Why give Sorc so many redundant abilities？

Pinktraining · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.

A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.

ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..

Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.

The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Accessibility is all well and good, but not to the direct detriment of others, which is what this change is. This change is not a "more choices" change, it is a change that removes options from some to give some options to others. It's also not like ZOS was warned that this change as is was a bad idea and they should make adjustments to it. There was plenty of feedback when it was originally proposed 1-2 months ago, yet ZOS completely ignored that feedback (that was actually constructive for once).

If ZOS had simply kept the crit chance somewhere in the kit (even just for the Sorc only, not as a group buff) to compensate for this change, there would literally zero complaints about it, but ZOS didn't do that, so this change ends up as a direct nerf, especially to the existing limited synergies remaining within the class kit, that (based on current targeted refresh scheduling) is only likely to (maybe) see it's refresh end of next year at the earliest.

We are literally getting more.
U50: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance
U51 PTS: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance AND 2974 Armor Penetration.

And guess what, even if whatever group you're in decides they don't need that unique group-wide Armor Penetration buff from Sorcerer, you can still run it and it won't be any worse.

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Renato90085 wrote: »

[
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?
a passive slot not the better sources?

If this 3000 pen or armor were free , yours absolutely right; it would increase team composition diversity.

But unfortunately, this 3000 pen/armor (which has a cap in PvE) comes at the cost of the 6% critical and 10% damage (which has no cap under any circumstances). This will undoubtedly create resentment among players. Not to mention that the 6% critical and 10% damage are reflected in healing, while the 3000 penetration/armor won't.

Given the best comp option that I can find to utilize that 2974 Armor Pen, the 2891 Pen actually results in +6.1% damage.

I don't know where you got that 10% damage number from, but let's fact check that!

Turns out, that +6% critical chance from Minor Prophecy results in a +6% damage difference when you are at or below 20% crit chance.

Above that, at 60% base critical chance, the damage difference from the +6% critical chance drops down to +4.29%.

What this means is, if you have, at minimum, the Thief stone with all Divines armour granting +11% critical chance (on top of the base 10% critical chance), this 2974 Armor Pen is already a buff.

THIS 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 BUFF 👏. Seriously, what are you guys complaining about?

First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but the 10% damage increase and 3000 armor I referred to are the changes to Templars in this patch.

Second, you should know that pen becomes meaningless after reaching its cap. Your theory that 3000 pen equals a 6% damage increase doesn't hold water in any organized raid. Furthermore, Sorc, without Mora Scribe, wearing full medium armor (Null Arca) + Monolith of Storms + Slimecraw, actually only has about 50% critical.

So you've essentially only demonstrated that losing 6% critical has a significant impact on Sorc.

HatchetHaro · August 4

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.

A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.

ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..

Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.

The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Accessibility is all well and good, but not to the direct detriment of others, which is what this change is. This change is not a "more choices" change, it is a change that removes options from some to give some options to others. It's also not like ZOS was warned that this change as is was a bad idea and they should make adjustments to it. There was plenty of feedback when it was originally proposed 1-2 months ago, yet ZOS completely ignored that feedback (that was actually constructive for once).

If ZOS had simply kept the crit chance somewhere in the kit (even just for the Sorc only, not as a group buff) to compensate for this change, there would literally zero complaints about it, but ZOS didn't do that, so this change ends up as a direct nerf, especially to the existing limited synergies remaining within the class kit, that (based on current targeted refresh scheduling) is only likely to (maybe) see it's refresh end of next year at the earliest.

We are literally getting more.
U50: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance
U51 PTS: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance AND 2974 Armor Penetration.

And guess what, even if whatever group you're in decides they don't need that unique group-wide Armor Penetration buff from Sorcerer, you can still run it and it won't be any worse.

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Renato90085 wrote: »

[
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?
a passive slot not the better sources?

If this 3000 pen or armor were free , yours absolutely right; it would increase team composition diversity.

But unfortunately, this 3000 pen/armor (which has a cap in PvE) comes at the cost of the 6% critical and 10% damage (which has no cap under any circumstances). This will undoubtedly create resentment among players. Not to mention that the 6% critical and 10% damage are reflected in healing, while the 3000 penetration/armor won't.

Given the best comp option that I can find to utilize that 2974 Armor Pen, the 2891 Pen actually results in +6.1% damage.

I don't know where you got that 10% damage number from, but let's fact check that!

Turns out, that +6% critical chance from Minor Prophecy results in a +6% damage difference when you are at or below 20% crit chance.

Above that, at 60% base critical chance, the damage difference from the +6% critical chance drops down to +4.29%.

What this means is, if you have, at minimum, the Thief stone with all Divines armour granting +11% critical chance (on top of the base 10% critical chance), this 2974 Armor Pen is already a buff.

THIS 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 BUFF 👏. Seriously, what are you guys complaining about?

First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but the 10% damage increase and 3000 armor I referred to are the changes to Templars in this patch.

Second, you should know that pen becomes meaningless after reaching its cap. Your theory that 3000 pen equals a 6% damage increase doesn't hold water in any organized raid. Furthermore, Sorc, without Mora Scribe, wearing full medium armor (Null Arca) + Monolith of Storms + Slimecraw, actually only has about 50% critical.

So you've essentially only demonstrated that losing 6% critical has a significant impact on Sorc.

The changes to Templar are irrelevant to this particular thread, and even if it is, the same argument applies: groups are getting MORE.

I don't know genuinely how much more clear I can make this: organized raids would make use of any available group buff to the fullest based on capabilities of their group members, which means that raid leaders can actually draft up compositions to make good use of the 2974 Armor Pen from Sorcerer, and if that means someone can take off Alkosh while maintaining maximum group Armor Pen, that's more group damage.

There are already plenty of compositions others have posted that make great use of it. Crimson Oath, Tremorscale, Runic Sunder, putting on an Armor Pen set bonus; you are conveniently ignoring all of these options just to rag on a stat change that ends up in a buff for everyone either way.

Even if, in this case, the group doesn't need that 2974 Armor Pen from Sorcerer: guess what? As long as there's a Nightblade in the group, everyone still gets that +6% crit chance, including the Sorcerer.

Turtle_Bot · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.

A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.

ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..

Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.

The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Accessibility is all well and good, but not to the direct detriment of others, which is what this change is. This change is not a "more choices" change, it is a change that removes options from some to give some options to others. It's also not like ZOS was warned that this change as is was a bad idea and they should make adjustments to it. There was plenty of feedback when it was originally proposed 1-2 months ago, yet ZOS completely ignored that feedback (that was actually constructive for once).

If ZOS had simply kept the crit chance somewhere in the kit (even just for the Sorc only, not as a group buff) to compensate for this change, there would literally zero complaints about it, but ZOS didn't do that, so this change ends up as a direct nerf, especially to the existing limited synergies remaining within the class kit, that (based on current targeted refresh scheduling) is only likely to (maybe) see it's refresh end of next year at the earliest.

We are literally getting more.
U50: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance
U51 PTS: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance AND 2974 Armor Penetration.

And guess what, even if whatever group you're in decides they don't need that unique group-wide Armor Penetration buff from Sorcerer, you can still run it and it won't be any worse.

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Renato90085 wrote: »

[
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?
a passive slot not the better sources?

If this 3000 pen or armor were free , yours absolutely right; it would increase team composition diversity.

But unfortunately, this 3000 pen/armor (which has a cap in PvE) comes at the cost of the 6% critical and 10% damage (which has no cap under any circumstances). This will undoubtedly create resentment among players. Not to mention that the 6% critical and 10% damage are reflected in healing, while the 3000 penetration/armor won't.

Given the best comp option that I can find to utilize that 2974 Armor Pen, the 2891 Pen actually results in +6.1% damage.

I don't know where you got that 10% damage number from, but let's fact check that!

Turns out, that +6% critical chance from Minor Prophecy results in a +6% damage difference when you are at or below 20% crit chance.

Above that, at 60% base critical chance, the damage difference from the +6% critical chance drops down to +4.29%.

What this means is, if you have, at minimum, the Thief stone with all Divines armour granting +11% critical chance (on top of the base 10% critical chance), this 2974 Armor Pen is already a buff.

THIS 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 BUFF 👏. Seriously, what are you guys complaining about?

Where are you getting the information that Sorcerer is keeping it's crit chance bonus in U51?

Run those tests again, but this time without that 6% crit chance you included in your assumptions, because that is what is happening, Sorcerer is losing the crit chance and it is replaced with pen.

The graphs are pretty, but based on the false premise that Sorc is keeping the crit chance and gaining pen as a bonus (your post, not mine).

You are also blindly looking at this from a pure PvE DPS perspective. That reduction in crit chance is actually a big deal for Surge procs (for healers and solo/PvP alike), because that is a significant enough drop in the chance to proc Surge, and unlike other classes, Sorc doesn't have a reliable heal over time in it's class kit that it can slot there instead of Surge. To make up for that lack of Surge procs, this forces adjustments in other areas of the build, such as more light armor pieces which equals less defense (less base armor and more damage taken from martial damage types) or swapping Nirnhoned/Charged weapon traits for Precise which results in less weapon/spell damage (lower tooltips on both DPS and healing in the case of Nirn, or fewer status effect procs (less sundered, less concussed which equals less minor breach and less minor vulnerability from those status effects) which lowers damage, not to mention less chance to proc overcharged on abilities like curse and frags which means slightly less sustain as well in the case of Charged).

There's a much bigger picture to this change than just PVE DPS and that is what I was referring to by things being lost with this change. Just because it doesn't make a difference, or is a 0.1% buff, to your highly specific playstyle, doesn't mean it doesn't have long reaching consequences for many other playstyles or modes that are different to your niche.

Turtle_Bot · August 4

As for "just run a NB", no group running current, cleave focused content is going to give up 2 DD slots for 2 single target classes (NB and Sorc respectively) just to have Sorcs 3k pen that can be easily obtained by existing strategies, allowing that second DD slot to be a Necro, Arcanist or DK that has drastically more cleave damage than Sorc or NB has.

And no, no competent score pushing group is going to take 3k pen (easily capped stat) over 6% crit chance (theoretically capped, but actually uncapped stat in practice since there's no realistic build currently that sits at the 100% crit chance cap).

Some basic math I did in another thread, but even with Week 1 PTS U49 parses (that got subsequently nerfed for U49 live), it would take a Sorc parsing at roughly 460k DPS ST with its 15% cleave to match Arcanist on a 160k parse with 80% cleave to match the total DPS across 6 targets (the target cap of beam). Sorc doesn't even parse half that number, yet you think groups are going to take such a drastic total content DPS loss just for a potential 0.1% buff, especially in modern content that is designed around having such high cleave rates?

Pinktraining · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.

A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.

ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Renato90085 wrote: »

I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..

Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.

The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Accessibility is all well and good, but not to the direct detriment of others, which is what this change is. This change is not a "more choices" change, it is a change that removes options from some to give some options to others. It's also not like ZOS was warned that this change as is was a bad idea and they should make adjustments to it. There was plenty of feedback when it was originally proposed 1-2 months ago, yet ZOS completely ignored that feedback (that was actually constructive for once).

If ZOS had simply kept the crit chance somewhere in the kit (even just for the Sorc only, not as a group buff) to compensate for this change, there would literally zero complaints about it, but ZOS didn't do that, so this change ends up as a direct nerf, especially to the existing limited synergies remaining within the class kit, that (based on current targeted refresh scheduling) is only likely to (maybe) see it's refresh end of next year at the earliest.

We are literally getting more.
U50: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance
U51 PTS: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance AND 2974 Armor Penetration.

And guess what, even if whatever group you're in decides they don't need that unique group-wide Armor Penetration buff from Sorcerer, you can still run it and it won't be any worse.

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.

Renato90085 wrote: »

[
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?
a passive slot not the better sources?

If this 3000 pen or armor were free , yours absolutely right; it would increase team composition diversity.

But unfortunately, this 3000 pen/armor (which has a cap in PvE) comes at the cost of the 6% critical and 10% damage (which has no cap under any circumstances). This will undoubtedly create resentment among players. Not to mention that the 6% critical and 10% damage are reflected in healing, while the 3000 penetration/armor won't.

Given the best comp option that I can find to utilize that 2974 Armor Pen, the 2891 Pen actually results in +6.1% damage.

I don't know where you got that 10% damage number from, but let's fact check that!

Turns out, that +6% critical chance from Minor Prophecy results in a +6% damage difference when you are at or below 20% crit chance.

Above that, at 60% base critical chance, the damage difference from the +6% critical chance drops down to +4.29%.

What this means is, if you have, at minimum, the Thief stone with all Divines armour granting +11% critical chance (on top of the base 10% critical chance), this 2974 Armor Pen is already a buff.

THIS 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 BUFF 👏. Seriously, what are you guys complaining about?

First, perhaps I wasn't clear enough, but the 10% damage increase and 3000 armor I referred to are the changes to Templars in this patch.

Second, you should know that pen becomes meaningless after reaching its cap. Your theory that 3000 pen equals a 6% damage increase doesn't hold water in any organized raid. Furthermore, Sorc, without Mora Scribe, wearing full medium armor (Null Arca) + Monolith of Storms + Slimecraw, actually only has about 50% critical.

So you've essentially only demonstrated that losing 6% critical has a significant impact on Sorc.

The changes to Templar are irrelevant to this particular thread, and even if it is, the same argument applies: groups are getting MORE.

I don't know genuinely how much more clear I can make this: organized raids would make use of any available group buff to the fullest based on capabilities of their group members, which means that raid leaders can actually draft up compositions to make good use of the 2974 Armor Pen from Sorcerer, and if that means someone can take off Alkosh while maintaining maximum group Armor Pen, that's more group damage.

There are already plenty of compositions others have posted that make great use of it. Crimson Oath, Tremorscale, Runic Sunder, putting on an Armor Pen set bonus; you are conveniently ignoring all of these options just to rag on a stat change that ends up in a buff for everyone either way.

Even if, in this case, the group doesn't need that 2974 Armor Pen from Sorcerer: guess what? As long as there's a Nightblade in the group, everyone still gets that +6% crit chance, including the Sorcerer.

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

HatchetHaro · August 4

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Where are you getting the information that Sorcerer is keeping it's crit chance bonus in U51?

Run those tests again, but this time without that 6% crit chance you included in your assumptions, because that is what is happening, Sorcerer is losing the crit chance and it is replaced with pen.

The graphs are pretty, but based on the false premise that Sorc is keeping the crit chance and gaining pen as a bonus (your post, not mine).

You are also blindly looking at this from a pure PvE DPS perspective. That reduction in crit chance is actually a big deal for Surge procs (for healers and solo/PvP alike), because that is a significant enough drop in the chance to proc Surge, and unlike other classes, Sorc doesn't have a reliable heal over time in it's class kit that it can slot there instead of Surge. To make up for that lack of Surge procs, this forces adjustments in other areas of the build, such as more light armor pieces which equals less defense (less base armor and more damage taken from martial damage types) or swapping Nirnhoned/Charged weapon traits for Precise which results in less weapon/spell damage (lower tooltips on both DPS and healing in the case of Nirn, or fewer status effect procs (less sundered, less concussed which equals less minor breach and less minor vulnerability from those status effects) which lowers damage, not to mention less chance to proc overcharged on abilities like curse and frags which means slightly less sustain as well in the case of Charged).

There's a much bigger picture to this change than just PVE DPS and that is what I was referring to by things being lost with this change. Just because it doesn't make a difference, or is a 0.1% buff, to your highly specific playstyle, doesn't mean it doesn't have long reaching consequences for many other playstyles or modes that are different to your niche.

I never claimed Sorcerer keeps Minor Prophecy. The patch notes say that Minor Savagery now combines both. Because Nightblades retain Minor Savagery, any group with a Nightblade still has that 6% Critical Chance; there's no loss there. A group with a Nightblade and a Sorcerer gets the full 6% Critical Chance plus the brand new 2,974 Offensive Penetration. That is more stats than U50.

But okay, since you brought up PvP, sure, let's get out of PvE for a minute and talk about Surge.

Let's just look at Critical Surge.

Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events

Assuming 40% base crit chance, at 46% crit chance and 3 damage events per second (light attack + ability + enchantment/status effect), you have an 84.25% chance to proc Surge every second, or on average one proc every 1.19 seconds.
With the same setup, just at 40% crit chance, the odds for missing the heal proc drops by just 5.85% to 78.4%, or on average one proc every 1.28 seconds, for a delay of 0.09 seconds between procs.

At 5 damage events per second (light attack + bound armaments), at 46% crit, we're looking at a 95.41% chance to proc Surge every second, or on average once every 1.05 seconds.
At 40% crit, that drops 3.19% to 92.22% chance to proc Surge every second, or on average once every 1.08 seconds, a delay of 0.03 seconds between procs.

Are you saying that is enough for you to have to change traits? Is that minimally decreased chance of a heal proc from Critical Surge really enough to warrant changing your whole build? Not to mention: the Armour Pen is still a damage buff in PvP compared to the 6% Crit Chance at anywhere above 20% Base Crit Chance; you can still mix and match to adjust based on that and it'll still be a net buff.

I'm not even going to math Power Surge. HoTs are multi-target, you're getting way more heal ticks into a group every second, plus Power Surge has an internal cooldown of 3 seconds rather than 1 second, which means the 6% crit chance matters even less. Sure, for healers specifically, that's a nerf in healing output, but keep in mind: they're granting the Armour Pen to the whole group, which is still a buff in group damage output.

ceruulean · August 4

The devs already coded and developed 2 extra buffs, so why would they delete their hard work?

Anyway, the change is a buff to 12 man groups but a nerf to small groups. What if my dungeon team doesn't have a DK and NB? I'm just gonna deal inferior damage to DK/NB comps?

HatchetHaro · August 4

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

ZhuJiuyin · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you're truly as experienced as you claim, you should know, as @Turtle_Bot stated, no group running current, cleave-focused content will mean giving up two DD slots for two single-target classes (NB and Sorc respectively) just to have Sorcs with 3k penetration. Especially since penetration is actually quite easy to obtain; you can even get full penetration without Alkosh, for example, with subclasses.

Similarly, you should also foresee that after U51, all teams will include an NB DPS and have them wear Alkosh, while Sorc DPS will likely disappear from trials. This is because the current strategy in U50 has already proven that teams have sufficient penetration sources, and you yourself even mentioned multiple strategies to obtain penetration. All of this is enough to show that penetration is very cheap in PvE, while critical strike chance... is a precious attribute in any game. Removing one of the most important attributes from Sorc and replacing it with a cheaper one is a nerf in every respect. Due to the irreplaceable nature of critical strike chance, future team compositions will simply shift from a choice between Sorc/NB DPS to prioritizing NB, while Sorc DPS will become fewer or even disappear altogether. This directly contradicts your emphasis on team diversity.

To give another example, when u46 ZOS changed NB's Master Assassin from pen to critical strike chance, there were no complaints from NB players.

Pinktraining · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you are truly that experienced and so eager to prove your point, then please provide a 12-person trial setup so everyone can see just how effective 3000 penetration or armor really is.

Pinktraining · August 4

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

To give another example, when u46 ZOS changed NB's Master Assassin from pen to critical strike chance, there were no complaints from NB players.

Indeed, when Master Assassin changed from pen to critical, I thought: NB is finally about to usher in its spring.

Although in the end, NB became important because of its combination with Arc/Temple...

Pinktraining · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »
Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Where are you getting the information that Sorcerer is keeping it's crit chance bonus in U51?

Run those tests again, but this time without that 6% crit chance you included in your assumptions, because that is what is happening, Sorcerer is losing the crit chance and it is replaced with pen.

The graphs are pretty, but based on the false premise that Sorc is keeping the crit chance and gaining pen as a bonus (your post, not mine).

You are also blindly looking at this from a pure PvE DPS perspective. That reduction in crit chance is actually a big deal for Surge procs (for healers and solo/PvP alike), because that is a significant enough drop in the chance to proc Surge, and unlike other classes, Sorc doesn't have a reliable heal over time in it's class kit that it can slot there instead of Surge. To make up for that lack of Surge procs, this forces adjustments in other areas of the build, such as more light armor pieces which equals less defense (less base armor and more damage taken from martial damage types) or swapping Nirnhoned/Charged weapon traits for Precise which results in less weapon/spell damage (lower tooltips on both DPS and healing in the case of Nirn, or fewer status effect procs (less sundered, less concussed which equals less minor breach and less minor vulnerability from those status effects) which lowers damage, not to mention less chance to proc overcharged on abilities like curse and frags which means slightly less sustain as well in the case of Charged).

There's a much bigger picture to this change than just PVE DPS and that is what I was referring to by things being lost with this change. Just because it doesn't make a difference, or is a 0.1% buff, to your highly specific playstyle, doesn't mean it doesn't have long reaching consequences for many other playstyles or modes that are different to your niche.

I never claimed Sorcerer keeps Minor Prophecy. The patch notes say that Minor Savagery now combines both. Because Nightblades retain Minor Savagery, any group with a Nightblade still has that 6% Critical Chance; there's no loss there. A group with a Nightblade and a Sorcerer gets the full 6% Critical Chance plus the brand new 2,974 Offensive Penetration. That is more stats than U50.

But okay, since you brought up PvP, sure, let's get out of PvE for a minute and talk about Surge.

Let's just look at Critical Surge.
Chance to Proc Surge = 1 - (Chance to NOT Crit) ^ Damage Events
Assuming 40% base crit chance, at 46% crit chance and 3 damage events per second (light attack + ability + enchantment/status effect), you have an 84.25% chance to proc Surge every second, or on average one proc every 1.19 seconds.
With the same setup, just at 40% crit chance, the odds for missing the heal proc drops by just 5.85% to 78.4%, or on average one proc every 1.28 seconds, for a delay of 0.09 seconds between procs.

At 5 damage events per second (light attack + bound armaments), at 46% crit, we're looking at a 95.41% chance to proc Surge every second, or on average once every 1.05 seconds.
At 40% crit, that drops 3.19% to 92.22% chance to proc Surge every second, or on average once every 1.08 seconds, a delay of 0.03 seconds between procs.

Are you saying that is enough for you to have to change traits? Is that minimally decreased chance of a heal proc from Critical Surge really enough to warrant changing your whole build? Not to mention: the Armour Pen is still a damage buff in PvP compared to the 6% Crit Chance at anywhere above 20% Base Crit Chance; you can still mix and match to adjust based on that and it'll still be a net buff.

I'm not even going to math Power Surge. HoTs are multi-target, you're getting way more heal ticks into a group every second, plus Power Surge has an internal cooldown of 3 seconds rather than 1 second, which means the 6% crit chance matters even less. Sure, for healers specifically, that's a nerf in healing output, but keep in mind: they're granting the Armour Pen to the whole group, which is still a buff in group damage output.

I assume you know that the prerequisite for 5 damage events per second (light attack + bound armaments) is that you need to accumulate 4 bound armaments first. Furthermore, in PvP, unless it's a specific build, it's rare to have that high critical . And, due to the importance of Rallying Cry, reducing critical hit rate actually reduces the trigger rate of Rallying Cry, not to mention the impact on heal.

HatchetHaro · August 4

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you're truly as experienced as you claim, you should know, as @Turtle_Bot stated, no group running current, cleave-focused content will mean giving up two DD slots for two single-target classes (NB and Sorc respectively) just to have Sorcs with 3k penetration. Especially since penetration is actually quite easy to obtain; you can even get full penetration without Alkosh, for example, with subclasses.

Similarly, you should also foresee that after U51, all teams will include an NB DPS and have them wear Alkosh, while Sorc DPS will likely disappear from trials. This is because the current strategy in U50 has already proven that teams have sufficient penetration sources, and you yourself even mentioned multiple strategies to obtain penetration. All of this is enough to show that penetration is very cheap in PvE, while critical strike chance... is a precious attribute in any game. Removing one of the most important attributes from Sorc and replacing it with a cheaper one is a nerf in every respect. Due to the irreplaceable nature of critical strike chance, future team compositions will simply shift from a choice between Sorc/NB DPS to prioritizing NB, while Sorc DPS will become fewer or even disappear altogether. This directly contradicts your emphasis on team diversity.

To give another example, when u46 ZOS changed NB's Master Assassin from pen to critical strike chance, there were no complaints from NB players.

Okay, since we're now onto raid compositions, we can talk about raid compositions.

1. You do realize that these unique buffs (Minor Savagery, Minor Prophecy) aren't necessarily sourced from DDs, right? Sorcerer tanks can be granting the group that 2974 Pen buff PLUS applying the 1000 Pen from Crystal Weapon on bosses. That plus Tremorscale is more than enough to drop Alkosh from a DD to maintain the exact same Penetration.

2. For that matter, since there are already NB DDs providing Minor Savagery (why wouldn't there be, with their super strong class masteries?), no one has ever cared about bringing a Sorcerer for their Exploitation passive in a long time. Unless you're actively chugging Spell Crit potions (and why would you, with the myriad of skills that grant Major Savagery & Prophecy that you can slot one of?), Sorcerer DDs have never been sought-after. The change to the 2974 Pen group buff is strictly an upgrade.

3. Also, you can hardly find any DDs subclassing any more; class masteries are too powerful to forgo. You'll know if you've raided at any end-game capacity in U50.

4. You do realize not all trials and fights and even strats are cleave-heavy, right? No group composition is one-size-fits-all, which just drives my point home: it's about choices and flexibility for people to draft up group comps that best fit the players available and the content they want to do. Imagine bringing a cleave-heavy comp into Kyne's Aegis, ha. Besides, if you have a cleave-heavy comp, that means you're bringing Arcs and Necros in Velothi, which means 2974 Pen hits that sweet spot for those players to not have to run light armour or penetration set bonuses and the tanks to not have to worry about any sets (Major + Minor Breach + Infused Crusher + Piercing + Velothi + Splintered Secrets/Dismember = 1549 - 2340 underpen). And again, that passive can come from a Sorc tank!

5. I don't know why you're bringing up the NB Master Assassin passive change. That's purely a selfish damage passive. We're talking about group buffs here.

ZhuJiuyin · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you're truly as experienced as you claim, you should know, as @Turtle_Bot stated, no group running current, cleave-focused content will mean giving up two DD slots for two single-target classes (NB and Sorc respectively) just to have Sorcs with 3k penetration. Especially since penetration is actually quite easy to obtain; you can even get full penetration without Alkosh, for example, with subclasses.

Similarly, you should also foresee that after U51, all teams will include an NB DPS and have them wear Alkosh, while Sorc DPS will likely disappear from trials. This is because the current strategy in U50 has already proven that teams have sufficient penetration sources, and you yourself even mentioned multiple strategies to obtain penetration. All of this is enough to show that penetration is very cheap in PvE, while critical strike chance... is a precious attribute in any game. Removing one of the most important attributes from Sorc and replacing it with a cheaper one is a nerf in every respect. Due to the irreplaceable nature of critical strike chance, future team compositions will simply shift from a choice between Sorc/NB DPS to prioritizing NB, while Sorc DPS will become fewer or even disappear altogether. This directly contradicts your emphasis on team diversity.

To give another example, when u46 ZOS changed NB's Master Assassin from pen to critical strike chance, there were no complaints from NB players.

Okay, since we're now onto raid compositions, we can talk about raid compositions.

1. You do realize that these unique buffs (Minor Savagery, Minor Prophecy) aren't necessarily sourced from DDs, right? Sorcerer tanks can be granting the group that 2974 Pen buff PLUS applying the 1000 Pen from Crystal Weapon on bosses. That plus Tremorscale is more than enough to drop Alkosh from a DD to maintain the exact same Penetration.

2. For that matter, since there are already NB DDs providing Minor Savagery (why wouldn't there be, with their super strong class masteries?), no one has ever cared about bringing a Sorcerer for their Exploitation passive in a long time. Unless you're actively chugging Spell Crit potions (and why would you, with the myriad of skills that grant Major Savagery & Prophecy that you can slot one of?), Sorcerer DDs have never been sought-after. The change to the 2974 Pen group buff is strictly an upgrade.

3. Also, you can hardly find any DDs subclassing any more; class masteries are too powerful to forgo. You'll know if you've raided at any end-game capacity in U50.

4. You do realize not all trials and fights and even strats are cleave-heavy, right? No group composition is one-size-fits-all, which just drives my point home: it's about choices and flexibility for people to draft up group comps that best fit the players available and the content they want to do. Imagine bringing a cleave-heavy comp into Kyne's Aegis, ha. Besides, if you have a cleave-heavy comp, that means you're bringing Arcs and Necros in Velothi, which means 2974 Pen hits that sweet spot for those players to not have to run light armour or penetration set bonuses and the tanks to not have to worry about any sets (Major + Minor Breach + Infused Crusher + Piercing + Velothi + Splintered Secrets/Dismember = 1549 - 2340 underpen). And again, that passive can come from a Sorc tank!

5. I don't know why you're bringing up the NB Master Assassin passive change. That's purely a selfish damage passive. We're talking about group buffs here.

You're just repeating what I said before. I mentioned that in U51, with Exploitation gone, raids will have to rely on Nightblade to provide that 6% critical hit rate, leaving Sorc with little more than the Tank role. Since a team only needs two tanks, and given the difficulty of learning tanking, this will only push more Sorc away from the Final Trial, not the other way around.

Furthermore, while Warlock DPS classes have never been popular, before U46, almost every raid had at least one Sorc providing buffs (Exploitation, Atronach).

Also, don't forget that it's perfectly feasible to take a team primarily focused on AoE attacks to KA. You can verify this on ESO-LOG; the top 10 are all Necromancers using Corpseburster. Conversely, you can't take a team primarily focused on single-target attacks to challenge LC, OC, or SE.

Furthermore, we've never just been discussing team buffs, but the overall impact of this change on Sorc.

HatchetHaro · August 4

Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you are truly that experienced and so eager to prove your point, then please provide a 12-person trial setup so everyone can see just how effective 3000 penetration or armor really is.

MT: DK; Lead from the Front; Lucent Echoes + Powerful Assault + Baron Zaudrus
OT: Sorcerer; Calculated Defense; Pearlescent Ward + Xoryn + Cryptcanon

H1: Warden; Bountiful Harvest + Tundra's Maw; Pillager's + Serpent's Disdain + Symphony
H2: Templar; Bright Harbinger + Bastion of Light; Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's + Ozezan

DD1: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD2: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD3: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD4: Arc; Unbound Potential + Ink-Scribe's Verve; Null Arca + Morag Tong + Velothi; Reaving Blows
DD5: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Azureblight + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD6: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Null Arca + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD7: NB Werewolf; Null Arca + Savage Werewolf + Signet + 1pc light Valkyn
DD8: DK; Wildfire Embers + Lead from the Front; Null Arca + Z'en's + Velothi + 1pc light Slimecraw; Magma Fist + Status Knife

I mean, I just modified my Rockgrove roster to take off Alkosh and have the two DDs put on an extra piece of light armour, and this is just one of many, many ways to do it; put more Necros in place of Arcs, replace the 1pc light Valkyn with Force of Nature, use Heroism on banners and make the WW run Pack Leader or drop Lucent Echoes for Yolnahkriin, replace ROJO with double healer Master Architects, etc.

It's not that hard. The outrage is so overblown.

Pinktraining · August 4

HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you are truly that experienced and so eager to prove your point, then please provide a 12-person trial setup so everyone can see just how effective 3000 penetration or armor really is.
MT: DK; Lead from the Front; Lucent Echoes + Powerful Assault + Baron Zaudrus
OT: Sorcerer; Calculated Defense; Pearlescent Ward + Xoryn + Cryptcanon

H1: Warden; Bountiful Harvest + Tundra's Maw; Pillager's + Serpent's Disdain + Symphony
H2: Templar; Bright Harbinger + Bastion of Light; Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's + Ozezan

DD1: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD2: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD3: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD4: Arc; Unbound Potential + Ink-Scribe's Verve; Null Arca + Morag Tong + Velothi; Reaving Blows
DD5: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Azureblight + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD6: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Null Arca + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD7: NB Werewolf; Null Arca + Savage Werewolf + Signet + 1pc light Valkyn
DD8: DK; Wildfire Embers + Lead from the Front; Null Arca + Z'en's + Velothi + 1pc light Slimecraw; Magma Fist + Status Knife
I mean, I just modified my Rockgrove roster to take off Alkosh and have the two DDs put on an extra piece of light armour, and this is just one of many, many ways to do it; put more Necros in place of Arcs, replace the 1pc light Valkyn with Force of Nature, use Heroism on banners and make the WW run Pack Leader or drop Lucent Echoes for Yolnahkriin, replace ROJO with double healer Master Architects, etc.

It's not that hard. The outrage is so overblown.

So, this is your answer? A team without Sorc, Templar, or Warden DPS? What kind of diverse team is this? It even only has one single-target class, which is completely similar to other people's predictions.

And this even forced Necro to abandon other more valuable Mythic sets, such as Huntsman's Warmask and SPS. Don't forget, Velothi's damage formula has been modified.

Even if we take a step back, you should noticed that your team, even without Sorc's 3000 points, is only about 2000 short, so the tank can use Tremorscale and team still have 18200 pen, then the Sorc tank slot can be replaced with another class, such as Necro/Warden/Dragon Knight Tank (and the corresponding healing and support classes adjusted).

So you've ultimately just proven once again that without the 6% raid Critical buff, Sorc's value in Trials will be further reduced (only Calculated Defense will be valuable). Similarly, Templar's value as DPS will also decrease, and there's a high chance that only tanks or healers will be viable.

HatchetHaro · 12:28AM

Pinktraining wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you are truly that experienced and so eager to prove your point, then please provide a 12-person trial setup so everyone can see just how effective 3000 penetration or armor really is.
MT: DK; Lead from the Front; Lucent Echoes + Powerful Assault + Baron Zaudrus
OT: Sorcerer; Calculated Defense; Pearlescent Ward + Xoryn + Cryptcanon

H1: Warden; Bountiful Harvest + Tundra's Maw; Pillager's + Serpent's Disdain + Symphony
H2: Templar; Bright Harbinger + Bastion of Light; Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's + Ozezan

DD1: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD2: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD3: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD4: Arc; Unbound Potential + Ink-Scribe's Verve; Null Arca + Morag Tong + Velothi; Reaving Blows
DD5: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Azureblight + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD6: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Null Arca + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD7: NB Werewolf; Null Arca + Savage Werewolf + Signet + 1pc light Valkyn
DD8: DK; Wildfire Embers + Lead from the Front; Null Arca + Z'en's + Velothi + 1pc light Slimecraw; Magma Fist + Status Knife
I mean, I just modified my Rockgrove roster to take off Alkosh and have the two DDs put on an extra piece of light armour, and this is just one of many, many ways to do it; put more Necros in place of Arcs, replace the 1pc light Valkyn with Force of Nature, use Heroism on banners and make the WW run Pack Leader or drop Lucent Echoes for Yolnahkriin, replace ROJO with double healer Master Architects, etc.

It's not that hard. The outrage is so overblown.
So, this is your answer? A team without Sorc, Templar, or Warden DPS? What kind of diverse team is this? It even only has one single-target class, which is completely similar to other people's predictions.

And this even forced Necro to abandon other more valuable Mythic sets, such as Huntsman's Warmask and SPS. Don't forget, Velothi's damage formula has been modified.

Even if we take a step back, you should noticed that your team, even without Sorc's 3000 points, is only about 2000 short, so the tank can use Tremorscale and team still have 18200 pen, then the Sorc tank slot can be replaced with another class, such as Necro/Warden/Dragon Knight Tank (and the corresponding healing and support classes adjusted).

So you've ultimately just proven once again that without the 6% raid Critical buff, Sorc's value in Trials will be further reduced (only Calculated Defense will be valuable). Similarly, Templar's value as DPS will also decrease, and there's a high chance that only tanks or healers will be viable.

You asked me to provide a sample roster, so that's one adapted from what I'm using now.

My points still stand. The Exploitation change would be enough take Alkosh off of my DK, which is increased value from the Sorcerer. Nothing else in the roster has changed.

Even if you get your wish, and NBs and Sorcs swap their passives, aka NBs grant the group 2974 Pen, and Sorcs grant the group Minor Savagery: that roster stays the exact same, because both buffs are still being supplied.

Look, I've said this before and it seems to have flown over, so I'm saying this again: Sorc DDs haven't been relevant in endgame PvE in multiple updates. The Exploitation change just makes them more unique, and at worst, nothing changes in terms of getting more Sorc DDs into raid comps, because zero is still no change compared to zero.

What you are complaining about is actually an overall balancing issue, not one with this Exploitation passive change specifically, and thus, irrelevant to this thread. The new Exploitation passive won't make Sorcs any less popular.

Pinktraining · 12:42AM

HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you are truly that experienced and so eager to prove your point, then please provide a 12-person trial setup so everyone can see just how effective 3000 penetration or armor really is.
MT: DK; Lead from the Front; Lucent Echoes + Powerful Assault + Baron Zaudrus
OT: Sorcerer; Calculated Defense; Pearlescent Ward + Xoryn + Cryptcanon

H1: Warden; Bountiful Harvest + Tundra's Maw; Pillager's + Serpent's Disdain + Symphony
H2: Templar; Bright Harbinger + Bastion of Light; Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's + Ozezan

DD1: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD2: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD3: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD4: Arc; Unbound Potential + Ink-Scribe's Verve; Null Arca + Morag Tong + Velothi; Reaving Blows
DD5: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Azureblight + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD6: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Null Arca + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD7: NB Werewolf; Null Arca + Savage Werewolf + Signet + 1pc light Valkyn
DD8: DK; Wildfire Embers + Lead from the Front; Null Arca + Z'en's + Velothi + 1pc light Slimecraw; Magma Fist + Status Knife
I mean, I just modified my Rockgrove roster to take off Alkosh and have the two DDs put on an extra piece of light armour, and this is just one of many, many ways to do it; put more Necros in place of Arcs, replace the 1pc light Valkyn with Force of Nature, use Heroism on banners and make the WW run Pack Leader or drop Lucent Echoes for Yolnahkriin, replace ROJO with double healer Master Architects, etc.

It's not that hard. The outrage is so overblown.
So, this is your answer? A team without Sorc, Templar, or Warden DPS? What kind of diverse team is this? It even only has one single-target class, which is completely similar to other people's predictions.

And this even forced Necro to abandon other more valuable Mythic sets, such as Huntsman's Warmask and SPS. Don't forget, Velothi's damage formula has been modified.

Even if we take a step back, you should noticed that your team, even without Sorc's 3000 points, is only about 2000 short, so the tank can use Tremorscale and team still have 18200 pen, then the Sorc tank slot can be replaced with another class, such as Necro/Warden/Dragon Knight Tank (and the corresponding healing and support classes adjusted).

So you've ultimately just proven once again that without the 6% raid Critical buff, Sorc's value in Trials will be further reduced (only Calculated Defense will be valuable). Similarly, Templar's value as DPS will also decrease, and there's a high chance that only tanks or healers will be viable.
You asked me to provide a sample roster, so that's one adapted from what I'm using now.

My points still stand. The Exploitation change would be enough take Alkosh off of my DK, which is increased value from the Sorcerer. Nothing else in the roster has changed.

Look, I've said this before and it seems to have flown over, so I'm saying this again: Sorc DDs haven't been relevant in endgame PvE in multiple updates. The Exploitation change just makes them more unique, and at worst, nothing changes in terms of getting more Sorc DDs into raid comps, because zero is still no change compared to zero.

What you are complaining about is actually an overall balancing issue, not one with this Exploitation passive change specifically, and thus, irrelevant to this thread. The new Exploitation passive won't make Sorcs any less popular.

As others have pointed out, the new 3000 penetration will not only reduce Sorc's damage/healing outside of raids, but also, in raids, it will only change the original 2-for-1 choice (Sorc or NB) to NB first, making Sorc a dispensable option (the same logic applies to Templars, but Templars perform better than Sorc during execution phases).

This change will only potentially improve Sorc/Templar in very rare situations; in most known scenarios, it will be a loss. Many people had already pointed this out before the u51 patch notes.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom While we know the recent layoffs have thrown the team into disarray, and we all wish you all the best in overcoming this difficult time. But the Sorc and Templar changes are undoubtedly the focus of controversy in this patch. Can we get some information to hear what the developers are thinking? Or, will other changes be made during the PTS to compensate for Sorc and Templar?

Vondreas · 2:20AM

Sorcs too strong, nerf is justified.

I will cease leveling my sorc, and make my Templar great again.

ZhuJiuyin · 5:07AM

I think we must first establish a fundamental truth: a class’s overall strength is determined by its own damage output, survivability, and group contribution combined. When a change is made under the guise of “increasing class uniqueness,” yet it substantially cuts into the core stats of that class itself, it constitutes a nerf—regardless of any side benefits attached. That is exactly what happened with the U51 swap of the Sorcerer’s critical buff (and the Templar’s as well).

1. The pen-buff cannot compensate for the loss of critical.

In the current PvE environment, Pen is one of the easiest stats to cap through gear and racial passives. A standard trial group setup can easily reach the cap, whereas Critical is always a scarce and highly valuable stat.

To “utilize” this new Pen, some proposed group compositions have outright dropped other better Mythic sets and instead required the group to use Velothi—a Mythic set whose damage formula was adjusted in the previous patch (don’t get me wrong, it’s still decent, but it’s no longer top-tier for most classes). This is essentially a net-negative trade-off: if Pen is already capped, the buff is completely wasted; if it’s not capped, you have to sacrifice other more valuable stats to fit it, and overall damage often ends up no higher—or even lower.

2. “More choices” is just a fancy wrapper for taking away choice.

Some claim that this change “increases build flexibility,” but the opposite is true:

Before, groups could freely choose which critical buff to bring (Sorc or Nightblade), and that buff applied to the class itself as well—a double benefit.

Now, the Pen-buff forcibly replaces the critical buff, forcing Sorcerers to give up their own critical, while the Pen may be completely irrelevant to the group’s needs. Players have no option to keep the old effect—how is that “flexibility”? It’s simply forcing a mature, established setup to be replaced by an inferior one.

In short, this is not adding new options; it’s removing options from some players and forcing them onto others. If the devs truly wanted to add choice, they could have made the new Pen a separate passive or an optional skill, rather than directly overwriting a core group buff.

What’s more, if this change goes live, Sorcerers will struggle to be dps for the raid team for future. The so-called “more choices” will only reduce the number of viable options.

3. The skill redundancy issue is completely ignored

If anyone believe this change is an improvement, then them cannot ignore the long-standing problem of skill overlap within the Sorcerer class. This update did not address any of the redundant skills (e.g., multiple immobilizes, multiple resource passives), but instead made a one-size-fits-all swap on a key passive. This reveals that the dev team does not truly understand the Sorcerer’s pain points. Rather than giving a trivial Pen-buff, they should have reworked Exploiter or consolidated the Dark Magic passives so that Sorcerers could keep their own critical while providing group Pen through specific actions. This is not “balance” or "more choices "—it’s lazy nerfing.

4. Player feedback was ignored.

A full month before U51 hit the PTS, the community submitted extensive objections, clearly pointing out the drawbacks of this Pen-buff. Yet these comments were completely disregarded in the final update. It shows a disregard for player experience. When a change lacks any data support (the devs have published no statistics showing Pen outperforms Critical, nor any developer commentary), and goes against the practical experience of most players, it again proves that this is merely an attempt to force class representation rates, at the expense of the Sorcerer’s core gameplay.

To sum up in one sentence: If a change forces you to re-stack an easily overcapped stat while taking away a core offensive stat that scales linearly, then it is a nerf—no matter what fancy name it’s given.

(The above arguments also apply equally to the Templar.)

Renato90085 · 5:17AM

HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »
HatchetHaro wrote: »
Pinktraining wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

If you've read carefully, you'll see I'm also replying to someone else, and I mentioned the same predicament Templars face in a previous post.

And no, the new penetration and armor passives aren't effective buffs in organized PvE because raid penetration is already capped, and tank armor should always be maintained at 33,000. Furthermore, most HM Trials damage is one-shot kills if not dodged, so more armor is useless.

As for the An Armor Pen set bonus, that's a joke. Unless a set's 5-piece bonus is exceptionally good, no rational DPS would choose a set with a Pen bonus.

Regarding Nightblade, while I absolutely disagree with swapping them, but like others said, if you think 3000 pen is good, then you should trade 6% critical for it.

And about raid composition, other more experienced people have already covered that; you just need to read them.

Raid penetration is already capped now because someone is running Alkosh. This Sorcerer buff change means we can stop using Alkosh on that one guy and have them deal more damage. We still aren't losing that 6% crit chance because we're running a Nightblade.

Sure, a lot of damage in HM trials are oneshots, but do you know what a lot of other damage in HM trials are? Not oneshots. I'm talking Caustic Carrion, Distressing Bolt, Daedric Bombardment, Firestorm, Giant Sword cones, and that's just the Overlord Kazpian fight. If Armour didn't matter, why would someone be tasked with running Expansive Frost Cloak?

Also, regarding sets with a Pen bonus: Ansuul's Torment and Tide-Born Wildstalker. I mean, they're not always the best in every situation, but those are absolutely very much still some of the best sets anyone can just pop on and use for any fight.

But I guess my 10 years of raiding and the complete set of trial trifectas I've listed in my signature don't count as "experience" to you. Okay.

If you are truly that experienced and so eager to prove your point, then please provide a 12-person trial setup so everyone can see just how effective 3000 penetration or armor really is.
MT: DK; Lead from the Front; Lucent Echoes + Powerful Assault + Baron Zaudrus
OT: Sorcerer; Calculated Defense; Pearlescent Ward + Xoryn + Cryptcanon

H1: Warden; Bountiful Harvest + Tundra's Maw; Pillager's + Serpent's Disdain + Symphony
H2: Templar; Bright Harbinger + Bastion of Light; Roaring Opportunist + Jorvuld's + Ozezan

DD1: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD2: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD3: Arc; Unbound Potential + Abyssal Emergence; Null Arca + Deadly + Velothi
DD4: Arc; Unbound Potential + Ink-Scribe's Verve; Null Arca + Morag Tong + Velothi; Reaving Blows
DD5: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Azureblight + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD6: Necro; Cycle Unending + Nothing Wasted; Null Arca + Corpseburster + Velothi; Banner (Shocking + Courage)
DD7: NB Werewolf; Null Arca + Savage Werewolf + Signet + 1pc light Valkyn
DD8: DK; Wildfire Embers + Lead from the Front; Null Arca + Z'en's + Velothi + 1pc light Slimecraw; Magma Fist + Status Knife
I mean, I just modified my Rockgrove roster to take off Alkosh and have the two DDs put on an extra piece of light armour, and this is just one of many, many ways to do it; put more Necros in place of Arcs, replace the 1pc light Valkyn with Force of Nature, use Heroism on banners and make the WW run Pack Leader or drop Lucent Echoes for Yolnahkriin, replace ROJO with double healer Master Architects, etc.

It's not that hard. The outrage is so overblown.
So, this is your answer? A team without Sorc, Templar, or Warden DPS? What kind of diverse team is this? It even only has one single-target class, which is completely similar to other people's predictions.

And this even forced Necro to abandon other more valuable Mythic sets, such as Huntsman's Warmask and SPS. Don't forget, Velothi's damage formula has been modified.

Even if we take a step back, you should noticed that your team, even without Sorc's 3000 points, is only about 2000 short, so the tank can use Tremorscale and team still have 18200 pen, then the Sorc tank slot can be replaced with another class, such as Necro/Warden/Dragon Knight Tank (and the corresponding healing and support classes adjusted).

So you've ultimately just proven once again that without the 6% raid Critical buff, Sorc's value in Trials will be further reduced (only Calculated Defense will be valuable). Similarly, Templar's value as DPS will also decrease, and there's a high chance that only tanks or healers will be viable.
You asked me to provide a sample roster, so that's one adapted from what I'm using now.

My points still stand. The Exploitation change would be enough take Alkosh off of my DK, which is increased value from the Sorcerer. Nothing else in the roster has changed.

Even if you get your wish, and NBs and Sorcs swap their passives, aka NBs grant the group 2974 Pen, and Sorcs grant the group Minor Savagery: that roster stays the exact same, because both buffs are still being supplied.

Look, I've said this before and it seems to have flown over, so I'm saying this again: Sorc DDs haven't been relevant in endgame PvE in multiple updates. The Exploitation change just makes them more unique, and at worst, nothing changes in terms of getting more Sorc DDs into raid comps, because zero is still no change compared to zero.

What you are complaining about is actually an overall balancing issue, not one with this Exploitation passive change specifically, and thus, irrelevant to this thread. The new Exploitation passive won't make Sorcs any less popular.

yes.. if today sorc swap crit passive with nb ,there bis core still is tank sorc spam dark magic crystal&vibrant shroud,still nodoby should run sorc dps.and nb pen passive,the dk can leave alkosh jail to run null arca
and nb still a better st dps choose in real content(other 2 crit/crit dmg passive/killer blade&force/Morag Tong with necro)
sorc only good in IA parse set and not better nb

Turtle_Bot · 8:11AM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

I think we must first establish a fundamental truth: a class’s overall strength is determined by its own damage output, survivability, and group contribution combined. When a change is made under the guise of “increasing class uniqueness,” yet it substantially cuts into the core stats of that class itself, it constitutes a nerf—regardless of any side benefits attached. That is exactly what happened with the U51 swap of the Sorcerer’s critical buff (and the Templar’s as well).

1. The pen-buff cannot compensate for the loss of critical.

In the current PvE environment, Pen is one of the easiest stats to cap through gear and racial passives. A standard trial group setup can easily reach the cap, whereas Critical is always a scarce and highly valuable stat.

To “utilize” this new Pen, some proposed group compositions have outright dropped other better Mythic sets and instead required the group to use Velothi—a Mythic set whose damage formula was adjusted in the previous patch (don’t get me wrong, it’s still decent, but it’s no longer top-tier for most classes). This is essentially a net-negative trade-off: if Pen is already capped, the buff is completely wasted; if it’s not capped, you have to sacrifice other more valuable stats to fit it, and overall damage often ends up no higher—or even lower.

2. “More choices” is just a fancy wrapper for taking away choice.

Some claim that this change “increases build flexibility,” but the opposite is true:

Before, groups could freely choose which critical buff to bring (Sorc or Nightblade), and that buff applied to the class itself as well—a double benefit.

Now, the Pen-buff forcibly replaces the critical buff, forcing Sorcerers to give up their own critical, while the Pen may be completely irrelevant to the group’s needs. Players have no option to keep the old effect—how is that “flexibility”? It’s simply forcing a mature, established setup to be replaced by an inferior one.

In short, this is not adding new options; it’s removing options from some players and forcing them onto others. If the devs truly wanted to add choice, they could have made the new Pen a separate passive or an optional skill, rather than directly overwriting a core group buff.

What’s more, if this change goes live, Sorcerers will struggle to be dps for the raid team for future. The so-called “more choices” will only reduce the number of viable options.

3. The skill redundancy issue is completely ignored

If anyone believe this change is an improvement, then them cannot ignore the long-standing problem of skill overlap within the Sorcerer class. This update did not address any of the redundant skills (e.g., multiple immobilizes, multiple resource passives), but instead made a one-size-fits-all swap on a key passive. This reveals that the dev team does not truly understand the Sorcerer’s pain points. Rather than giving a trivial Pen-buff, they should have reworked Exploiter or consolidated the Dark Magic passives so that Sorcerers could keep their own critical while providing group Pen through specific actions. This is not “balance” or "more choices "—it’s lazy nerfing.

4. Player feedback was ignored.

A full month before U51 hit the PTS, the community submitted extensive objections, clearly pointing out the drawbacks of this Pen-buff. Yet these comments were completely disregarded in the final update. It shows a disregard for player experience. When a change lacks any data support (the devs have published no statistics showing Pen outperforms Critical, nor any developer commentary), and goes against the practical experience of most players, it again proves that this is merely an attempt to force class representation rates, at the expense of the Sorcerer’s core gameplay.

To sum up in one sentence: If a change forces you to re-stack an easily overcapped stat while taking away a core offensive stat that scales linearly, then it is a nerf—no matter what fancy name it’s given.

(The above arguments also apply equally to the Templar.)

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_NickG @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Can we get some answers here please? (especially since recent letters have repeatedly stated the goal is to listen to player feedback and communicate better) These points (especially point 4 regarding the feedback the team was given about these proposed changes a month ago) need some real transparent answers and accountability from ZOS in regards to why the team felt it necessary to completely blow off a months worth of constructive and early feedback (which was as close to unanimous as any feedback about Sorcerer can get on these forums), especially given the massive recent delays to the class refresh schedule that will ultimately leave this nerf without any actual adjustments to the class for a completely unreasonable period of time.

aLi3nZ · 8:25AM

For PvP seems ok. Just use precise staff instead of sharpened.

Umbracat449 · 8:37AM

Pinktraining wrote: »

Thoriorz wrote: »

No, thanks, I'm waiting for Sorc...

No , Stop discriminating against Nightblade .Sorc is great in PVE /PVP , it doesn't need a rework, it should even needs a nerf. Streak is an unstoppable burst of power, Hardened Ward is the strongest survival skill in the game, not to mention Sorc is the class with the strongest AoE damage in the game.

Pinktraining wrote: »

Silaf wrote: »

Hell no Sorcerer is the class that most of all need a rework.

There's no clear evidence that Sorc is in poor condition. In fact, quite the opposite; Sorc is A-S tier in both PvE and PvP. You can see people everywhere using heavy attacks to deal considerable area damage, or using their pets to absorb attacks from other players.

Furthermore, Sorc gains 108 Weapon Damage per skill through Expert Mage, while Nightblade's Magicka Flood only grants 6% of maximum resources.

Do you really think that's fair?

I recall all the posts wanting sorc to be nerfed.

Turtle_Bot · 9:00AM

aLi3nZ wrote: »

For PvP seems ok. Just use precise staff instead of sharpened.

I explained this earlier, but making this change is a net nerf for PvP. Sharpened has also not been a top tier trait for a while due to everyone using percent mitigations instead of armor because of Corrosive and Onslaught making armor a very mediocre mitigation stat, also not a good trait due to Onslaught being so common now since it is basically corrosive but without the AoE DoT. (These are also part of the reason why Light armor has been so mediocre in PvP recently, since outside of the massively lowered base armor and extra damage taken from martial damage, the pen bonus has really lost it's effectiveness due to the above shifts in the meta to account for the rise of DK and onslaught).

Making the change to Precise over other traits is either:
- A damage/healing loss if previously running Nirnhoned since the lower weapon/spell damage is a direct nerf to tooltips of both damage and healing.
- A damage, buff/debuff and sustain loss if previously running Charged due to lower status proc chance (sundered which is breach and weapon damage, concussed which is vulnerability and overcharged which is mag restore).

Running an extra piece of Light armor is also a nerf since it is a direct reduction in armor values (light armor builds have at most 12-13k armor before resolve buffs/sets) and is extra damage taken from martial attacks per Light armor piece:
- physical (common due to stamsorcs being a solid anti-meta option this patch)
- poison (everywhere to try and counter WW)
- bleed (everywhere due to WW refresh)
- disease (more common now with Necro masteries giving that class a viable niche build for PvP, also common on weapon enchants because the diseased status inflicts defile which reduces healing and shields).

So to make up for this change in the exploiter passive, I'm either losing defense (armor/healing) or offense (status proc uptime and associated buffs/debuffs, or weapon/spell damage) or both at once and that's just to get that 6% crit chance back.

Pinktraining · 9:12AM

Umbracat449 wrote: »

Pinktraining wrote: »

Thoriorz wrote: »

No, thanks, I'm waiting for Sorc...

No , Stop discriminating against Nightblade .Sorc is great in PVE /PVP , it doesn't need a rework, it should even needs a nerf. Streak is an unstoppable burst of power, Hardened Ward is the strongest survival skill in the game, not to mention Sorc is the class with the strongest AoE damage in the game.

Pinktraining wrote: »

Silaf wrote: »

Hell no Sorcerer is the class that most of all need a rework.

There's no clear evidence that Sorc is in poor condition. In fact, quite the opposite; Sorc is A-S tier in both PvE and PvP. You can see people everywhere using heavy attacks to deal considerable area damage, or using their pets to absorb attacks from other players.

Furthermore, Sorc gains 108 Weapon Damage per skill through Expert Mage, while Nightblade's Magicka Flood only grants 6% of maximum resources.

Do you really think that's fair?

I recall all the posts wanting sorc to be nerfed.

If you've noticed what I've said elsewhere, I've clearly stated that the changes to U51 are unacceptable to anyone. Yes, even though I believe Sorc doesn't need further buffs and should be nerfed moderately to balance PvP, but trading critical for pen? That's definitely a foolish and unnecessary nerf.

Furthermore, you'll find that I was right before: after acquiring Font of Power, Sorc doesn't need Expert Mage to continue inflicting so much damage. Changing Expert Mage to Maximum Resource won't significantly impact Sorc, as neither has a cap, and Sorc can easily utilize Maximum Resource thanks to Font of Power. In contrast, trading critical for pen—let's not pretend critical isn't a valuable attribute in various games—trading a rare attribute for one with a cap is, even I, absurd.