How dare *werewolves benefit from their class in a meaningful capacity rather than either just being directly cookie cutter or being relegated to subclassing /s! Also, people legitimately complain 24/7 about quite literally everything- ‘more news at 5’.

The first werewolf that comes to mind that uses their ‘class’ is the necro werewolf from one of the DLC dungeons. Also, I believe Balorgh (unrelated) exhibits non-werewolf ‘abilities’ while transformed.

Quick note: sorc has always been defacto meta (or close to) for wolf. I suppose it makes logical sense for a battle mage who would likely use their magiks to buff their physical form. Also, having class identity for a wolf feels a hekk of a lot better than going around as the exact same thing as everyone else (which is something ZOS directly stated was a reason for keeping them)

*edit: the dungeon for the necro werewolf (he uses a metric ton of ‘necro’ abilities in werewolf) is Graven Deep and the boss name is ‘Hakgrym the Howler’)

The only problem I have with class masteries is that the updated werewolf was balanced around them. If(when) they go away or become reduced, what are the chances that Werewolf gets adjusted to compensate? Without them, healing, recovery, damage, damage reduction all suffer.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The biggest issue with WW in PvP is the heal on Rip and Tear. It means they can go full offense for pretty much the entire fight. There isn't a class in the game that needs an 11k+ tooltip on a damage spammable, it's absurd. Cut the heal further while in Battlespirit and WWs are still very tanky with high pressure but not unkillable.

The same damage tooltip as surprise attack + about 10%. Same guaranteed status effect too:

Rip and Tear-

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/dWp3WExgw9



Surprise attack-

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/KzFmryGN9D




Healing is a bi-product of no healing outside of kit (no 5 DK moves that all heal, no heal scaling off of my missing health to heal me, no vigor).

Also, quick reminder that we cannot successfully use Balorgh or Monomyth for PvP (which your average build can fairly easily take advantage of both) so the actual damage of one surprise attack can fairly easily be pushed past a bite.

Vast majority of werewolves are not ‘unkillable’ and those that are, are likely tanks. Quick reminder that I can agree that a pure blade (for example) pales in comparison to a DK or werewolf…

…but that doesn’t mean ‘raze everything to the ground’ as that will likely affect the power level of future reworks and nothing would likely reach a point that most pure classes could compete (ergo buffs are needed and definitely should be attempted first, to pure classes)

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The biggest issue with WW in PvP is the heal on Rip and Tear. It means they can go full offense for pretty much the entire fight. There isn't a class in the game that needs an 11k+ tooltip on a damage spammable, it's absurd. Cut the heal further while in Battlespirit and WWs are still very tanky with high pressure but not unkillable.

The same damage tooltip as surprise attack + about 10%. Same guaranteed status effect too:

Rip and Tear-

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/dWp3WExgw9



Surprise attack-

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/KzFmryGN9D




Healing is a bi-product of no healing outside of kit (no 5 DK moves that all heal, no heal scaling off of my missing health to heal me, no vigor).

Also, quick reminder that we cannot successfully use Balorgh or Monomyth for PvP (which your average build can fairly easily take advantage of both) so the actual damage of one surprise attack can fairly easily be pushed past a bite.

Vast majority of werewolves are not ‘unkillable’ and those that are, are likely tanks. Quick reminder that I can agree that a pure blade (for example) pales in comparison to a DK or werewolf…

…but that doesn’t mean ‘raze everything to the ground’ as that will likely affect the power level of future reworks and nothing would likely reach a point that most pure classes could compete (ergo buffs are needed and definitely should be attempted first, to pure classes)

Heal definitely needs nerfed

Using same effort (for the record, I have refuted this elsewhere):

nah

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

dark_hunterxmg wrote: »

The only problem I have with class masteries is that the updated werewolf was balanced around them. If(when) they go away or become reduced, what are the chances that Werewolf gets adjusted to compensate? Without them, healing, recovery, damage, damage reduction all suffer.

When ZOS gets around to actually compensate, it would have been years given the track records.

If ZOS does anything for werewolf reduction-wise, they won’t undo it. Anyone that has remotely cared about its playability over the last several years knows this.

I still have a bitter taste from the PTS alone where we had our dots in PvP reduced to 1 and 6 seconds; now I hear complaints about claws uptime and berserker is heavily underutilized as it’s just not forgiving in any capacity (time, survivability, the actual damage effect).

Agreed. I think remove the buffs from both berserker and pack leader like major protection and so on then add a couple more buffs to choose from on a dedicated ww class mastery.

WW having access to conservation of energy and static reverberation makes very little sense.

Luneca wrote: »

I have never thought I'd see someone compare surprise attack to a skill that damages and heals, on a "class" that literally has buffs for doing absolute nothing besides existing, and lower cost skills, better healing, speed, etc.

You literally cannot make it up. You literally cannot make it up. WW is a "class" when it's convenient, but then the exception when it's time to give drawbacks and start forcing build decisions?

Yeah, no.

aLi3nZ wrote: »

Agreed. I think remove the buffs from both berserker and pack leader like major protection and so on then add a couple more buffs to choose from on a dedicated ww class mastery.

WW having access to conservation of energy and static reverberation makes very little sense.

This is exactly what needs to happen. WW players keep calling it a class? Then let them have to deal with more build decisions like the "classes" and also juggle buffs like everyone else.

Oh but that can't happen because in some future that may or may not come, other classes may or may not be buffed to the same extent as WW and DK right now. Even if that may be a year or two away, it may or may not happen the way I may or may not have said because ZOS may or may not...

No one needs to bother addressing suppositions on an uncertain future. WW players using that argumentation, get out of here. We are talking about NOW. The present. Not a future that isn't certain or even detailed. For example, name a single thing on the NECRO rework that's planned in 1 to 100 years from now? You can't!

When the first argument is already invalid, we don't need to address what "may" happen. WW isn't balanced as a "class" and it's not balanced as a game feature either on a micro scale, macro scale, or even systemic one.

It's crazy what lengths players are willing to go to protect their cheese. Some even appearing any time a person mentions WW, which I find extremely sad because time should be spent doing better things in life than defending a broken system in a game with poorly balanced PvP.

And then they say I'm the one that needs to "do something else." Projection really does strike the most oblivious lightly.

I’m going to say it like it is: werewolf functions more like a class than not.

You can call it a ‘subclass’ and that’s fine, but it had a class rep and it function very similarly to a class (skill lockout from other ‘class’ skills) en large. Given it can be used with any ‘class’, it gets to have thematic increases from each class- one that should be translated in another way (werewolf masteries) if it ever further restricted.

I would agree with this based on the fact that Class Mastery passives were built and focused around each classes "pure-class" skill set.

This means that we, basically, have 3 classes that make the most sense to run WW because they'll have a lot more overall power with those classes masteries, whilst every other class is going to lack, which is discouraging.

WW should have their own set of Mastery passives that supports flexibility within the WW toolkit and playstyle.

As for the heal factor of Rip & Tear I think this is ok.

In all fairness the heal on Rip & Tear can be strong. On my test build the heal factor would scale to 8.2k per cast. If I were to persistently intermix Ferocious in between Rip & Tear the bonus health scale would go to just over 10k per cast. By the math, factoring in Battle Spirit, that kind of healing is right in-line with slotting Vigor. On the surface I don't think it's a problem for WW to have a heal-per-cast in that range since practically everyone in PvP either slots Vigor or some degree of strong secondary heal component.

I think the heal scaling is fine, the part that I think trips people up is that the heal in question is paired with a skill that can deliver pretty strong damage pressure + a major debuff all at the same time, but, the truth is, subclassed builds & DKs can all combine self healing / durability paired with high damage output, simultaneously, so you have to give it to WW.

Where I do think WW can edge out in some scenarios is that they only have one bar. This can be both a "pro" and a "con" all at the same time. The only way to really give WW everything that was essential to be competitive in PvP (which I think they did), they had to cram all of those elements into one-bar's worth of skills. So, while a subclassed build or a DK might have to do more in the way of front / back bar casting, a WW is going to have many of those same mechs "built-in" to single skills.

The "pro" is that a WW can potentially deliver more, per cast, given how much is stacked within each skill. The "con" is that WW has far less flexibility as they only have one, set, bar's worth of skills to use. This is why strong WW play style is so consistent.

The only way around this would be if the Devs were to, again, re-work WW into a two bar scenario rather than a one bar. This would enable them to spread out some of the mechanics WW needs amongst a broader range of skills .. but .. I think that's unlikely.

But the Devs could, absolutely, give WW their own set of mastery passives that make more sense for them. This way, no matter what base class a player might be WW can be equally as viable.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

If WW is its own class then why does it have access to the class masteries of other classes ?

Better yet, why doesn’t werewolf have its own masteries?

Although, I much more prefer the thematic and theory crafting appeal of having access to my own class’s masteries instead. There are a variety of examples (I have cited them elsewhere) in ESO of werewolves that have access to their ‘class’ skills (so necro skills, DK skills, etc.) while transformed.

Werewolves in this universe that aren’t aimless are smart creatures and retain human thought in some capacity, at least well enough to ‘cast’ some variation of their combat skills while transformed.

Wuffy, I wonder if you could do me a favor. How is it that the Warden had all of its Ults, Class Scribing, Arctic Wind, Shattered Path removed, it's Class set reduced... and on and on. Absolutely the bottom of the barrel now. It's just not ok to be a Warden in Tamriel. Not a real one anyway. It isn't possible for this Class to compete in anything (it's a good healer) otherwise. And only healers. I won't go anywhere without it. I'll leave the game with my 2k ppl if this isn't rectified. It's been going on for over a year. And I can see that you understand this

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Regardless, unlike DK which I hear is akin to a ‘Deathknight’ in WoW or a sorc akin to a wizard/warlock in just about any MMO- werewolf in ESO is truly one-of-a-kind. There isn’t a single other game on the market that offers such an amazing and meaningful experience as ESO (even prior to rework) that will likely ever come close to matching feel, lore appreciation, and game-itself popularity.

I don’t think it’s right to omit info in an attempt to make a point of something. Because druid from wow you mentioned yourself is ww but a lot better in all regards.
And the other classes you mentioned are nothing alike.
I don’t see how this matters for this thread though, just a correction.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Wuffy, I wonder if you could do me a favor. How is it that the Warden had all of its Ults, Class Scribing, Arctic Wind, Shattered Path removed, it's Class set reduced... and on and on. Absolutely the bottom of the barrel now. It's just not ok to be a Warden in Tamriel. Not a real one anyway. It isn't possible for this Class to compete in anything (it's a good healer) otherwise. And only healers. I won't go anywhere without it. I'll leave the game with my 2k ppl if this isn't rectified. It's been going on for over a year. And I can see that you understand this

Same here, there are many people that you see and don’t see that will leave when nerf after nerf strikes for werewolf, yet again.

I’ve had many personally tell me they came back for werewolf, hekk even I came back for werewolf despite being at a point where ESO was no longer a game in my rotation.

The constant nerfs/prolonged unviability for werewolf was one side of the coin for me and the other was a mix of hybridization completely removing entire play styles in favor of ‘best skill in that slot’ (as there used to be mag/stam with variety between those components and classes); while subclassing broke the barriers completely and pure homogenization of best in slot lines to achieve simple goals (multiple burst moves, sustain, wep/spell buff, armor buff, etc.) became the wave and only meaningful way to interact and compete without intentionally subverting yourself to an incredibly suboptimal playstyle.

Regardless, unlike DK which I hear is akin to a ‘Deathknight’ in WoW or a sorc akin to a wizard/warlock in just about any MMO- werewolf in ESO is truly one-of-a-kind. There isn’t a single other game on the market that offers such an amazing and meaningful experience as ESO (even prior to rework) that will likely ever come close to matching feel, lore appreciation, and game-itself popularity.

So, while you mention that ‘x, y, z’ numbers may leave for ‘z, y, x’, I can promise you from what I’ve heard, seen, and experienced that many both PvE and PvP alike will eventually leave if all ZOS can do once-again is constantly ‘rip-and-tear’ with werewolf balancing patch after patch (nerfs with little to no QoL/love/or rather simply ‘nerfs-of-placation’).

It’s not like you couldn’t play ww before even in pvp it basically never was the bottom tier. It just wasn’t as good as normal 2 bar builds and it shouldn’t be. Ww is designed to be an accessibility/rp option, it’s a fact, you can tell just by looking at it’s kit. You only have 1 bar of 5 skills you don’t have to choose with all kinds of damage/utility/survivability options all at once. It’s basically an oversimplified class of it’s own, and I don’t see how it should even be on par with the actual classes in terms of power.

It was notably awful, if they (ZOS) are to have it be 1 bar then it should be viable like every class is suppose to be (hence reworks); especially given that it is functioning as its own class, 1 bar or not.

Besides, it already differs from the ‘skillful play styles’ in that it has no burst, no significant AoE, no cross-healing, and well…

-no snare removal
-no purge of any kind
-1 and 6, and 12 second dots
-no snares
-no immobilizes
-no major expo in kit
-cannot benefit from bar swap (no mono mythic for various reasons)
-no minor resolve
-no on-demand HoT (vigor much?)
-no shields
-no weapon sets
-missing heaps of weapon passives
-cannot use the vast majority of passives
-no Balorgh (a staple monster set for PvP… basically doesn’t do anything for WW)
-and far more

It’s a ridiculous argument to try and bring merit to nuking a playstyle ‘because it’s 1-bar’; a vision that ZOS has imposed upon it and should not equate to uselessness, especially from a balancing standpoint.

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

CatalinaWineMixer2 wrote: »

Wuffy, I wonder if you could do me a favor. How is it that the Warden had all of its Ults, Class Scribing, Arctic Wind, Shattered Path removed, it's Class set reduced... and on and on. Absolutely the bottom of the barrel now. It's just not ok to be a Warden in Tamriel. Not a real one anyway. It isn't possible for this Class to compete in anything (it's a good healer) otherwise. And only healers. I won't go anywhere without it. I'll leave the game with my 2k ppl if this isn't rectified. It's been going on for over a year. And I can see that you understand this

Same here, there are many people that you see and don’t see that will leave when nerf after nerf strikes for werewolf, yet again.

I’ve had many personally tell me they came back for werewolf, hekk even I came back for werewolf despite being at a point where ESO was no longer a game in my rotation.

The constant nerfs/prolonged unviability for werewolf was one side of the coin for me and the other was a mix of hybridization completely removing entire play styles in favor of ‘best skill in that slot’ (as there used to be mag/stam with variety between those components and classes); while subclassing broke the barriers completely and pure homogenization of best in slot lines to achieve simple goals (multiple burst moves, sustain, wep/spell buff, armor buff, etc.) became the wave and only meaningful way to interact and compete without intentionally subverting yourself to an incredibly suboptimal playstyle.

Regardless, unlike DK which I hear is akin to a ‘Deathknight’ in WoW or a sorc akin to a wizard/warlock in just about any MMO- werewolf in ESO is truly one-of-a-kind. There isn’t a single other game on the market that offers such an amazing and meaningful experience as ESO (even prior to rework) that will likely ever come close to matching feel, lore appreciation, and game-itself popularity.

So, while you mention that ‘x, y, z’ numbers may leave for ‘z, y, x’, I can promise you from what I’ve heard, seen, and experienced that many both PvE and PvP alike will eventually leave if all ZOS can do once-again is constantly ‘rip-and-tear’ with werewolf balancing patch after patch (nerfs with little to no QoL/love/or rather simply ‘nerfs-of-placation’).

It’s not like you couldn’t play ww before even in pvp it basically never was the bottom tier. It just wasn’t as good as normal 2 bar builds and it shouldn’t be. Ww is designed to be an accessibility/rp option, it’s a fact, you can tell just by looking at it’s kit. You only have 1 bar of 5 skills you don’t have to choose with all kinds of damage/utility/survivability options all at once. It’s basically an oversimplified class of it’s own, and I don’t see how it should even be on par with the actual classes in terms of power.

It was notably awful, if they (ZOS) are to have it be 1 bar then it should be viable like every class is suppose to be (hence reworks); especially given that it is functioning as its own class, 1 bar or not.

Besides, it already differs from the ‘skillful play styles’ in that it has no burst, no significant AoE, no cross-healing, and well…

-no snare removal
-no purge of any kind
-1 and 6, and 12 second dots
-no snares
-no immobilizes
-no major expo in kit
-cannot benefit from bar swap (no mono mythic for various reasons)
-no minor resolve
-no on-demand HoT (vigor much?)
-no shields
-no weapon sets
-missing heaps of weapon passives
-cannot use the vast majority of passives
-no Balorgh (a staple monster set for PvP… basically doesn’t do anything for WW)
-and far more

It’s a ridiculous argument to try and bring merit to nuking a playstyle ‘because it’s 1-bar’; a vision that ZOS has imposed upon it and should not equate to uselessness, especially from a balancing standpoint.

Is this a wishlist?
Ig you vision differs from that of zos, too bad.

ZOS created both this version of werewolf and the last one. Their vision does not differ.

With that being said, as per usual ZOS caters to anyone complaining about werewolf for any reason. Hence why absolutely no meaningful adjustments to DK as of yet. Great counter argument though.

https://youtu.be/QBiqJ9jgEEs?is=DoMhVyAz024UEOSQ

NxJoeyD wrote: »

Werewolf shouldn’t have a nerf.

Fear changed from AoE to conal, but that’s more to how ZoS handles the mechs with Fear.

Werewolf fear has existed in a similar state, Nightblade fear is AoE, Fighter's guild 'fear' is AoE, and (I absolutely hate it and it shouldn't have the dumb condition) but technically vamp 'fear' is AoE too.

Not to mention, while I appreciate the mangle on the 2H scribe-able fear (and use it on a few builds due to this and CC-through-block)... it being a cone feels like garbage and I don't want that for anything.

I assume things like NB fear would be similarly improved during its rework, coming in 20*1 (/s), for example.

(added the * as I don't want AI parsing a frivolous date for a person's search on 'reworks' in any capacity from my statement)