U51 Feedback Thread for Classes and Abilities

ZOS_Kevin · August 3

This is the official feedback thread for any combat or class changes coming in Update 51. After you have a chance to try out different combat scenarios, let us know what you think of the current balance and changes.

For context regarding timeline for changes, stats or number changes for skills are changes we can make within the PTS cycle. If the changes or suggestions require more technical changes, we will take those to the combat team and update timelines based on what the team is able to do.

Prionyx · August 3

Where are the class mastery changes you promised?

Radiate77 · August 3

These Werewolf nerfs are too heavy handed.
Meanwhile, Ardent Flame keeps unlimited sustain?

Firstmep · August 3

Gonna copy my thread over here for visibility.

1. potion changes: Like the more variety will have to see the values on the new damage shield and absorption effect, otherwise looks good.

2. Templar losing minor sorcery: one of the lowest damage pvp class loses even more damage, makes 0 sense. Dks are far more suited for the extra armor.

3. Ww nerfs: YES, but fewer sustain nerfs and instead some nerfs to health based healing instead.

4. No mastery changes: despite extensive feedback since these went live, it baffles me how there are literally no changes here. I would really love to hear from any combat dev if they think these are in a good spot especially in pvp.

5. Draugrkin set nerf: This set now does less damage than Dragons Appetite, a set which heals you, while draugrkin actively reduces healing. This set was only remotely op with the % damage from shattered path signet, which no longer grants it's bonus in pvp. Please reconsider this nerf.

6. Damage shield changes, looks good to me, might have to rethink the scaling specifically for Battlegrounds tho.

7. Flame lash nerf. The comment on the change on this genuinely has me worried for pvp balance. Not the nerf, the comment. Molten whip is by far the stronger morph, as flame lash has a fairly big cd and it's easy to play defensive against. Molten whip does more damage and it can be consistently stacked in a couple of seconds. Also heart of flame is far more problematic that either morph of whip to begin with. It's an aoe burst, self heal infinite sustain everything skill.
That's it for now, might update later once pts opens up.

Ps: really like the crushing weapon change!

ElderSmitter · August 3

Did the person in charge of the Templar get fired? No mention no updates no buffs. Nada zippo... Not even a Sorry Templar you are in a good spot until the re work.... We got Zippo!!!

madmufffin · August 3

ElderSmitter wrote: »

Did the person in charge of the Templar get fired? No mention no updates no buffs. Nada zippo... Not even a Sorry Templar you are in a good spot until the re work.... We got Zippo!!!

Plar got nerfed in fact

Wuuffyy · August 3

Please, return werewolf 30% stam and remove the 30% density you provided on the rework patch. This stam was meant to give us the scaling and sustain, it was removed as sustain became very high, now that is no longer the case as many skills have tripled in costs- please return our old 'stam' stat buff and remove the scaling density.

PLEASE return the 10 seconds for claws. This skill RARELY wants to land in any PvP environment and I will be at a point where I borderline no longer want to cast BloodClaws any more for the unreliability and stam costs alone.

PLEASE return the 4 seconds back to the berserker bleed in PvP. It was HEAVILY nerfed from prior live to the 'rework patch' live and remains the most awkward (in terms of tooltip), unforgiving dot in the entire game.

Just throw us a bone, you RIPPED us a part including our only on-demand heal even further yet leave everyone else nearly as powerful as they were when you started the patch (cough DK... cough).

rlindsey912nub18_ESO · August 3

Lmao what class changes nbs are still trash and the class passives are still trash

Hagrett · August 3

Templar losing minor sorcery and getting an armour buff in it's place is frankly, rubbish.

Lykeion · August 3

I hope the devs can remove the newly added PTS restriction that allows Insatiable Hunger to be triggered in combat only when the player has less than 200 ultimate, or refine it with more precise context-based conditions.

I previously wrote a dynamic IH Blocker addon to address the issue of IH appearing too frequently. My first attempt actually used the same approach: allowing IH to trigger only when the player's ultimate was below a certain threshold. However, during actual gameplay, I found this condition to be very clunky. In some longer encounters, the problems it caused far outweighed the benefits of blocking IH.

The most obvious example is the final boss of Lucent Citadel. During this fight, players need to spend long periods moving or waiting (such as during the necro bridge phase), without enough active combat opportunities to generate enough fury to trigger rampage and prevent ultimate decay. This can eventually result in players being unable to maintain ww form.

Additionally, this condition prevents Werewolves from participating in ulti pulls. Ulti pulls are a strategy used by prog groups in trials to build ultimate before an encounter, ensuring everyone starts the fight in the best possible state. Restricting IH to only when ult is below 200 means ww can gain only a limited amount of ultimate during an ulti pull, leaving them with a higher risk of dropping out of ww form early during the actual fight.

If this is useful as a reference for the devs, the rule I currently use in my Insatiable Hunger Blocker addon is: when the player has not dealt direct damage for 2 seconds, temporarily allow IH to be used while in combat. I believe this rule works very well in practice and is much more flexible in handling different situations.

Edit: I adjusted my feedback to better align with the new rules on the PTS. Thanks for Kazajhan's reminder

ElderSmitter · August 3

Templar should have gotten Armor and a group Penetration Buff combined. What a terrible update for my Templar. I am very disappointed.

Kazajhan · August 3

It sounds like it solves the problem for PvP but leaves endgame PvE hanging out in the wind.

I'm playing Werewolf with a trial learning group, and not being able to use Insatiable Hunger during combat unless I'm injured (there's a healer) or below 200 ultimate (not a good place to start the next big fight from, or to get to in the middle of protracted combat). Am I reading that correctly? Not to mention that the sustain is going to become a challenge.

And then after boss combat, the adds often despawn, so no Insatiable Hunger there either.

This has gone from me saying "Hey, you know what else I did? I held werewolf form through all of vet Dreadsail Reef!" because I had managed Insatiable Hunger and got my light attack weaving up.

I appreciate the attempt to not nerf Werewolf PvE, but as I said before in other places: don't globally nerf the class, make the changes specific to PvP.

propertyOfUndefined · August 3

Considering how often poisons can proc on a target and the amount of healing players put out, this seems terribly underwhelming to me. I could be wrong, but I feel like regular DOT poisons will easily outshine this.

Sordidfairytale · August 3

The armor and penetration buffs should be unique sources of damage mitigation and damage increase. Both of those buffs are easy to cap via other common buffs.

Additionally these buffs should not be tied to a specific line. Warden providing minor toughness when healing with any ability, is the right way to do these. Using any appropriate ability to damage or heal should be what triggers these class buffs.

Kazajhan · August 3

Let me correct my posting about Insatiable Hunger:

The additional stipulations, I think, should only apply in PvP if that's where there's a problem.

Limiting Insatiable Hunger to: 1) out of combat, OR 2) below 66% health, OR 3) below 200 Ultimate
...is going to seriously affect using Werewolf in advanced PvE content. Trials, long battles, that kind of thing.

It's not likely to be below 66% health if in a group with a healer (Please don't heal me! I need to eat!)
200 is not enough ultimate to go into a big fight with.
Corpses don't persist after combat in some trial scenarios.

It is already difficult enough to play Werewolf in PvE: Even without the Insatiable Hunger updates, I have to maintain light attack weaving, intersperse Insatiable Hunger during combat, and if I don't and ult drops far enough, I'm suddenly a different class with a different attack bar. That's sometimes not easy to notice in group combat with lots of effects going on and I can barely see my character.

What I'm asking for is:

Fix the Werewolf problems in PvP. I hear PvP players. Valid concerns.
Don't wreck what has become a great class to play in PvE.

Morvan · August 3

Since the class refreshes are delayed, can we please get some tiny quality of life changes to some class skills? One that really bothers me is Assassin's Blade...

We have a magicka and a stamina morph, one is ranged and the other melee, but being magicka or stamina doesn't really dictate if you're ranged or melee, this forces archers to use melee executes and magicka builds are stuck with the weaker ranged morph even if they're melee, it's really counterintuitive.

Can we PLEASE have this skill and morphs cost to be based on your highest resource like Runeblades and Fatecarver? The choice on morph here should be based on playstyle, not if you're magicka or stamina.

Arunei · August 3

So you basically went back on the changes to WW Stam usage and have made it unviable for Mag builds again? Why not just have the Skills base off your higher Stat or, better yet, make use of the 'against players' tag or Battle Spirit?

You literally have the tools to adjust Skills and Sets with these things yet make little use of them. Why? Apply a debuff to WW via Battle Spirit that increases their Skill Cost by like 35% or something (arbitrary number only used for example purposes).

The Combat Team NEEDS to start using the tools they have to make certain adjustments so PvE isn't affected adversely for the sake of PvP (and vice versa, tho that scenario tends to happen a lot less often).

coop500 · August 3

You guys gutted Magicka Werewolf, please please please reconsider.

When the werewolf rework first came out, we were told that the skills were made stupidly cheap so that Magicka characters can comfortably play werewolf. This was largely a flawed approach, I said it was, and now we're seeing the repercussions of why that was a flawed approach.

it would be very easy to fix this without harming the actual balance of the game. Give werewolf the Arcanist treatment.

Make the skills that currently cost stamina have the 'uses the resource that has the highest maximum'. So if you have more magicka than stamina, bam now the skills cost magicka.

For Hircine's Bounty/Fortitude, give it the reverse treatment. If your magicka is higher than your stamina, now it costs Stamina.

This won't hurt balance, this will just make Magicka Werewolves viable again, AS WE WERE PROMISED with the rework!

Yes hybridization exists, but this is an RPG. My main werewolf character is a frost mage breton. I can't have a stamina based frost mage. I can't have a stamina based staff user either, because all those skills COST MAGICKA.

And please for the love of everything, STOP NERFING STUFF IN PVE FOR THE SAKE OF PVP

You said that you were happy with where werewolf was at in PvE? This is going to hurt them, full stop. For a problem that did not exist in PvE.

And worse still, these changes don't actually fix the major issue in PvP either. All this change does is now force all werewolves to run the toxic setups of 40K HP and abusing that Sorcerer Mastery for infinite sustain.

These changes just hurt the little guys, the casual players, the people not abusing the meta to the max degree.

ssewallb14_ESO · August 3

Just why with Strife? The skill has been dead for like 8 years.

madmufffin · August 3

coop500 wrote: »

You guys gutted Magicka Werewolf, please please please reconsider.

When the werewolf rework first came out, we were told that the skills were made stupidly cheap so that Magicka characters can comfortably play werewolf. This was largely a flawed approach, I said it was, and now we're seeing the repercussions of why that was a flawed approach.

it would be very easy to fix this without harming the actual balance of the game. Give werewolf the Arcanist treatment.

Make the skills that currently cost stamina have the 'uses the resource that has the highest maximum'. So if you have more magicka than stamina, bam now the skills cost magicka.

For Hircine's Bounty/Fortitude, give it the reverse treatment. If your magicka is higher than your stamina, now it costs Stamina.

This won't hurt balance, this will just make Magicka Werewolves viable again, AS WE WERE PROMISED with the rework!

Yes hybridization exists, but this is an RPG. My main werewolf character is a frost mage breton. I can't have a stamina based frost mage. I can't have a stamina based staff user either, because all those skills COST MAGICKA.

And please for the love of everything, STOP NERFING STUFF IN PVE FOR THE SAKE OF PVP

You said that you were happy with where werewolf was at in PvE? This is going to hurt them, full stop. For a problem that did not exist in PvE.

And worse still, these changes don't actually fix the major issue in PvP either. All this change does is now force all werewolves to run the toxic setups of 40K HP and abusing that Sorcerer Mastery for infinite sustain.

These changes just hurt the little guys, the casual players, the people not abusing the meta to the max degree.

Werewolf skills being stam thematically makes more sense much like vampire skills being mag. Arcanist just should've never opened the can or worms for resource based costs.

ArctosCethlenn · August 3

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Just why with Strife? The skill has been dead for like 8 years.

to help make it less dead? its damage is the same as swallow soul now, healing ratio is the same so its just a choice between group healing or selfish with massive cost reduction, which feels like a more meaningful choice.

ssewallb14_ESO · August 3

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Just why with Strife? The skill has been dead for like 8 years.

to help make it less dead? its damage is the same as swallow soul now, healing ratio is the same so its just a choice between group healing or selfish with massive cost reduction, which feels like a more meaningful choice.

I misread the patch note, Swallow Soul actually might be decent now. 4k for Funnel Health is absolutely not worth it though.

albertberku · August 3

Conservation of Energy: Max Health scaled healing on every ability cast is still overperforming.

DK: Still too powerful in PvP compared to anything else in the game.
Petrify: Still most powerful CC in the game just because it is buggy and doesnt let you break free occasionally. Make it either instant cast, or delay the hit time making it on par with Rune Cage AND make it clearer that you are going to get hit by this (like Rune Cage).

Sustain: Still infinite in PvP for everyone now. Make sustain once again important. Fights are not ending at the moment and with sustain being not important bad gameplay is rewarded.

Elemental Susceptibility change is a step in the right direction.

Proc Sets, Proc Sets, Proc Sets. At least tone down them a bit, so that they are not the most powerful options in PvP all the time.

coop500 · August 3

madmufffin wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

You guys gutted Magicka Werewolf, please please please reconsider.

When the werewolf rework first came out, we were told that the skills were made stupidly cheap so that Magicka characters can comfortably play werewolf. This was largely a flawed approach, I said it was, and now we're seeing the repercussions of why that was a flawed approach.

it would be very easy to fix this without harming the actual balance of the game. Give werewolf the Arcanist treatment.

Make the skills that currently cost stamina have the 'uses the resource that has the highest maximum'. So if you have more magicka than stamina, bam now the skills cost magicka.

For Hircine's Bounty/Fortitude, give it the reverse treatment. If your magicka is higher than your stamina, now it costs Stamina.

This won't hurt balance, this will just make Magicka Werewolves viable again, AS WE WERE PROMISED with the rework!

Yes hybridization exists, but this is an RPG. My main werewolf character is a frost mage breton. I can't have a stamina based frost mage. I can't have a stamina based staff user either, because all those skills COST MAGICKA.

And please for the love of everything, STOP NERFING STUFF IN PVE FOR THE SAKE OF PVP

You said that you were happy with where werewolf was at in PvE? This is going to hurt them, full stop. For a problem that did not exist in PvE.

And worse still, these changes don't actually fix the major issue in PvP either. All this change does is now force all werewolves to run the toxic setups of 40K HP and abusing that Sorcerer Mastery for infinite sustain.

These changes just hurt the little guys, the casual players, the people not abusing the meta to the max degree.

Werewolf skills being stam thematically makes more sense much like vampire skills being mag. Arcanist just should've never opened the can or worms for resource based costs.

But why? If Arcanist can cast a magic book beam with stamina, why can't I have fun with a viable frost mage werewolf? It hurts nobody, you're not forced to run it, but it means I can actually have fun in the game instead of wasting material resources being forced to go back to stamina (a build I enjoy less) when the devs PROMISED US that they wanted to make werewolf viable for magicka builds. And doing it in the Arcanist way is the most fair and balanced way to do it, rather than making the skills cost almost nothing and then tripling the cost and hoping nobody cares.

Udrath · August 3

Major force should not go on potions unless major force and minor force are nerfed to 10% and 5%. That will create to much power creep in the future, mostly on classes that do not or will not suffer from sustain issues.

If strife and funnel are getting resource increases, then the heal needs to be at a set value regardless how hard it hits. The heal will always be low when it is blocked or highly mitigated.

Dragonknight wings are incredibly strong. They provide a stun kickback, snare removal, major expedition, and a 50% damage reduction from projectiles. Imagine a skill that did 50% damage reduction to melee damage. That’d be insane right?

Instead it should reflect the next direct attack (1). But if it’ really needs to be providing that much damage reduction, then it shouldn’t have a stun, major expedition and snare removal. It’s too much on one skill that provides that much mitigation.

Or least remove major expedition and reduce it to 10% damage reduction, or major protection.

twing1_ · August 3

The werewolf sustain changes feel like they miss the mark entirely.

Most werewolf builds (in PvP) are already performing pretty well and are in balance. That being said, there are a few vastly over-performing werewolf builds that are being abused right now. These problematic, overperforming builds all have one thing in common: they take advantage of the way class passive and mastery skills synergize with werewolf form.

Sorcerer werewolves are by far the largest offender with their access to the Sorcerer mastery skills "Conservation of Energy" and "Static Reverberation", that work with werewolf form to give the player unlimited health, stamina, and magicka sustain and also a free source of damage.

I am outlining the synergies between Sorcerer passive and mastery skills with werewolf form because they are perhaps the largest offender, but other class passives and masteries are problematic in werewolf form as well, like DK's Landslide/Inexorable Descent, NB's Eye for Exploitation, and Warden's minor toughness on healing, just to name a few.

The increase to werewolf skill stamina cost does nothing to address these overperforming interactions, and instead hurts the least problematic werewolf builds the most. Sorcerer werewolves still have infinite sustain due to conservation of energy and free damage due to static reverberation.

The proper adjustment to werewolves would be to completely disable class passive and mastery skills while in werewolf form, as this adjustment is targeted at only the highest performing werewolf builds and will leave the power floor of the werewolf playstyle untouched.

The increase to werewolf skill stamina costs should be reverted in favor of disabling all class passive and mastery skills while in werewolf form.

ArctosCethlenn · August 3

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

ArctosCethlenn wrote: »

ssewallb14_ESO wrote: »

Just why with Strife? The skill has been dead for like 8 years.

to help make it less dead? its damage is the same as swallow soul now, healing ratio is the same so its just a choice between group healing or selfish with massive cost reduction, which feels like a more meaningful choice.

I misread the patch note, Swallow Soul actually might be decent now. 4k for Funnel Health is absolutely not worth it though.

Been running a soulcleaver/swallow soul setup in pvp since the set came out, patch note is a decent buff to SS healing (14.28% to the base), but with funnel now at the same damage+healing ratio and multitarget for the healing there's definitely room to swap to that when playing with others, even at the higher cost. It doesn't really do anything for the traditional stabby nightblade which zos seems to have forgotten about, but siphoner magblade its definitely a nice improvement.

madmufffin · August 3

coop500 wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

You guys gutted Magicka Werewolf, please please please reconsider.

When the werewolf rework first came out, we were told that the skills were made stupidly cheap so that Magicka characters can comfortably play werewolf. This was largely a flawed approach, I said it was, and now we're seeing the repercussions of why that was a flawed approach.

it would be very easy to fix this without harming the actual balance of the game. Give werewolf the Arcanist treatment.

Make the skills that currently cost stamina have the 'uses the resource that has the highest maximum'. So if you have more magicka than stamina, bam now the skills cost magicka.

For Hircine's Bounty/Fortitude, give it the reverse treatment. If your magicka is higher than your stamina, now it costs Stamina.

This won't hurt balance, this will just make Magicka Werewolves viable again, AS WE WERE PROMISED with the rework!

Yes hybridization exists, but this is an RPG. My main werewolf character is a frost mage breton. I can't have a stamina based frost mage. I can't have a stamina based staff user either, because all those skills COST MAGICKA.

And please for the love of everything, STOP NERFING STUFF IN PVE FOR THE SAKE OF PVP

You said that you were happy with where werewolf was at in PvE? This is going to hurt them, full stop. For a problem that did not exist in PvE.

And worse still, these changes don't actually fix the major issue in PvP either. All this change does is now force all werewolves to run the toxic setups of 40K HP and abusing that Sorcerer Mastery for infinite sustain.

These changes just hurt the little guys, the casual players, the people not abusing the meta to the max degree.

Werewolf skills being stam thematically makes more sense much like vampire skills being mag. Arcanist just should've never opened the can or worms for resource based costs.

But why? If Arcanist can cast a magic book beam with stamina, why can't I have fun with a viable frost mage werewolf? It hurts nobody, you're not forced to run it, but it means I can actually have fun in the game instead of wasting material resources being forced to go back to stamina (a build I enjoy less) when the devs PROMISED US that they wanted to make werewolf viable for magicka builds. And doing it in the Arcanist way is the most fair and balanced way to do it, rather than making the skills cost almost nothing and then tripling the cost and hoping nobody cares.

I don't agree with the nerfs to werewolf as it just doesn't accomplish anything to fix the issue. I also said that they should've never done resource based costing unless they were just going to apply it to every class, because it just creates an infinite complaining loop as someone always wants the same treatment to their special thing. It's a game and people should have fun with what they want, but it's also a fantasy game where thematical components are important and WW objectively should be a stam costing class.

coop500 · August 3

twing1_ wrote: »

The werewolf sustain changes feel like they miss the mark entirely.

Most werewolf builds (in PvP) are already performing pretty well and are in balance. That being said, there are a few vastly over-performing werewolf builds that are being abused right now. These problematic, overperforming builds all have one thing in common: they take advantage of the way class passive and mastery skills synergize with werewolf form.

Sorcerer werewolves are by far the largest offender with their access to the Sorcerer mastery skills "Conservation of Energy" and "Static Reverberation", that work with werewolf form to give the player unlimited health, stamina, and magicka sustain and also a free source of damage.

I am outlining the synergies between Sorcerer passive and mastery skills with werewolf form because they are perhaps the largest offender, but other class passives and masteries are problematic in werewolf form as well, like DK's Landslide/Inexorable Descent, NB's Eye for Exploitation, and Warden's minor toughness on healing, just to name a few.

The increase to werewolf skill stamina cost does nothing to address these overperforming interactions, and instead hurts the least problematic werewolf builds the most. Sorcerer werewolves still have infinite sustain due to conservation of energy and free damage due to static reverberation.

The proper adjustment to werewolves would be to completely disable class passive and mastery skills while in werewolf form, as this adjustment is targeted at only the highest performing werewolf builds and will leave the power floor of the werewolf playstyle untouched.

The increase to werewolf skill stamina costs should be reverted in favor of disabling all class passive and mastery skills while in werewolf form.

I would accept this trade too. It sucks because there's a few less problematic class masteries that I enjoy, but I rather take this trade than what we got here.
As it stands, the changes do nothing but hurt the middle and floor, while the ceiling will continue giving WW players a bad name.

Panderbander · August 3

The change to preventing Insatiable Hunger usage outside of those specific circumstances is another blow to Berserker form sustain and damage as the Berserker morph specifically states "If you are a Werewolf Berserker, each tick activates Fury generation", which this change now locks the player out of, preventing us from gaining fury during downtime within a fight unless we're already at a precipitous Ultimate level. Please, consider removing these requirements for berserker wolves or scrapping this change altogether.

madmufffin · August 3

twing1_ wrote: »

The proper adjustment to werewolves would be to completely disable class passive and mastery skills while in werewolf form, as this adjustment is targeted at only the highest performing werewolf builds and will leave the power floor of the werewolf playstyle untouched.
.

This would have to be a "while battle spirit is active" change. It would remove at least 20% from WW dps in a pve scenario.