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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – November 18
• ESO Store and Account System for maintenance – November 19, 9:00AM EST (14:00 UTC) - 6:00PM EST (23:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: EU megaserver for maintenance – November 19, 23:00 UTC (6:00PM EST) - November 20, 17:00 UTC (12:00PM EST)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668861
Itemization and progression is terrible?
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metaldrummer1962b14a_ESO wrote: »Go back to WoW
Never got into it...too much like a kids game.. sorry.
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thjudgeman1142ub17_ESO wrote: »For me I dont understand the overcharge issue or why it is implimented... It does ruin the idea that a I can have a blue or purple lvl 10 item that essentially does nothing for me above that of a white or green due to the OVERCHARGE penalty... why? Why punish people with gimped stats because the have taken the time to kit out an alt. Does not make much sense to me.
If someone could explain I'd like to hear please. Also I think this is part of what the OP is saying.
This is why games hide caps.
Overcharged isn't unique to ESO, almost all MMOs have caps. Overcharged just means the game is letting you know about it. Is it possible that they need to rebalance some of the caps? Sure, that argument can be made. But you can't argue that they shouldn't have caps at all, because all MMOs have them for very good reason. All you are doing is demonstrating why they usually hide them from the players.
Ok got it. I think it does need to be adjusted in lower levels to allow for some differentiation between people... whats the use of item tiers if you cap out too soon.
And hiding things like this or not explaining them to the player base very well will always raise questions... thanks for your responses as they helped.
@Shimond I get the diminishing returns at endgame... it has to end somewhere... but early on it just seems too abitrary in that it negates the need to even try to kit out your character with blue or purple gear as the reward for all that hard work is much less... pre endgame.
At this point a dead horse is just being... abused
so thanks for the responses
Edited by thjudgeman1142ub17_ESO on April 10, 2014 3:24PM0 -
Vikova✭✭✭✭✭thjudgeman1142ub17_ESO wrote: »This still seems way to arbitrary to limit everyone to a certain item/skill level which gimps those who are kitted out better.
Can you explain this comment? I fail to see how overcharging has anything whatsoever to do with gimping someone. You can be overcharged at any character level and caps have nothing to do with skill.1 -
Stautmeister✭✭✭I assume overcharge is mainly there for pvp. No overcharge means gear is a major influence in pvp battles. THe overcharge mechanic evens this out a bit and makes the advantages marginal, yet present.An orc marrying a wood elf?! Enjoy your Borsimer mutants!0 -
Darrett✭✭✭✭I'm pleased to read this OP, sounds like they're doing itemization right. No more VR10s one-shotting those filthy VR1s because they dared to PvP before putting in the proper grind time in raids with 39 of their best friends pressing "5" over and over.
New items give you an advantage. It's a small one, but it's an advantage. Sounds like DAoC, in which equipment was not necessary to PvP, but you did get an advantage for getting 100% overcharge spellcrafted armor. Excellent work on the part of the developers.
The comment about wanting to move fast to reduce that boring walking time sums the whole thing up to me. You're missing out on a lot.1 -
Vikova✭✭✭✭✭kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »I assume overcharge is mainly there for pvp. No overcharge means gear is a major influence in pvp battles. THe overcharge mechanic evens this out a bit and makes the advantages marginal, yet present.
It is overall balancing, not just PvP. All combat in-game would be horribly unbalanced without caps.1 -
The game hasn't even been out a week yet and you're into veteran ranks.
How do you feel you didn't rush the game? What world are you living on?
5 days early access + 7 days since launch ....
I'am VR1 from just exploring and causal questing, you can level without trying to level.
Saying that im just starting on the Vet zones and still feel the joy I did at the start of early access, I have no complaints about the speed, gearing or anything else for that matter.0 -
Zooce✭✭✭A very good point has been made in this thread more than once the OP should heed.
As many have pointed out the perception is that the OP rushed to the end in order to be 'max', which he also agreed is his preferred style, which is fine, each to their own.
If the gear upgrades at the end made a bigger difference to your character than they do today - it would open up an even bigger gap to those of us taking our time to play the content, even when we hit 50.
- Remember PVP is an important part of ESO, so balance needs to be maintained, and we need to protect against 'god like' players who rush through content (which is fine), as it would ruin the experience for those who want to play the content, and remain in contention.
- The itemization is good for now.0 -
ZRage✭✭✭Oh lol guys you say about this this itemization balancing for PvP while in same time there are level 10 characters running around against VR 10. My point is it's just not so interesting that 95% of character stats come out from character level itself. It simply makes customization and economy unimportant and trivial in this game.
Someone said it is excellent design, lol you probably get to Vr 5+, max out your crafting and start realize all this time invested to do that is completly worthless like anyways. Things like enchanting make no sense at all you can use normal enchant on item and it gets upgraded when you upgrade the item with tempers and moreover set items from drop cannot be enchanted aswell. This trivial itemization simply affects all the other in game systems and it just feels bad.Edited by ZRage on April 10, 2014 5:55PM0 -
Vodkaphile✭✭✭I cant be the only one relieved that gear doesn't play as a big a role as it does in most MMO's?
The implications are terrible in PvE AND PvP when gear is too powerful. Look at the state most MMO's are in right now, take the two most popular: WoW and Rift.
WoW: high end PvE gear absolutely train wrecks any PvP gear, you get killed in a single stun. Only way to get the gear is to raid for 12+ hours a week in hardmodes hoping your gear drops, and that's only if you have a full raid of competent players to assist you with. Rift, the gear treadmill has made it so you need to spend 500 hours farming the best PvP gear to compete, yet all you do is get farmed because a guy in full R80 gear will two shot you without even knowing he did it.
You are essentially still doing single player content, by the way. I'm scared gear is going to be too meaningful when Trials appear, because any content larger than 4 players is inaccessible to a lot of people.1 -
Zooce✭✭✭Exactly Vodkaphile, the reason the OP doesn't see this, or doesn't want to see this, is because he would be the one playing 'god mode'. I LOVE the fact there is more skill and less loot in ESO, OMG finally! Plus there are so many skills to try out, and different ways of getting things done, the flexibility rocks.
I bet those rushing to 50 are not getting all skyshards & completing quests -so they are gimping themselves on skill points. Skill points are critical in ESO, as noted by the OP.0 -
ZRage✭✭✭It's not about god mode it is about progression which is core fo cRPG game, and by the way even here the whole game circles around god mode already which is emperorship... Getting VR 10, and mass skill points is still heavy focused on the grind so the point is why the itemization is scrapped from the whole game and so unimportant when you have to grind this, quests, mobs, anchors dungeons anyway.
For me it just means less customization, less experimenting with builds and gear lack of rarity and gear importance just makes whole itemization and progress trivial. Like I said crafting is good example, after some time people will realize how unrewarding this systems are. I'm still enjoying the game but it is something this game lacks in my opinion, I'm not talking about items that give you twice as much damage but something else than linear +2 health upgrade after days of playing.Edited by ZRage on April 10, 2014 7:27PM1 -
Zooce✭✭✭But Zrage - if they are big upgrades, think what you would be in 6 weeks time, or 12 weeks time, or 18 weeks time at your play rate? You would be able to dominate Cyrodil. Do you see? That's why improvements need to be small. They are still improvements, just small ones.0
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Shimond✭✭✭✭Not to mention adventure zone hasn't arrived yet. Who the hell knows what kind of rewards come from there. You might get all your dreams of a god-like state of being after all.0 -
ZRage✭✭✭This are not upgrades you don't understand this at all. Plus there are dozens of way to balance PvP other than completely trivialize the itemization which is what we got here.
Let's say I got build focused on Warlock set which drops ONLY for VR 1 zone, scaled with VR 1 stats... You get this ? As soon as I start improving my VR ranks I got option to use higher VR rank gear which is inferior to VR1 sets anyway. You'll see this as soon as you hit VR levels that customization, crafting and whole itemization is so trivialized it is just sad. We are talking possible 1-2% total character stat upgrade from VR1 crap gear to VR 10 perfect gear. Like everything you will find at this point including gold is like usless at this point.
I can understand PvP balance measures but this itemization is simply non - existent here, customization and item progress is so limited and linear extremely. I just thought whole item game and economy is big part of MMO, right know we will have like zero item economy in the game.
I understand your way of thinking but seriously when you will get to where I'm you will probably notice all of this yourself :>Edited by ZRage on April 10, 2014 8:23PM1 -
Zooce✭✭✭We will see, but I have played many MMOs to end game raiding levels, and like the idea of end game items being only small improvements, for the reasons already stated.0
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Moobs✭✭✭I just watched 12 years a slave but skipped ahead to the last 10 minutes because that's how I like to watch movies. What a stupid movie! No character progression. The ending was rushed and clearly incomplete.Edited by Moobs on April 10, 2014 10:28PM1 -
ZRage✭✭✭I just watched 12 years a slave but skipped ahead to the last 10 minutes because that's how I like to watch movies. What a stupid movie! No character progression. The ending was rushed and clearly incomplete.
I didn't skip anything you clearly didn't understand my post yet you are going sarcastic mode >.< If you skip or not it doesn't change the fact that whole item progression is completely linear dull and unimportant. Why even upgrade your items with tempers on lower levels when you can hardly see the difference at all lol and more important after a hour or so you will find better items anyway.
Edited by ZRage on April 11, 2014 4:39AM1 -
I'm still only close to 40. I have taken time to read and get involved in the stories, to explore. Your failure if I may say so, is you blew past it all in some wild expectation for it to be like all other games. ES titles have always been about the progression of the story/the immersion of yourself into the world, so you missed it .. and now you were expecting different content. Isn't that a bit of irony? For those quoting level 50 end game in percentages are simply in my perspective just as lost.
@Teroh Bypassing the massiveness of content and story and noting it only as a small percentage. Already favors the logic that you amidst many others like you, have failed to grasp what ES truly was meaning to be. And were just blowing through it it all in some hope to epeen everywhere. I think epeens have been sufficiently been blocked. Move on and level again, or find another game. Maybe engage the story this time around, you might enjoy it. As I have. As many others have, and THAT is the truth life of a game. End game is often minor plots with challenges all their own, but more linear and consistent. Leveling and roaming affords you to engage in every story, every twist a game provides, to fully understand the actions that were taken, by what means it was needed, etc. I have had to deal with people doing this in other games, then clueless on the stories playing out in the end game. And having to feel I need to recap, so they don't seem so in the dark. If you all want a hack and slash and loot, go play Diablo or some variant thereof. I am happy with how they have done things so far. And I am sure I will be fine with how they have done end game as well. It has not been rash, random, ill planned as others here have noted. And highly doubt it is at end game. You all can call it a lack of, missing, ill planned all you like. I have yet to see anything in ESO that has not sought to be reflective of the game they really wished to create. If it displeases you as I have said before. Nothing binds you here. And simply you all should enjoy it more, complain less."Reality does not exist online. So please do not infect my gaming experience with your perception of reality."0 -
Gaudrath✭✭✭
Hoh, do try PvP and tell me how everybody wins.
I think people are still not getting the simple fact that PvP in this game IS endgame. That's why there is no heavy focus on raiding and item progression. All items, ever, will always be subjected to the attribute caps which is what keeps them in line for PvP.
So you will never see uber powerful tiers of gear that turn you into a demigod compared to lesser mortals. You will never see PvE progression gates tying to ever more powerful gear. This game is not designed that way.
You may see rare and relatively hard to get pieces, but their distinctiveness will be limited to visuals only. They will never give you an edge over previously available stuff.
I think that's good design. Most people are in it for the looks and bragging rights. And it will actually force developers to come up with more inventive PvE mechanics that are more difficult not because the new boss has 2x the HP and hits 3x as hard, but because it's difficult to figure out, coordinate against and handle in general.
I hope the devs are ready for that.
Edited by Gaudrath on April 11, 2014 7:42AM0 -
atthwsm✭Im probably necroing this but I dont care. This OP has hit it spot on.
MMOS have always been about gear progression. ALWAYS. You kept playing WoW and EQ2 and whatever with the idea that as you move on to harder content you would be rewarded with items that reflect that. Its not bragging rights, its what MMOS are.
As it stands, there are 2? Sets that are drop only that dont completely blow. The crafted sets are generally complete trash considering they require 5-8 trait researched and provide next to nothing.
Go clear some vr10 dungeons please, spend hours and hours running them to get awesomely named items like " Soul Rack " purple that is actually just a dunmer style +40 fire dmg +5% pen item. Know what? I can craft that in 5 seconds. The exact same item. But oh no its not called anything cool.
I understand the game is new, all MMOS have crap end game gear at launch, but the problem is the ENTIRE LEVELING process leaves nothing to hope for. Go craft your set, make it blue or purple, and youll never, NEVER, get an upgrade from quests or dungeons or world bosses. I gurantee it.
So this leaves the question, why continue to play? What are you working towards and chasing if not unique and epic items?
Dont say storyline. With how VR was designed (which was horrible) you will probably hit 99% of the story on your way to vr10. Dont say crafting, because hitting research when you can doesnt count as time consuming. Dont say an ALT, because most people in no way want to hit even vr5+, only to make an ALT that will literally do THE EXACT SAME quests you JUST DID on your vr toon. And for what? 20 odd skills that will be new out of the 500 there are?
Im not even vr10, Im sitting at vr8 with zero reason to play. Craglorn hasnt show any specifics about how gear will work aside from more of the same. If your really getting excited over +2 dmg and an extra 7 magicka in an upgrade then you have never played a real mmo. (Dont you dare count GW2 lol)0 -
atthwsm✭
Hoh, do try PvP and tell me how everybody wins.
I think people are still not getting the simple fact that PvP in this game IS endgame. That's why there is no heavy focus on raiding and item progression. All items, ever, will always be subjected to the attribute caps which is what keeps them in line for PvP.
So you will never see uber powerful tiers of gear that turn you into a demigod compared to lesser mortals. You will never see PvE progression gates tying to ever more powerful gear. This game is not designed that way.
You may see rare and relatively hard to get pieces, but their distinctiveness will be limited to visuals only. They will never give you an edge over previously available stuff.
I think that's good design. Most people are in it for the looks and bragging rights. And it will actually force developers to come up with more inventive PvE mechanics that are more difficult not because the new boss has 2x the HP and hits 3x as hard, but because it's difficult to figure out, coordinate against and handle in general.
I hope the devs are ready for that.
Everything you just said is wrong. PvP the end game for a TES game? Really? ARe you simple? How dare you try and equate this to GW2 mentality of crap where the end game was simple visual changes. That game just did super remember? Oh right it didnt, because grown ups figured out that was ahorrible concept in about 2 weeks.
Just wow, you embody everything that could ruin ESO in one post, thank you sir.0 -
Ok so in other words OP wants WoW effect. Naked top player does *** and you equip your best gear and your stats raise milion times up. I feel sorry for your pain, but with all honesty I will always prefer game where equipment plays secondary role. I play RPGs for quests, story and exploration not to get rewarding OP items just for logging in as it is epic achievement...0 -
ArRashid✭✭✭✭You're kinda right.
But since the only currently used traits are Precise on weapons and Infused on armor, I guess they have a lot of space for reworking the other 14 traits.
Training and Defending on weapons have their uses.. training ofc not in endgame, but Defending can be good for tanks, if they insist on overcharging too much
What about:
Weighted - adding a bit of Weapon Power instead of really useless Attack Speed
Charged - add a bit of Spell Damage instead of useless more charges (soul gems are everywhere and cheap)
Infused - needs a buff to get on par
Sharpened - needs a buff
Sturdy - tripple buffed or working for whole gear instead of 1 piece
Exploration - reworked completely - totally useless now
Reinforced - working for whole gear (right now I see difference of about 5 armor)
Divines - god knows WTF it is doing, but if it's really increasing that meager maybe 20 bonus to a stat by 4%, I guess not much..
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mutharex✭✭✭✭✭Can we have a new section in the forums and call it "wowkiddies post here!"
So we get a bit less trash in the normal forums1
