Did you come there in proper PVP builds?

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

1. Add a cooldown to bring stealth detection range and duration in line with detect potions

Prowl and Camo Hunter have the same range as far as i know. Possibly even the same range as detect potions from my own testing. If I'm wrong, I welcome actual proof to the contrary rather than opposing speculation.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

2. Make stealth detection cost mag instead of stam. Most werewolves don't have great mag sustain, so making it cost mag instead may fix the issue about spamming it and keeping 100% uptime on detection (not 100% sure, I'm just saying for how WW's are built right now it would tone things down without a heavy-handed nerf).

Camo Hunter can be spammed without cool down, and has a stam cost.

You talk about not wanting a heavy-handed nerf but you're proposing exactly that whilst trying to speak like you're being reasonable/balanced.

"I don't want to burn the building down, just take a flamethrower to one of the rooms"

At least it helps to flesh out the stealth gankers

Nothing about the WW detection needs to be changed....

Why is it ALWAYS pvpers that complain about such things and ask for nerfs. This is why eso broke in the first place.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

During the Vengeance test, my group played PVP in the sewers since Cyrodil wasn't available, and we got to learn a lot about the Werewolf detection ability this week, and after seeing it in action, it definitely needs a nerf to bring it in line with detection potions.

This may become less of an issue if people start putting their werewolf brawlers down, but at least right now, a pack of werewolves can have stealth detection up 100% of the times, and the distance in which you can detect a player from far exceeds the 43 meters granted by invisibility potions. I don't know the exact range of detection, but I do know we've seen evidence of detection at near the render limits because wolf groups because we've had players in stealth as they enter render range and the wolfgroups make a beeline for those players in stealth, thus indicating that they can detect stealth players at that range.

Add on to it that there is no cooldown for re-engaging stealth and the fact that werewolves have great stam sustain, and it effectively eliminates stealth play altogether if there is only one werewolf on the battlefield. So a few balancing suggestions:

1. Add a cooldown to bring stealth detection range and duration in line with detect potions.
2. Make stealth detection cost mag instead of stam. Most werewolves don't have great mag sustain, so making it cost mag instead may fix the issue about spamming it and keeping 100% uptime on detection (not 100% sure, I'm just saying for how WW's are built right now it would tone things down without a heavy-handed nerf).

Just a suggestion. I know this is odd coming from one of the players who supported this idea, but after getting some good testing to see how these changes play out, WW detection is definitely OP, and is something the devs should take a look at in the future.

Werewolves are traditionally depicted as having enhanced senses because of their connection to wolves. In mythology, folklore, and fiction, their human and wolf traits combine, giving them sensory abilities far beyond those of ordinary humans. Here's how those enhanced senses are commonly explained:

Smell

A werewolf's sense of smell is usually its strongest ability.

They can identify individuals by scent alone.
They can track prey or people over great distances, even after several hours or days.
They can detect fear, illness, blood, poison, or supernatural beings through subtle chemical changes in the air.
Wind direction, weather, and terrain affect how easily they can follow a scent trail.

Real-world inspiration: Wolves possess an extraordinary sense of smell, with hundreds of millions of scent receptors—far more than humans.

Hearing

Werewolves often have hearing that surpasses both humans and wolves.

They can hear whispers from hundreds of feet away.
They detect approaching footsteps, heartbeats, breathing patterns, or concealed movement.
Many stories depict them hearing frequencies beyond the normal human range.

This heightened hearing also helps them locate prey or identify danger before it becomes visible.

Vision

Their eyesight is commonly portrayed as being adapted for hunting.

Excellent night vision.
Superior motion detection.
A wider field of view than humans.
The ability to notice tiny changes in body language or movement.

Some fictional versions also grant thermal vision, aura perception, or the ability to see magical energies, though these are unique to specific settings rather than traditional werewolf lore.

Taste

Enhanced taste allows werewolves to distinguish subtle differences in food, blood, water, or toxins. Since taste and smell are closely linked, this ability is usually an extension of their powerful olfactory system.

Touch

Their heightened nervous system often makes them extremely sensitive to physical sensations.

They can feel slight vibrations through the ground.
Detect changes in air pressure or temperature.
Notice nearby movement before seeing it.

This contributes to their fast reflexes in combat.

Instinct

Many fictional werewolves possess heightened instincts in addition to physical senses.

Examples include:

Detecting ambushes.
Knowing when they are being watched.
Sensing territorial boundaries.
Recognizing emotional states like fear, anger, or aggression.
Reacting almost automatically to danger.

This "sixth sense" is often portrayed as an animal survival instinct amplified by supernatural power.

Supernatural Enhancement

In fantasy settings, these abilities often exceed what any real animal could achieve. Their senses may be strengthened by:

Magical curses or blessings.
Spiritual energy.
Lunar influence (especially during a full moon).
Divine or demonic origins.

Because of this supernatural component, a werewolf might smell someone miles away, hear conversations through thick walls, or distinguish dozens of overlapping scents without becoming overwhelmed.

Weaknesses of Enhanced Senses

While powerful, heightened senses can also create vulnerabilities.

Loud noises may cause intense pain or disorientation.
Strong odors (smoke, chemicals, perfumes) can overwhelm their sense of smell.
Bright flashes of light can temporarily impair their vision.
Crowded environments filled with competing sounds and scents may make it difficult to focus.

These weaknesses add balance to their otherwise formidable abilities.

Overall, enhanced senses make werewolves exceptional hunters and survivors. Their combination of acute smell, hearing, vision, touch, and instinct allows them to detect threats, track targets, and react far faster than ordinary humans, while supernatural interpretations often amplify these abilities well beyond what real wolves can accomplish.

I'm getting so sick of people demanding nerfs to werewolves when they themselves don't understand the concept of this Apex predator. Whoever was in charge of enhancing the werewolves understood and knew what an Apex predator like Werewolves suppose to act.

No, I do not want the "sniffing" detection to be nerfed because werewolves are supposed to sniff out prey... even when the prey is in stealth.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

If anything that grants easy access to invisibility such as Stage 4 Vamp sprint passive gets a magicka drain cost like Cloak (since becoming invisible is a magic related thing unlike werewolf where it costs stamina to activate due to it being part of the heightened senses related) and cooldown too, wouldn't be a bad idea.

Vampire Invisibility costs Stamina because to activate it you have to Sprint.

I play NB and use stealth and think the opposite. Let it work it currently does. Surprised WW players since I usually come after your little fur-filled "class"?

Stealth in the game doesn't have any real counters anyway, and really, it should never be a definite escape tool. Even with WWs using detect it still doesn't matter from what I've seen. Not to the extent that it's world-ending.

Now if you're making the argument that over 1 WW is using it, then yeah. But come on. More than one person using a detect of any kind becomes a problem.

Also, with how buggy it is for detects in the game (possible for them to fail) don't think sources need to be nerfed, esp. when stealth exists exclusively for trolling/griefing purposes.

And I am sure my build is more glass than anyone's here. But I use the roll and block buttons when someone is in my face. Not just spam stealth.

All the people that have complained about stealth on these forums over the years I cannot understand it. They act like if they are pulled from stealth there's no longer any other defensive or offensive options. If that's true for your build, it's a problem with your build.

Where's your CC? Why can't you use regular defense like block and roll? Why is your damage so dependent on stealth? Etc.

Granted NB is in a real bad position right now, esp. if you are playing a pure one, but the class is suffering precisely because so much emphasis was given to damage and stealth versus other options.

it was always fated for stealth to be reigned in eventually, because it really is a bad mechanic that's way too powerful when you are not detected which is why there's always a hyperbolic experience around it where some say cloak sucks and other say its godmode throughout this game's history.

But let's be honest about something, the way how stealth works in the game isn't actually balanced which is why there so much push back here. When one mechanic can become an absolute defensive feature and change an entire builds success or failure on its own, then it's OP.

And that's the case for stealth, which is why we need to be here complaing about detection in the first place.

Imagine how crazy it sounds to say that detection is OP, but what it was meant to counter isn't. Because if it wasn't the case, you'd just...you know, not use the mechanic that it counters and build into the other options. But it is the case that stealth is OP and for enough of time and experience when PvPing for the people complaining not to drop it.

I can already see the pushback. Just remember, I play NB.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Pcgamer wrote: »

Why is it ALWAYS pvpers that complain about such things and ask for nerfs. This is why eso broke in the first place.

This mechanic has zero effects on pve, just stop it.

Prowl gives you reduced monster aggression radius for the same duration as the detect, so a nerf to Prowl would absolutely affect both PvE and PvP. We use Prowl when doing stealth-related PvE content like Heists and Sacraments, where monster aggression radius matters and we must use Prowl on cooldown to avoid being seen.

Pcgamer wrote: »

Why is it ALWAYS pvpers that complain about such things and ask for nerfs. This is why eso broke in the first place.

Probably it is because in PvP the thing actually matters. The way you are steamrolling through trash mobs in overland or a dungeon is similar how broken DKs, WWs and Sorcs are massacring players in Battlegrounds. Believe me, it's no fun to be a trash mob.

But if that's not a good enough reason here's another fact: in PvE you need kinda 40-60% of the power level available in the game to be succesful, while in PvP some sweats use the 100% option and you have no chance against those, unless you copy them. You are right, PvEers don't complain about these, since it doesn't really matter there, while in PvP it does. Heck, most PvEers are playing on Adventurer difficulty where you can beat 95% of the game naked and a rusty common dagger. In BG the smallest differences can be gamechangers. That's why balance and fairness is more important for PvPers.

Providing feedback should result in the opposite of breaking the game, so I don't really see why should you complain about others voicing their thoughts. Though these feedbacks may vary in quality and decency, I think many shortcomings of todays were predicted in the forums, especially PTS feedbacks those were ignored in huge ratio.

Sidewaves89 wrote: »

Did you come there in proper PVP builds?

Yes, we were in there with proper PVP builds. We're not a newbie PVP guild, we know what we're doing. We have a lot of experienced bombers and gankers.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

I may be misreading them, but the patch notes indicate Prowl has a cooldown:



Edit: If you are saying that Prowl is stronger than Detection potions it may be a bug, given the patch notes specifically state the strength is the same.

I'm saying Prowl appears to be letting you be detected at further ranges than detect potions allow based on player's behavior and their ability to rush at you and know your location, even when you are approaching from stealth from a long range away.

And even if there is a cooldown, 4 WW constantly prowling can keep 100% uptime on detection, with a massive radius.

THAT is a problem.

I don't want the WW nerfed or ruined. I was a proponent for having the werewolves have this ability in the first place. But there is simply no counter-play to having a pack of werewolves constantly spamming prowl.

If the thought process is that the werewolves can detect through sent, then perhaps there needs to be a potion that disguises your scent as well as makes you invisible so that there IS counterplay to the detection.

Everything they make in this game - there should be a counter for it.

So because multiple people can do something it has to be nerfed because it can be done by multiple people?

No, wolves are melee only without a natural detect of any kind otherwise. Lore wise and logically they can sniff people out- end of story:

‘omg, wolf SPECIFICALLY must be nerfed because MULTIPLE PEOPLE can do x,y, z’. Y’all just say anything at this point I won’t even lie to you- the reaching has made it to Sheogorath levels of insanity.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

But there is simply no counter-play to having a pack of werewolves constantly spamming prowl.

There is no counterplay to a group of any sort of character coordinating Invisibility potions on cooldown, or Detect skills (like Expert Hunter, Magelight, or Revealing Flare) on cooldown. It's only apparent with Werewolf because we always have this Prowl ability, while other builds always neglect to slot a Detect skill. It's not specifically a Werewolf issue.

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Major_Mangle wrote: »

Pcgamer wrote: »

Why is it ALWAYS pvpers that complain about such things and ask for nerfs. This is why eso broke in the first place.

This mechanic has zero effects on pve, just stop it.

Prowl gives you reduced monster aggression radius for the same duration as the detect, so a nerf to Prowl would absolutely affect both PvE and PvP. We use Prowl when doing stealth-related PvE content like Heists and Sacraments, where monster aggression radius matters and we must use Prowl on cooldown to avoid being seen.

I'm clearly referring to the stealth detection aspect (aka you revealing others) of the mechanic (since that's what the topic is about). So my point still stands, an adjustment to that part of prowl would have zero real impact on PvE.

The detection is tied to the reduced monster aggression radius, so adding a cooldown to one adds a cooldown to the other, affecting both. For all I know, maybe the radius of the detection is tied to the radius of the reduced monster aggression radius, but admittedly that part seems unlikely.


I think it's best that Prowl be left alone, as nerfing the PvP mechanics of this skill may adversely affect the PvE mechanics of this skill. It has the same cost as Expert Hunter and should be treated as such. We can't help that every Werewolf has this ability innately — groups of humanoids would cause the same complaints if they all slotted Expert Hunter, too.

Pcgamer wrote: »

Why is it ALWAYS pvpers that complain about such things and ask for nerfs. This is why eso broke in the first place.

PvP can cause and create emotional feelings for those people who are on the losing side. For the longest time, Nightblades ruled and dominated Imperial City because they can spam cloak and use the vampiric passive to make them invisible by sprinting, and since werewolves now have sniffing abilities... their days of ruling and dominating IC are essentially over because there are at least a couple of werewolves in groups now to hunt down stealthy bombing/ganking Nightblades.