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Why give Sorc so many redundant abilities？
ZhuJiuyin
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If U51 were released as it is now, Sorc would be the class with the most redundant abilities in the game (and it already is).
The so-called "unique 2974 Offensive Penetration buff" is a joke, even an insult to Sorc.
Sorc currently possesses:
1. Gaining 5-10% maximum resources across multiple passive abilities (Blood Magic, Expert Summoner)
2. Reduced resource consumption across multiple passive abilities (Unholy Knowledge, Persistence)
3. immobilize across multiple active abilities (Encase, Daedric Tomb)
4. Resource recovery across multiple active and passive abilities (Endless Fury, Energy Overload、Rebate) So why add this "unique Offensive Penetration" to Sorc? Sorc could already obtain a similar buff from Crystal Weapon (although the skill has flaws and low values, it can be easily adjusted), and you even stripped Sorc of criticality, rendering Sorc's only continuous healing skill (Power Surge) unusable. This clearly demonstrates the developers' lack of understanding of the Sorc class mechanics and its pain points (and even the Templars').
@ZOS_Kevin 、 @ZOS_Amy 、 @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This Hybridization wasn't wrong, but it's a severe nerf to Sorc and Templars. Please at least add a corresponding buff to each of these classes on the same class line as compensation.
For example: Blood Magic: When you cast a Dark Magic ability with a cost, you heal for 1600 Health if you are not at full Health. This portion of the ability scales off your Max Health. Provides you with 6% criticality.
Enduring Rays: Increases the duration of your Sun Fire, Eclipse, Solar Flare, and Nova abilities by 2 seconds and grants you 10% weapon and spell damage.
These buffs only need to apply to Sorc and Templar classes and should serve as a transition until these two classes are reworked, or the current changes to Sorc and Templar should be canceled altogether until the classes are reworked. There's no need to cause these two classes to suffer significant losses for the sake of hybridization.
"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.
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Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's worth noting that the penetration is a group buff and that these buffs are meant to be the reason why Templar and Sorc get invited into trials in the first place. The general idea here was for every class to have a unique passive to avoid situations we see in other MMOs where for example Druids aren't allowed into a raid because they don't deal enough damage or don't heal enough. If every class has a unique buff, then no matter the state of balance, there will always be a spot open for them at the table, because the entire group benefits just from them being there. When Major Vulnerability was still unique to Necro it didn't matter that their damage wasn't the best, because the group still wanted them to provide that debuff, because it would more than make up for their lack in personal damage by an increase in group damage.
And therein lies the issue. Damage.
In PvP these buffs are both quite valued, but for PvE they are largely expendable. Nobody is complaining about a lack of penetration in PvE nowadays. We aren't in Summerset. There is penetration in the new CP as well.
All this did is making light armor even more irrelevant, because people would rather run daggers, the Thief mundus and all medium armor, even on magicka focused builds, because you can never have too much weapon damage, but you can absolutely have too much penetration.
Well, I guess the tanks will be happy that they can run something else than Crimson Oath etc. But if you don't actually offer them sets that they'd prefer to run, they'll instead threaten the Sorcerer's spot in the group - just like all the Major Vulnerability sets (combined with lack of damage/utility) have slowly driven Necros out of raids (until their new class masteries brought them back by making Necros be the best at utilizing those sets).
Things will likely be fine and the armor from Templars will make no-death runs just a bit easier to achieve. Purely defensive item sets in PvE are quite unpopular - they have to at least also provide some offensive benefits, like Lucent Echos or Pearlescent Ward to be considered. This should tell you how desireable an armor buff is in PvE.
It's not the end of the world, but it is kind of a letdown.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.1 -
Pinktraining✭✭✭Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.
A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.
ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.2 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This will hopefully be addressed in the rework. they know that dark magic is garbage, which is why our class masteries are OP.
I expect there will be some nerfs there when they fix up the mess that is sorc passives and skills.
As for the 3k pen, it's actually really nice in all content for a sorc.
We don't have any pen passives, this addresses that.
Sure it's not going to help classes that DO have a pen passive, but a trial group can choose where they get their pen from, and if there is a sorc then that's 3k you can just tick off.
On a sorc tank running calc defence? This is fantastic.
Don't forget, this is a group wide buff, not a debuff on targets hit, so for trash or cleave it's amazing.
outside of trial groups, it's actually very strong, stronger than crit % if you're under the pen cap. For 4 man or solo content it's extremely good.
Go do a 3m or 6m parse and you'll see what I'm talking about.2 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭No organized trial team would lack penetration, especially now that almost every team has Alkosh werewolves. 3000 team penetration is completely redundant, not to mention trading the most important attribute, critical, for the second most important (or even the least important) penetration, which is completely counterproductive.
Minor & Major Breach = 8922
CP = 700
Crusher = 2108
Alkosh = 6000 These essential sources of penetration/armor reduction alone already reach 17730, only 500 short of 18200.
Add to that the equally common skills, gear, and passives, such as Crimson Oath's Rive/Tremorscale/Runic Sunder, etc., and even Sorc's Crystal Weapon, which provide ample penetration for the raid.
Furthermore, I've seen many Sorc players on the guild's Discord reporting losing at least 10K or more DPS on VSS first boss, and my own testing confirms the same conclusion.Edited by ZhuJiuyin on August 4, 2026 10:05AM"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.1 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
✭No organized trial team would lack penetration, especially now that almost every team has Alkosh werewolves. 3000 team penetration is completely redundant, not to mention trading the most important attribute, critical, for the second most important (or even the least important) penetration, which is completely counterproductive.
Minor & Major Breach = 8922
CP = 700
Crusher = 2108
Alkosh = 6000 These essential sources of penetration/armor reduction alone already reach 17730, only 500 short of 18200.
Add to that the equally common skills, gear, and passives, such as Crimson Oath's Rive/Tremorscale/Runic Sunder, etc., and even Sorc's Crystal Weapon, which provide ample penetration for the raid.
Furthermore, I've seen many Sorc players on the guild's Discord reporting losing at least 10K or more DPS on 21M dummies, and my own testing confirms the same conclusion.
i can understand you will lost few dmg in some real content like pvp or 4 mand dungeon,but how you lost dps in trial dummy?
trial dummy give you full time minor savagery/prophecy too, so you should not lost anything from dummy1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@ZhuJiuyin You're asking the wrong question.
The question isn't "why would any group want this", it's "why would you put someone in alkosh when the group doesn't need that 6k pen anymore?"
major / minor breach and infused crusher, peircing CP and the sorc buff and you're sitting on 14704 pen.
there are so many options from there that don't require a dps giving up a 5pc set bonus. hell, just running runic sunder and 1pc light and you're done.
You could have a tank running calc defence and crystal weapon.
Stop looking at how we're doing it now and thinking "but we're at pen cap, we don't need this buff" and start looking for better ways of hitting pen cap now that we get 3k for free3 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »No organized trial team would lack penetration, especially now that almost every team has Alkosh werewolves. 3000 team penetration is completely redundant, not to mention trading the most important attribute, critical, for the second most important (or even the least important) penetration, which is completely counterproductive.
Minor & Major Breach = 8922
CP = 700
Crusher = 2108
Alkosh = 6000 These essential sources of penetration/armor reduction alone already reach 17730, only 500 short of 18200.
Add to that the equally common skills, gear, and passives, such as Crimson Oath's Rive/Tremorscale/Runic Sunder, etc., and even Sorc's Crystal Weapon, which provide ample penetration for the raid.
Furthermore, I've seen many Sorc players on the guild's Discord reporting losing at least 10K or more DPS on 21M dummies, and my own testing confirms the same conclusion.
i can understand you will lost few dmg in some real content like pvp or 4 mand dungeon,but how you lost dps in trial dummy?
trial dummy give you full time minor savagery/prophecy too, so you should not lost anything from dummy
Oh, you're right. I was a bit angry and made a mistake. Our testing method was to go to VSS to fight the dragon (and compare the difference between canceling Exploitation's 6% critical )."是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »No organized trial team would lack penetration, especially now that almost every team has Alkosh werewolves. 3000 team penetration is completely redundant, not to mention trading the most important attribute, critical, for the second most important (or even the least important) penetration, which is completely counterproductive.
Minor & Major Breach = 8922
CP = 700
Crusher = 2108
Alkosh = 6000 These essential sources of penetration/armor reduction alone already reach 17730, only 500 short of 18200.
Add to that the equally common skills, gear, and passives, such as Crimson Oath's Rive/Tremorscale/Runic Sunder, etc., and even Sorc's Crystal Weapon, which provide ample penetration for the raid.
Furthermore, I've seen many Sorc players on the guild's Discord reporting losing at least 10K or more DPS on 21M dummies, and my own testing confirms the same conclusion.
i can understand you will lost few dmg in some real content like pvp or 4 mand dungeon,but how you lost dps in trial dummy?
trial dummy give you full time minor savagery/prophecy too, so you should not lost anything from dummy
Oh, you're right. I was a bit angry and made a mistake. Our testing method was to go to VSS to fight the dragon (and compare the difference between canceling Exploitation's 6% critical ).
not one person in your group can run assassination?0 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭@ZhuJiuyin You're asking the wrong question.
The question isn't "why would any group want this", it's "why would you put someone in alkosh when the group doesn't need that 6k pen anymore?"
major / minor breach and infused crusher, peircing CP and the sorc buff and you're sitting on 14704 pen.
there are so many options from there that don't require a dps giving up a 5pc set bonus. hell, just running runic sunder and 1pc light and you're done.
You could have a tank running calc defence and crystal weapon.
Stop looking at how we're doing it now and thinking "but we're at pen cap, we don't need this buff" and start looking for better ways of hitting pen cap now that we get 3k for free
Let me reiterate: in PvE, any approach that trades critical strike chance or weapon/spell damage for other secondary stats is a massive nerf. This is because once penetration/critical damage reaches its cap, the benefit drops to zero. Furthermore, the Sorc class is designed to rely on high-frequency critical strike chance for both damage and healing; removing critical strike chance from Sorc is essentially killing the class.
Furthermore, the loss to the raid from having a DPS player wear an extra DPS set far outweighs the loss from having a Tank abandon Lucent, Pearlescent, Turning Tide, Saxhleel, Powerful Assault, etc., in favor of Crimson Oath's Rive (according to your formula, 14704 is still 3500 Pens short).
"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.1 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »No organized trial team would lack penetration, especially now that almost every team has Alkosh werewolves. 3000 team penetration is completely redundant, not to mention trading the most important attribute, critical, for the second most important (or even the least important) penetration, which is completely counterproductive.
Minor & Major Breach = 8922
CP = 700
Crusher = 2108
Alkosh = 6000 These essential sources of penetration/armor reduction alone already reach 17730, only 500 short of 18200.
Add to that the equally common skills, gear, and passives, such as Crimson Oath's Rive/Tremorscale/Runic Sunder, etc., and even Sorc's Crystal Weapon, which provide ample penetration for the raid.
Furthermore, I've seen many Sorc players on the guild's Discord reporting losing at least 10K or more DPS on 21M dummies, and my own testing confirms the same conclusion.
i can understand you will lost few dmg in some real content like pvp or 4 mand dungeon,but how you lost dps in trial dummy?
trial dummy give you full time minor savagery/prophecy too, so you should not lost anything from dummy
Oh, you're right. I was a bit angry and made a mistake. Our testing method was to go to VSS to fight the dragon (and compare the difference between canceling Exploitation's 6% critical ).
not one person in your group can run assassination?
This is a test, so NB or related skill lines will not be used."是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ARG I don't get it.
This change is OBJECTIVELY very good for solo and small group.
It's ONLY bad if you are in trial group with someone running Alkosh. In any other situation you get a set back. Tremotscale or CoR or whatever you're doing to hit pen cap.
Yes, this is a TERRIBLE change if group compositions can't change and groups are not allowed to run different sets or something, but that's not the case.
Here is a counter to the ENTIRE thing for large group content. ONE PERSON RUNS ASSASSINATION.
Look guys, I did it. I hit undo on the entire thing.
it's a group wide PEN BUFF. It's going to be really good in some contexts. Like anything where there is cleave and you're not getting all the debuffs on all the targets.4 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭You yourself admitted that it's only "useful in certain situations." For Sorc, this not only reduces DPS, but also, because Sorc lacks strong area-of-effect damage, even an extra 3000 pen cannot compensate for this inherent weakness, not to mention that this isn't a free 3000 pen, but rather traded for a 6% crit chance.
If 3000 pen is really that good, then @ZOS_Kevin I propose that Sorc and NB swap buffs, giving Sorc the 6% crit chance and NB the 3000 pen.
"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.2 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
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Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
✭You yourself admitted that it's only "useful in certain situations." For Sorc, this not only reduces DPS, but also, because Sorc lacks strong area-of-effect damage, even an extra 3000 pen cannot compensate for this inherent weakness, not to mention that this isn't a free 3000 pen, but rather traded for a 6% crit chance.
If 3000 pen is really that good, then @ZOS_Kevin I propose that Sorc and NB swap buffs, giving Sorc the 6% crit chance and NB the 3000 pen.
This is actually a good idea.because nb have 3 passive about crit(6%+8%+6%) but not have pen,so them and other 4 class is rely alkosh...1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
literally what i've been looking at all night and losing my mind.
tremorscale + 1pc light
just COR
all necro's
arcanists with 3 skills
honestly, most groups should be thinking, how can we get this buff and get rid of alkosh entirely.1 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh."是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.1 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
but they won't need to anymore!
That's the point we're making!
stop looking at the best thing to do without this change, and start thinking about what the best thing to do with this change.
it's like getting signet and saying it's terrible because you keep casting your ult like you did with velothi.2 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
but they won't need to anymore!
That's the point we're making!
stop looking at the best thing to do without this change, and start thinking about what the best thing to do with this change.
it's like getting signet and saying it's terrible because you keep casting your ult like you did with velothi.
In fact, considering that Sorc DPS is already rare in the Final Trial, and its value was further diminished after the Dragon Knight rework, top teams will still choose to use Alkosh rather than bring a Sorc. And since many teams are already using the Sorc Tank, this 3000 pen doesn't help Sorc overall; in fact, as I mentioned earlier, it's a net loss."是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.3 -
Pinktraining✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »You yourself admitted that it's only "useful in certain situations." For Sorc, this not only reduces DPS, but also, because Sorc lacks strong area-of-effect damage, even an extra 3000 pen cannot compensate for this inherent weakness, not to mention that this isn't a free 3000 pen, but rather traded for a 6% crit chance.
If 3000 pen is really that good, then @ZOS_Kevin I propose that Sorc and NB swap buffs, giving Sorc the 6% crit chance and NB the 3000 pen.
This is actually a good idea.because nb have 3 passive about crit(6%+8%+6%) but not have pen,so them and other 4 class is rely alkosh...
As NB player, all I can say is: No, thanks.
Any experienced player knows that in most cases, the benefit of 3000 points (whether for an individual or a team) is far less than a 6% critical hit chance.
I do have many complaints about Sorc, but I absolutely oppose this practice of offering rotten tomatoes as a gift to a specific class. No class deserves this treatment. ZOS really messed up the Temple and Sorc this time.Edited by Pinktraining on August 4, 2026 11:51AM0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@ZhuJiuyin You're asking the wrong question.
The question isn't "why would any group want this", it's "why would you put someone in alkosh when the group doesn't need that 6k pen anymore?"
major / minor breach and infused crusher, peircing CP and the sorc buff and you're sitting on 14704 pen.
there are so many options from there that don't require a dps giving up a 5pc set bonus. hell, just running runic sunder and 1pc light and you're done.
You could have a tank running calc defence and crystal weapon.
Stop looking at how we're doing it now and thinking "but we're at pen cap, we don't need this buff" and start looking for better ways of hitting pen cap now that we get 3k for free
The thing is, this change isn't JUST a nerf to damage and looking at it as such is just shows a lack of understanding of the class that is on par with the combat teams clear lack of understanding.
This change is also a nerf to survivability (healing from surge procs) on a class that already has to deal with clunky healing options (from it's own kit) by design (because it's supposed to have mobility, pets and shields as blockers to give opportunities to use it's clunky heals due to not having mitigation passives, buffs and bonuses with reliable instant heals like the other classes have), which is something that changing crit chance to pen does literally nothing to compensate for because pen has zero impact on healing in this game.
However, the most frustrating part about this change, is that it shows that the combat balance team has absolutely zero concept/understanding of the design of Sorcerer and the interactions and synergies of Sorcerers abilities and also a complete refusal by said team to listen to (let alone understand) the constructive feedback from players who were explaining to the team how and why it is a bad change back when it was first proposed (hell, even people who have continuously called for nerfs to Sorc for years, were left confused why this change was being made to Sorc and that keeping crit chance would have been the better option with something else like crit damage given to NB instead given NB masteries and abilities by design want more crit damage to reach the higher cap rather than just more frequent crits).
There would have been significantly less pushback against this change if ZOS had come out and made the following change and included some patch notes along the lines of:
Exploiter Passive (Sorcerer Dark Magic Line)
"Activating a Dark Magic ability grants you and group members 3k pen for 20 seconds. You also gain 1300 crit chance (or whatever minor prophecy gives) for 20 seconds."
Dev Notes:
"We are changing Sorcerers unique group buff, but we also understand and have heard the feedback about crit chance being a crucial synergy for Sorcs kit both offensively and defensively, but that synergy will be something that will be changing in the future with the class refresh, thus we are temporarily adjusting this passive so that the group buff to penetration will be the main focus of this passive and remain after the refresh, but the class will temporarily retain the crit chance aspect for itself while it is waiting for it's refresh to happen."
This would have shown the combat team is not only getting, but listening to and understanding the feedback being given to them, but also willing to work with the community to implement temporary options to reduce issues in the short term while also laying out their intentions for the longer term goals (emphasis on long with the recent delays to the refresh schedule).2 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
in fact..I got oc trifecta in this patch..
yes, i know the pure class meta so we can see more alkosh again
but i mean is if one day all class can like arcanist/subclass, have high pen stats,we can like them give up alkosh and run good set like null arca too..0 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
but they won't need to anymore!
That's the point we're making!
stop looking at the best thing to do without this change, and start thinking about what the best thing to do with this change.
it's like getting signet and saying it's terrible because you keep casting your ult like you did with velothi.
In fact, considering that Sorc DPS is already rare in the Final Trial, and its value was further diminished after the Dragon Knight rework, top teams will still choose to use Alkosh rather than bring a Sorc. And since many teams are already using the Sorc Tank, this 3000 pen doesn't help Sorc overall; in fact, as I mentioned earlier, it's a net loss.
but it isn't you can give sorc any buff to this passive,sorc tank still priority than sorc dps...?0 -
Pinktraining✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
in fact..I got oc trifecta in this patch..
yes, i know the pure class meta so we can see more alkosh again
but i mean is if one day all class can like arcanist/subclass, have high pen stats,we can like them give up alkosh and run good set like null arca too..
But what's the cost?
Wouldn't everyone having high pen make all builds homogenized or lose their uniqueness?
I'm not against let DPS players no longer needing to use alkosh or provide unique defensive stats for the raid, but that should be based on other "better sources," and these sources shouldn't be built on sacrificing more important attributes (such as critical hit rate, critical damage, and damage).
U51 was undoubtedly a change made at the expense of Templars and Sorc, and this should absolutely not happen to any class.0 -
Tannus15✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Sorry, I should make my position clear.
This is a nerf. 6% crit chance is better than a group pen buff, becuase a crit % buff is ALWAYS good. There is no time where getting 6% crit is wasted, where there are definately times when getting 3k pen is wasted.
Anyone who has spent time trying to get a good parse on sorc knows how much impact crit chance has on a class that has SO MUCH rng. Good parse, bad parse, it's really down to how many frag procs, how many of those procs were crits, then how many static reverb procs in the first half when the % is low compounded with how fast you can weave.
All that said, 3k pen is NOT garbage. It's a solid group buff, and there are really good reasons that you might want one in your group. Necro's are really the big boy dps now, and as I pointed out, necro's are at pen cap with no other sets required.
For smaller group content it's even better, and for solo it's amazing. 3k pen is way more dps for a solo sorc than the crit chance. Also solo sorcs can run conservation of energy.
The problem is the same problem we had with exploitation already.
The passive doesn't do anything else.
In fact the entire skill line is garbage, which is why 2 class masteries allow you to proc the passives without casting dark magic skills.
Sorc DD's are behind in a lot of ways when they aren't humping the dummy.
Low crit%, low crit damage and low pen.
The problem here is that they addressed 1 weakness by making another weakness worse and other classes don't want this assistance as much, so sorcs are less desireable overall.
I really don't know how we ended up in a place where minor sorcery wasn't on the sorcerer, and it would make a lot more sense for the sorc to keep that buff compared to brutality on DK's.
honestly nightblade should have crit, sorc should have damage, templar should have a healing recieved and dk have the armour buff, but whatever.
TLDR; it's not a bad buff, especially for sorcs who need the help for pen, but overall it's still a nerf.2 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Pinktraining wrote: »Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.
A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.
ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.
The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.Best Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
20 Argonians
7x IR, 7x GH, 8x TTT, 5x GS, 7x DB, 1x PB, 4x SBS, 1x MM, 1x US, 2x CB, 1x Unchained1 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭
✭
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?Pinktraining wrote: »Renato90085 wrote: »Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
in fact..I got oc trifecta in this patch..
yes, i know the pure class meta so we can see more alkosh again
but i mean is if one day all class can like arcanist/subclass, have high pen stats,we can like them give up alkosh and run good set like null arca too..
But what's the cost?
Wouldn't everyone having high pen make all builds homogenized or lose their uniqueness?
I'm not against let DPS players no longer needing to use alkosh or provide unique defensive stats for the raid, but that should be based on other "better sources," and these sources shouldn't be built on sacrificing more important attributes (such as critical hit rate, critical damage, and damage).
U51 was undoubtedly a change made at the expense of Templars and Sorc, and this should absolutely not happen to any class.
a passive slot not the better sources?0 -
ZhuJiuyin✭✭✭✭✭
✭Renato90085 wrote: »Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
but they won't need to anymore!
That's the point we're making!
stop looking at the best thing to do without this change, and start thinking about what the best thing to do with this change.
it's like getting signet and saying it's terrible because you keep casting your ult like you did with velothi.
In fact, considering that Sorc DPS is already rare in the Final Trial, and its value was further diminished after the Dragon Knight rework, top teams will still choose to use Alkosh rather than bring a Sorc. And since many teams are already using the Sorc Tank, this 3000 pen doesn't help Sorc overall; in fact, as I mentioned earlier, it's a net loss.
but it isn't you can give sorc any buff to this passive,sorc tank still priority than sorc dps...?
I believe this is the case. Currently (U50), the only real damage Sorc can provide to the raid is the 6% increase from Calculated Defense (primarily provided by the Sorc Tank) and Exploitation 6% critical . Major Berserk, previously provided by Sorc DPS, is now mainly cast by Dragoons.
In U51, with Exploitation gone, the raid will have to rely on Nightblade to provide that 6% critical . Since current trial mechanics largely emphasize AoE, a raid doesn't need many single-target DPS, so there's a high chance of having a NB but no Sorc (DPS). Given Sorc's powerful Conservation of Energy, Sorc is more likely to serve as a tank (or healer) rather than a DPS.Edited by ZhuJiuyin on August 4, 2026 12:55PM"是燭九陰，是燭龍。"──by "The Classic of Mountains and Seas "English is not my first language,If something is ambiguous, rude due to context and translation issues, etc., please remind me, thanks.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭HatchetHaro wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.
A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.
ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.
The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.
Accessibility is all well and good, but not to the direct detriment of others, which is what this change is. This change is not a "more choices" change, it is a change that removes options from some to give some options to others. It's also not like ZOS was warned that this change as is was a bad idea and they should make adjustments to it. There was plenty of feedback when it was originally proposed 1-2 months ago, yet ZOS completely ignored that feedback (that was actually constructive for once).
If ZOS had simply kept the crit chance somewhere in the kit (even just for the Sorc only, not as a group buff) to compensate for this change, there would literally zero complaints about it, but ZOS didn't do that, so this change ends up as a direct nerf, especially to the existing limited synergies remaining within the class kit, that (based on current targeted refresh scheduling) is only likely to (maybe) see it's refresh end of next year at the earliest.2 -
Pinktraining✭✭✭HatchetHaro wrote: »This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.Renato90085 wrote: »[
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?
a passive slot not the better sources?
If this 3000 pen or armor were free , yours absolutely right; it would increase team composition diversity.
But unfortunately, this 3000 pen/armor (which has a cap in PvE) comes at the cost of the 6% critical and 10% damage (which has no cap under any circumstances). This will undoubtedly create resentment among players. Not to mention that the 6% critical and 10% damage are reflected in healing, while the 3000 penetration/armor won't.1 -
HatchetHaro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
We are literally getting more.Turtle_Bot wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »Pinktraining wrote: »Putting aside other considerations, in most PvE situations, penetration and Armor are neither necessary nor particularly important.
A Dragoon wearing Alkosh armor can provide a raid with 6000 penetration + Major Berserk + Major Protection + Minor Brutality + 5% Fire Damage + Major Brutality and Sorcery. In comparison, this "Unique 2974 raid Penetration or Armor buff" is a joke for any class.
ZOS's decision this time is like giving out expired rotten tomatoes as precious gifts to Sorcerers and Templars. I sympathize with those classes forced to accept these buffs.
The whole point we're making is that more options for Penetration means more ways we can structure group comps.Renato90085 wrote: »
I'm not against buff sorc
but i still remember arcanist/supclass meta,the arcanist or subclass with velothi/ansuul have 6-7k pen
then my sorc/nb/dk/templar/warden alway have 13-15k pen
so nobody should run alkosh anymore,the tank only one should run pen set is tremorscale
and use a passive trade a 5p set is not a lost, you not lost anything in real content..because any role nb still can give you crit
and maybe i can free from alkosh jail..
Pure classes are being used more frequently than before, so Alkosh has actually been revived by the trial teams. You can check the ESO-LOG; the top teams at OChm are all using Alkosh.
This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.
Accessibility is all well and good, but not to the direct detriment of others, which is what this change is. This change is not a "more choices" change, it is a change that removes options from some to give some options to others. It's also not like ZOS was warned that this change as is was a bad idea and they should make adjustments to it. There was plenty of feedback when it was originally proposed 1-2 months ago, yet ZOS completely ignored that feedback (that was actually constructive for once).
If ZOS had simply kept the crit chance somewhere in the kit (even just for the Sorc only, not as a group buff) to compensate for this change, there would literally zero complaints about it, but ZOS didn't do that, so this change ends up as a direct nerf, especially to the existing limited synergies remaining within the class kit, that (based on current targeted refresh scheduling) is only likely to (maybe) see it's refresh end of next year at the earliest.
U50: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance
U51 PTS: Templar + Sorcerer in group = +6% Weapon and Spell Critical Chance AND 2974 Armor Penetration.
And guess what, even if whatever group you're in decides they don't need that unique group-wide Armor Penetration buff from Sorcerer, you can still run it and it won't be any worse.Pinktraining wrote: »HatchetHaro wrote: »This is not a bad thing! We're getting more choices! Trying to structure any argument against accessibility and choice using the statement that "top teams are all doing X" doesn't mean that it automatically applies to everyone. Not every team wants to or has to run Alkosh. Not everyone wants to do sweaty strats.Renato90085 wrote: »[
give up alkosh how to change warden/sorc/nb/dk/templar dps build?
a passive slot not the better sources?
If this 3000 pen or armor were free , yours absolutely right; it would increase team composition diversity.
But unfortunately, this 3000 pen/armor (which has a cap in PvE) comes at the cost of the 6% critical and 10% damage (which has no cap under any circumstances). This will undoubtedly create resentment among players. Not to mention that the 6% critical and 10% damage are reflected in healing, while the 3000 penetration/armor won't.
Given the best comp option that I can find to utilize that 2974 Armor Pen, the 2891 Pen actually results in +6.1% damage.
I don't know where you got that 10% damage number from, but let's fact check that!
Turns out, that +6% critical chance from Minor Prophecy results in a +6% damage difference when you are at or below 20% crit chance.
Above that, at 60% base critical chance, the damage difference from the +6% critical chance drops down to +4.29%.
What this means is, if you have, at minimum, the Thief stone with all Divines armour granting +11% critical chance (on top of the base 10% critical chance), this 2974 Armor Pen is already a buff.
THIS 👏 IS 👏 A 👏 BUFF 👏. Seriously, what are you guys complaining about?
Edited by HatchetHaro on August 4, 2026 3:27PMBest Argonian NA and I will fight anyone for it
20 Argonians
7x IR, 7x GH, 8x TTT, 5x GS, 7x DB, 1x PB, 4x SBS, 1x MM, 1x US, 2x CB, 1x Unchained2