You're a billion dollar company.

ESO is your flagship game.

It brings in tens of millions a month.

And a planned class refresh is pushed back for an entire year? really guys?

I think the thing that frustrates me about these kind of newsletters is that they tell us their decision to push back the class refresh but there’s no real depth to why that decision has been made. I'm not saying we need a deep dive into the in's and outs of it all but it would be nice to know a little bit more of why exactly it's been pushed back so far. ZoS clearly has resources, why are they not being spent on giving the players what they actually want? And more importantly what you promised us?

Really disappointing.

FlipFlopFrog wrote: »

You're a billion dollar company.

ESO is your flagship game.

It brings in tens of millions a month.

And a planned class refresh is pushed back for an entire year? really guys?

I think the thing that frustrates me about these kind of newsletters is that they tell us their decision to push back the class refresh but there’s no real depth to why that decision has been made. I'm not saying we need a deep dive into the in's and outs of it all but it would be nice to know a little bit more of why exactly it's been pushed back so far. ZoS clearly has resources, why are they not being spent on giving the players what they actually want? And more importantly what you promised us?

Really disappointing.

A huge portion of them got laid off. They are working with less people.

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

1) buff nb 0.o does not equate to nerf everything else

2) balance in a wizard game matters to players. My characters should feel powerful and there are an abundance of ways to fix problems or gaps other than nerfs which are basically your go to method of resolving, well anything. There were essentially NO werewolves prior to the rework likely because a playstyle that is meant to represent something powerful was woefully lacking in every department, that trickles down to even the most casual of players with RP (a place that your ‘one bar bad’ and ‘should be meme spec’ camp undoubtably helped create).

As mentioned, no matter how many times you try and ridiculously refute in favor blanket nerfs, adjusting with a sledgehammer has clearly serves to run more players off than they serve to help. I personally recognize the game is entering into a new era and I’m willing to embrace new power levels, you simply just refuse change and argue ‘but meh balance’ while willfully ignoring the intentional changes and the obvious; all seemingly because this may affect your close knit dueling circle in Riften or something ego-related, I’m almost certain.

For the record, I’m happy to fill a pseudo-mantle of werewolf advocator if it means people like you can’t soapbox and spread misinformation and exaggerations just to achieve your pretty goals ‘for free’; also, once again thanks completely for destroying Relequen (strange flex, again) I guess so your weird sense of dueling pride is better maintained (can you go for Jerall’s, Marse, and Vat next… like actually though)

1) Yes, it does equate to nerfing everything else IF they are proven to be overperforming too much. Even if ZOS gave NB its full 25% crit damage + crit healing and 2000 spell damage class mastery values, a reworked DK with 39k HP and Pyrebrand + Wildfire passive, a 47k HP Sorc/Warden WW with 3 procs, or a stamsorc with 3 procs would still pull ahead.

2) Yes, balance in a wizard game matters to players. That is why I constantly create threads on the forums and voice my stance (obviously backed with hours of in-game data). I have also pin-pointed the key areas in which WW and DK needed adjustments (HP scaling heals for both DK and WW, and either sustain or access to class mastery passives).

And if you're confiding in the notion that "your characters should feel powerful", then I don't understand how my class, a Sorcecer who can tap into the immensely destructive power of lightning and dark magic to create thunderstorms and teleport around the battlefield at the speed of lightning, is somehow weaker or slower than a WW whose primary attacks are *** people to death. If anything, my class should be infinitely stronger than yours.

And I'm sorry, but an RPer shouldn't have any business participating in a PvP or PvE balance discussion where people are competing against each other.

1) No one expects a bump in masteries to fully close the gap (hence the term rework and not just numerical changes) yet I don’t want DK, wolf gutted to solve an ‘interim’ problem now just so I can get mediocre reworks down the line as well for other classes in the process.

Any increases to non-reworked classes would absolutely help in closing the gap and allow for more finesse with player skill. Additionally, every class should have a CoE level proc like sorc to further assist in bridging this gap.

2) you act as if this is going to stop people from running high health. It’s mandatory unless you reduce DK damage by basically half right now for the sheer amount of burst damage being outputted alone. With this being said- do I want DK gutted when it’s clear to me that reworked classes (or sorc due to masteries benefiting them skewed towards sustain alongside streak) can much better handle this when properly built? No.

Additionally, you quite literally and basically want werewolf to be unable to properly heal themselves at all from that incoming damage (‘one bar shouldn’t compete’ and ‘meme spec’, minutely reminder) so even with a solution like ‘wep and spell scaling’ under battle spirit- you’d want the absolute lowest values possible.

Sorc is still very strong right now (more so in OW) and the free cast damage you can outpoint at range with magical wards up is very high on a target that isn’t blocking.

Let’s be serious that in a magical world like this, you would NEVER want a werewolf to be close to you and lore-wise that werewolf would rip you apart (RP stuff of course), so yes… if you engage in extended combat with a werewolf then they’d probably do more damage to you than the other way around (not to mention you and I both know that werewolf performs far better with procs than without… so basically magical artifacts on top of that too)… hence tools like streak etc. to mitigate basically anything if used correctly.

1) When did I say gut DK and WW? I proposed 2 simple solutions that surgically adjust a specific overperforming aspect of each class, not blanket nerf everything. Unless...you're implying that removing the HP scaling heal from WW and nerfing DK's HoF sustain is gutting those classes?

And no, let's not give everyone CoE level proc. That passive should also be next on the list.

2) I'm not acting like people will suddenly lower their HP to sub 35k. That ship has sailed now that stat inflation is through the roof. The problem at hand is that the next class rework has been shifted back by several months, so to be frank, I have neither the patience nor excitement to wait for that update while DK, WW, and proc Sorc are still rampant. You hear that? MY OWN class needs adjustments, and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it isn't busted in some way or another.

3) ZOS can give WW more max WD, I don't really care. I just cannot be bothered fighting 40-45k+ HP WWs that require a full burst combo with all crit values just to hopefully kill them before they pop 1 skill and heal back to full in 2 GCDs. It's annoying, lame, and obnoxious to fight against.

4) If we go by lore, a WW would get instantly one shotted. I mean hello? A Sorc can literally summon lightning bolts and thunderstorms lol.

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

1) buff nb 0.o does not equate to nerf everything else

2) balance in a wizard game matters to players. My characters should feel powerful and there are an abundance of ways to fix problems or gaps other than nerfs which are basically your go to method of resolving, well anything. There were essentially NO werewolves prior to the rework likely because a playstyle that is meant to represent something powerful was woefully lacking in every department, that trickles down to even the most casual of players with RP (a place that your ‘one bar bad’ and ‘should be meme spec’ camp undoubtably helped create).

As mentioned, no matter how many times you try and ridiculously refute in favor blanket nerfs, adjusting with a sledgehammer has clearly serves to run more players off than they serve to help. I personally recognize the game is entering into a new era and I’m willing to embrace new power levels, you simply just refuse change and argue ‘but meh balance’ while willfully ignoring the intentional changes and the obvious; all seemingly because this may affect your close knit dueling circle in Riften or something ego-related, I’m almost certain.

For the record, I’m happy to fill a pseudo-mantle of werewolf advocator if it means people like you can’t soapbox and spread misinformation and exaggerations just to achieve your pretty goals ‘for free’; also, once again thanks completely for destroying Relequen (strange flex, again) I guess so your weird sense of dueling pride is better maintained (can you go for Jerall’s, Marse, and Vat next… like actually though)

1) Yes, it does equate to nerfing everything else IF they are proven to be overperforming too much. Even if ZOS gave NB its full 25% crit damage + crit healing and 2000 spell damage class mastery values, a reworked DK with 39k HP and Pyrebrand + Wildfire passive, a 47k HP Sorc/Warden WW with 3 procs, or a stamsorc with 3 procs would still pull ahead.

2) Yes, balance in a wizard game matters to players. That is why I constantly create threads on the forums and voice my stance (obviously backed with hours of in-game data). I have also pin-pointed the key areas in which WW and DK needed adjustments (HP scaling heals for both DK and WW, and either sustain or access to class mastery passives).

And if you're confiding in the notion that "your characters should feel powerful", then I don't understand how my class, a Sorcecer who can tap into the immensely destructive power of lightning and dark magic to create thunderstorms and teleport around the battlefield at the speed of lightning, is somehow weaker or slower than a WW whose primary attacks are *** people to death. If anything, my class should be infinitely stronger than yours.

And I'm sorry, but an RPer shouldn't have any business participating in a PvP or PvE balance discussion where people are competing against each other.

1) No one expects a bump in masteries to fully close the gap (hence the term rework and not just numerical changes) yet I don’t want DK, wolf gutted to solve an ‘interim’ problem now just so I can get mediocre reworks down the line as well for other classes in the process.

Any increases to non-reworked classes would absolutely help in closing the gap and allow for more finesse with player skill. Additionally, every class should have a CoE level proc like sorc to further assist in bridging this gap.

2) you act as if this is going to stop people from running high health. It’s mandatory unless you reduce DK damage by basically half right now for the sheer amount of burst damage being outputted alone. With this being said- do I want DK gutted when it’s clear to me that reworked classes (or sorc due to masteries benefiting them skewed towards sustain alongside streak) can much better handle this when properly built? No.

Additionally, you quite literally and basically want werewolf to be unable to properly heal themselves at all from that incoming damage (‘one bar shouldn’t compete’ and ‘meme spec’, minutely reminder) so even with a solution like ‘wep and spell scaling’ under battle spirit- you’d want the absolute lowest values possible.

Sorc is still very strong right now (more so in OW) and the free cast damage you can outpoint at range with magical wards up is very high on a target that isn’t blocking.

Let’s be serious that in a magical world like this, you would NEVER want a werewolf to be close to you and lore-wise that werewolf would rip you apart (RP stuff of course), so yes… if you engage in extended combat with a werewolf then they’d probably do more damage to you than the other way around (not to mention you and I both know that werewolf performs far better with procs than without… so basically magical artifacts on top of that too)… hence tools like streak etc. to mitigate basically anything if used correctly.

1) When did I say gut DK and WW? I proposed 2 simple solutions that surgically adjust a specific overperforming aspect of each class, not blanket nerf everything. Unless...you're implying that removing the HP scaling heal from WW and nerfing DK's HoF sustain is gutting those classes?

And no, let's not give everyone CoE level proc. That passive should also be next on the list.

2) I'm not acting like people will suddenly lower their HP to sub 35k. That ship has sailed now that stat inflation is through the roof. The problem at hand is that the next class rework has been shifted back by several months, so to be frank, I have neither the patience nor excitement to wait for that update while DK, WW, and proc Sorc are still rampant. You hear that? MY OWN class needs adjustments, and I'm not going to sit here and pretend that it isn't busted in some way or another.

3) ZOS can give WW more max WD, I don't really care. I just cannot be bothered fighting 40-45k+ HP WWs that require a full burst combo with all crit values to just to hopefully kill them before they pop 1 skill and heal back to full in 2 GCDs. It's annoying, lame, and obnoxious to fight against.

4) If we go by lore, a WW would get instantly one shotted. I mean hello? A Sorc can literally summon lightning bolts and thunderstorms lol.

1) Blanket nerfing werewolf healing would essentially gut it. I don’t have time to parse on every player I come across just to squeak out a kill, especially if I can’t sustain the ridiculous, potential damage offered by just two sets alone (Balorgh or Monomyth) that I can’t access or an ult I can’t access (Onslaught) in werewolf.

You have also stated you want it to be removed from masteries.

You have also stated you want it to do even less damage.

You specifically have stated you believe it ‘should not compete as it’s one-bar ‘ which defeats the entire purpose of the rework…

-in other words you say you don’t want it gutted in this reply yet request the opposite at every turn…

…your platform (‘meme spec’ camp) either at a minimum, does not care if it’s nerfed into oblivion as long as it disappears from sight OR at a maximum, would like to see it simply disappear completely and intentionally have it be non-viable again as you see it as an ‘optional playstyle’ not worthy of being competitive in any true fashion (which is egregiously malicious and copiously inconsiderate, I would add)

2) I have the patience if it means doing things correctly and being delicate. I still stand by the fact I see in no way their combat vision continues AND they nerf these in a capacity that would ‘make you content’ especially while not-opting to buff masteries specifically for the underperforming classes in PvP

3) They aren’t ‘unkillable’ on average and for an above average to good player, not being able to kill them outside of an ult is not remotely uncommon. Something being ‘annoying or obnoxious’ does not make it immediately deserving of harsh and restrictive nerfs, especially when so many other items in the game fulfill that same criteria with little to no effort (streak spam, shade, cloak without proper defects, and FAR more examples with sets/gear/skills)

4) this one is on RP alone (hence not entirely serious) but werewolves are ‘healthy beasts’ (very resilient) who are capable of slinging their prey around (example: the ‘slaughter’ synergy killcams in ESO as a very basic, on-the-surface reference). Meanwhile a canonical sorc is likely to be in anything from ‘light armor’ to basic clothes (I.E. the equivalent to ‘tissue paper’ for a werewolf).

My werewolf would likely rip someone like that apart, especially my wolf who (maybe aside from soul gem/rez mechanics) is essentially a longstanding veteran/not-your-average-wolf by that logic (as many wouldn’t be either given that you start out as an ‘adventurer’/‘Soul Shriven’ and vestige (depending on interpretation) first before ever becoming a werewolf

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Combat and Class balance is something that affects all facets of the game, from the most casual of overland questing to hypersweaty PvP. Leaving that to languish for any length of time will only serve to drive more and more people away. This is especially obvious from the recent surprise Vengeance test - Vengeance as it currently is was running fine and had a population that enjoyed it as is, so the Combat Team taking time away from the Refreshes to focus on modifying that mode (especially in a way that removed what its main userbase enjoyed to try in vain to entice a userbase that wants nothing to do with it) seemed like a case of skewed priorities.

Hey all, related to the above, while we aren't going go into specifics (and I recognize that's disappointing), the class refresh schedule change is not due to anything the Combat Team is or will be working on. Vengeance work is unrelated.

If its something that can change, or if things can be shifted, it really should be considered. I just hope you guys understand the damage that will be done this year with a lack of this refresh. Among other things.

Like i said in another comment, ill play regardless, to some extent. Its disappointing, but not something im going to quit over. The biggest disappointment to me is what i know will come with a lack of content, trial, and the class refresh that so many people want more than anything. And what is going to come is an overall decline in players. Which absolutely sucks, and is the complete opposite of what this game needs.

The things that some people at zos think are going to be enough, to hold people over til next year, are just not going to cut it. But i hope im wrong. Id love players numbers to skyrocket, but amidst all this chaos and disappointment, i just dont see any outcome other than the opposite.

Just wanted to clarify what Jess meant here. She simply wanted to note that PvP (Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, Vengeance) and the combat team as a whole are not at fault for the delay. They are actively working on what they can for the combat refresh as we speak. One thing to remind folks is that development of features or revamping of features is not solely on one team. There are a pipeline of teams that need to touch the product before it can be complete (examples: art, animation, audio, narrative, etc.). So we're working on getting more hands freed up from various teams as they wrap up existing immediate items to assist with other parts of the pipeline.

Also, we want to note that the Community Team has been banging the drum internally on how important the combat refresh is to the community overall. So the teams are aware and doing the best they can to get them done and done right.

I appreciate the clarification and response.

The thing is Kevin, we are asking for more explanation on what happened before the layoffs that resulted in uncertainty around the Warden. It feels like a conscious decision to avoid that question.

Giving us that background is honestly the least ZOS could do right now, especially when you are asking us to wait even more. You (ZOS) need to be far more direct about the Warden, and then the workings of the class refresh. The very real concern many of us have is the delay behind the Warden will happen with other classes, stretching this refresh process over many years.

Just coming here and saying you can’t go into specifics isn’t helpful, I am sorry. I’m not blaming you or Jess, but the teams need to understand that. It feels like they are unwilling to move.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Lagzee wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Combat and Class balance is something that affects all facets of the game, from the most casual of overland questing to hypersweaty PvP. Leaving that to languish for any length of time will only serve to drive more and more people away. This is especially obvious from the recent surprise Vengeance test - Vengeance as it currently is was running fine and had a population that enjoyed it as is, so the Combat Team taking time away from the Refreshes to focus on modifying that mode (especially in a way that removed what its main userbase enjoyed to try in vain to entice a userbase that wants nothing to do with it) seemed like a case of skewed priorities.

Hey all, related to the above, while we aren't going go into specifics (and I recognize that's disappointing), the class refresh schedule change is not due to anything the Combat Team is or will be working on. Vengeance work is unrelated.

If its something that can change, or if things can be shifted, it really should be considered. I just hope you guys understand the damage that will be done this year with a lack of this refresh. Among other things.

Like i said in another comment, ill play regardless, to some extent. Its disappointing, but not something im going to quit over. The biggest disappointment to me is what i know will come with a lack of content, trial, and the class refresh that so many people want more than anything. And what is going to come is an overall decline in players. Which absolutely sucks, and is the complete opposite of what this game needs.

The things that some people at zos think are going to be enough, to hold people over til next year, are just not going to cut it. But i hope im wrong. Id love players numbers to skyrocket, but amidst all this chaos and disappointment, i just dont see any outcome other than the opposite.

Just wanted to clarify what Jess meant here. She simply wanted to note that PvP (Cyrodiil, Battlegrounds, Vengeance) and the combat team as a whole are not at fault for the delay. They are actively working on what they can for the combat refresh as we speak. One thing to remind folks is that development of features or revamping of features is not solely on one team. There are a pipeline of teams that need to touch the product before it can be complete (examples: art, animation, audio, narrative, etc.). So we're working on getting more hands freed up from various teams as they wrap up existing immediate items to assist with other parts of the pipeline.

Also, we want to note that the Community Team has been banging the drum internally on how important the combat refresh is to the community overall. So the teams are aware and doing the best they can to get them done and done right.

Ya i understand what she was saying, i was just reiterating how bad many of us think this will be for the game over this next year. And how I really hope its being prioritized. But its good to hear that the message is being relayed, and that the team understands how important this refresh is for the game/players at the moment. And the trial to a similar extent.

I also know you guys cant just snap your fingers and make things happen, of course. I think many people, myself included, are extremely confused as to why the warden refresh, that was seemingly so close, is now apparently so far away, but maybe it just wasnt as close as it seemed.

Regardless i appreciate the insight, and reassurance, as im sure many people do. With everything happening its awesome to see that the communication is still good, so thanks for that as well.

Kickimanjaro wrote: »

For the Class and Combat refresh, we are targeting 2027 for the next refresh. However, we are discussing some interim options for the classes still awaiting their full refresh to improve your player experience in the meantime.

Ah, ok, so that explains the lack of Warden mentions earlier.

Actually it doesn’t. According to the old roadmap the Warden refresh should have happened in about a month’s time from now at the end of summer/beginning of fall (with the Sorcerer refresh shortly thereafter at the end of fall/beginning of winter) which should have meant it was almost ready. The fact that it’s not can mean one of two things: (1) that they knew these layoffs were coming a long time ago and effectively halted work long before the official announcement; or (2) the initial roadmap was always just aspirational and they weren’t going to meet the deadlines they laid out in it anyway. Neither of these inspires confidence and makes me think I made the right decision is canceling my subscription after all this came to light. Regardless of what they say in these carefully prepared statements the game is clearly no longer a priority for the studio and it shows. I for one have no desire to reward that decision with my money.

Aliyavana wrote: »

FlipFlopFrog wrote: »

You're a billion dollar company.

ESO is your flagship game.

It brings in tens of millions a month.

And a planned class refresh is pushed back for an entire year? really guys?

I think the thing that frustrates me about these kind of newsletters is that they tell us their decision to push back the class refresh but there’s no real depth to why that decision has been made. I'm not saying we need a deep dive into the in's and outs of it all but it would be nice to know a little bit more of why exactly it's been pushed back so far. ZoS clearly has resources, why are they not being spent on giving the players what they actually want? And more importantly what you promised us?

Really disappointing.

A huge portion of them got laid off. They are working with less people.

So? Honestly, not our problem. And my sympathy has run dry as it's not my job as a customer to excuse everything a company does.