amiiegee wrote: »

Accidently pressed the wrong one , meaned NO to both.

How can these rage bait polls even be allowed 😂

The purpose of this poll is not to rage bait anyone. It's to see if anything from the Vengeance campaign can be salvaged and incorporated into Gray Host. What I want to understand is why people dislike Vengeance, and if there's anything at all good about it that can be added onto Gray Host without detracting from the experience or changing how Gray Host works on a fundamental level. Do people just not like the Vengeance skills, or do they also dislike the Loadouts/Perks systems?

I'm sorry you didn't read all of the poll options before answering. There's a reason this poll has 5 answers; it's to determine whether people take issue with Loadouts, Perks, both, or neither, and to also give an "Other" option for more nuanced opinions.

L_Nici wrote: »

Why? We do not need that because we have that fascinating thing called Sets and CP. They actually change your Stats to be useful for a DD, Healer or Tank. Also the overwhelming majority of those Vengeance Perks are garbage.

So it would be redundant to have Sets, CP, Loadouts, and Perks all at the same time?

Loadouts and perks are essentially just hard-coded sets and very boring ones at that.

They exist to fill the gap in Vengeance where we can't customize our characters with gear while also remaining lightweight for the server to handle and as such they literally would have zero purpose in Greyhost as it is.

Frankly, I'd rather see them expanded much more for vengeance. If they actually provided real statistical value and truly were able to support different styles of play rather than slight number changes then maybe Vengeance would be a little more... varied shall we say?

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The purpose of this poll is not to rage bait anyone. It's to see if anything from the Vengeance campaign can be salvaged and incorporated into Gray Host. What I want to understand is why people dislike Vengeance, and if there's anything at all good about it that can be added onto Gray Host without detracting from the experience or changing how Gray Host works on a fundamental level. Do people just not like the Vengeance skills, or do they also dislike the Loadouts/Perks systems?

I think asking directly why people don't like Vengeance would be interesting, though it would likely devolve into a mess.

I think you'll find that a lot of these people haven't actually tried Vengeance, they just don't like it cause they've bought into a false narrative that ZOS wants to get rid of normal PvP with builds and all of that.

To actually answer your broader question though, I'll speak for myself. Despite the fact that I defend the idea of Vengeance, when I do log on, I actually go to Grey Host.

What I dislike about Vengeance is the time to kill, the healing to damage ratio, the lack of good mobility options, how oversimplified the skills are, the AOE caps, and the class balance. I only do solo or small scale PvP, so I imagine other players like me who at least gave it a shot would have similar complaints. I did get some old friends on the game to play Vengeance with me and they also had complaints about the time to kill and AOE caps.

I don't like effortless survival and I don't like low skill ceilings. Vengeance unfortunately suffers from both. The environment is kind of a slog as implemented right now. It feels like none of your actions matter and even if someone isn't blocking or rolling, they can just survive if someone with a restoration staff is nearby.

Movement in Vengeance is rough cause there's not much that can be done about snares and roots and speed buffs are limited. If you find yourself outnumbered in Vengeance, your AOE ultimate won't even hit everybody which is pretty frustrating to deal with.

Lastly, the abilities are very bland, which I get is intentional, but I would've liked to see a test with more interesting abilities. Nightblade was the only class in Vengeance that felt complete, and even then I don't like that you just simply have your spectral bow every 5 seconds. I think that's a skill that should award light attacks and I also think it was far more interesting and balanced when the bow expired if you didn't use it in time. That small thing added a whole new layer to how the class had to be played.

When it comes to Sorc in Vengeance, they don't get a frag proc which kind of flattens the entire magsorc play style. I could go on and on about what I want to see from Vengeance skills, but the bottom line is that I don't like how much their simplicity totally flattens classes and destroys playstyles.

Out of all the people I've argued with about Vengeance, the only person that I actually saw in there who actually gave it a shot was React. For that reason, I can at least respect his opinion even though we disagree. I 100% understand why he doesn't like the environment, because I won't lie, it just wasn't fun to play. I think a lot of people who actually enjoy fighting other players would come to the same conclusion due to everything I just mentioned.

A lot of these other people have admitted to not even trying Vengeance and they don't even argue about the many valid criticisms of Vengeance at all. You'll just find talks about hidden agendas and conspiracies which is what annoys me so much about this. So you can expect lots of replies that don't answer your question at all.

All this being said, I do think there are good parts of Vengeance and that's why I defend it and hope for its improvement. The issues I mentioned are easily fixable. I don't think that the perks and loadouts are one of the good parts. However, on a broad level, I absolutely support more fair PvP and more accessible/easy to understand PvP. I just think there're ways that would be much more popular with PvPers other than perks and loadouts to bring this about. I would get into it, but this post is already way too long.

CptTekashi wrote: »

I would put my life on the people saying yes are people who are barely ever in there or are never in there ….

NO NO NO …. Defeats the whole point of why us the pvpers love cyro

Please elaborate on why the addition of Loadouts and Perks on top of the existing Gray Host build system would defeat the purpose of why PvPers love Cyrodiil.

If it's literally just Gray Host, but you have access to additional skills and passives not found anywhere else in the game, then how does this detract from what players love about Cyrodiil?

CptTekashi wrote: »

I would put my life on the people saying yes are people who are barely ever in there or are never in there ….

NO NO NO …. Defeats the whole point of why us the pvpers love cyro

You're lucky you said it in the conditional.

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The purpose of this poll is not to rage bait anyone. It's to see if anything from the Vengeance campaign can be salvaged and incorporated into Gray Host.

Your premise seems to be that Vengeance as is is the finished product. It's not. The loadouts and perks may well vanish from Vengeance as they add more back in, and allow some buildcrafting. They may stay so that level becomes unimportant. It may be a mix of both.

From the way ZOS are going about it, it seems clear to me that the goal is to strip GH to the bones, then add things back in, and try to get it as close to GH as possible without tanking performance. I think they need to take bigger swings and speed it up.

MorallyBipolar wrote: »

Enough of this.

You already have your vengeance. Now you're trying to chip away even more at GH than ZOS does all on their own.

This suggestion is like the neighbors dog who refuses to stay in their own yard.

You aren't losing anything about Gray Host if you get additional passives and skills added to the experience. This isn't Vengeance.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The purpose of this poll is not to rage bait anyone. It's to see if anything from the Vengeance campaign can be salvaged and incorporated into Gray Host.

Your premise seems to be that Vengeance as is is the finished product. It's not. The loadouts and perks may well vanish from Vengeance as they add more back in, and allow some buildcrafting. They may stay so that level becomes unimportant. It may be a mix of both.

From the way ZOS are going about it, it seems clear to me that the goal is to strip GH to the bones, then add things back in, and try to get it as close to GH as possible without tanking performance. I think they need to take bigger swings and speed it up.

Vengeance may no longer need Loadouts and Perks once it can support Item Sets and passive abilities.

However, I see some merit to the system, and I wonder if it would enhance the Gray Host experience if it was layered on top of existing gameplay. In particular, the Loadouts system seems the most enticing, as each Loadout gives you an associated skill line that you can only use while in is active — additional skills that players have to pick between sounds like it could shake up the Gray Host experience in a positive way.

Alright I actually logged in today to give you a better answer cause I think it's a good question.

Basically if you look at this screenshot:



If I switched from Scout to Soldier I'd lose a bunch of penetration, crit chance, and stam recovery in exchange for some max mag, armor, and healing taken.

In my opinion this is a very blunt tool and I don't think the tradeoffs are very interesting or well designed. You get much finer control over stats with sets/builds and enchants and it makes this system pretty unnecessary. For example, if I wanted more stamina recovery at the expense of damage, I just swap a jewelry enchant or another part of my build.

If I want more of a max stat I adjust my attributes or food. Then there's mundus stones to swap out too. I think people would prefer more precise control over their stats rather than to be subjected to a system that gives and takes away stats in bulk. Four options is really not enough to cover what someone is going for with their PvP build.

In terms of the skills in these loadout skill lines, I find that a lot of them would be a bit redundant in the Grey Host environment, even if adapted for it. For example, Burst of Speed in the Scout skill line has a similar animation to race against time. It also grants movement speed that gradually slows down the longer it's active. In the Grey Host environment, I think it would be better to just use Race Against Time, making Burst of Speed unnecessary bloat.

In general a lot of the Perk and Loadout system seems like an attempt to make up for the lack of build choice, which makes sense, but it just wouldn't add much to Grey Host.

I want more fair and accessible PvP, but I'm not anti build. I actually think a purely stat based build system in Cyrodiil with tradeoffs (similar to early ESO) provides a nice balance between player choice and fairness. The problem I have with Grey Host is the sheer number of sets, the amount of moving parts builds now have, the lack of tradeoffs with many sets, and procs. The worst part is that build choice and variety is as restrictive as I have EVER seen it in ESO PvP, so all of the "build choices" aren't real choices.

I think there should be many more built in restrictions that keep PvP theorycrafting from getting out of control and creating a power gap. This would actually create more playstyles and open up build variety a lot more. Though it sounds crazy, just look at how hybridization and subclassing added more options (on paper), but actually massively reduced the amount of real/viable options.

However, the loadout system is NOT the way to impose those restrictions. There's better ways to handle it.