few months, but at the current (proposed/target, not even guaranteed) rate that the refreshes are going, it looks like it will maybe be the end of 2027, more likely sometime 2028 (if at all) that Sorc will be getting it's refresh and the "fixes" that are supposed to make this change make sense.

Udrath · August 4

I don’t agree with the change but I don’t see it as a MASSIVE nerf, it’s 6% crit chance. Now sorc can drop sharpened weapons/ 3 light armor/lover Mundas if they’re using it for something else. 6% is one precise dagger or two lines of crit chance on gear.

hoangdz · August 4

Udrath wrote: »

I don’t agree with the change but I don’t see it as a MASSIVE nerf, it’s 6% crit chance. Now sorc can drop sharpened weapons/ 3 light armor/lover Mundas if they’re using it for something else. 6% is one precise dagger or two lines of crit chance on gear.

6% crit chance is MUCH better than 2974 pen. That 6% dagger only applies to front bar, while the 6% minor prophecy applies to your back bar healing as well. This new pen minor buff is technically applied to both bars, but do you need that pen on your defensive bar more or the crit chance that actually lets you crit heal more?

Tannus15 · August 4

crit surge should have the crit requirement removed. it doesn't fit with anything that sorc does these days.

sorc have no crit buffs and no crit damage buffs. they don't even have access to minor force.

I hope this is something that is addressed in the rework, but i can live with it for now.

Savagejack · August 4

We sure appreciate your feedback, guys. And we will ignore all of it. Yeah!

tomofhyrule · August 4

Tannus15 wrote: »

crit surge should have the crit requirement removed. it doesn't fit with anything that sorc does these days.

sorc have no crit buffs and no crit damage buffs. they don't even have access to minor force.

I hope this is something that is addressed in the rework, but i can live with it for now.

Crit Surge always felt awkward as a heal.

It seems the OG idea was for Crit to be a mag-focused thing since Crit was tied to light armor and Sorcs were the OG mag DPS. But after layer and layer of hybridization, that’s kinda orphaned by now. I honestly have a rough tome playing my Sorc since the heals are all conditional or delayed or something (unless you have flappy out, which ugh). I do hope that gets a change in the rework.

I hope that the Sorc rework can let me live my Force Lightning Sith Lord dreams without being screwed by awkwardly being forced into pets. But that would assume the other reworks are coming…

Jabbs_Giggity · August 4

hoangdz wrote: »

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

Pen should definitely have gone to NB. They do not need more crit.

tsaescishoeshiner · August 4

With the 1-second cooldown and the high number of damage sources you'll have in most settings, that extra crit chance may not make much difference. And in a group, you'll get the buff from a Nightblade anyway.

But the change to a penetration passive is overall a nerf for group PvE and certain solo settings.

RedMamba · August 4

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

HatchetHaro · August 4

RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.

Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events

Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:

with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds
without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:

with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds
without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.

hoangdz · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.

It isn't invisible for PvP though

hoangdz · August 4

RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It is a massive nerf though for PvP. My build currently has 33.4% crit rate with 1 line of crit from set bonus. On PTS it's 27.4%, all for 2.9k pen that I don't even need because I use Onslaught which gives 100% pen vs any opponent. So now I have to drop Shadow for Thief to gain back that crit chance, which means losing damage because the pen was already not needed.

HatchetHaro · August 4

hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though

Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.

hoangdz · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »
hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though
Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.

It does matter because with Onslaught, I can use Battleaxes instead of mauls, and Nirnhoned trait instead of Sharpened. I also don't need to source Major Breach for my build because I have 100% penetration already. At this point, I have fully maximized 3 offensive stats (pen, crit damage, weapon damage) so that 6% crit is infinitely more valuable to me than 3k pen because it's the only remaining offensive stat that I can still increase.

So yea, losing that 6% crit definitely hurts lol.

Luneca · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »
hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though
Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.

There's a reason why you will see both templar and sorcs come out in opposition with the changes. It's because it's in no real case a buff. 3K more resistances or penetration is such a small number that I could just make a minor build decision elsewhere and obtain the same power -- but if given the option, I wouldn't.

The changes ultimately cut damage and healing on both classes through different means, in exchange for a buff that might be useful.

I say might because if a sorc has that penetration against my DK in all LA with around 9K-11K resistances, it's a worthless debuff vs. me and provides zero value versus crit. Conversely on a glass templar, the resistances also provide zero value versus WD/SD which augment burst healing and damage -- two things that suck hard on the class and are needed to actually have "defense" on templar because it doesn't have HP% healing. Sorc changes also cutting healing from not just surge, but crit burst healing; the significance depending on the build.

And this extends to PvE as well. Let's say I go to Infinite Archive solo. Do I really care about resistances or penetration there to the extent that I'd give up WD or crit? No.

So where exactly is this better? And you can only say it's "better" in a group, though it would be better to say it's "useful" only in a group since it's still not a buff versus what was previously there. It also is a problem if the group doesn't have the other classes that supposedly had overlapping buffs, in that case it's a nerf.

So we're exchanging power that was better overall and everywhere and for every build to gain a situational powerup in an extremely niche setting that we wouldn't be in often and a majority of players won't be in? And this is supposed to be either a buff or an equivalent exchange that ZOS is going for?

I think not.

Pinktraining · August 4

Luneca wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though
Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.
There's a reason why you will see both templar and sorcs come out in opposition with the changes. It's because it's in no real case a buff. 3K more resistances or penetration is such a small number that I could just make a minor build decision elsewhere and obtain the same power -- but if given the option, I wouldn't.

The changes ultimately cut damage and healing on both classes through different means, in exchange for a buff that might be useful.

I say might because if a sorc has that penetration against my DK in all LA with around 9K-11K resistances, it's a worthless debuff vs. me and provides zero value versus crit. Conversely on a glass templar, the resistances also provide zero value versus WD/SD which augment burst healing and damage -- two things that suck hard on the class and are needed to actually have "defense" on templar because it doesn't have HP% healing. Sorc changes also cutting healing from not just surge, but crit burst healing; the significance depending on the build.

And this extends to PvE as well. Let's say I go to Infinite Archive solo. Do I really care about resistances or penetration there to the extent that I'd give up WD or crit? No.

So where exactly is this better? And you can only say it's "better" in a group, though it would be better to say it's "useful" only in a group since it's still not a buff versus what was previously there. It also is a problem if the group doesn't have the other classes that supposedly had overlapping buffs, in that case it's a nerf.

So we're exchanging power that was better overall and everywhere and for every build to gain a situational powerup in an extremely niche setting that we wouldn't be in often and a majority of players won't be in? And this is supposed to be either a buff or an equivalent exchange that ZOS is going for?

I think not.

That's a great rebuttal!

This person also expressed a similar opinion here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697238/why-give-sorc-so-many-redundant-abilities#latest

Honestly, I think he's just happy to see Sorc and Templar get nerfed. He keeps touting that 3000 penetration/armor will increase team composition diversity, but when asked to provide a Trial team composition, he can only offer a composition similar to the mainstream meta predicted by others, and those predicting the mainstream meta are precisely the ones who oppose this change. In other words, even he doesn't know how to translate that 3000 penetration/armor into actual team benefits.

Umbracat449 · 12:12AM

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

This was pointed out as a terrible change, with full in-depth explanations, when first proposed and ZOS still went ahead and implemented it as proposed without ANY adjustments at all.

I would comment further on why this change in particular is such an uninformed, biased and objectively stupid change to make, but to do so would get me banned for "bashing" despite this change being deserving of such responses with how blatantly biased and uninformed it is, especially given the objective and in-depth feedback that was shared back when this change was first proposed that has been completely, blatantly, ignored.

Vaqual wrote: »

Number of issues has been successfully increased.

While I could personally live with that change, I can see why it would annoy a lot of people. I suspect a change is planned for Crit Surge in the rework, otherwise this would be too random.

I would understand making this change if we were still on the original refresh schedule and Sorc was up for being refreshed within the next few months, but at the current (proposed/target, not even guaranteed) rate that the refreshes are going, it looks like it will maybe be the end of 2027, more likely sometime 2028 (if at all) that Sorc will be getting it's refresh and the "fixes" that are supposed to make this change make sense.

Who's threatening to ban you? That would be insane. We need you in here. Argh I'm probably at risk now.

HatchetHaro · 12:35AM

Pinktraining wrote: »
Luneca wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though
Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.
There's a reason why you will see both templar and sorcs come out in opposition with the changes. It's because it's in no real case a buff. 3K more resistances or penetration is such a small number that I could just make a minor build decision elsewhere and obtain the same power -- but if given the option, I wouldn't.

The changes ultimately cut damage and healing on both classes through different means, in exchange for a buff that might be useful.

I say might because if a sorc has that penetration against my DK in all LA with around 9K-11K resistances, it's a worthless debuff vs. me and provides zero value versus crit. Conversely on a glass templar, the resistances also provide zero value versus WD/SD which augment burst healing and damage -- two things that suck hard on the class and are needed to actually have "defense" on templar because it doesn't have HP% healing. Sorc changes also cutting healing from not just surge, but crit burst healing; the significance depending on the build.

And this extends to PvE as well. Let's say I go to Infinite Archive solo. Do I really care about resistances or penetration there to the extent that I'd give up WD or crit? No.

So where exactly is this better? And you can only say it's "better" in a group, though it would be better to say it's "useful" only in a group since it's still not a buff versus what was previously there. It also is a problem if the group doesn't have the other classes that supposedly had overlapping buffs, in that case it's a nerf.

So we're exchanging power that was better overall and everywhere and for every build to gain a situational powerup in an extremely niche setting that we wouldn't be in often and a majority of players won't be in? And this is supposed to be either a buff or an equivalent exchange that ZOS is going for?

I think not.
That's a great rebuttal!

This person also expressed a similar opinion here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697238/why-give-sorc-so-many-redundant-abilities#latest

Honestly, I think he's just happy to see Sorc and Templar get nerfed. He keeps touting that 3000 penetration/armor will increase team composition diversity, but when asked to provide a Trial team composition, he can only offer a composition similar to the mainstream meta predicted by others, and those predicting the mainstream meta are precisely the ones who oppose this change. In other words, even he doesn't know how to translate that 3000 penetration/armor into actual team benefits.

I did translate that 2974 Pen into actual team benefits, though. Namely, by taking Alkosh off our DK and letting them parse harder. That's the whole point I've been making, and ignoring it for the convenience of your argument doesn't change the fact that the new Exploitation passive would offer more to groups. Bringing your argument against me into a new thread would not change that.

Pinktraining · 12:46AM

HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »
Luneca wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though
Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.
There's a reason why you will see both templar and sorcs come out in opposition with the changes. It's because it's in no real case a buff. 3K more resistances or penetration is such a small number that I could just make a minor build decision elsewhere and obtain the same power -- but if given the option, I wouldn't.

The changes ultimately cut damage and healing on both classes through different means, in exchange for a buff that might be useful.

I say might because if a sorc has that penetration against my DK in all LA with around 9K-11K resistances, it's a worthless debuff vs. me and provides zero value versus crit. Conversely on a glass templar, the resistances also provide zero value versus WD/SD which augment burst healing and damage -- two things that suck hard on the class and are needed to actually have "defense" on templar because it doesn't have HP% healing. Sorc changes also cutting healing from not just surge, but crit burst healing; the significance depending on the build.

And this extends to PvE as well. Let's say I go to Infinite Archive solo. Do I really care about resistances or penetration there to the extent that I'd give up WD or crit? No.

So where exactly is this better? And you can only say it's "better" in a group, though it would be better to say it's "useful" only in a group since it's still not a buff versus what was previously there. It also is a problem if the group doesn't have the other classes that supposedly had overlapping buffs, in that case it's a nerf.

So we're exchanging power that was better overall and everywhere and for every build to gain a situational powerup in an extremely niche setting that we wouldn't be in often and a majority of players won't be in? And this is supposed to be either a buff or an equivalent exchange that ZOS is going for?

I think not.
That's a great rebuttal!

This person also expressed a similar opinion here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697238/why-give-sorc-so-many-redundant-abilities#latest

Honestly, I think he's just happy to see Sorc and Templar get nerfed. He keeps touting that 3000 penetration/armor will increase team composition diversity, but when asked to provide a Trial team composition, he can only offer a composition similar to the mainstream meta predicted by others, and those predicting the mainstream meta are precisely the ones who oppose this change. In other words, even he doesn't know how to translate that 3000 penetration/armor into actual team benefits.
I did translate that 2974 Pen into actual team benefits, though. Namely, by taking Alkosh off our DK and letting them parse harder. That's the whole point I've been making, and ignoring it for the convenience of your argument doesn't change the fact that the new Exploitation passive would offer more to groups. Bringing your argument against me into a new thread would not change that.

No, you haven't. You've just repeatedly demonstrated how much a loss of 6% critical (or 10% damage) is to a Sorc/Temple, and many people have already refuted you.

HatchetHaro · 12:53AM

Pinktraining wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »
Luneca wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
hoangdz wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
RedMamba wrote: »

It got a 6% nerf.......lol massive is huge overstatement

It didn't even get a 6% nerf.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming a low-pressure PvP environment where a Sorcerer is dishing out 3 damage events per second (light attack + skill + enchantment/status effect) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 84.25% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.19 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 78.40% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.28 seconds

That's just a 0.09-second delay.

Increasing this to 5 damage events per second (light attack + Bound Armaments proc) at 40% base crit:
with Minor Prophecy, at 46% crit: 95.41% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.05 seconds

without Prophecy, at 40% crit: 92.22% chance to proc Crit Surge every second, or about once every 1.08 seconds

A 0.03-second delay is not even noticeable to most people.

In PvE, we're looking at a way higher base crit chance and way more damage events per second; the 6% crit chance difference there for proccing Crit Surge is invisible.
It isn't invisible for PvP though
Of course it's not! But is it really going to break your build at this point?

Keep in mind, you also get 2974 penetration to deal more damage with! That's about 6% more damage. Unless you're reaching Pen cap in PvP (and some of your enemies' builds can reach 33k resists), none of that Pen stat is wasted.

No contest if you use Onslaught, but at the same time, does it matter then? It's also a group buff. You're granting your group extra damage too, and if there's a NB in group, you get all your crit back.
There's a reason why you will see both templar and sorcs come out in opposition with the changes. It's because it's in no real case a buff. 3K more resistances or penetration is such a small number that I could just make a minor build decision elsewhere and obtain the same power -- but if given the option, I wouldn't.

The changes ultimately cut damage and healing on both classes through different means, in exchange for a buff that might be useful.

I say might because if a sorc has that penetration against my DK in all LA with around 9K-11K resistances, it's a worthless debuff vs. me and provides zero value versus crit. Conversely on a glass templar, the resistances also provide zero value versus WD/SD which augment burst healing and damage -- two things that suck hard on the class and are needed to actually have "defense" on templar because it doesn't have HP% healing. Sorc changes also cutting healing from not just surge, but crit burst healing; the significance depending on the build.

And this extends to PvE as well. Let's say I go to Infinite Archive solo. Do I really care about resistances or penetration there to the extent that I'd give up WD or crit? No.

So where exactly is this better? And you can only say it's "better" in a group, though it would be better to say it's "useful" only in a group since it's still not a buff versus what was previously there. It also is a problem if the group doesn't have the other classes that supposedly had overlapping buffs, in that case it's a nerf.

So we're exchanging power that was better overall and everywhere and for every build to gain a situational powerup in an extremely niche setting that we wouldn't be in often and a majority of players won't be in? And this is supposed to be either a buff or an equivalent exchange that ZOS is going for?

I think not.
That's a great rebuttal!

This person also expressed a similar opinion here:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697238/why-give-sorc-so-many-redundant-abilities#latest

Honestly, I think he's just happy to see Sorc and Templar get nerfed. He keeps touting that 3000 penetration/armor will increase team composition diversity, but when asked to provide a Trial team composition, he can only offer a composition similar to the mainstream meta predicted by others, and those predicting the mainstream meta are precisely the ones who oppose this change. In other words, even he doesn't know how to translate that 3000 penetration/armor into actual team benefits.
I did translate that 2974 Pen into actual team benefits, though. Namely, by taking Alkosh off our DK and letting them parse harder. That's the whole point I've been making, and ignoring it for the convenience of your argument doesn't change the fact that the new Exploitation passive would offer more to groups. Bringing your argument against me into a new thread would not change that.
No, you haven't. You've just repeatedly demonstrated how much a loss of 6% critical (or 10% damage) is to a Sorc/Temple, and many people have already refuted you.

Once again, you're just ignoring my points and claiming the contrary. Until you actually read my posts, we have nothing further to discuss.

MashmalloMan · 1:52AM

Pen is fine, honestly probably needed in the long term and fits much better with Sorc's progressive changes over the years which have further leaned into Max Resources or W/S Damage.

The writing was on the wall for years. Every class set, passive or ability change, even from going on 1s to 2s ticks on Lightning Form, or how the Masteries have nothing to do with critcal chance.

The only problem I see is that this is happening way before the proposed class refresh, which has now been pushed to probably late 2027. Mark my words, it will look something like this:

Critical Surge: Heal for x any time you deal damage to an enemy up to once every second for 30 seconds. This scales based on highest Max Resource.
Power Surge: Heal for x to you and 5 nearby allies any time you heal an ally up to once every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. This scales based on highest Max Resource or Max Health.

ZhuJiuyin · 5:14AM

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pen is fine, honestly probably needed in the long term and fits much better with Sorc's progressive changes over the years which have further leaned into Max Resources or W/S Damage.

The writing was on the wall for years. Every class set, passive or ability change, even from going on 1s to 2s ticks on Lightning Form, or how the Masteries have nothing to do with critcal chance.

The only problem I see is that this is happening way before the proposed class refresh, which has now been pushed to probably late 2027. Mark my words, it will look something like this:
Critical Surge: Heal for x any time you deal damage to an enemy up to once every second for 30 seconds. This scales based on highest Max Resource.

Power Surge: Heal for x to you and 5 nearby allies any time you heal an ally up to once every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. This scales based on highest Max Resource or Max Health.

If this penetration change had during sorc/temple rework, or if there had been compensation offered, even if the developers had simply said, "We're sorry, but we're closely monitoring this change and will adjust it as needed," there would certainly have been far less opposition. But it's precisely because nothing here, that it has provoked such opposition.

acanca · 6:01AM

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Pen is fine, honestly probably needed in the long term and fits much better with Sorc's progressive changes over the years which have further leaned into Max Resources or W/S Damage.

The writing was on the wall for years. Every class set, passive or ability change, even from going on 1s to 2s ticks on Lightning Form, or how the Masteries have nothing to do with critcal chance.

The only problem I see is that this is happening way before the proposed class refresh, which has now been pushed to probably late 2027. Mark my words, it will look something like this:
Critical Surge: Heal for x any time you deal damage to an enemy up to once every second for 30 seconds. This scales based on highest Max Resource.

Power Surge: Heal for x to you and 5 nearby allies any time you heal an ally up to once every 2 seconds for 30 seconds. This scales based on highest Max Resource or Max Health.

Would actually love to see this change.

Turtle_Bot · 7:48AM

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

"The Sorcerer Exploitation passive no longer grants Minor Prophecy, and instead provides a unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff."

We get penetration when one of our core defensive skills require crit chance to proc. Way to go ZOS

This was pointed out as a terrible change, with full in-depth explanations, when first proposed and ZOS still went ahead and implemented it as proposed without ANY adjustments at all.

I would comment further on why this change in particular is such an uninformed, biased and objectively stupid change to make, but to do so would get me banned for "bashing" despite this change being deserving of such responses with how blatantly biased and uninformed it is, especially given the objective and in-depth feedback that was shared back when this change was first proposed that has been completely, blatantly, ignored.

Vaqual wrote: »

Number of issues has been successfully increased.

While I could personally live with that change, I can see why it would annoy a lot of people. I suspect a change is planned for Crit Surge in the rework, otherwise this would be too random.

I would understand making this change if we were still on the original refresh schedule and Sorc was up for being refreshed within the next few months, but at the current (proposed/target, not even guaranteed) rate that the refreshes are going, it looks like it will maybe be the end of 2027, more likely sometime 2028 (if at all) that Sorc will be getting it's refresh and the "fixes" that are supposed to make this change make sense.

Who's threatening to ban you? That would be insane. We need you in here. Argh I'm probably at risk now.

No actual warnings/threats to me of being banned and you will definitely be fine. That sentence was more to indicate that I know/understand that I can't word my additional thoughts/frustrations on this topic beyond what I wrote there in such a way that would not get me (at least temp) banned if I were to actually post them and mostly due to how frustrated I am/was with ZOS blindly pushing through this particular change instead of listening to our feedback from a month or so ago, like they keep claiming/promising they are doing.

Turtle_Bot · 7:52AM

MashmalloMan wrote: »

The only problem I see is that this is happening way before the proposed class refresh, which has now been pushed to probably late 2027.
[/list]

This has been one of the most frustrating parts about this change (aside from ZOS just completely ignoring all of the feedback we gave them 1-2 months ago despite them saying multiple times they would actually listen to feedback and communicate better with us).

I did say earlier in this thread that If Sorc was still getting it's refresh in a few months as originally planned, that there would be less issues with this change, but having the refreshes pushed so far out is really a massive red flag when compounded with ZOS's refusal to listen to that feedback and adapt this proposed change (at least for the interim while we wait for Sorcs refresh).