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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/696147/playstation-5-patch-error-issue
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/696147/playstation-5-patch-error-issue
Werewolf In a completely unacceptable place in terms of PVP
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Nordstern✭✭✭
You are one of those people running 40k hp tanks probably.It doesn't matter what the OP is playing as, any regular pvper that isn't cheesing Werewolf can agree that Werewolf is broken and so is DK and SORC
Yep the only people defending those three things only play them exclusively. And for DK, personally, I don't think it should have been reworked first and given a damage and heal increase on all of those skills "just cause". Absolutely bonkers that I struggled to get a 15K tooltip on single target whip and on the same build it's over 28K.
ZOS come on. If you're going to do that, please scale up everyone else's damage. And I don't mean the masteries that force 3 classes to use their terrible skill lines that aren't good in PvP (templar, necro, arcanist). You know what, we can even toss NB in there too to be honest since the masteries on the class are absolute garbage and make 0 difference in a real combat scenario.
I struggled to understand why anyone would think the game is fair or balanced, but I know the names defending it. They play DK, they play WW. And you know what? They still aren't notable tbh. I only remember them because my memory is good, not because they did anything impactful.
But the forums are a place where everyone can pretend to be a god. Me? I'm going to tell the truth. I'll just be firing siege. Seriously. I'm firing siege. I hope those DK and WW look forward to it. It must have hurt badly to have been crushed even with their cheese yesterday. How did it feel to learn that siege is that powerful when there's 6 of them on you and your group?
It was totally neccessary to give dk the damage it got. Not because dk was too weak or not because I wanted to play dk. It was neccessary because cyrodiil is flooded with people that run 40+k hp. Most of them even stack in groups with tons of crosshealing. There needs to be damage as strong as dk has, otherwise pvp wouldnt be fun at all for anyone thats not interested in zerging. I wouldnt care if it was a different class (other than nb, whose general playstyle is super boring imo) but there shouldnt be a nerf to dk before they nerfed all the heal tanks as well. HP cap of 30k would be a great thing for example.
Wow, so it was necessary to buff DK to the point that I can get my old damage output on my DK pre-rework with 45K+ HP, heal more, sustain better, have corrosive and literally become invincible in a 1v1 for the most part -- the same exact tankiness you are complaining about I can reach AND do damage, and you say it was necessary?
I don't buy that line of argumentation. You know, you aren't the only DK that exists on the forums? A lot of people played the class before the rework.
And in my opinion, most of the changes were unwarranted. Do I need to list them all? You know what? Let's get started.
I. Wing change was dumb from a PvP perspective and it's use is exactly as anyone could have predicted -- more tower running, and then a delayed CC that has no real counter outside immovability that also shares the mysterious "lock" issue nearly all knockbacks have on the game. The skill also reduces damage from ranged attacks, which nearly all DoTs fall under, removing a counter that could exist to Corrosive. Wings was already powerful pre-rework, I slotted it even without caring about dragon fire scale's little fireball shooting out because it' so much damage reduction for so little.
II. Whip: I mean come on, the skill has double the tooltip damage it did previously, double the healing, has bonus damage, and it's AoE, and it can be spammed in its powered state more frequently than before. On my DK it heals more than my burst heal on my templar. Wow. I thought ZOS said that skills that attack shouldn't heal so much. That was the rationale behind a lot of the nerfs they handed out, EVEN IN THE SAME PATCH THE REWORK HAPPENED. Absolutely crazy and bonkers inconsistent logic being used. But okay, it's a "rework" so let's just ignore the fact that it goes against the rules the game has had for years, and everyone else got nerfed to abide by.
III. Blood of the Green Dragon / Elder Dragon: In no universe was it a good idea to make Coaglated Blood become an AoE, and then give a buff on top of it. It's not going to be a convincing argument to me that also has healed on this game for it's entire lifetime in PvP, this skill is a problem. It's another skill that can be used and stacked as a one button solution to a problem.
I never even bothered to test it with curse eater or stendarr because even without that, in a group spamming it every other skill, it's powerful and it's out of line. But let's talk about the other morph since that one also got buffed.
Blood of the Green Dragon, seems like it's not that bad on paper. But the problem with it is, like all other HP% healing, it requires no real investment besides stacking HP -- which is too easy and at the root of the tank problem in the first place. It doesn't help that these heals that take no real investment are still buffed by heal modifiers, and nearly all HP% healing counts as a direct heal, which is used to proc the most powerful effects in the game. One of them being that CP skill that lots of people keep quiet about, you know: From the Brink -- which is also a concern with the other morph of this skill and it's AoE heal.
I don't know about you, but somehow this fails to address the tanking issue and looks more like a power up to anyone that wants to be tanky and a ball group to me!
IV. Core of Flame: Buddy, we've already discussed this one in depth. Literally no longer needing to heavy attack on the right builds because of a single skill that sustains, gives a large amount of burst damage, and if you choose the other morph heals HP%. We just covered why HP% is bad in III. No need to beat a dead horse. Do we really need to expand on this, because if I do I'm typing 4-5 pages and the skill will get nerfed for sure. Because maybe you , the forums, and the devs don't know what I know about this skill and how to properly use it to maximize a state where you cannot be defeated simply by spamming this kill and never be able actually face any real pressure.
This skill was when I said "okay, seriously; the balance in the game sucks."
V. Inferno, specifically, incinerate. Again, yet another skill changed to function in a slightly different way, but that difference allowed more stacking of instances of damage. You know, the same thing people were complaining about with the Signet mythic. I see this as an unwarranted buff, but probably one of the lesser egregious ones because unlike the other skills, by itself it's not that good and the skill is different from before BUT I actually preferred the old one more because of how it functioned at range and could be combined in a different way versus the one on live.
VI. Molten Weapons: Again, why was this buff neeeded? Isn't the effect it does on the same level as a 5-piece set called Way of Fire? With Threads of War on a certain status-oblivion DK build, I use this skill and stack over 12 instances of damage thanks to DK built in delayed damage. Someone unlucky will get hit by 16 instances. Can someone explain to me why this skill ever needed to be changed like this in the first place? I cannot see or understand it to be honest.
VII. Passive: Landslide -- come on, why?
VIII. DK masteries : who seriously that looked at templar, NB, arcanist masteries...think that DK masteries are in line? After considering the above, who thinks that they are in line? If someone does, I cannot take them seriously.
But we're only getting started. Because if I go in depth, you better believe not only will you not be able to convince me, you won't be convincing anyone and DK will get more than just Core of Flame and Whip nerfed.
And don't worry, before you say "but Sorc" I have the same exact notes on them as well. After all, besides firing siege, the only thing I do in the game is find broken builds and buggy gear and interactions that are too cheese for me to use, but the people on Discord love it. Because they only want to win.
Notice above I never even mentioned coming out of stealth with a 35K leap absuing riposte and proccing it on your own. There's a lot more if you want to continue. I love teaching after all.
Where should I start...
Running 45k hp shouldnt be possible at all and if you run it on dk you might deal the same damage you did before but you still wont deal the insane damage people complain about.
Wings dont reduce dot damage, thats just wrong.
Flame Lash could need a nerf, whip doesnt as it cant be spammed with buffed damage.
The aoe heal of dragon blood isnt strong, youre making up things now.
My argument was clear: there needs to be a proper counter to kill the amount of pvp tanks in the game these days. Just because there can be dk tanks as well doesnt mean im wrong.
I guarantee you that I could kill you even if you spam Core of Flame in perma block or do whatever you want to do. Also sorc gets almost unlimited sustain as well now and they dont even have to spam a skill every 4 seconds.
Afaik inferno only changed in the way it works, not in the way it can be stacked with other damage. Was 5s before as well.
Molten weapons isnt that strong. I even changed it for 2h wd buff just because that one pops more consistent with bar swap animation cancel.
Landslide is a great concept.
Cherry picking once again. Yes, the 3 mentioned classes are inferior right now but others arent with the class masteries.
Theres stuff like pulse gank or werewolves in this game that are super strong and hardly require any skill to be succesfull with. Dk is different. A medium skilled player will still have no chance even if they run dk. And at least from my experience thats the problem people have. The ones that complain the loudest were trying to use dk as well. But when they still died against other dks all the time they started complaining.
I'm still having sooooo bizarre feelings that people are defending how OP DK is. It is just.. complete madness, these people are behaving like kindergarteners.. self-serving bias and self-choice-supporting bias is crazy strong in some people. I'm literally unable to fathom how somebody can treat that only 2 classes out of 7 are viable as okay. The sense of justice and fairness in many people are just so frustratingly weak.gammelscroll wrote: »gammelscroll wrote: »This is 100% true. Werewolf is absolutely broken. Unlike other stuff thats strong (like DK) it doesnt only have strong offense. At the same time it can be built unkillable to single enemies. Not even talking about the fact that it has unlimited sustain and can stay in ww form forever. The strength it has would only be justified if it was build with a 15s uptime and 300+ ult needed to pop again.
You just described DKs...
I think its a skill/build issue. Show me your build you use vs ww?
Feel free to 1v1 me on xbox to show me my "skill issue"
Of course I can kill most werewolves 1v1 but those that know what to do and run around 50k hp cant be killed as long as they pay attention. Thats my point. Im not dying to them but it shouldnt be possible to be unkillable and still deal decent damage that is especially annoying in outnumbered scenarios. And it's not only it's overall strength, it's also the fact that werewolf is extremely easy to play. Theres way too many easy modes in this game and this one might be the worst or at least close to streak spam range gankers.
If a ww run around with 50-60k hp. They do almost no dmg. Then its a skill issue if you die. Show me your build? So we can see what your doing wrong. Sure ill dual you with my Templar. I dont even play ww, and never had problems with them.
As for now, DKs and shield stacking sorcs are the main issue.
I challenge you to go cyrodil and 1v1 a shield stacking sorc or a good pyrebrand/shared pain dk as a werewolf.
Maybe you stop cry then
What the problem you guys have with reading? You literally quoted me saying that I don't die to them. And yes, ofc you can easily build a ww with 45k hp and high damage and thats exactly the problem. They sit in zergs, deal insane damage and yet are hard to burst down. And all that while requiring hardly any skill.
Shield stacking sorcs are a problem, I agree on that.It doesn't matter what the OP is playing as, any regular pvper that isn't cheesing Werewolf can agree that Werewolf is broken and so is DK and SORC
Yep the only people defending those three things only play them exclusively. And for DK, personally, I don't think it should have been reworked first and given a damage and heal increase on all of those skills "just cause". Absolutely bonkers that I struggled to get a 15K tooltip on single target whip and on the same build it's over 28K.
ZOS come on. If you're going to do that, please scale up everyone else's damage. And I don't mean the masteries that force 3 classes to use their terrible skill lines that aren't good in PvP (templar, necro, arcanist). You know what, we can even toss NB in there too to be honest since the masteries on the class are absolute garbage and make 0 difference in a real combat scenario.
I struggled to understand why anyone would think the game is fair or balanced, but I know the names defending it. They play DK, they play WW. And you know what? They still aren't notable tbh. I only remember them because my memory is good, not because they did anything impactful.
But the forums are a place where everyone can pretend to be a god. Me? I'm going to tell the truth. I'll just be firing siege. Seriously. I'm firing siege. I hope those DK and WW look forward to it. It must have hurt badly to have been crushed even with their cheese yesterday. How did it feel to learn that siege is that powerful when there's 6 of them on you and your group?
It was totally neccessary to give dk the damage it got. Not because dk was too weak or not because I wanted to play dk. It was neccessary because cyrodiil is flooded with people that run 40+k hp. Most of them even stack in groups with tons of crosshealing. There needs to be damage as strong as dk has, otherwise pvp wouldnt be fun at all for anyone thats not interested in zerging. I wouldnt care if it was a different class (other than nb, whose general playstyle is super boring imo) but there shouldnt be a nerf to dk before they nerfed all the heal tanks as well. HP cap of 30k would be a great thing for example.
Lol, DK is the reason why people have 40k HP.
I don't know if you have started playing a few months ago or for some reason it's very different on different platforms but on Xbox there were a lot of hp stack pvp "tanks" prior to the dk rework. And if people think they need to hp stack to survive against a dk they might have to think about their builds for a bit. I run below 30k hp and yet only died very few times against dks. I will never understand how people have fun running builds that will never be able to kill anyone on their own.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭I don't know if you have started playing a few months ago or for some reason it's very different on different platforms but on Xbox there were a lot of hp stack pvp "tanks" prior to the dk rework. And if people think they need to hp stack to survive against a dk they might have to think about their builds for a bit. I run below 30k hp and yet only died very few times against dks. I will never understand how people have fun running builds that will never be able to kill anyone on their own.
I'm on PC NA. If you run a 30k HP build on PC NA you might as well put a sign on your character that says "Free AP" because you're not gonna last 2 minutes in a 1v1 against a good DK or outnumbered in Cyrodiil.
There is a legitimate and mathematical reason why people need to stack at least 35k HP against a properly built DK. It has nothing to do with mechanics or how you build, but rather the fact that a DK in an optimized setup will have between 25k - max pen, ~100-110% crit damage, 7k+ WD, ~25k mag, and between 30% and 60% damage done (depending on build). With these values, it does not matter how tanky you are, as most of your mitigation will be canceled by their % damage done modifiers. After all that, they still have Molten Whip/Power Lash that can hit as hard as a Bow Proc, so all it takes is 1 well-timed burst combo to 1 shot you.1 -
Chrlynsch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
Here is the thing if you go into solo queue you might be lucky enough to have a good healer but most of your teammates are rocking solo builds that do nothing to support your group. 8 unorganized selfishly build solo human players will get rolled by 8 solo unorganized werewolves.
Had the pleasure of fighting loosely coordinated enemies that utilize shielding and cross heals in a BG and a loosely coordinated werewolf heavy team had a hard time breaking in and doing much of anything.
Human players survivability should increase as they get more allies. However werewolves survivability is the same no matter how many wolves they have as they have no cross healing or self healing capabilities.
The main complaint pvpers have is that they don't want to change their pvp tactics to take on a different kind of enemy, they would nerf something before adapting their play style.
But I also don't want to sit here and say werewolf is perfect as is because it isn't but it is more competitive than it has been in a long time.Caius
Pack Leader of Scourge Alliance- First Fang of Hircine, The Beast of Bruma
PC NA0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
I don't know if you have started playing a few months ago or for some reason it's very different on different platforms but on Xbox there were a lot of hp stack pvp "tanks" prior to the dk rework. And if people think they need to hp stack to survive against a dk they might have to think about their builds for a bit. I run below 30k hp and yet only died very few times against dks. I will never understand how people have fun running builds that will never be able to kill anyone on their own.
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It's not fun to get one shotted either. And it's going to come down to a few factors you have to consider.
Solo?
Class?
IC, Cyro, BGs?
Getting targeted for some reason?
And so on.
I can play 30k because I have shields and high mobility so my effective health pool isn't just 30k.
Also I still get caught in WW and DK buggy stun locks and just die sometimes where I would have possibly lived with a higher pool.
I say all that to say that it's not always because someone just wants to run high health. Sometimes the environment is going to push you that way, especially if you don't have mobility.
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IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
That's a fair point however then we come into the how often factor. It's fine if you see it now and again which would dictate that it's doable but perhaps not that easy to do.
I wouldn't say as much about an Arcanist if I saw this situation here and there. With ww you'll see it time and time again in bgs. So sure you look for common threads and here's what I see. Good players on ww are what you would expect, hard to kill and hitting the hardest.
Then there are the mediocre players and well they are still somewhat hard to kill, lasting longer than you've seen them last on other builds and still doing more damage than you would expect from a player that's that hard to kill.
I don't have a problem with ww being strong or ww being tanky but to have both in a package with speed even at mediocre levels becomes an issue.
The problem is that there are now so many wws and I get it that some of it is that people just wanted to play a powerful one bar ww. I don't have an issue with upgrading ww in general but it's got too much going for it in terms of heals, damage, and speed,.
You can tell in any game when there is possibly an issue when a particular element shows up too much in a game where diversity is part of the hook. In most of my bgs now there are at least 2 wws on each team and sometimes 3 or 4.
The problem is that some of them hit hard while being tanky and others are still resilient enough that they raise ttk and sometimes just make it infinite. You can't ignore them because they do just enough damage and on cooldown cc to be an issue.
Oh and lets not forget that they have tone of the buggy ccs so there's a percent chance you'll get stuck in that animation and they will just free weave on you into the ground.
Now as with dk they may be doing the same wait your turn thing in saying that ww is strong now but that after the rework so too will other classes. Unfortunately this is just still a bad place to be stuck in if you're not a dk or ww enjoyer.
Oh and to be clear I don't often die to ww or even dk because I have built to work around them. I'm more so saying that vs the other classes, I'm working much harder to defend or work around wws.
WW needs another balance pace to adjust the risk/reward slider a bit.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
I’ve seen you in Cyro and you were zerging, so it makes sense why you think WW isn’t broken3 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭I mean, anybody can claim DK or WW isn't threatening when they're sitting inside a 10 man zerg. If you actually want to see why WW or DK overperforms, just head to Stormhaven and fight a proper good WW in a controlled 1v1 fight. You'll change your mind lol.
0 -
Major_Mangle✭✭✭✭✭
✭I mean, anybody can claim DK or WW isn't threatening when they're sitting inside a 10 man zerg. If you actually want to see why WW or DK overperforms, just head to Stormhaven and fight a proper good WW in a controlled 1v1 fight. You'll change your mind lol.
Ye but didn´t you know, you shouldn´t use any feedback from PTS duels to balance the game (not even consider feedback from it), but rather balance the game from my perspective sitting inside a massive faction blob where I don´t have to think about any of my actions.Edited by Major_Mangle on July 14, 2026 11:11AMPs4 EU 2016-2020
PC/EU: 2020 -1 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
I’ve seen you in Cyro and you were zerging, so it makes sense why you think WW isn’t broken
Trying to invalidate by 'you zerg so ur opinion no matter anymore' is wild. Yes, as if you aren't zerging. Don't we all just xv1 each other? Saying something along the line of 'in this state, we are forced to'? Just because you are with someone you know and are under 12 or following around massive group in an alleged 'looking for fights' and your idea of 'fight' is coordinating ult with your friends against a single person doesn't mean 'not zerging' since the definition of 'zerging' is whenever you and I get xv1'd and fail to come out top. Edited by IZZEFlameLash on July 14, 2026 11:15AMImperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
That's a fair point however then we come into the how often factor. It's fine if you see it now and again which would dictate that it's doable but perhaps not that easy to do.
I wouldn't say as much about an Arcanist if I saw this situation here and there. With ww you'll see it time and time again in bgs. So sure you look for common threads and here's what I see. Good players on ww are what you would expect, hard to kill and hitting the hardest.
Then there are the mediocre players and well they are still somewhat hard to kill, lasting longer than you've seen them last on other builds and still doing more damage than you would expect from a player that's that hard to kill.
I don't have a problem with ww being strong or ww being tanky but to have both in a package with speed even at mediocre levels becomes an issue.
The problem is that there are now so many wws and I get it that some of it is that people just wanted to play a powerful one bar ww. I don't have an issue with upgrading ww in general but it's got too much going for it in terms of heals, damage, and speed,.
You can tell in any game when there is possibly an issue when a particular element shows up too much in a game where diversity is part of the hook. In most of my bgs now there are at least 2 wws on each team and sometimes 3 or 4.
The problem is that some of them hit hard while being tanky and others are still resilient enough that they raise ttk and sometimes just make it infinite. You can't ignore them because they do just enough damage and on cooldown cc to be an issue.
Oh and lets not forget that they have tone of the buggy ccs so there's a percent chance you'll get stuck in that animation and they will just free weave on you into the ground.
Now as with dk they may be doing the same wait your turn thing in saying that ww is strong now but that after the rework so too will other classes. Unfortunately this is just still a bad place to be stuck in if you're not a dk or ww enjoyer.
Oh and to be clear I don't often die to ww or even dk because I have built to work around them. I'm more so saying that vs the other classes, I'm working much harder to defend or work around wws.
WW needs another balance pace to adjust the risk/reward slider a bit.
Well, we can agree to disagree on it. Imho, it is a single bar with limited capability and entirely melee only, easy to keep at distance if you snare WW. Though, I can see that Esoteric mythic combined with WW can meet that criteria of tanky but deals decent damage 100%.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »
Well, we can agree to disagree on it. Imho, it is a single bar with limited capability and entirely melee only, easy to keep at distance if you snare WW. Though, I can see that Esoteric mythic combined with WW can meet that criteria of tanky but deals decent damage 100%.
So we just going to ignore that a single bar is more than enough if you have heals on your damage skills, sustain built into your skills, a large heal and an execute?
Yes you can share them but they have a gap closer, speed, and resources to roll at least some of the snares
You're also only taking about evading the threat. I'm not saying at all that wws can't be killed but they can be much harder to do so across the board while still having damage that can be meaningful or even dangerous depending on build.
To put it into perspective, a ww on any class can be tanky and deal damage while being able to both chase, defend, and evade. An oakensoul on any class can't say the same. I just so oaken because that's the closest one bar example I can think of.
So we think we see so many wws in population today because players just really loved ww and dreamed of the day they could finally play it? Or is it because ww is fun but also easily allows you to be competitive regardless of skill level? Probably a mix of both but too much on the carry side I think
0 -
gammelscroll✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
That's a fair point however then we come into the how often factor. It's fine if you see it now and again which would dictate that it's doable but perhaps not that easy to do.
I wouldn't say as much about an Arcanist if I saw this situation here and there. With ww you'll see it time and time again in bgs. So sure you look for common threads and here's what I see. Good players on ww are what you would expect, hard to kill and hitting the hardest.
Then there are the mediocre players and well they are still somewhat hard to kill, lasting longer than you've seen them last on other builds and still doing more damage than you would expect from a player that's that hard to kill.
I don't have a problem with ww being strong or ww being tanky but to have both in a package with speed even at mediocre levels becomes an issue.
The problem is that there are now so many wws and I get it that some of it is that people just wanted to play a powerful one bar ww. I don't have an issue with upgrading ww in general but it's got too much going for it in terms of heals, damage, and speed,.
You can tell in any game when there is possibly an issue when a particular element shows up too much in a game where diversity is part of the hook. In most of my bgs now there are at least 2 wws on each team and sometimes 3 or 4.
The problem is that some of them hit hard while being tanky and others are still resilient enough that they raise ttk and sometimes just make it infinite. You can't ignore them because they do just enough damage and on cooldown cc to be an issue.
Oh and lets not forget that they have tone of the buggy ccs so there's a percent chance you'll get stuck in that animation and they will just free weave on you into the ground.
Now as with dk they may be doing the same wait your turn thing in saying that ww is strong now but that after the rework so too will other classes. Unfortunately this is just still a bad place to be stuck in if you're not a dk or ww enjoyer.
Oh and to be clear I don't often die to ww or even dk because I have built to work around them. I'm more so saying that vs the other classes, I'm working much harder to defend or work around wws.
WW needs another balance pace to adjust the risk/reward slider a bit.
BG and CP cyrodil is two completely different things.0 -
gammelscroll✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »
Well, we can agree to disagree on it. Imho, it is a single bar with limited capability and entirely melee only, easy to keep at distance if you snare WW. Though, I can see that Esoteric mythic combined with WW can meet that criteria of tanky but deals decent damage 100%.
So we just going to ignore that a single bar is more than enough if you have heals on your damage skills, sustain built into your skills, a large heal and an execute?
Yes you can share them but they have a gap closer, speed, and resources to roll at least some of the snares
You're also only taking about evading the threat. I'm not saying at all that wws can't be killed but they can be much harder to do so across the board while still having damage that can be meaningful or even dangerous depending on build.
To put it into perspective, a ww on any class can be tanky and deal damage while being able to both chase, defend, and evade. An oakensoul on any class can't say the same. I just so oaken because that's the closest one bar example I can think of.
So we think we see so many wws in population today because players just really loved ww and dreamed of the day they could finally play it? Or is it because ww is fun but also easily allows you to be competitive regardless of skill level? Probably a mix of both but too much on the carry side I think
Have you fought a good DK anytime? They can pretty much tank 4-5 players, and suddenly burst 50k ++ and one shot someone.
I got one shotted last night. 24k take flight, 20k power lash on 3500 crit resist with pariah set and 42k hp.
So stop defending DKs and only cry about ww. In cyrodil ww is no threat.
But those 80% DKs running around are destroying all fun in this game.
Iam so tired of BGs, cause it all matter on which team have most DKs wins. If you see 4-5 DKs on enemy team ,.most people.just leaveEdited by gammelscroll on July 14, 2026 2:47PM0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭gammelscroll wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »thesarahandcompany wrote: »No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.
thanks for the reply
So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.
Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.
You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.
I'll offer an opinion from the other side. I took this as an if you know you know. Werewolf is busted.
Here's some simple math. You consistently queue into solo queues and easily see werewolves tank multiple players while still being able to get kills and do damage that can't be shrugged off. It's not about saying ww is a nuke. It's simply dealing more damage than a player that tanky should be.
If you have been playing pvp and need convincing then we're playing different pvp or you're on a dk.
I will offer one caveat. I have a friend that plays cp and says they aren't that bad so it may be more of a no cp issue.
The thing is, most people in ESO actually do run with terribly outdated builds or just flat out no real builds (you really see that if you engage in PvE often for whatever rewards and farming needed, and Night Market kind of really brought it to the surface level). And most people also don't bother to line up burst skills. So, anyone with decent build will tank multiple players quite often on virtually any class not werewolf.
Like, you wouldn't say Arcanist is busted if you saw someone tank and spank those types of players, would you?
Which leads to why I am very skeptical of the claims of something being super duper busted that it is gamebreaking and needs nerf. WW can be strong but strong damage ones tend to backpedal real fast if you press them with your own damage combo while the tanky ones tend to tickle you. More likely than not, it ends in either them running around an object, or friends or some other members of faction joining the fray until it is you that need to be running around.
That's a fair point however then we come into the how often factor. It's fine if you see it now and again which would dictate that it's doable but perhaps not that easy to do.
I wouldn't say as much about an Arcanist if I saw this situation here and there. With ww you'll see it time and time again in bgs. So sure you look for common threads and here's what I see. Good players on ww are what you would expect, hard to kill and hitting the hardest.
Then there are the mediocre players and well they are still somewhat hard to kill, lasting longer than you've seen them last on other builds and still doing more damage than you would expect from a player that's that hard to kill.
I don't have a problem with ww being strong or ww being tanky but to have both in a package with speed even at mediocre levels becomes an issue.
The problem is that there are now so many wws and I get it that some of it is that people just wanted to play a powerful one bar ww. I don't have an issue with upgrading ww in general but it's got too much going for it in terms of heals, damage, and speed,.
You can tell in any game when there is possibly an issue when a particular element shows up too much in a game where diversity is part of the hook. In most of my bgs now there are at least 2 wws on each team and sometimes 3 or 4.
The problem is that some of them hit hard while being tanky and others are still resilient enough that they raise ttk and sometimes just make it infinite. You can't ignore them because they do just enough damage and on cooldown cc to be an issue.
Oh and lets not forget that they have tone of the buggy ccs so there's a percent chance you'll get stuck in that animation and they will just free weave on you into the ground.
Now as with dk they may be doing the same wait your turn thing in saying that ww is strong now but that after the rework so too will other classes. Unfortunately this is just still a bad place to be stuck in if you're not a dk or ww enjoyer.
Oh and to be clear I don't often die to ww or even dk because I have built to work around them. I'm more so saying that vs the other classes, I'm working much harder to defend or work around wws.
WW needs another balance pace to adjust the risk/reward slider a bit.
BG and CP cyrodil is two completely different things.
I agreed to this point earlier and said that maybe this is more of a no cp issue though it's still an issue.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭gammelscroll wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »
Well, we can agree to disagree on it. Imho, it is a single bar with limited capability and entirely melee only, easy to keep at distance if you snare WW. Though, I can see that Esoteric mythic combined with WW can meet that criteria of tanky but deals decent damage 100%.
So we just going to ignore that a single bar is more than enough if you have heals on your damage skills, sustain built into your skills, a large heal and an execute?
Yes you can share them but they have a gap closer, speed, and resources to roll at least some of the snares
You're also only taking about evading the threat. I'm not saying at all that wws can't be killed but they can be much harder to do so across the board while still having damage that can be meaningful or even dangerous depending on build.
To put it into perspective, a ww on any class can be tanky and deal damage while being able to both chase, defend, and evade. An oakensoul on any class can't say the same. I just so oaken because that's the closest one bar example I can think of.
So we think we see so many wws in population today because players just really loved ww and dreamed of the day they could finally play it? Or is it because ww is fun but also easily allows you to be competitive regardless of skill level? Probably a mix of both but too much on the carry side I think
Have you fought a good DK anytime? They can pretty much tank 4-5 players, and suddenly burst 50k ++ and one shot someone.
I got one shotted last night. 24k take flight, 20k power lash on 3500 crit resist with pariah set and 42k hp.
So stop defending DKs and only cry about ww. In cyrodil ww is no threat.
But those 80% DKs running around are destroying all fun in this game.
Iam so tired of BGs, cause it all matter on which team have most DKs wins. If you see 4-5 DKs on enemy team ,.most people.just leave
You missed my comments earlier where I pretty much say dk and ww are issues. I am just currently not talking about dk because this is a ww thread. Just like in a dk thread there's no need to bring up ww as much if at all.0 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I'd like to genuinely know who tought it was a good idea to make werewolves see invisible targets at range. I'm not a nb main but holy moly that's an entire class right there super hard countered without even having to use a skill slot or consumable.0 -
hoangdz✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Trying to invalidate by 'you zerg so ur opinion no matter anymore' is wild.
Actually, I never stated anything along those lines. My point is that you do not see an issue with WW because you play inside a large group, which gives you cross heals and added defense to shut down a WW, while someone who plays in a smaller group or solo will have an extremely difficult time dealing with them. Both stances can be true, but since this is an MMO game, it is ZOS's job to find a balance between making WW viable enough but not too broken that you'd need a group to survive one.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Yes, as if you aren't zerging. Don't we all just xv1 each other? Saying something along the line of 'in this state, we are forced to'? Just because you are with someone you know and are under 12 or following around massive group in an alleged 'looking for fights' and your idea of 'fight' is coordinating ult with your friends against a single person doesn't mean 'not zerging' since the definition of 'zerging' is whenever you and I get xv1'd and fail to come out top.
Actually, no, I don't Xv1 on a daily basis. The only reason I would do that is if I really dislike someone, but my blacklist is pretty short. Normally, I prefer to 1vX or play in a duo. In fact, you tried to zerg me down 2 times and gave up because you couldn't kill me with 8 other people lol.
Edited by hoangdz on July 14, 2026 6:20PM0 -
Nordstern✭✭✭I don't know if you have started playing a few months ago or for some reason it's very different on different platforms but on Xbox there were a lot of hp stack pvp "tanks" prior to the dk rework. And if people think they need to hp stack to survive against a dk they might have to think about their builds for a bit. I run below 30k hp and yet only died very few times against dks. I will never understand how people have fun running builds that will never be able to kill anyone on their own.
I'm on PC NA. If you run a 30k HP build on PC NA you might as well put a sign on your character that says "Free AP" because you're not gonna last 2 minutes in a 1v1 against a good DK or outnumbered in Cyrodiil.
There is a legitimate and mathematical reason why people need to stack at least 35k HP against a properly built DK. It has nothing to do with mechanics or how you build, but rather the fact that a DK in an optimized setup will have between 25k - max pen, ~100-110% crit damage, 7k+ WD, ~25k mag, and between 30% and 60% damage done (depending on build). With these values, it does not matter how tanky you are, as most of your mitigation will be canceled by their % damage done modifiers. After all that, they still have Molten Whip/Power Lash that can hit as hard as a Bow Proc, so all it takes is 1 well-timed burst combo to 1 shot you.
Im really tired of people on here thinking they can educate me about this game. I play solo GH almost all the time. True solo, not ungrouped zerg surfing. And the few times I dont solo, i play duo. Yet I have no problems to be successfull with my 30k hp build. Yes, there will be players with maxed out duel builds that can beat me but thats not what i'm talking about at all. And I survive outnumbered without a problem, as long as theres no pulse gank bs stacked on top of the zerg. Also I would be surprised if the skill level was so much higher on pc, cause when I played on pc a few years ago that wasnt the case at all.
My defensive stats are about 40k resistances and about 4k crit resist by the way. If thats what you got and cant handle dks i dont know what the problem is then.Edited by Nordstern on July 14, 2026 7:53PM0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Trying to invalidate by 'you zerg so ur opinion no matter anymore' is wild.
Actually, I never stated anything along those lines. My point is that you do not see an issue with WW because you play inside a large group, which gives you cross heals and added defense to shut down a WW, while someone who plays in a smaller group or solo will have an extremely difficult time dealing with them. Both stances can be true, but since this is an MMO game, it is ZOS's job to find a balance between making WW viable enough but not too broken that you'd need a group to survive one.IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Yes, as if you aren't zerging. Don't we all just xv1 each other? Saying something along the line of 'in this state, we are forced to'? Just because you are with someone you know and are under 12 or following around massive group in an alleged 'looking for fights' and your idea of 'fight' is coordinating ult with your friends against a single person doesn't mean 'not zerging' since the definition of 'zerging' is whenever you and I get xv1'd and fail to come out top.
Actually, no, I don't Xv1 on a daily basis. The only reason I would do that is if I really dislike someone, but my blacklist is pretty short. Normally, I prefer to 1vX or play in a duo. In fact, you tried to zerg me down 2 times and gave up because you couldn't kill me with 8 other people lol.
The whole point of bringing up 'you were in the zerg no wonder you don't think wws are op' then? What was it? It was (and still seems to be) a common 'point out' used by people that think they should be guaranteed 1vx win every time they wade into or harass the flanks of a group of people to shut the differing opinions. So, why should I think that you are using it in any different way?Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
brtomkin✭✭✭
Actually, no, I don't Xv1 on a daily basis. The only reason I would do that is if I really dislike someone, but my blacklist is pretty short. Normally, I prefer to 1vX or play in a duo. In fact, you tried to zerg me down 2 times and gave up because you couldn't kill me with 8 other people lol.
Were you on werewolf... what was your build? I'm having trouble surviving 8 people on werewolf.
PS5 NA: Pickmans__Model, CP 2600+0