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Is this what this has come down to?
cypherclone_ESO
Soul Shriven
Bots everywhere was one thing now they walk through the ground and fly? Harder to target when they do this. Found the following in Deshaan.....
http://imgur.com/Nv1cEfU
http://imgur.com/Nv1cEfU
2
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Reignskream✭✭✭✭Yeah they're everywhere. We know, ZOS knows, Bethesda knows, Blizzard knows.
WE KNOW!! report them in game, thats the best we that we have at this point in time, and if you can't report them, submit feedback/a bug to fill them in on what is going on.
I did that once and about 20minutes later a GM was in murdering bots with the I win button.Edited by Reignskream on May 19, 2014 4:30PM0 -
Hodorius✭✭✭So it´s like in WoW now?
...or in EVERY other MMO.
I really do not understand the purpose of all these threads... this problem exists in every MMO.
3 -
Mjoel✭✭The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix0 -
Reignskream✭✭✭✭balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!0 -
Most MMos controls the bots to a certain point where it don't affect players gameplay. As for gold selling spams, yes you will always get those and spams don't bother most players. Its the bots that constantly harvest nodes and killing mobs bosses to the point where players can't kill required boss mobs for quest or for loot themselves which affects games play is what most players are mad about.
I played MMos for years myself and I didn't see bots this bad in other games. Yes I seen them in other games so don't quote me or try to correct me on that.
I myself is mad about bots ruining game play not the spamming which I am use to from other games.
Bots would be around bosses in dungeon in this game making it hard for a player to get a hit cause bots kill mob to fast for us players to get a hit so we can get credit for quest completion. One dungeon it took me 15 times to get 1 hit and I was there for a long time to get credit. This is what most players are mad about.
I myself am ready to cancel my subscription and maybe I come back later when problem is fixed.5 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭Reignskream wrote: »balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!
Bots and hacks are two different matters.
Bots might be imposible to get rid of 100%. Speedhacks, flyhacks, nocliphacks, teleporthacks, thats a shame for a 2014 AAA mmorpg.2 -
Reignskream✭✭✭✭Reignskream wrote: »balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!
Bots and hacks are two different matters.
Bots might be imposible to get rid of 100%. Speedhacks, flyhacks, nocliphacks, teleporthacks, thats a shame for a 2014 AAA mmorpg.
New company, new problems, old problems, repeatable problems.
They may learn how to combat it someday, but it probably wont be without a price as people are complaining allot about it.
to me it doesnt hinder me much at all, i just report em and move along.1 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭Reignskream wrote: »Reignskream wrote: »balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!
Bots and hacks are two different matters.
Bots might be imposible to get rid of 100%. Speedhacks, flyhacks, nocliphacks, teleporthacks, thats a shame for a 2014 AAA mmorpg.
New company, new problems, old problems, repeatable problems.
They may learn how to combat it someday, but it probably wont be without a price as people are complaining allot about it.
to me it doesnt hinder me much at all, i just report em and move along.
Speedhacks, teleporthacks, flyhacks and such are the same for everymmorpg the last 12 years. Memory injection.
As of 2014, the use of speed-tp-flyhacks is an instant ban in 99% of them at release. It has been so since 10 years ago it staryed being a nuissance for mmorpg companies.0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Except it's ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE worse in this game than any other has ever been in the 7 MMOs I've played since '03.So it´s like in WoW now?
...or in EVERY other MMO.
I really do not understand the purpose of all these threads... this problem exists in every MMO.
Edited by KerinKor on May 19, 2014 6:47PM1 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The open API of the ESO client sadly allows loads of hacks. This has been known long before, I am not sure if they can just easily fix that without totally disabling any type of third party mechanism.
WoW has the exact same problem, that's why I was so worried when I heard that they would allow it at ESO too.
People have been flying through Warsong long before ESO was even mentioned, so yes its not an ESO related issue - every MMO with an open API has these issue´s, even Ultima Online.1 -
Fairydragon3✭✭✭✭Reignskream wrote: »Reignskream wrote: »balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!
Bots and hacks are two different matters.
Bots might be imposible to get rid of 100%. Speedhacks, flyhacks, nocliphacks, teleporthacks, thats a shame for a 2014 AAA mmorpg.
New company, new problems, old problems, repeatable problems.
They may learn how to combat it someday, but it probably wont be without a price as people are complaining allot about it.
to me it doesnt hinder me much at all, i just report em and move along.
Speedhacks, teleporthacks, flyhacks and such are the same for everymmorpg the last 12 years. Memory injection.
As of 2014, the use of speed-tp-flyhacks is an instant ban in 99% of them at release. It has been so since 10 years ago it staryed being a nuissance for mmorpg companies.
you forgot about the part that it's a new company to MMO's. Safe to assume that the other companies wont help their competition get to where they are in knowledge1 -
Reignskream✭✭✭✭Reignskream wrote: »Reignskream wrote: »balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!
Bots and hacks are two different matters.
Bots might be imposible to get rid of 100%. Speedhacks, flyhacks, nocliphacks, teleporthacks, thats a shame for a 2014 AAA mmorpg.
New company, new problems, old problems, repeatable problems.
They may learn how to combat it someday, but it probably wont be without a price as people are complaining allot about it.
to me it doesnt hinder me much at all, i just report em and move along.
Speedhacks, teleporthacks, flyhacks and such are the same for everymmorpg the last 12 years. Memory injection.
As of 2014, the use of speed-tp-flyhacks is an instant ban in 99% of them at release. It has been so since 10 years ago it staryed being a nuissance for mmorpg companies.
But it's a new company, (ZOS). We have no idea of the infrastructure they have going as far as work ability and knowledge. Old problems arise all the time, especially at launches of new MMO's, its almost a given. & also with a new company.
& thanks for the memory injection, but that is things I already knew, as i've been gaming for many years.
Edited by Reignskream on May 19, 2014 7:26PM0 -
DrywFiltiarn✭✭✭Speedhacks, teleporthacks, flyhacks and such are the same for everymmorpg the last 12 years. Memory injection.
And yet most of them are so easily preventable.
Speedhacks, you know how fast a player can move and which buffs possibly allow faster movement and such, do a delta check on movement over time and you can easily detect serverside, something is off with a players movement (and thus a hack is going on). This detection is impossible to manipulate for the client. Obviously it will require a bit of logic to prevent wayshrine teleports and such from becoming false positives, but you know if someone used a teleport or not, so you can ignore an unexpected value on a delta on that.
Movement on a client will continually be send back to the server (as the server will need to provide that information back to other clients and such), so it's in theory very easy to detect speedhacks and reset players position and then kick them from server.
Teleporthacks, same as above, as far as I know the teleports are beyond regular portal/wayshrine teleporting and thus detectable as invalid movement, as movement speed X over time T calculates to an out of range value for regular (valid) play. Yes you can manipulate the client to allow for this through whatever hack you want, yet the client will report the movement data back to the server, where botters have no control over and thus can be checked.
Flyhacks, basicly it's not a fly-hack, but rather a no-clip hack, which allows players not to just move through the air, but also through the ground and through walls and such. This also is detectable in a lot of cases, but in some cases can't be detected. Movement through walls is hard to detect serverside, although this will depend on what movement data is send back to the server and how often. If the updates back to server are often enough and include information of usage of doors and such (if any present), you could in theory detect if a player moved out of a building using the door or went through a wall. problem is there's many buildings without a door, so this can't be consistently detected.
A lot of no-clipping can be detected though, simply by checking if the XYZ coordinates a client communicates back to the server match up with the map. If those values are off (especially on the Z axis, which controls height) this may/will mean the player is either flying through the air or under ground. This can be hard to manage properly, because this will require some overhead room for areas where you can jump off cliffs for instance, which may temporarily give you invalid XYZ readings if you strictly follow the terrain, although this can be solved by applying a grace-time for instance, where you will allow a player to be for a period of T seconds out of valid coordinates, before intervention takes place. This will prevent players that jump off mountains for instance to be falsely detected, but will catch bots that are underground for a long while harvesting nodes.
Anyway, the story above is a long one, but based upon personal experience of client-server solutions, as I'm a software developer myself. From what I see, going on with the memory-hacks that allow things like no-clipping, this is a failure at server-side to properly sanitize and check data received from clients and detect and flag suspicious behavior. A lot of the things bots are currently doing can be solved with proper server-side validation of received data and kicking the user off the server in case of irregularities. My assumption is that the game is currently relying too much on the client sending back valid information to the server, while there are too many factors that can influence this data and manipulate it. Not just memory-hacks are an option like currently is happening, but I think it's a matter of time before the next issue will arise, namely the manipulation of the network traffic to manipulate movement and possibly even other options that I don't even want to mention here (I don't want to give people ideas).
As a comparison, I've played WoW for a long time as well, and somewhere around a year ago, they too suffered a lot from (regular players, not bots) walking underground, due to errors in collision-detection, that would allow them to pop out of the map without falling infinitely. Blizzard has solved this by auto-kicking the player back to login screen, when they detected this on their servers. Ever since most of the players doing this (although it basicly was harmless as you couldn't do anything anyway underground as you could only do it in cities) stopped doing this as you will have a hard time getting back in, because you will respawn underground again after login and thus be kicked again within 10 seconds or so. This means you will have to heartstone very quickly to prevent being auto-kicked again to move back into the map.
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DrywFiltiarn✭✭✭The open API of the ESO client sadly allows loads of hacks. This has been known long before, I am not sure if they can just easily fix that without totally disabling any type of third party mechanism.
The open API is such a minor part of the problem. As far as I can tell the biggest issues with the API are the ability to spam chat and such.
As far as it concerns scripted quest accepting/turn in and movement and such, even without API with a bit of effort you can easily use movement detection software (like used with security camera's and such) to capture the screen from the game and detect where to click, what keys to press (clicks and keypresses being software simulated obviously) to do everything you need to do. So is the API an issue, NO, it does make it easier for cheaters, but it won't prevent them doing what they do by not having an API.
0 -
Mefit✭✭✭As far as I can tell the " Nothing can be done so lets ignore it" crowd is alive and well in this game !
This is just the beginning , right now I can gather still for craft mats , most of the time you can get to atleast a few before the SUPERMAN BOTS speed in and take it all away .
How much longer before 2-4 Bots are so fast they cover the entire map , eventually 2-4 bots per map control every map ?
When the Bots gather all the items at speeds unreal for a player to keep up with even camping 1 item at a time ?
When Bots kill bosses and major mobs faster than a humans ability to react ?
This is not a fantasy in the ability of RMT Programmers , obviously every week that goes by they get better at what Bots can do in ESO , eventually you won't see them at all but their actions will be well noticeable in a desert game .
Will it be ok then to "CRY" about the issue then ?
This is without a doubt not going to ever end , but do nothing or saying nothing is not going to make anything better .
Complaining might be a waste of time but atleast it is showing that something is very wrong .
The game itself is fun and beautiful , sadly the bugs are being put on the back burner to the ever increasing Botter , Hacker , Exploiter crowd .
I am a crafter/gatherer , the crafting in this game is completely the easiest I ever came across in any MMO but I completely enjoy it and the only issue I have is the ever increasing battle to get one gatherable in a race against a bot that moves 100% faster than my character .
I am not spending my Gold to buy mats I should be able to get myself period.
So I do not care what the "DENIAL" Crowd says , there is a issue , maybe just not one they care about or maybe something they support .
And yes being able to add Addons has shown a increase in Hacks in games that allow it than those who don't . That's not a theory , its a fact . Not that these types of Hacks do not exist in other games that do not have addons , just less likely to happen when you do not have easier access to manipulate the game .
I do believe the GMs are working hard , but I believe the Devs are sitting on their hands because the biggest choice to curve this and slow it down would be the one to hurt Profits and income .
This is why I believe its no longer about making a game with integrity but a game that can make a quick dollar .
Games with integrity do not grab the masses like games that make the quick dollar but the games with Integrity get the most respect from the Hardcore .
The very truth of the matter is the weak players who buy Gold , use Bots , and other third party programs are far worse than any RMT , as they are the ones keeping RMT Profitable and just too lazy to play a Game on their own without all the help breaking a TOS can get you !Edited by Mefit on May 19, 2014 9:20PM4 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
I have been playing SWTOR for a year now and haven't seen a single bot. There is the occasional gold seller here and there, but that is it.So it´s like in WoW now?
...or in EVERY other MMO.
I really do not understand the purpose of all these threads... this problem exists in every MMO.
1 -
Akhratos✭✭✭✭Fairydragon3 wrote: »Reignskream wrote: »Reignskream wrote: »balmung127eb17_ESO wrote: »The worst thing is... players could use that in cyrodiil to simply fly into a castle and capture it...
Zenimax this needs a fast fix
There will never be a fast fix for bots, as they will find another way around it.
Don't you guys get it?
I quit WoW in january and they still had bots/gold sellers!
Bots and hacks are two different matters.
Bots might be imposible to get rid of 100%. Speedhacks, flyhacks, nocliphacks, teleporthacks, thats a shame for a 2014 AAA mmorpg.
New company, new problems, old problems, repeatable problems.
They may learn how to combat it someday, but it probably wont be without a price as people are complaining allot about it.
to me it doesnt hinder me much at all, i just report em and move along.
Speedhacks, teleporthacks, flyhacks and such are the same for everymmorpg the last 12 years. Memory injection.
As of 2014, the use of speed-tp-flyhacks is an instant ban in 99% of them at release. It has been so since 10 years ago it staryed being a nuissance for mmorpg companies.
you forgot about the part that it's a new company to MMO's. Safe to assume that the other companies wont help their competition get to where they are in knowledge
You got not a single hint of what I meant.
F2P companies are able to set their servers to auto-ban memory injections at release (try with ANY medium-populated f2p game and youll learn it yourself) YET, ZMO seems to be the only one who is unable to do so.
Its not a matter of asking other companies, is a matter of putting your **** together.
You know, over the course of years there is something called "progressive knowledge", and one should expect that 12 years old problems are being worked, and not just by asking the competition.
The API is not the problem, as it barely serves them to spam chat, automail quest gold and other minor things that would be useless if they hadnt access to a memory injection hacking arsenal.0 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Concur. Never saw a bot there. If they were there, they disguised themselves well.
I have been playing SWTOR for a year now and haven't seen a single bot. There is the occasional gold seller here and there, but that is it.So it´s like in WoW now?
...or in EVERY other MMO.
I really do not understand the purpose of all these threads... this problem exists in every MMO.
They don't bother trying to disguise themselves in ESO.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"0 -
KerinKor✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Sorry, but this is total rubbish.The open API of the ESO client sadly allows loads of hacks. This has been known long before, I am not sure if they can just easily fix that without totally disabling any type of third party mechanism.
WoW has the exact same problem, that's why I was so worried when I heard that they would allow it at ESO too.
People have been flying through Warsong long before ESO was even mentioned, so yes its not an ESO related issue - every MMO with an open API has these issue´s, even Ultima Online.
The API developers know damn well what's needed to create pos-hacks and the like and so ensure their APIs don't provide functions that can cause such behaviour.
While I'm not going to say NO bots use the add-on API, flyin bots most certainly aren't: I suspect some of the pathing bots may be no more intelligent that 'keyboard stuffers' they aren't as far as I know using the API to do it.
Your reference to Blizzard is flawed in the same way as far as 'flying' is concerned, where you have a valid point is that in the original API they exposed enough functionality that lead to the horror known as Decursive, a heal bot worthy of its name .. if you know what I'm referring to you'll know they killed that and several other borderline-bots by removing some API functions that allowed for this, with a great wailing and gnashing of teeth from the 'healers' who had no idea how to heal at all!
Whether ZOS API has functions is shouldn't have I wouldn't know, what I do know however is that the point's moot: the entirely control system in the is is broken by design due to its client-centric structure that allows bot writers to manipulate client memory and cause the server to be told to do the 'impossible' but since the server is slave to the client it does it .. which is how 'clipping' is disabled to allow flying and walking through solid objects.Edited by KerinKor on May 20, 2014 11:53AM1 -
GreySix✭✭✭✭✭
✭The "smart" botters stay within the API, and they're all but indistinguishable from regular players, some even having triggers to provide canned responses to whispers.
The "prison garb" grouping, flying, and subterranean botters are using out-and-out hacks.Crotchety Old Man Guild
"Hey you, get off my lawn!"1 -
Niliu✭✭✭DrywFiltiarn wrote: »Speedhacks, teleporthacks, flyhacks and such are the same for everymmorpg the last 12 years. Memory injection.
And yet most of them are so easily preventable.
Speedhacks, you know how fast a player can move and which buffs possibly allow faster movement and such, do a delta check on movement over time and you can easily detect serverside, something is off with a players movement (and thus a hack is going on). This detection is impossible to manipulate for the client. Obviously it will require a bit of logic to prevent wayshrine teleports and such from becoming false positives, but you know if someone used a teleport or not, so you can ignore an unexpected value on a delta on that.
Movement on a client will continually be send back to the server (as the server will need to provide that information back to other clients and such), so it's in theory very easy to detect speedhacks and reset players position and then kick them from server.
Teleporthacks, same as above, as far as I know the teleports are beyond regular portal/wayshrine teleporting and thus detectable as invalid movement, as movement speed X over time T calculates to an out of range value for regular (valid) play. Yes you can manipulate the client to allow for this through whatever hack you want, yet the client will report the movement data back to the server, where botters have no control over and thus can be checked.
Flyhacks, basicly it's not a fly-hack, but rather a no-clip hack, which allows players not to just move through the air, but also through the ground and through walls and such. This also is detectable in a lot of cases, but in some cases can't be detected. Movement through walls is hard to detect serverside, although this will depend on what movement data is send back to the server and how often. If the updates back to server are often enough and include information of usage of doors and such (if any present), you could in theory detect if a player moved out of a building using the door or went through a wall. problem is there's many buildings without a door, so this can't be consistently detected.
A lot of no-clipping can be detected though, simply by checking if the XYZ coordinates a client communicates back to the server match up with the map. If those values are off (especially on the Z axis, which controls height) this may/will mean the player is either flying through the air or under ground. This can be hard to manage properly, because this will require some overhead room for areas where you can jump off cliffs for instance, which may temporarily give you invalid XYZ readings if you strictly follow the terrain, although this can be solved by applying a grace-time for instance, where you will allow a player to be for a period of T seconds out of valid coordinates, before intervention takes place. This will prevent players that jump off mountains for instance to be falsely detected, but will catch bots that are underground for a long while harvesting nodes.
Anyway, the story above is a long one, but based upon personal experience of client-server solutions, as I'm a software developer myself. From what I see, going on with the memory-hacks that allow things like no-clipping, this is a failure at server-side to properly sanitize and check data received from clients and detect and flag suspicious behavior. A lot of the things bots are currently doing can be solved with proper server-side validation of received data and kicking the user off the server in case of irregularities. My assumption is that the game is currently relying too much on the client sending back valid information to the server, while there are too many factors that can influence this data and manipulate it. Not just memory-hacks are an option like currently is happening, but I think it's a matter of time before the next issue will arise, namely the manipulation of the network traffic to manipulate movement and possibly even other options that I don't even want to mention here (I don't want to give people ideas).
As a comparison, I've played WoW for a long time as well, and somewhere around a year ago, they too suffered a lot from (regular players, not bots) walking underground, due to errors in collision-detection, that would allow them to pop out of the map without falling infinitely. Blizzard has solved this by auto-kicking the player back to login screen, when they detected this on their servers. Ever since most of the players doing this (although it basicly was harmless as you couldn't do anything anyway underground as you could only do it in cities) stopped doing this as you will have a hard time getting back in, because you will respawn underground again after login and thus be kicked again within 10 seconds or so. This means you will have to heartstone very quickly to prevent being auto-kicked again to move back into the map.
You're hired, you start tomorrow.Gimme back my sweetroll or so help me2 -
Lodestar✭✭✭✭So it´s like in WoW now?
...or in EVERY other MMO.
I really do not understand the purpose of all these threads... this problem exists in every MMO.
City of Heroes/Villains never had it when I played. Champions Online never had it when I played, The secret World never had any gold seller problem. I could go on.
Making blanket statements out of annoyance never wins arguments. As if even if those games did have bots it would make things better anyhow?
I have never seen anything like this in any game I played. The volume and methods are unmatched. If anyone else has witnessed something on this scale, in what game was it, and for how long did it go so prevalent?
Edit:
SWTOR is pretty quiet now, but at launch we had server queues of 20+ minutes. No botting/farming army of this magnitude.Edited by Lodestar on May 20, 2014 5:29PM1 -
Niliu✭✭✭So it´s like in WoW now?
...or in EVERY other MMO.
I really do not understand the purpose of all these threads... this problem exists in every MMO.
City of Heroes/Villains never had it when I played. Champions Online never had it when I played, The secret World never had any gold seller problem. I could go on.
Making blanket statements out of annoyance never wins arguments. As if even if those games did have bots it would make things better anyhow?
I have never seen anything like this in any game I played. The volume and methods are unmatched. If anyone else has witnessed something on this scale, in what game was it, and for how long did it go so prevalent?
Quoting those games is like quoting APB Reloaded. Very few people actually play those games, so gold spammers don't bother.Gimme back my sweetroll or so help me0 -
Lodestar✭✭✭✭Quoting those games is like quoting APB Reloaded. Very few people actually play those games, so gold spammers don't bother.
Oh I get it. Now I proved a point, not all games have gold spammers. You change the rules so you can try invalidate that. Same tactic used by many a spoilt child who can't win a game. No dice.
The person I quoted said what they said and it was as I say a blanket statement to try cut someone down and whine about people whining. My counter still stands. It was a silly thing to say, especially as an attempt at rationale the OP and others should shut up, posting their views on public forums that have no rules preventing them from doing such.
I realise not all these thread about bots are useful, beyond showing a cross section of how prevalent they are, and how many people are hacked off with them (see what I did there
). But, what kind of logic is keeping threads you don't like, alive by bumping them with comments they should stop them? And even give the reason, they should have your experience to boot. And your opinion as it is the one true voice.
Looking here, it seems a multitude of people from varying MMO experiences, are saying this is an issue of much larger scale and depth than they have encountered. That is also valid information, even if it is a notion you yourself do not agree with.
That is fine for someone to say, they feel it is no different to any other game (so long as they try not to skew facts as you and the previous poster I quoted did), or that it does not bother them. I can respect that. But to insist people should have YOUR opinion and play silly games to try present it as the only real opinion of any value, actually discredits you. And that I have much less reverence for.1 -
AbraCadabra✭✭✭After watching these bots for quite some time, I decided to "investigate" a bit and look at the sites that sell/give away these botting programs. On those forums multiple bot users have complained that players in ESO are actually hunting and reporting bots. This leads me to believe that the people complaining about people posting "these types of threads" are bot users themselves.
Just a thought.
Edited by AbraCadabra on May 20, 2014 3:40PM3