U51 Feedback Thread for Classes and Abilities

sayswhoto · 4:58AM

sayswhoto wrote: »

Maybe someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but itsn't the +35% damage to Strife a massive buff?

If you combine that with Soulcleaver (+15% to siphoning abilities and +12% based on health) with Champion Points (ex. +6% to DOT's), isn't it then approaching base damage between Subterran Assualt and Merciless Resolve (notoriously hard hitting abilities)? And this ability will tick for that damage every 2 seconds for 10seconds and heal 40%, assuming it's morphed to Swallow Soul?

That's in addition to NB's also having Merciless Resolve. So will NB's be able to rapid fire Merciless Resolve levels of damage now?

Ignore this post. I misunderstoof the tooltip. Shows you how much I use Siphoning.

VinnyGambini · 5:16AM

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

Why give Sorc so many redundant abilities?

If U51 were released as it is now, Sorc would be the class with the most redundant abilities in the game (and it already is).

Sorc currently has:
1. Gaining 5-10% maximum resources across multiple passive abilities (Blood Magic, Expert Summoner)
2. Reducing resource consumption across multiple passive abilities (Unholy Knowledge, Persistence)
3. Immobilizing debuffs across multiple active abilities (Encase, Daedric Tomb)
4. Resource recovery across multiple active and passive abilities (Endless Fury, Energy Overload, Rebate)

Now, why add this unique Offensive Penetration to Sorc? Sorc could already get a similar buff from Crystal Weapon (although the skill has flaws and low values, it can be easily adjusted), and you even stripped Sorc of Critical, making Sorc's only continuous healing skill (Power Surge) unusable. This clearly demonstrates the developers' lack of understanding of the Sorc class mechanism and its pain points (even the Templars).

@ZOS_Kevin, @ZOS_Amy, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom This hybridization wasn't wrong, but it's a severe nerf to Sorc and Templars. Please at least add a corresponding buff to each of these classes on the same class line as compensation.

For example: Blood Magic: When you cast a Dark Magic ability with a cost, you heal for 1600 Health if you are not at full Health. This portion of the ability scales off your Max Health. Provides you with 6% criticality.

Enduring Rays: Increases the duration of your Sun Fire, Eclipse, Solar Flare, and Nova abilities by 2 seconds and grants you 10% weapon and spell damage.

These buffs only need to apply to Sorc and Templars, and should be used as a transition until these two classes are reworked, or simply cancel this change for Sorc and Templars until the classes are reworked. There's no need for these two classes to suffer significant losses for the sake of hybridization.

Fully agree, buffs for player only, not group is an easy solution.

huskandhunger · 7:10AM

If we are going to have the costs to werewolf abilities return very close to the pre-rework Werewolf then we need to also reset the damage values that lost roughly 1/3rd of their original values, remove the "while in PVP/battle spirit" reductions to the werewolf passive Feral Cruelty and Berserker Bleed duration.

Hexys · 7:19AM

DK Wings can't give 50% projectile mitigation flat for 6 seconds.
- Make it like ball of lightning to mitigate 100% on 1 projectile, or just keep it 6 seconds and change it to 10-15% mitigation. DK's are unkillable for any ranged build.

Also regarding PvP balance, diversity is broken, anything melee is overshadowed by DK, it makes the game so boring because any theorycrafting for other classes is just 'meh'.
- Keep DK class masteries to 2/5 and change any other class to allow for 3 or 4 class masteries
- Disable class masteries in ww form

Easy and simple

JonesHeathen · 7:49AM

About changes to Battle Spirit.

Just so I am not misunderstood I love ESO PvP as it makes any playstyle viable, solo, zerg, coordinated grp, ball grp, smallscale, tower-running, bombing, etc and I have nothing against certain playstyles.

As far as I can see you are giving hard debuff again to a group combat, in a MMO game. While leaving tower running small-scale basically untouched. It feels like you are only listening to a feedback from Zerg that wants all all survival skills removed so they can just go and mash buttons on damage abelites and tower runners with mindset of "Me run tower, group chase me... me strong... me kill 1~2 zergs in tower.... me strong... group cant kill me for 2~3 min.... me strong.... me good..... me run tower."

If you want to cater to casual community for whatever reason, they hate small-scale way more then they do ball grps and coordinated groups.

I understand reason for some debuffs but it's a bit too much to basically to leave any coordination hardly viable to fight against megazerg while leaving skilled small-scale barely killable if they decide just to run, which is 95% of it's gameplay.

Panderbander · 7:53AM

For everyone calling to have every class mastery disabled for werewolf, please know it is exactly ONE class mastery that is a problem and it's one that was pointed out since day one of the u50 PTS: Conservation of Energy.

There is no need to call for a blanket removal for werewolves. This one thing is literally the problem, for more than just werewolves, even.

ArctosCethlenn · 7:57AM

I'm ok with the strife buffs, but there is one mechanical issue that really needs to be fixed: last I checked (5 minutes ago), strife/funnel/swallow soul damage absorbed by a damage shield is treated as dealing zero damage and therefore does zero healing. Damaging an absorption shield should still be treated as doing damage, an enemy's defensive shields should not hard counter a significant portion of my defenses.

As part of this, if you already have a strife/etc hot active and then cast it again on a target that is now shielded, the previously ticking hot is overwritten with a hot that ticks for zero every 2 seconds. That's one of the biggest flaws with the skill, you can remove your own hots from both yourself and allies if you pick the wrong target to cast strife on. And in cyrodiil, where players take less healing from all sources if they have 8+ hots on them, those zero value strife/funnels COUNT TOWARDS THAT PENALTY.

edit: fix it for tether and mag jabs while you're at it.

Turtle_Bot · 8:42AM

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class changes coming in Update 51. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

For context regarding timeline for changes, stats or number changes for skills are changes we can make within the PTS cycle. If the changes or suggestions require more technical changes, we will take those to the combat team and update timelines based on what the team is able to do.

@ZOS_Kevin why is the combat team pushing ahead so blindly with the objectively terrible change for Sorcerers "unique class buff" that completely deletes the tiny amount of remaining synergy the class lines had with each other. Especially since ZOS already removed the main reason to bring a Sorcerer at all into groups by giving DK Major berserk but with better uptime, better skills, and easier to activate conditions than Sorcerers Storm Atronach Ultimate had for that same buff.

Sorcerers class masteries and passives already synergize far better with non-class and sub-classed abilities than they do with Sorcerers own class skills and the removal of minor Prophecy for a penetration buff (which doesn't tie in at all with any of Sorcerers class skills, or other passives, and is completely useless for group PvE content which is already at penetration cap without this buff) is just the cutting that final lingering thread of synergy the class lines had with each other, all for what? Just to be unique? Why not give Nightblade a unique crit damage buff and make Sorc the class for crit chance, since Sorcerer has abilities directly tied to high crit chance and Nightblade has abilities (and masteries) directly tied to max crit damage.

Someone from the combat team needs to come onto the forums, explain their reasons and expected goals for this change, why they think the removal of this last bit of in-class synergy was needed and actually do what @ZOS_NickG said ZOS would be focusing on in his most recent letter, communication and transparency.

Schlaflos · 9:39AM

Increase the Werewolf abilities by three times? What was the point of spending all that time reworking things just to bring part of it back to the level it was at before? Wouldn’t it be enough to increase the costs to double instead of immediately going completely overboard with the nerfs? And of course, the DK — the holy grail of this game — remains untouched.

Why not buff the other classes instead? Then nobody would be complaining about the rest.

And please buff them where they actually need help, and give everyone except DK and Sorcerer an additional option alongside the two class passives.

For example, something similar to Energy Retention on Sorcerer. Take Arcanist in PvP: its damage isn’t the problem, nor is anything else about its kit. The real issue is simply its poor sustain compared to the other three classes: DK, Werewolf, and Sorc.

Please take some time to actually think about where the other classes need improvements instead of just nerfing everything one by one. We’re all frustrated with how things are currently going.

There hasn’t been a proper Guardian/class refresh, and apparently we’re supposed to wait until sometime in 2027. I honestly think Guardian will probably arrive within the next 10 months anyway — but when it does, please don’t immediately destroy the things that are new and actually fun.

Tendo163 · 9:43AM

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class changes coming in Update 51. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

For context regarding timeline for changes, stats or number changes for skills are changes we can make within the PTS cycle. If the changes or suggestions require more technical changes, we will take those to the combat team and update timelines based on what the team is able to do.

The problem is 3 fold;

Power lash and volcanic whip are the strongest direct damage non channeled abilities in the game. Without spec’ing into damage, these whips are still pushing close to 10k on a critical strike.

With the whips in mind, you then have corrosive which reduces your incoming damage notably and gives you unlimited pen, this leads to massive indefensible damage that is essentially unavoidable and still does massive damage through block.

Heart of flame then comes in. This brings infinite sustain, which not only makes you immune to getting caught up in CC and immobilization, but also nullifies the opportunity cost of bad sustain when spec’ing into damage - that damage that then leads to massive whip numbers, numbers irreplicable by any other class in the game.

Dk Proc whips need to be dialed back a minimum of 30%+. I can settle for a glass cannon dk build hitting a 14k whip 5 times, but for the average dk to hit me and anyone in aoe with a 16k - 22k whip in every match is just ridiculous. I cannot hit someone with a dawnbreaker on a glass cannon build and do that much damage and its an ultimate.

If your idea of balance is making non ultimate abilities this strong for every class, and eliminating sustain from the equation, im not going to lie, I will simply just start playing a different game.

Skorro · 10:45AM

People above me have said all I wanted to say but want to hard agree that you need to revisit some things here:
- Werewolf stam changes 👎
- Templar change 👎

tomofhyrule · 10:54AM

Tendo163 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class changes coming in Update 51. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

For context regarding timeline for changes, stats or number changes for skills are changes we can make within the PTS cycle. If the changes or suggestions require more technical changes, we will take those to the combat team and update timelines based on what the team is able to do.

The problem is 3 fold;

Power lash and volcanic whip are the strongest direct damage non channeled abilities in the game. Without spec’ing into damage, these whips are still pushing close to 10k on a critical strike.

With the whips in mind, you then have corrosive which reduces your incoming damage notably and gives you unlimited pen, this leads to massive indefensible damage that is essentially unavoidable and still does massive damage through block.

Heart of flame then comes in. This brings infinite sustain, which not only makes you immune to getting caught up in CC and immobilization, but also nullifies the opportunity cost of bad sustain when spec’ing into damage - that damage that then leads to massive whip numbers, numbers irreplicable by any other class in the game.

Dk Proc whips need to be dialed back a minimum of 30%+. I can settle for a glass cannon dk build hitting a 14k whip 5 times, but for the average dk to hit me and anyone in aoe with a 16k - 22k whip in every match is just ridiculous. I cannot hit someone with a dawnbreaker on a glass cannon build and do that much damage and its an ultimate.

If your idea of balance is making non ultimate abilities this strong for every class, and eliminating sustain from the equation, im not going to lie, I will simply just start playing a different game.

I play DK and I fully agree with the above. DK as is is astronomically overpowered compared to everything else for these reasons.

Core/Heart/Soul of Flame do need a major rework since their point seems to be removing any sustain issues, which DK is supposed to mitigate from Ultimates. I realize Kevin said only numerical changes are possible on PTS instead of doing a full rework that it needs (I’d go back to the ‘enemies hit’ based heal from the pre-rework Inhale), but for the time being the Stam/Mag recovered needs to be fully kneecapped to like 1%.

Corrosive giving a lot of mitigation and ignoring armor and having an AoE are overloaded. I could see the mit being taken down significantly as a reasonable start - as is, a Corrosive DK can’t be burst down and needs to be taken down by loads of smaller hits, but they’re doing damage around them for free.
Ironically, the other morph of Magma needs a bit of a buff, since it’s so much worse than Corrosive. Magma Shell locking players out of ultigen for an extra 5 seconds in exchange for a worse barrier on the team is not a good tradeoff, making Magma Shell still more of a selfish ult than a group support.

I agree that no one attack should hit as hard as an ultimate. We already has that problem when people could queue two or three NB Bowprocs in a row, and now lucky DKs can smash five whip splashes consecutively. These should be toned down.

Even playing DK, I am not a fan of them being hugely OP like this. Granted, I’m bad at PvP so even with all of that I’m not winning any fights, but if historical precedent is any indication, something this OP will get the entire Class slammed with a nerfhammer in a patch or two, and that will then affect PvE (and mostly by neutering things that are not problems). This is an example of a case where there are clear issues with certain skills, and adjustments to those skills need to be done to avoid overnerfing in the future.

MSattrtand · 11:05AM

Strife/Funnel Health damage/cost change should be reverted because it serves no purpose.

From a PvE standpoint:

As a NB healer, I'm running Funnel Health to proc Share the Spoils, since it's the least useless skill that can proc the Mastery, since it's poorly designed. I don't care about the damage buff - dealing damage is not my goal. I don't care that it heals for more - 90%+ of the healing is overhealing anyway. But I care that now it costs like a truck. In this case, it's just a nerf.

As an NB DD, I don't really wanna run either morph if I'm optimising my damage, since Concealed Weapon is stronger anyway. If I need some self-healing from my spammable, like for dungeons without a healer, I would happily use Swallow Soul. I don't wanna run Funnel Health for no reason - healing allies is not my job, and now it costs much more, so I won't even attempt to use it.

As an NB off-healer, I can run Funnel Health as a spammable since I'm parse-healing (=my team decided it needs more healing but not that much to use a proper healer), like in 1T 3DD dungeons or on bosses in trials that can be solo-healed. In this case, if I'm actually using Funnel Health, I don't care much about its damage; the healing part is more important. More damage is nice, but not at the cost of tanking my sustain for 8% more healing. Again, it's just a nerf.

I'm not knowledgeable enough about PvP, but I know that NB's sustain is not completely free, so again, NB won't run Funnel Health just to heal allies, since it's so expensive.

I can't imagine a reasonable case where this proposed change would actually benefit anyone.

buttaface · 11:37AM

The stamina changes on WW are fine IMO. As long as they leave Hircine's Bounty the insta stam tank that it is, just use it. Use it more effectively as a magicka based WW, but use it. The skills are too cheap now and there will be nerfs versus WW damage otherwise. SO higher cost and same damage? That's a good change.

Otherwise, there will be nerfs against class and subclass passives, as in BAN them in WW, and WW damage. So which poison do you like? I think saying goodbye to the "free werewolf" is a good change. The stam numbers seem balanced to other class skills.

There is a one button tank for stamina, Hircine's Bounty, that is very strong that most classes don't have. It's like having dark magic but without the delay of dark magic. Heals you and gives huge chunks of stamina. I don't see the problem with having higher resource balance skills... just like every other class in the game.

SonOfAsura · 11:44AM

Dragonknight Class Mastery – Wildfire Embers Rework Suggestion

Dragonknight is currently in a weak position in PvE compared to other classes. Necromancer and Nightblade are extremely strong options for PvE content, while Dragonknight has lost much of its value and is rarely chosen compared to them.

One of Dragonknight’s main identities has always been Damage over Time effects and Flame Damage. However, the current Wildfire Embers mechanic does not properly support this playstyle. Requiring 12 stacks takes too long, and in many PvE encounters the effect reaches its full potential too late or the fight ends before it becomes meaningful.

Instead of rewarding an active DoT-based playstyle, the current version forces players to wait for the effect to build up.

Suggested Wildfire Embers Rework:

- Whenever you apply a Dragonknight Damage over Time effect or Burning to an enemy, you apply Wildfire Embers.
- Wildfire Embers lasts for 10 seconds.
- The effect stacks up to 5 times against monsters.
- Each stack increases Wildfire Embers damage by 20%.
- Against monsters, Wildfire Embers deals 300% increased damage.
- Against players, Wildfire Embers can only stack up to 3 times and deals 50% reduced damage.

The goal of this change is not to make Dragonknight overpowered, but to bring back its class identity. Dragonknight should feel like a class that spreads flames and maintains constant pressure through its Damage over Time effects. The problem with the current version is not the idea of building power, but that it takes too long to become effective and often fails to provide meaningful value during real PvE encounters.

With this change, Wildfire Embers would reward proper DoT management instead of waiting for stacks to slowly build. It would give Dragonknight a stronger PvE presence while keeping the mechanic balanced in PvP.

Wuuffyy · 11:44AM

buttaface wrote: »

The stamina changes on WW are fine IMO. As long as they leave Hircine's Bounty the insta stam tank that it is, just use it. Use it more effectively as a magicka based WW, but use it. The skills are too cheap now and there will be nerfs versus WW damage otherwise. SO higher cost and same damage? That's a good change.

Otherwise, there will be nerfs against class and subclass passives, as in BAN them in WW, and WW damage. So which poison do you like? I think saying goodbye to the "free werewolf" is a good change. The stam numbers seem balanced to other class skills.

There is a one button tank for stamina, Hircine's Bounty, that is very strong that most classes don't have. It's like having dark magic but without the delay of dark magic. Heals you and gives huge chunks of stamina. I don't see the problem with having higher resource balance skills... just like every other class in the game.

No, it feels like garbage. We lost damage rolling into the rework patch too, damage we didn’t regain despite losing consistent pressure in a ‘pressure playstyle’.

We can no longer hold a candle to sorc or DK mathematically, and while I understand that this has been the case for non-reworked classes this entire time- it’s tragic for a reworked class especially when DK and Sorc remain at the level they do squeaking out more buffs imo than nerfs this patch alone.

Its sustain is now being hard carried by conservation of energy (and ergo solved very little as most will now hop on sorc). At this point, just remove the masteries in PvP, reduce the costs, and let werewolf be a high-sustain meme spec (but significantly less without CoE) while they figure out what/if they intend to do literally anything with CoF and CoE.

Also, remove some bite healing and place it into the healing howl
(on-demand heal). My heal with 40k health is 8k and costs 4500 mag, that’s absurd given that it was roughly 30%-40% more before the rework patch alone.

Tendo163 · 11:51AM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class changes coming in Update 51. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

For context regarding timeline for changes, stats or number changes for skills are changes we can make within the PTS cycle. If the changes or suggestions require more technical changes, we will take those to the combat team and update timelines based on what the team is able to do.

The problem is 3 fold;

Power lash and volcanic whip are the strongest direct damage non channeled abilities in the game. Without spec’ing into damage, these whips are still pushing close to 10k on a critical strike.

With the whips in mind, you then have corrosive which reduces your incoming damage notably and gives you unlimited pen, this leads to massive indefensible damage that is essentially unavoidable and still does massive damage through block.

Heart of flame then comes in. This brings infinite sustain, which not only makes you immune to getting caught up in CC and immobilization, but also nullifies the opportunity cost of bad sustain when spec’ing into damage - that damage that then leads to massive whip numbers, numbers irreplicable by any other class in the game.

Dk Proc whips need to be dialed back a minimum of 30%+. I can settle for a glass cannon dk build hitting a 14k whip 5 times, but for the average dk to hit me and anyone in aoe with a 16k - 22k whip in every match is just ridiculous. I cannot hit someone with a dawnbreaker on a glass cannon build and do that much damage and its an ultimate.

If your idea of balance is making non ultimate abilities this strong for every class, and eliminating sustain from the equation, im not going to lie, I will simply just start playing a different game.

I play DK and I fully agree with the above. DK as is is astronomically overpowered compared to everything else for these reasons.

Core/Heart/Soul of Flame do need a major rework since their point seems to be removing any sustain issues, which DK is supposed to mitigate from Ultimates. I realize Kevin said only numerical changes are possible on PTS instead of doing a full rework that it needs (I’d go back to the ‘enemies hit’ based heal from the pre-rework Inhale), but for the time being the Stam/Mag recovered needs to be fully kneecapped to like 1%.

Corrosive giving a lot of mitigation and ignoring armor and having an AoE are overloaded. I could see the mit being taken down significantly as a reasonable start - as is, a Corrosive DK can’t be burst down and needs to be taken down by loads of smaller hits, but they’re doing damage around them for free.
Ironically, the other morph of Magma needs a bit of a buff, since it’s so much worse than Corrosive. Magma Shell locking players out of ultigen for an extra 5 seconds in exchange for a worse barrier on the team is not a good tradeoff, making Magma Shell still more of a selfish ult than a group support.

I agree that no one attack should hit as hard as an ultimate. We already has that problem when people could queue two or three NB Bowprocs in a row, and now lucky DKs can smash five whip splashes consecutively. These should be toned down.

Even playing DK, I am not a fan of them being hugely OP like this. Granted, I’m bad at PvP so even with all of that I’m not winning any fights, but if historical precedent is any indication, something this OP will get the entire Class slammed with a nerfhammer in a patch or two, and that will then affect PvE (and mostly by neutering things that are not problems). This is an example of a case where there are clear issues with certain skills, and adjustments to those skills need to be done to avoid overnerfing in the future.

Really, I am in favor of a power creep, but exclusively for ultimates. It just feels unplayable right now. Most my builds im pushing 40k armor, and for all of that to simply be a complete sunken cost against a sorc with little to no penetration and giga high damage, or a DK corrosive whipping, just makes it seem like theres no hope for anyone not playing one of those 2 classes.

I think conclusivity in fights is good, and so I would be in favor of ultimates doing 30% -
50% more damage, but for a dk to be cranking out 5 whips at 10k plus per, while, or after perma blocking (sustainably) is bizarre. If you drag and drop that level of functionality and output into literally any class, it would make it powerful, and thats only 1 part of the whole issue. Imagine arcanist gets 5 full proc tentacles, NB gets 5 proc bows, sorc gets 5 proc frags, so on so forth. Its too much damage, too easy to proc, and theres too many casts. The heal was honestly the least of my worries. Its all overloaded and honestly im starting to become cynical due to how long it has taken them to address it. It is simple - play the game, go and experience the game as a non DK or sorc, it will become painfully obvious what the issues are almost immediately.

AdonisJorge · 11:59AM

Wuuffyy wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

The stamina changes on WW are fine IMO. As long as they leave Hircine's Bounty the insta stam tank that it is, just use it. Use it more effectively as a magicka based WW, but use it. The skills are too cheap now and there will be nerfs versus WW damage otherwise. SO higher cost and same damage? That's a good change.

Otherwise, there will be nerfs against class and subclass passives, as in BAN them in WW, and WW damage. So which poison do you like? I think saying goodbye to the "free werewolf" is a good change. The stam numbers seem balanced to other class skills.

There is a one button tank for stamina, Hircine's Bounty, that is very strong that most classes don't have. It's like having dark magic but without the delay of dark magic. Heals you and gives huge chunks of stamina. I don't see the problem with having higher resource balance skills... just like every other class in the game.

No, it feels like garbage. We lost damage rolling into the rework patch too, damage we didn’t regain despite losing consistent pressure in a ‘pressure playstyle’.

We can no longer hold a candle to sorc or DK mathematically, and while I understand that this has been the case for non-reworked classes this entire time- it’s tragic for a reworked class especially when DK and Sorc remain at the level they do squeaking out more buffs imo than nerfs this patch alone.

Its sustain is now being hard carried by conservation of energy (and ergo solved very little as most will now hop on sorc). At this point, just remove masteries in PvP, reduce the costs, and let werewolf be a high-sustain meme spec (but significantly less without CoE) while they figure out what/if they intend to do literally anything with CoF and CoE.

Also, remove some bite healing and place it into the healing howl
(on-demand heal). My heal with 40k health is 8k and costs 4500 mag, that’s absurd given that it was roughly 30%-40% more before the rework patch alone.

Remove class masteries and let WW have other passives or get to use weapons passives, and please buff all other classes to DK level, Decimus, a PVP ESO streamer have the same opinion that is just more healthy to the game buffing all the others so it is less work to do and a lot more fun

LordDragonSlayer · 12:08PM

I just saw the WW resource usage increases and this is beyond ridiculous. WW do not need a nerf and you cannot nerf classes to make bad players good. Have you thought about the implications to pve or are you doing this solely based on pvp feedback?

With these increases, WW will be a dead class because they do not really get armor boosts, they already lose their human skills, and now they will have to make sure they have mag, mag recovery, stam, and stam recovery, while trying to maintain a high enough health because of their lower armor.

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

Are you going to modify one of the skills that gives them mega armor and crit resist or give them immunity to CCs?

I am not the best player in the game but my WW in pvp gets owned by just about every class sometimes but it depends on the player. You cannot nerf something just because people do not know how to pvp and play their class. So many people go into BGs or Cyrodiil or Imperial City with pve gear or with low health and expect to own okay to great pvp people. Then you have those players that never use a heal. I have watched players lose their health and never heal and die but yet complain.

ZOS please for once actually play the game and get out of the spreadsheet. I feel like these decisions are made without actually playing the game and understanding what is actually going on.

Wuuffyy · 12:10PM

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

The stamina changes on WW are fine IMO. As long as they leave Hircine's Bounty the insta stam tank that it is, just use it. Use it more effectively as a magicka based WW, but use it. The skills are too cheap now and there will be nerfs versus WW damage otherwise. SO higher cost and same damage? That's a good change.

Otherwise, there will be nerfs against class and subclass passives, as in BAN them in WW, and WW damage. So which poison do you like? I think saying goodbye to the "free werewolf" is a good change. The stam numbers seem balanced to other class skills.

There is a one button tank for stamina, Hircine's Bounty, that is very strong that most classes don't have. It's like having dark magic but without the delay of dark magic. Heals you and gives huge chunks of stamina. I don't see the problem with having higher resource balance skills... just like every other class in the game.

No, it feels like garbage. We lost damage rolling into the rework patch too, damage we didn’t regain despite losing consistent pressure in a ‘pressure playstyle’.

We can no longer hold a candle to sorc or DK mathematically, and while I understand that this has been the case for non-reworked classes this entire time- it’s tragic for a reworked class especially when DK and Sorc remain at the level they do squeaking out more buffs imo than nerfs this patch alone.

Its sustain is now being hard carried by conservation of energy (and ergo solved very little as most will now hop on sorc). At this point, just remove masteries in PvP, reduce the costs, and let werewolf be a high-sustain meme spec (but significantly less without CoE) while they figure out what/if they intend to do literally anything with CoF and CoE.

Also, remove some bite healing and place it into the healing howl
(on-demand heal). My heal with 40k health is 8k and costs 4500 mag, that’s absurd given that it was roughly 30%-40% more before the rework patch alone.

Remove class masteries and let WW have other passives or get to use weapons passives, and please buff all other classes to DK level, Decimus, a PVP ESO streamer have the same opinion that is just more healthy to the game buffing all the others so it is less work to do and a lot more fun

I had this opinion but if they’ve decided that must start ripping and tearing then it has to be universal and ergo logical.

Unrelated, but another quick reminder that providing DK and sorc absolutely no sustain nerfs while providing werewolf a page of nerfs under the same bracket, via week 1, is not being conservative the way they think it is:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692644/addressing-u50-pts-combat-ability-concerns/p1

*Also, props to them being told by many what ‘makes werewolf feel worse’ while supplying that same page of nerfs with absolutely 0 meaningful QoL.

AdonisJorge · 12:13PM

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

The stamina changes on WW are fine IMO. As long as they leave Hircine's Bounty the insta stam tank that it is, just use it. Use it more effectively as a magicka based WW, but use it. The skills are too cheap now and there will be nerfs versus WW damage otherwise. SO higher cost and same damage? That's a good change.

Otherwise, there will be nerfs against class and subclass passives, as in BAN them in WW, and WW damage. So which poison do you like? I think saying goodbye to the "free werewolf" is a good change. The stam numbers seem balanced to other class skills.

There is a one button tank for stamina, Hircine's Bounty, that is very strong that most classes don't have. It's like having dark magic but without the delay of dark magic. Heals you and gives huge chunks of stamina. I don't see the problem with having higher resource balance skills... just like every other class in the game.

No, it feels like garbage. We lost damage rolling into the rework patch too, damage we didn’t regain despite losing consistent pressure in a ‘pressure playstyle’.

We can no longer hold a candle to sorc or DK mathematically, and while I understand that this has been the case for non-reworked classes this entire time- it’s tragic for a reworked class especially when DK and Sorc remain at the level they do squeaking out more buffs imo than nerfs this patch alone.

Its sustain is now being hard carried by conservation of energy (and ergo solved very little as most will now hop on sorc). At this point, just remove masteries in PvP, reduce the costs, and let werewolf be a high-sustain meme spec (but significantly less without CoE) while they figure out what/if they intend to do literally anything with CoF and CoE.

Also, remove some bite healing and place it into the healing howl
(on-demand heal). My heal with 40k health is 8k and costs 4500 mag, that’s absurd given that it was roughly 30%-40% more before the rework patch alone.

Remove class masteries and let WW have other passives or get to use weapons passives, and please buff all other classes to DK level, Decimus, a PVP ESO streamer have the same opinion that is just more healthy to the game buffing all the others so it is less work to do and a lot more fun

Unrelated, but another quick reminder that providing DK and sorc absolutely no sustain nerfs while providing werewolf a page of nerfs under the same bracket, via week 1, is not being conservative the way they think it is:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692644/addressing-u50-pts-combat-ability-concerns/p1

You are absolutely right, i am testing WW on PTS a lot, sorcerer can still be a good ww but other classes are dead or will need a crazy subclass combination, using Shapshifter chain or Oaksensoul will be almost mandatory. At least ZOS need to buff that mythic to WW or the new monster sets for WW

Wuuffyy · 12:16PM

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

buttaface wrote: »

The stamina changes on WW are fine IMO. As long as they leave Hircine's Bounty the insta stam tank that it is, just use it. Use it more effectively as a magicka based WW, but use it. The skills are too cheap now and there will be nerfs versus WW damage otherwise. SO higher cost and same damage? That's a good change.

Otherwise, there will be nerfs against class and subclass passives, as in BAN them in WW, and WW damage. So which poison do you like? I think saying goodbye to the "free werewolf" is a good change. The stam numbers seem balanced to other class skills.

There is a one button tank for stamina, Hircine's Bounty, that is very strong that most classes don't have. It's like having dark magic but without the delay of dark magic. Heals you and gives huge chunks of stamina. I don't see the problem with having higher resource balance skills... just like every other class in the game.

No, it feels like garbage. We lost damage rolling into the rework patch too, damage we didn’t regain despite losing consistent pressure in a ‘pressure playstyle’.

We can no longer hold a candle to sorc or DK mathematically, and while I understand that this has been the case for non-reworked classes this entire time- it’s tragic for a reworked class especially when DK and Sorc remain at the level they do squeaking out more buffs imo than nerfs this patch alone.

Its sustain is now being hard carried by conservation of energy (and ergo solved very little as most will now hop on sorc). At this point, just remove masteries in PvP, reduce the costs, and let werewolf be a high-sustain meme spec (but significantly less without CoE) while they figure out what/if they intend to do literally anything with CoF and CoE.

Also, remove some bite healing and place it into the healing howl
(on-demand heal). My heal with 40k health is 8k and costs 4500 mag, that’s absurd given that it was roughly 30%-40% more before the rework patch alone.

Remove class masteries and let WW have other passives or get to use weapons passives, and please buff all other classes to DK level, Decimus, a PVP ESO streamer have the same opinion that is just more healthy to the game buffing all the others so it is less work to do and a lot more fun

Unrelated, but another quick reminder that providing DK and sorc absolutely no sustain nerfs while providing werewolf a page of nerfs under the same bracket, via week 1, is not being conservative the way they think it is:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/692644/addressing-u50-pts-combat-ability-concerns/p1

You are absolutely right, i am testing WW on PTS a lot, sorcerer can still be a good ww but other classes are dead or will need a crazy subclass combination, using Shapshifter chain or Oaksensoul will be almost mandatory. At least ZOS need to buff that mythic to WW or the new monster sets for WW

Yep, which means no more bash weaving for damage (lost skill and subsequently lost apm) and yet another damage loss from mythic. But hey, at least they never considered actually touching sorc for werewolf anywhere in their thought process for nerfing werewolf sustain.

Red99 · 12:28PM

Since the wolf is going to get all these nerfs it's about time he gets the minor resolve since it's a minor buff that everyone easily gets

Luneca · 1:00PM

LordDragonSlayer wrote: »

Most WWs have about 15 to 18k mag and stamina and about 40 to 44k health. With these new numbers they will be out of resources in seconds. They do not have burst damage

I think that' the point and what ZOS was going for. If you choose to build with that little bit of resource pools, you'll now suffer the consequences like everyone else that does. 15k to 18k mag and stamina and that much of a lopsided build would be bad anywhere in the game, esp. in a PvP environment except on certain "special" builds.

That it wasn't before actually proves that the costs were too low in the first place regardless of what you or the others that enjoyed paying next to nothing for skills without any investment want to claim.

That's why they did it. Because putting the requirement to either build sustain or get good enough not to have to do it will put a limit and cap on the defensive or offensive power that's possible with your build. Which is the cap that everyone except DK abides by (though even DK needs to build into resource pools, though again, there's other builds possible that can bypass it).

The probability of you convincing them is likely 0. Skill costs should have never been that low in the first place. Literally proving that sustain was previously far too easy and ignorable with that comment, not that anyone here didn't know so already.

Jabbs_Giggity · 1:04PM

Extremely disappointed that Templar is not even mentioned, other than nerf to losing sorcery buff. However, the unique armor buff would allow Templars to go more into offensive stats IF:
1. Templar needs to finally have Jabs/Sweeps get a unique buff to not be affected by evasion. Also, brutality needs to be increased to 20 seconds to be in-line with other sources, or move to a utility skill to cast out of combat without being tied to a channel skill.
2. Aetheric Lancer needs a rework on the RNG chase the circle design. The proc should apply automatically when reaching requirements within a radius of the wearer.

Just these two things alone would at least give Templar SOME viability until later improvements can be made.

Regarding the DK, less healing is not the issue. Where have these devs been getting their feedback from?! The issue is the power lash stacks being AOE and the huge damage increase.
In PVP, the meta is Corrosive/leasing burst/power lash. This is EASILY hitting for 15-27k PER LASH, coupled with VD and the lash aoe component.
Also, where is the pass on Corrosive dot ONLY APPLYING TO MONSTERS??
PVP is showing in 90+% with over 10k Corrosive DoT damage.

Jabbs_Giggity · 1:11PM

Also want to point out, may be wrong thread..., but with the changes to battle spirit via shield stacking (awesome by the way), this needs to apply to proc sets. Give proc sets the same condition as RC where the more in your group the less effective they are.
Sets like vicious death are meant for solo/small-scale users to take out tough groups, not the other way around.
These sets being used by full groups and properly comped Ball Groups is what is killing PVP population.

Dizzy_Dragon · 1:17PM

Tendo163 wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class changes coming in Update 51. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

For context regarding timeline for changes, stats or number changes for skills are changes we can make within the PTS cycle. If the changes or suggestions require more technical changes, we will take those to the combat team and update timelines based on what the team is able to do.

The problem is 3 fold;

Power lash and volcanic whip are the strongest direct damage non channeled abilities in the game. Without spec’ing into damage, these whips are still pushing close to 10k on a critical strike.

With the whips in mind, you then have corrosive which reduces your incoming damage notably and gives you unlimited pen, this leads to massive indefensible damage that is essentially unavoidable and still does massive damage through block.

Heart of flame then comes in. This brings infinite sustain, which not only makes you immune to getting caught up in CC and immobilization, but also nullifies the opportunity cost of bad sustain when spec’ing into damage - that damage that then leads to massive whip numbers, numbers irreplicable by any other class in the game.

Dk Proc whips need to be dialed back a minimum of 30%+. I can settle for a glass cannon dk build hitting a 14k whip 5 times, but for the average dk to hit me and anyone in aoe with a 16k - 22k whip in every match is just ridiculous. I cannot hit someone with a dawnbreaker on a glass cannon build and do that much damage and its an ultimate.

If your idea of balance is making non ultimate abilities this strong for every class, and eliminating sustain from the equation, im not going to lie, I will simply just start playing a different game.

I completely agree with this (from a PvP perspective). I’ve got 6000+ hours in the game and DK just broke every combat metric I’ve previously encountered. And this is coming from a DK main up until U49 launched.

Thousands of players started out with a good whopping when they first encountered ESO PvP and the incentives to improve, that typically rose from this, were awesome! Many of the survivors became some of the best advocates to champion the game forward. But this was a SKILL driven movement.
I now see a lot of ego-driven players thriving on DK’s, as they now kill some of the best players out there and subsequently feed into a toxic environment. Wrong direction! I admire the highly skilled PvP’ers out there – they are inspirational and make me want to do better. And they do not hold block and spam Heart of Flame… They learned to sustain the hard way, and sneaking in a successful heavy attack mid-fight is actually quite fulfilling and much more rewarding than being carried by overpowered imbalance, IMO.
One could argue that the other classes just haven’t received their class refreshes yet – but that just speaks into an unhealthy power-creep future where dev’s are subsequently forced to polish out chunky imbalances for years to come.

Less is more.

There is a reason why most ESO PvP veterans cherish fond memories from the 2017-18 era, where balance changes were incremental, with healthy respect for the MANY synergistic impacts even the smallest of changes could induce across the board. Over the past 4-5 years it’s been oscillating out of control – and layering quick fixes on top is no longer an option. Albeit, introducing Class Masteries to quench Subclassing imbalance oscillations, was a stroke of genius and the best approach I’ve seen to dampen out the resonance build-up to date. Many congrats on that achievement.

I for one do not need sensational change announcements to sustain my desire to feed time and money into ESO – I just need a well balanced ESO that slowly evolves with white-knuckle control.
You have the pillars of the best MMO brand, lore and combat system in the business already – just tweak instead of risking it all with fireworks and neon lights. Dial back DK and WW and proceed slowly with focus on the Battle Spirit dashboard as the big gate between PvE and PvP balancing. I already sense happier customers and a stronger EBITDA at the same time

Zallion · 1:33PM

Hexys wrote: »

DK Wings can't give 50% projectile mitigation flat for 6 seconds.
- Make it like ball of lightning to mitigate 100% on 1 projectile, or just keep it 6 seconds and change it to 10-15% mitigation. DK's are unkillable for any ranged build.

Also regarding PvP balance, diversity is broken, anything melee is overshadowed by DK, it makes the game so boring because any theorycrafting for other classes is just 'meh'.
- Keep DK class masteries to 2/5 and change any other class to allow for 3 or 4 class masteries
- Disable class masteries in ww form

Easy and simple

Honestly a solid solution proposed, aside from sorc masteries being too problematic, they would need to be reworked for that to work out. Otherwise dk and sorc just leagues ahead of everything still. Enabling a 3rd mastery for non reworked classes would definitely bring things up.

Chrlynsch · 2:02PM

Changes to Insatiable Hunger is no good. Basically a death sentence for the already lacking berserker as they already have form sustaining issues on live. Don't take away the top off snackies.

Prionyx · 2:48PM

Where are the class mastery changes you promised?

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Why are we targeting stealth and Nightblade invisibility even more? Its already buggy to stay invis or to engage in it and now you are restricting it more? Rally's heal should not pull NB out of stealth, its been this way for 12 years, and it will be less fun for everyone if it pulls you out of stealth. Expert hunter being turned into a on demand stealth detect is just such a horrible change that kills my desire to spend money on this game. I am tired of all these changes to NB and its stealth and all its counters on top of the bugs and terrible interactions with it. With every single patch I feel like Nightblade is targeted more and more for no reason other than prejudice.

I genuinely feel like you zos have prejudice against the entire idea of Nightblade along with all the DK mains and hybrid tanks who don't want to die no matter what.

When will we NBs be getting an ability to turn off Dks ability to block for 5 seconds? or to turn off sorc's streak for 5 seconds? or to revert WW into human form? Thats what you are doing with NB!

Nightblade got more patch notes that amounted to more nerfs than a buff due to how you changed sneak/cloak/expert hunter/Rally meanwhile DK, the refreshed most OP and complained about class that everyone hates that now makes up probably 60% of PVP got meaningless tweaks.

Nightblade got more patch notes than DK and they were mostly nerfs

I mean seriously? We are making Expert hunter a stealth detect potion now on demand that turns off Nightblades most iconic ability 43.5 meters out and then prevents it from being used?? You've already nerfed cloak when you made mag recov turn off in cloak, and now you are gonna give everyone a ability to spam that reveals us 43.5 meters out????? So now it will be even harder to stam check them for countering us. I guess all Nightblades should just play DK huh?

Why haven't you focused on QoL changes like making Dark Vigor and magicka flood passives buff your max hp and stam/mag while an ability is slotted on EITHER bar? I lose 3k HP for swapping bars!!! Everyone would love that!

If these changes go through I am done with ESO and not supporting it anymore. I don't even think you have anyone to read this feedback anymore and I'm just astounded that you make NB worse and worse and clunkier to play every single patch while not fixing the real pain points and that you eternally make counters to NB and no other class gets this treatment. I get pulse ganking is what you may be targeting, but DK and WW were by far and away bigger pain points for the community then pulse gankers on subclassed builds which is not even an arguement because all these stealth changes to fix Pulse gankers doesn't even address the core issue! Pulse gankers will still be there!

Once again Pure NB is nerfed for existing.

Your changes have raised my BP and I just don't want to play anymore. Please, SCRAP THIS

They don't care about balance they just want NB to suffer, there is no denying it. They nerfed laughable 7% crit damage everyone were saying is weak as hell to 5%. They just want us to suffer. There is no other answer