No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.

Just play Vengeance, problem solved

Usureki wrote: »

I know what you are talking about. Arcanist main here. I have the same experience; killing a WW alone is nigh impossible due to their endless sustain and even their no-burst damage is considerable. People are crying over Shattered Paths removal and claiming that with the additional nerfs WW is 'balanced', but I kinda find that a fallacy considering my experience in Battlegrounds.

DKs and WWs are simply objectively overpowered compared to other classes, especially Arcanist, which is great for PvE and the most trash class for PvP. There is a reason why you see literally every single 'good player' play with DKs, though Sorc finally made a comeback too nowadays. We were led to believe that Class Mastery will solve the temporary power balance issues between revised and non-revised classes - in that update the Arcanist received bugged passives and another nerf to its ultimate. Ridiculous. If you are not that kind of player who sticks to one main character I just recommend playing another class, for there is no role other than shielder (but then again, shielding gives zero score points in a bg) where Arca is viable compared to other classes.

I'd also like to point out how I've encountered many DKs who were not really good at what they do (they often did not find the whip button enough), and I could deal with them easily. Not with WWs tho. I'm either very unlucky or even a less skilled player can perform in a powerful manner when playing WW. And I agree, that is unacceptable.

There are myriads of other threads discussing the very same deal and you will be surprised how many people are blindly defending their way of play denying the fact that 9 out of 10 BGs the team with more DKs and WWs win a match. Some people enjoy playing with an advantage and playing a DK or WW brawler is most certainly a no brainer easy mode for Battlegrounds, once you follow one of the many guides available on the internet (you may also note that most of them titled 'ridiculously op' or 'ez meta' etc.). Though I know it's silly, but I'm became so bitter that I'm starting to be mad at people playing as DK or WW as I've recognized that BGs without them have a much greater chance of being interesting and close call, where both sides has to do their best to compete. With DKs and WWs around, the math is simple: where there are more of them, that team wins.

Thanks for the reply

Yeah, for the most part I agree. I've gotten my arcanist to a point where at least in bg, I can reliably kill just about any class or it will at least be close. Dk, Sorc, Necro, whatever. However with werewolf, its not even close, ever. Every single target attack gets dodged, and they are way too fast for any AOE to land, which leaves you a half second window every time you stun them, to be able to reliably land damage.

I genuinely think that DK is significantly less of a problem than WW is. Most the DK's i've come across can be dealt with using well timed cc. When the CC wears off you can still do damage, Werewolf on the other hand? once cc wears off youre hardly landing any damage, that itself is an issue.

Anyone you see downplaying WW is probably using it, I think no matter how good or bad your build is, whether you can kill it or not, its a problem.

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

No one can possibly help you if all you post is that you have 41k hp and 34k armor etc. That actually doesn't tell us anything. Unless you share your CMXs, build, ability bars, there's actually no evidence that the issue is with werewolves instead of you.

thanks for the reply

So my post was not so people could come here and try and tweak my build. that is just a reference for my tankiness or proof of health. the solution does not lie in everything that is not werewolf, werewolf is a problem that needs to be fixed. Ive been tweaking my builds for weeks trying to combat WW on both Sorcerer and on my Arcanist. nothing seems to work. It is blatantly obvious that werewolf is way too powerful just based off of the performance of people who use it. Millions in damage no deaths, cant single them out, cant fight them as a group. I get it if you're trying to play devils advocate here, but the conflict here is far from "how do I fix my build so I can fight WW". 5k dps is plenty to mow down any other player but maybe some necro builds, but with werewolf its not even a drop in the bucket. these are anecdotes, and if you PVP as a non corrosive whip dk, you should immediately know what I am talking about. I am well past the point of interest in finding out what I can do for me to help combat this. Ive spent the time thinking, the materials crafting sets, transmutes reconstructing items, none of it has made any difference, this is not a me problem, this is a werewolf problem.

Sure, I can be a 17k health Nightblade with gold Ruby Ash Bow, Prophet's set in BG and complain about how OP everything is here too. Doesn't mean my complaint over the balance is really valid. Because, I am using something that will snap in half if a competent player sneezes. I'd feel everything that kills me in a combo would be super duper OP and gamebreaking.

You see why the other person is asking what you were playing as? Context helps.

Agreed. Again, if you isolate me, and dont have proofs of my experience, skill, and the sturdiness of my build? Your skepticism and criticism makes sense, im not going to try and project on to you that I am accomplished, I noted my stats to show that I didnt’t have 17k health, no armor, and overtly poor damage. Its not just me, people Ive been playing alongside for years with great builds and consistently high performances are consistently getting shut down by werewolves. They do not die, and they output unbelievable amounts of damage in proportion to their mobility, sustain, and tankiness.

If I can effectively get kills against any class in any given non werewolf match, and then immediately get shut down without a single close fight against werewolves, I see that as an issue. You do not see that degree of polarity in any other imbalance in the game. I have little to no issue with DK despite 16k corrosive whips - there are weak links. Sorc Werewolf does not have any apparent weak links.

Again, if you do not see this issue, you are either using it, or you are using DK. Plain and simple IZZEFLAMELASH

gammelscroll wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

For reference, I am a Sorc Main, though lately I am playing my arcanist (41k Hp, 4600 dmg, 34000 armor, 88% crit dmg, 30% crit chance), Ive been with sorc through thick and thin over the years. I *CANNNOT* kill a well built werewolf in a head on confrontation in any circumstance, and this threshold of imbalance is dangerous for the health of the game.

I play BG more often than Cyrodiil, and I find that around every other match, I queue against 2 sorc werewolves with 40k+ health. Here's what I believe to be the issue;

They DO NOT DIE

Not to sound like a broken record here, but I alone cannot kill a werewolf, best case scenario they cannot kill me and we stalemate. A lot of content creators and people within the game that you may or may not find in these forums, for the most part agree that you simply should just not fight a werewolf, as you will probably not kill it alone. What is bizarre and just outright unacceptable is how long it takes for multiple people to kill a werewolf. Playing BG, you'll find that it takes 3 people (unless dk's corrosive whipping) 30 seconds to 1 minute to kill a werewolf that is actively fighting back and not just dodging and running.

Tug O' War

Similar to Tug O' War, fighting in ESO has what I like to call an Inflection point; It is the point at which one person, whether due to blood thirsty, execute skills, or because the person losing has to flee or go on the defensive, that one person begins to win the fight. This exists between non werewolf players, but this inflection point simply does not exist when fighting werewolves. I've found that when fighting werewolves, you gradually just lose the fight, and they do not. Using CMX I have found my average dps against werewolves to be 5k-6k. Forgive my rhetoric, but I am just not quite understanding how I can come across multiple werewolves with 40-50k health, that can out heal 5-6k Dps while breaking cc and Immobilizations, and also shred through 40k health at 34k armor.

Group PvP

While the issues stated above are problematic themselves, what they open the door to simply just degrades the PVP experience. When queuing BG against solid werewolves, I find that I cant even fight the non werewolf players, the werewolves just do so much damage so fast, that you cannot ignore them (especially with their great mobility). This opens up the opportunity for the non werewolf players with traditionally good builds to do massive damage with little to no risk, again degrading the PVP experience.

I Love the Game

I love ESO, I have been playing it since it released, but the lack of attention and acknowledgment to issues of this caliber is, and always has been very concerning. As of this post we are going on 1 month of this imbalance running rampant (even Longer for Dragonknight) and I simply find it hard to justify logging on a dealing with all the Imbalances and the users of them. If you guys simply chipped away at balancing issues, and surveyed the PVP community for solutions to issues, It has the potential to make the game significantly healthier and in turn, make it more popular. Id consider this game to be running on a form of brand loyalty; Skyrim was a very popular game and people that did, and do enjoy Skyrim are likely to at some point play this game as a continuation of the experience of the Elder Scrolls. I can say from my own experience that by the time I arrived on the PVP scene, It put me off the game, I thought that I was terrible, it destroyed the whole idea that there could be a continuation of the experience of the elder scrolls. Turns out, I was just bad, but the brand loyalty kept me coming back, the elder scrolls universe is simply too good and Skyrim is simply not enough. With ES6 on the horizon this game has the opportunity to resurge to record high player counts if it can be balanced well and made more palatable to new players. Point is, people will continue to try this game, but allowing slop like this dk corrosive meta, and WW meta to run rampant will put people off the game, both experience and new.

Create a logical progression to understanding PVP and Maintain balance in tune with what players want for PVP and the future can and will be prosperous. If you read this far, thank you! Please share your experiences with werewolves in the replies.

Sorc and dk counter ww so hard . Of you cant beat a ww as sorc, its a skill issue. A jumping shield stacking sorc that you cant even dmg, and suddenly he burst you for 80% hp in one streak.
Sorcs are busted as [snip]
Sorc have better mobility, better burst, better heals etc than a ww.

I agree w DK being strong enough to contend. I haven’t fought a WW on my sorc since pre Shattered paths nerf so I cant speak on where that is now. A big issue is the convergence of high health, very strong heals, high damage, infinite dodge roll, and movement speed so high that AOE doesnt land. These are not things that can be achieved on a non werewolf build. I think in a 1v1 non ww sorc loses every time due to the extreme pressure that ww applies. Im contending with pretty solid sorcs on my arcanist, youd have a hard time convincing me that a werewolf isnt getting through those shields. The only thing sorc/ warden WW doesnt have going for it is burst damage, but that doesnt matter much if you can play the long game due to permanent uptime of the 2 most powerful defensive buffs, and arguably some of the strongest heals in the game. Werewolf is not, not an issue.
[edited to remove quote]

Tendo163 wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

For reference, I am a Sorc Main, though lately I am playing my arcanist (41k Hp, 4600 dmg, 34000 armor, 88% crit dmg, 30% crit chance), Ive been with sorc through thick and thin over the years. I *CANNNOT* kill a well built werewolf in a head on confrontation in any circumstance, and this threshold of imbalance is dangerous for the health of the game.

I play BG more often than Cyrodiil, and I find that around every other match, I queue against 2 sorc werewolves with 40k+ health. Here's what I believe to be the issue;

They DO NOT DIE

Not to sound like a broken record here, but I alone cannot kill a werewolf, best case scenario they cannot kill me and we stalemate. A lot of content creators and people within the game that you may or may not find in these forums, for the most part agree that you simply should just not fight a werewolf, as you will probably not kill it alone. What is bizarre and just outright unacceptable is how long it takes for multiple people to kill a werewolf. Playing BG, you'll find that it takes 3 people (unless dk's corrosive whipping) 30 seconds to 1 minute to kill a werewolf that is actively fighting back and not just dodging and running.

Tug O' War

Similar to Tug O' War, fighting in ESO has what I like to call an Inflection point; It is the point at which one person, whether due to blood thirsty, execute skills, or because the person losing has to flee or go on the defensive, that one person begins to win the fight. This exists between non werewolf players, but this inflection point simply does not exist when fighting werewolves. I've found that when fighting werewolves, you gradually just lose the fight, and they do not. Using CMX I have found my average dps against werewolves to be 5k-6k. Forgive my rhetoric, but I am just not quite understanding how I can come across multiple werewolves with 40-50k health, that can out heal 5-6k Dps while breaking cc and Immobilizations, and also shred through 40k health at 34k armor.

Group PvP

While the issues stated above are problematic themselves, what they open the door to simply just degrades the PVP experience. When queuing BG against solid werewolves, I find that I cant even fight the non werewolf players, the werewolves just do so much damage so fast, that you cannot ignore them (especially with their great mobility). This opens up the opportunity for the non werewolf players with traditionally good builds to do massive damage with little to no risk, again degrading the PVP experience.

I Love the Game

I love ESO, I have been playing it since it released, but the lack of attention and acknowledgment to issues of this caliber is, and always has been very concerning. As of this post we are going on 1 month of this imbalance running rampant (even Longer for Dragonknight) and I simply find it hard to justify logging on a dealing with all the Imbalances and the users of them. If you guys simply chipped away at balancing issues, and surveyed the PVP community for solutions to issues, It has the potential to make the game significantly healthier and in turn, make it more popular. Id consider this game to be running on a form of brand loyalty; Skyrim was a very popular game and people that did, and do enjoy Skyrim are likely to at some point play this game as a continuation of the experience of the Elder Scrolls. I can say from my own experience that by the time I arrived on the PVP scene, It put me off the game, I thought that I was terrible, it destroyed the whole idea that there could be a continuation of the experience of the elder scrolls. Turns out, I was just bad, but the brand loyalty kept me coming back, the elder scrolls universe is simply too good and Skyrim is simply not enough. With ES6 on the horizon this game has the opportunity to resurge to record high player counts if it can be balanced well and made more palatable to new players. Point is, people will continue to try this game, but allowing slop like this dk corrosive meta, and WW meta to run rampant will put people off the game, both experience and new.

Create a logical progression to understanding PVP and Maintain balance in tune with what players want for PVP and the future can and will be prosperous. If you read this far, thank you! Please share your experiences with werewolves in the replies.

Sorc and dk counter ww so hard . Of you cant beat a ww as sorc, its a skill issue. A jumping shield stacking sorc that you cant even dmg, and suddenly he burst you for 80% hp in one streak.
Sorcs are busted as [snip]
Sorc have better mobility, better burst, better heals etc than a ww.

I agree w DK being strong enough to contend. I haven’t fought a WW on my sorc since pre Shattered paths nerf so I cant speak on where that is now. A big issue is the convergence of high health, very strong heals, high damage, infinite dodge roll, and movement speed so high that AOE doesnt land. These are not things that can be achieved on a non werewolf build. I think in a 1v1 non ww sorc loses every time due to the extreme pressure that ww applies. Im contending with pretty solid sorcs on my arcanist, youd have a hard time convincing me that a werewolf isnt getting through those shields. The only thing sorc/ warden WW doesnt have going for it is burst damage, but that doesnt matter much if you can play the long game due to permanent uptime of the 2 most powerful defensive buffs, and arguably some of the strongest heals in the game. Werewolf is not, not an issue.

This game isnt about 1v1 lol. Ww do NOT have the strongest heal in game. Hiricine fortitude heals for 10k with battle spirit. Scribing skill healing soul heals for 20k and apply a dot. Dk have a heal (cant remember the name) that is stronger. And lets not talk about heart of flame.
We are not talking about 1v1. BG , cyrodil etc a good sorc beats ww any time. Those shield stacking sorcs is hard. Fragments hits for 12-16k what ive seen. Sorc have so.mich better burst window. Ww have more consistent dmg. You can heal 3 times as ww and your out of magicka. And if your out of magicka you cant sustain stam.
And i dont wanna talk about DK. Try and fight a decent DK as ww. You all are in here complaining about ww ,when sorc is busted as [snip]
I play blood.for blood stamsorc , and have t met one ww who beats me yet.
I think you guys should look at your skills and build first, before crying if something is OP. 15k hp with 0 crit resist in BG you will be one shot no.matter what
Dosent matter now anyway. There will probably not be any more updateds in this game.
[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

Everyone is howling mad at the werewolves.

It doesn't matter what the OP is playing as, any regular pvper that isn't cheesing Werewolf can agree that Werewolf is broken and so is DK and SORC

You can also play a sorc WW and bash weave to proc your class mastery and get free healing, lmao...

gammelscroll wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

This is 100% true. Werewolf is absolutely broken. Unlike other stuff thats strong (like DK) it doesnt only have strong offense. At the same time it can be built unkillable to single enemies. Not even talking about the fact that it has unlimited sustain and can stay in ww form forever. The strength it has would only be justified if it was build with a 15s uptime and 300+ ult needed to pop again.

You just described DKs...

I think its a skill/build issue. Show me your build you use vs ww?

Feel free to 1v1 me on xbox to show me my "skill issue"

Of course I can kill most werewolves 1v1 but those that know what to do and run around 50k hp cant be killed as long as they pay attention. Thats my point. Im not dying to them but it shouldnt be possible to be unkillable and still deal decent damage that is especially annoying in outnumbered scenarios. And it's not only it's overall strength, it's also the fact that werewolf is extremely easy to play. Theres way too many easy modes in this game and this one might be the worst or at least close to streak spam range gankers.

Nordstern wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

X94 wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the OP is playing as, any regular pvper that isn't cheesing Werewolf can agree that Werewolf is broken and so is DK and SORC

Yep the only people defending those three things only play them exclusively. And for DK, personally, I don't think it should have been reworked first and given a damage and heal increase on all of those skills "just cause". Absolutely bonkers that I struggled to get a 15K tooltip on single target whip and on the same build it's over 28K.

ZOS come on. If you're going to do that, please scale up everyone else's damage. And I don't mean the masteries that force 3 classes to use their terrible skill lines that aren't good in PvP (templar, necro, arcanist). You know what, we can even toss NB in there too to be honest since the masteries on the class are absolute garbage and make 0 difference in a real combat scenario.

I struggled to understand why anyone would think the game is fair or balanced, but I know the names defending it. They play DK, they play WW. And you know what? They still aren't notable tbh. I only remember them because my memory is good, not because they did anything impactful.

But the forums are a place where everyone can pretend to be a god. Me? I'm going to tell the truth. I'll just be firing siege. Seriously. I'm firing siege. I hope those DK and WW look forward to it. It must have hurt badly to have been crushed even with their cheese yesterday. How did it feel to learn that siege is that powerful when there's 6 of them on you and your group?

It was totally neccessary to give dk the damage it got. Not because dk was too weak or not because I wanted to play dk. It was neccessary because cyrodiil is flooded with people that run 40+k hp. Most of them even stack in groups with tons of crosshealing. There needs to be damage as strong as dk has, otherwise pvp wouldnt be fun at all for anyone thats not interested in zerging. I wouldnt care if it was a different class (other than nb, whose general playstyle is super boring imo) but there shouldnt be a nerf to dk before they nerfed all the heal tanks as well. HP cap of 30k would be a great thing for example.

Wow, so it was necessary to buff DK to the point that I can get my old damage output on my DK pre-rework with 45K+ HP, heal more, sustain better, have corrosive and literally become invincible in a 1v1 for the most part -- the same exact tankiness you are complaining about I can reach AND do damage, and you say it was necessary?

I don't buy that line of argumentation. You know, you aren't the only DK that exists on the forums? A lot of people played the class before the rework.

And in my opinion, most of the changes were unwarranted. Do I need to list them all? You know what? Let's get started.

I. Wing change was dumb from a PvP perspective and it's use is exactly as anyone could have predicted -- more tower running, and then a delayed CC that has no real counter outside immovability that also shares the mysterious "lock" issue nearly all knockbacks have on the game. The skill also reduces damage from ranged attacks, which nearly all DoTs fall under, removing a counter that could exist to Corrosive. Wings was already powerful pre-rework, I slotted it even without caring about dragon fire scale's little fireball shooting out because it' so much damage reduction for so little.

II. Whip: I mean come on, the skill has double the tooltip damage it did previously, double the healing, has bonus damage, and it's AoE, and it can be spammed in its powered state more frequently than before. On my DK it heals more than my burst heal on my templar. Wow. I thought ZOS said that skills that attack shouldn't heal so much. That was the rationale behind a lot of the nerfs they handed out, EVEN IN THE SAME PATCH THE REWORK HAPPENED. Absolutely crazy and bonkers inconsistent logic being used. But okay, it's a "rework" so let's just ignore the fact that it goes against the rules the game has had for years, and everyone else got nerfed to abide by.

III. Blood of the Green Dragon / Elder Dragon: In no universe was it a good idea to make Coaglated Blood become an AoE, and then give a buff on top of it. It's not going to be a convincing argument to me that also has healed on this game for it's entire lifetime in PvP, this skill is a problem. It's another skill that can be used and stacked as a one button solution to a problem.

I never even bothered to test it with curse eater or stendarr because even without that, in a group spamming it every other skill, it's powerful and it's out of line. But let's talk about the other morph since that one also got buffed.

Blood of the Green Dragon, seems like it's not that bad on paper. But the problem with it is, like all other HP% healing, it requires no real investment besides stacking HP -- which is too easy and at the root of the tank problem in the first place. It doesn't help that these heals that take no real investment are still buffed by heal modifiers, and nearly all HP% healing counts as a direct heal, which is used to proc the most powerful effects in the game. One of them being that CP skill that lots of people keep quiet about, you know: From the Brink -- which is also a concern with the other morph of this skill and it's AoE heal.

I don't know about you, but somehow this fails to address the tanking issue and looks more like a power up to anyone that wants to be tanky and a ball group to me!

IV. Core of Flame: Buddy, we've already discussed this one in depth. Literally no longer needing to heavy attack on the right builds because of a single skill that sustains, gives a large amount of burst damage, and if you choose the other morph heals HP%. We just covered why HP% is bad in III. No need to beat a dead horse. Do we really need to expand on this, because if I do I'm typing 4-5 pages and the skill will get nerfed for sure. Because maybe you , the forums, and the devs don't know what I know about this skill and how to properly use it to maximize a state where you cannot be defeated simply by spamming this kill and never be able actually face any real pressure.

This skill was when I said "okay, seriously; the balance in the game sucks."

V. Inferno, specifically, incinerate. Again, yet another skill changed to function in a slightly different way, but that difference allowed more stacking of instances of damage. You know, the same thing people were complaining about with the Signet mythic. I see this as an unwarranted buff, but probably one of the lesser egregious ones because unlike the other skills, by itself it's not that good and the skill is different from before BUT I actually preferred the old one more because of how it functioned at range and could be combined in a different way versus the one on live.

VI. Molten Weapons: Again, why was this buff neeeded? Isn't the effect it does on the same level as a 5-piece set called Way of Fire? With Threads of War on a certain status-oblivion DK build, I use this skill and stack over 12 instances of damage thanks to DK built in delayed damage. Someone unlucky will get hit by 16 instances. Can someone explain to me why this skill ever needed to be changed like this in the first place? I cannot see or understand it to be honest.

VII. Passive: Landslide -- come on, why?

VIII. DK masteries : who seriously that looked at templar, NB, arcanist masteries...think that DK masteries are in line? After considering the above, who thinks that they are in line? If someone does, I cannot take them seriously.

But we're only getting started. Because if I go in depth, you better believe not only will you not be able to convince me, you won't be convincing anyone and DK will get more than just Core of Flame and Whip nerfed.

And don't worry, before you say "but Sorc" I have the same exact notes on them as well. After all, besides firing siege, the only thing I do in the game is find broken builds and buggy gear and interactions that are too cheese for me to use, but the people on Discord love it. Because they only want to win.

Notice above I never even mentioned coming out of stealth with a 35K leap absuing riposte and proccing it on your own. There's a lot more if you want to continue. I love teaching after all.

Nordstern wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

X94 wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the OP is playing as, any regular pvper that isn't cheesing Werewolf can agree that Werewolf is broken and so is DK and SORC

Yep the only people defending those three things only play them exclusively. And for DK, personally, I don't think it should have been reworked first and given a damage and heal increase on all of those skills "just cause". Absolutely bonkers that I struggled to get a 15K tooltip on single target whip and on the same build it's over 28K.

ZOS come on. If you're going to do that, please scale up everyone else's damage. And I don't mean the masteries that force 3 classes to use their terrible skill lines that aren't good in PvP (templar, necro, arcanist). You know what, we can even toss NB in there too to be honest since the masteries on the class are absolute garbage and make 0 difference in a real combat scenario.

I struggled to understand why anyone would think the game is fair or balanced, but I know the names defending it. They play DK, they play WW. And you know what? They still aren't notable tbh. I only remember them because my memory is good, not because they did anything impactful.

But the forums are a place where everyone can pretend to be a god. Me? I'm going to tell the truth. I'll just be firing siege. Seriously. I'm firing siege. I hope those DK and WW look forward to it. It must have hurt badly to have been crushed even with their cheese yesterday. How did it feel to learn that siege is that powerful when there's 6 of them on you and your group?

It was totally neccessary to give dk the damage it got. Not because dk was too weak or not because I wanted to play dk. It was neccessary because cyrodiil is flooded with people that run 40+k hp. Most of them even stack in groups with tons of crosshealing. There needs to be damage as strong as dk has, otherwise pvp wouldnt be fun at all for anyone thats not interested in zerging. I wouldnt care if it was a different class (other than nb, whose general playstyle is super boring imo) but there shouldnt be a nerf to dk before they nerfed all the heal tanks as well. HP cap of 30k would be a great thing for example.

Wow, so it was necessary to buff DK to the point that I can get my old damage output on my DK pre-rework with 45K+ HP, heal more, sustain better, have corrosive and literally become invincible in a 1v1 for the most part -- the same exact tankiness you are complaining about I can reach AND do damage, and you say it was necessary?

I don't buy that line of argumentation. You know, you aren't the only DK that exists on the forums? A lot of people played the class before the rework.

And in my opinion, most of the changes were unwarranted. Do I need to list them all? You know what? Let's get started.

I. Wing change was dumb from a PvP perspective and it's use is exactly as anyone could have predicted -- more tower running, and then a delayed CC that has no real counter outside immovability that also shares the mysterious "lock" issue nearly all knockbacks have on the game. The skill also reduces damage from ranged attacks, which nearly all DoTs fall under, removing a counter that could exist to Corrosive. Wings was already powerful pre-rework, I slotted it even without caring about dragon fire scale's little fireball shooting out because it' so much damage reduction for so little.

II. Whip: I mean come on, the skill has double the tooltip damage it did previously, double the healing, has bonus damage, and it's AoE, and it can be spammed in its powered state more frequently than before. On my DK it heals more than my burst heal on my templar. Wow. I thought ZOS said that skills that attack shouldn't heal so much. That was the rationale behind a lot of the nerfs they handed out, EVEN IN THE SAME PATCH THE REWORK HAPPENED. Absolutely crazy and bonkers inconsistent logic being used. But okay, it's a "rework" so let's just ignore the fact that it goes against the rules the game has had for years, and everyone else got nerfed to abide by.

III. Blood of the Green Dragon / Elder Dragon: In no universe was it a good idea to make Coaglated Blood become an AoE, and then give a buff on top of it. It's not going to be a convincing argument to me that also has healed on this game for it's entire lifetime in PvP, this skill is a problem. It's another skill that can be used and stacked as a one button solution to a problem.

I never even bothered to test it with curse eater or stendarr because even without that, in a group spamming it every other skill, it's powerful and it's out of line. But let's talk about the other morph since that one also got buffed.

Blood of the Green Dragon, seems like it's not that bad on paper. But the problem with it is, like all other HP% healing, it requires no real investment besides stacking HP -- which is too easy and at the root of the tank problem in the first place. It doesn't help that these heals that take no real investment are still buffed by heal modifiers, and nearly all HP% healing counts as a direct heal, which is used to proc the most powerful effects in the game. One of them being that CP skill that lots of people keep quiet about, you know: From the Brink -- which is also a concern with the other morph of this skill and it's AoE heal.

I don't know about you, but somehow this fails to address the tanking issue and looks more like a power up to anyone that wants to be tanky and a ball group to me!

IV. Core of Flame: Buddy, we've already discussed this one in depth. Literally no longer needing to heavy attack on the right builds because of a single skill that sustains, gives a large amount of burst damage, and if you choose the other morph heals HP%. We just covered why HP% is bad in III. No need to beat a dead horse. Do we really need to expand on this, because if I do I'm typing 4-5 pages and the skill will get nerfed for sure. Because maybe you , the forums, and the devs don't know what I know about this skill and how to properly use it to maximize a state where you cannot be defeated simply by spamming this kill and never be able actually face any real pressure.

This skill was when I said "okay, seriously; the balance in the game sucks."

V. Inferno, specifically, incinerate. Again, yet another skill changed to function in a slightly different way, but that difference allowed more stacking of instances of damage. You know, the same thing people were complaining about with the Signet mythic. I see this as an unwarranted buff, but probably one of the lesser egregious ones because unlike the other skills, by itself it's not that good and the skill is different from before BUT I actually preferred the old one more because of how it functioned at range and could be combined in a different way versus the one on live.

VI. Molten Weapons: Again, why was this buff neeeded? Isn't the effect it does on the same level as a 5-piece set called Way of Fire? With Threads of War on a certain status-oblivion DK build, I use this skill and stack over 12 instances of damage thanks to DK built in delayed damage. Someone unlucky will get hit by 16 instances. Can someone explain to me why this skill ever needed to be changed like this in the first place? I cannot see or understand it to be honest.

VII. Passive: Landslide -- come on, why?

VIII. DK masteries : who seriously that looked at templar, NB, arcanist masteries...think that DK masteries are in line? After considering the above, who thinks that they are in line? If someone does, I cannot take them seriously.

But we're only getting started. Because if I go in depth, you better believe not only will you not be able to convince me, you won't be convincing anyone and DK will get more than just Core of Flame and Whip nerfed.

And don't worry, before you say "but Sorc" I have the same exact notes on them as well. After all, besides firing siege, the only thing I do in the game is find broken builds and buggy gear and interactions that are too cheese for me to use, but the people on Discord love it. Because they only want to win.

Notice above I never even mentioned coming out of stealth with a 35K leap absuing riposte and proccing it on your own. There's a lot more if you want to continue. I love teaching after all.

Where should I start...

Running 45k hp shouldnt be possible at all and if you run it on dk you might deal the same damage you did before but you still wont deal the insane damage people complain about.

Wings dont reduce dot damage, thats just wrong.

Flame Lash could need a nerf, whip doesnt as it cant be spammed with buffed damage.

The aoe heal of dragon blood isnt strong, youre making up things now.

My argument was clear: there needs to be a proper counter to kill the amount of pvp tanks in the game these days. Just because there can be dk tanks as well doesnt mean im wrong.

I guarantee you that I could kill you even if you spam Core of Flame in perma block or do whatever you want to do. Also sorc gets almost unlimited sustain as well now and they dont even have to spam a skill every 4 seconds.

Afaik inferno only changed in the way it works, not in the way it can be stacked with other damage. Was 5s before as well.

Molten weapons isnt that strong. I even changed it for 2h wd buff just because that one pops more consistent with bar swap animation cancel.

Landslide is a great concept.

Cherry picking once again. Yes, the 3 mentioned classes are inferior right now but others arent with the class masteries.

Theres stuff like pulse gank or werewolves in this game that are super strong and hardly require any skill to be succesfull with. Dk is different. A medium skilled player will still have no chance even if they run dk. And at least from my experience thats the problem people have. The ones that complain the loudest were trying to use dk as well. But when they still died against other dks all the time they started complaining.

Ah, a lot of words to say you basically don't know any better. Okay.

Nordstern wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

X94 wrote: »

It doesn't matter what the OP is playing as, any regular pvper that isn't cheesing Werewolf can agree that Werewolf is broken and so is DK and SORC

Yep the only people defending those three things only play them exclusively. And for DK, personally, I don't think it should have been reworked first and given a damage and heal increase on all of those skills "just cause". Absolutely bonkers that I struggled to get a 15K tooltip on single target whip and on the same build it's over 28K.

ZOS come on. If you're going to do that, please scale up everyone else's damage. And I don't mean the masteries that force 3 classes to use their terrible skill lines that aren't good in PvP (templar, necro, arcanist). You know what, we can even toss NB in there too to be honest since the masteries on the class are absolute garbage and make 0 difference in a real combat scenario.

I struggled to understand why anyone would think the game is fair or balanced, but I know the names defending it. They play DK, they play WW. And you know what? They still aren't notable tbh. I only remember them because my memory is good, not because they did anything impactful.

But the forums are a place where everyone can pretend to be a god. Me? I'm going to tell the truth. I'll just be firing siege. Seriously. I'm firing siege. I hope those DK and WW look forward to it. It must have hurt badly to have been crushed even with their cheese yesterday. How did it feel to learn that siege is that powerful when there's 6 of them on you and your group?

It was totally neccessary to give dk the damage it got. Not because dk was too weak or not because I wanted to play dk. It was neccessary because cyrodiil is flooded with people that run 40+k hp. Most of them even stack in groups with tons of crosshealing. There needs to be damage as strong as dk has, otherwise pvp wouldnt be fun at all for anyone thats not interested in zerging. I wouldnt care if it was a different class (other than nb, whose general playstyle is super boring imo) but there shouldnt be a nerf to dk before they nerfed all the heal tanks as well. HP cap of 30k would be a great thing for example.

Wow, so it was necessary to buff DK to the point that I can get my old damage output on my DK pre-rework with 45K+ HP, heal more, sustain better, have corrosive and literally become invincible in a 1v1 for the most part -- the same exact tankiness you are complaining about I can reach AND do damage, and you say it was necessary?

I don't buy that line of argumentation. You know, you aren't the only DK that exists on the forums? A lot of people played the class before the rework.

And in my opinion, most of the changes were unwarranted. Do I need to list them all? You know what? Let's get started.

I. Wing change was dumb from a PvP perspective and it's use is exactly as anyone could have predicted -- more tower running, and then a delayed CC that has no real counter outside immovability that also shares the mysterious "lock" issue nearly all knockbacks have on the game. The skill also reduces damage from ranged attacks, which nearly all DoTs fall under, removing a counter that could exist to Corrosive. Wings was already powerful pre-rework, I slotted it even without caring about dragon fire scale's little fireball shooting out because it' so much damage reduction for so little.

II. Whip: I mean come on, the skill has double the tooltip damage it did previously, double the healing, has bonus damage, and it's AoE, and it can be spammed in its powered state more frequently than before. On my DK it heals more than my burst heal on my templar. Wow. I thought ZOS said that skills that attack shouldn't heal so much. That was the rationale behind a lot of the nerfs they handed out, EVEN IN THE SAME PATCH THE REWORK HAPPENED. Absolutely crazy and bonkers inconsistent logic being used. But okay, it's a "rework" so let's just ignore the fact that it goes against the rules the game has had for years, and everyone else got nerfed to abide by.

III. Blood of the Green Dragon / Elder Dragon: In no universe was it a good idea to make Coaglated Blood become an AoE, and then give a buff on top of it. It's not going to be a convincing argument to me that also has healed on this game for it's entire lifetime in PvP, this skill is a problem. It's another skill that can be used and stacked as a one button solution to a problem.

I never even bothered to test it with curse eater or stendarr because even without that, in a group spamming it every other skill, it's powerful and it's out of line. But let's talk about the other morph since that one also got buffed.

Blood of the Green Dragon, seems like it's not that bad on paper. But the problem with it is, like all other HP% healing, it requires no real investment besides stacking HP -- which is too easy and at the root of the tank problem in the first place. It doesn't help that these heals that take no real investment are still buffed by heal modifiers, and nearly all HP% healing counts as a direct heal, which is used to proc the most powerful effects in the game. One of them being that CP skill that lots of people keep quiet about, you know: From the Brink -- which is also a concern with the other morph of this skill and it's AoE heal.

I don't know about you, but somehow this fails to address the tanking issue and looks more like a power up to anyone that wants to be tanky and a ball group to me!

IV. Core of Flame: Buddy, we've already discussed this one in depth. Literally no longer needing to heavy attack on the right builds because of a single skill that sustains, gives a large amount of burst damage, and if you choose the other morph heals HP%. We just covered why HP% is bad in III. No need to beat a dead horse. Do we really need to expand on this, because if I do I'm typing 4-5 pages and the skill will get nerfed for sure. Because maybe you , the forums, and the devs don't know what I know about this skill and how to properly use it to maximize a state where you cannot be defeated simply by spamming this kill and never be able actually face any real pressure.

This skill was when I said "okay, seriously; the balance in the game sucks."

V. Inferno, specifically, incinerate. Again, yet another skill changed to function in a slightly different way, but that difference allowed more stacking of instances of damage. You know, the same thing people were complaining about with the Signet mythic. I see this as an unwarranted buff, but probably one of the lesser egregious ones because unlike the other skills, by itself it's not that good and the skill is different from before BUT I actually preferred the old one more because of how it functioned at range and could be combined in a different way versus the one on live.

VI. Molten Weapons: Again, why was this buff neeeded? Isn't the effect it does on the same level as a 5-piece set called Way of Fire? With Threads of War on a certain status-oblivion DK build, I use this skill and stack over 12 instances of damage thanks to DK built in delayed damage. Someone unlucky will get hit by 16 instances. Can someone explain to me why this skill ever needed to be changed like this in the first place? I cannot see or understand it to be honest.

VII. Passive: Landslide -- come on, why?

VIII. DK masteries : who seriously that looked at templar, NB, arcanist masteries...think that DK masteries are in line? After considering the above, who thinks that they are in line? If someone does, I cannot take them seriously.

But we're only getting started. Because if I go in depth, you better believe not only will you not be able to convince me, you won't be convincing anyone and DK will get more than just Core of Flame and Whip nerfed.

And don't worry, before you say "but Sorc" I have the same exact notes on them as well. After all, besides firing siege, the only thing I do in the game is find broken builds and buggy gear and interactions that are too cheese for me to use, but the people on Discord love it. Because they only want to win.

Notice above I never even mentioned coming out of stealth with a 35K leap absuing riposte and proccing it on your own. There's a lot more if you want to continue. I love teaching after all.

Where should I start...

Running 45k hp shouldnt be possible at all and if you run it on dk you might deal the same damage you did before but you still wont deal the insane damage people complain about.

Wings dont reduce dot damage, thats just wrong.

Flame Lash could need a nerf, whip doesnt as it cant be spammed with buffed damage.

The aoe heal of dragon blood isnt strong, youre making up things now.

My argument was clear: there needs to be a proper counter to kill the amount of pvp tanks in the game these days. Just because there can be dk tanks as well doesnt mean im wrong.

I guarantee you that I could kill you even if you spam Core of Flame in perma block or do whatever you want to do. Also sorc gets almost unlimited sustain as well now and they dont even have to spam a skill every 4 seconds.

Afaik inferno only changed in the way it works, not in the way it can be stacked with other damage. Was 5s before as well.

Molten weapons isnt that strong. I even changed it for 2h wd buff just because that one pops more consistent with bar swap animation cancel.

Landslide is a great concept.

Cherry picking once again. Yes, the 3 mentioned classes are inferior right now but others arent with the class masteries.

Theres stuff like pulse gank or werewolves in this game that are super strong and hardly require any skill to be succesfull with. Dk is different. A medium skilled player will still have no chance even if they run dk. And at least from my experience thats the problem people have. The ones that complain the loudest were trying to use dk as well. But when they still died against other dks all the time they started complaining.

I'm still having sooooo bizarre feelings that people are defending how OP DK is. It is just.. complete madness, these people are behaving like kindergarteners.. self-serving bias and self-choice-supporting bias is crazy strong in some people. I'm literally unable to fathom how somebody can treat that only 2 classes out of 7 are viable as okay. The sense of justice and fairness in many people are just so frustratingly weak.

Nordstern wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

Nordstern wrote: »

This is 100% true. Werewolf is absolutely broken. Unlike other stuff thats strong (like DK) it doesnt only have strong offense. At the same time it can be built unkillable to single enemies. Not even talking about the fact that it has unlimited sustain and can stay in ww form forever. The strength it has would only be justified if it was build with a 15s uptime and 300+ ult needed to pop again.

You just described DKs...

I think its a skill/build issue. Show me your build you use vs ww?

Feel free to 1v1 me on xbox to show me my "skill issue"

Of course I can kill most werewolves 1v1 but those that know what to do and run around 50k hp cant be killed as long as they pay attention. Thats my point. Im not dying to them but it shouldnt be possible to be unkillable and still deal decent damage that is especially annoying in outnumbered scenarios. And it's not only it's overall strength, it's also the fact that werewolf is extremely easy to play. Theres way too many easy modes in this game and this one might be the worst or at least close to streak spam range gankers.

If a ww run around with 50-60k hp. They do almost no dmg. Then its a skill issue if you die. Show me your build? So we can see what your doing wrong. Sure ill dual you with my Templar. I dont even play ww, and never had problems with them.
As for now, DKs and shield stacking sorcs are the main issue.
I challenge you to go cyrodil and 1v1 a shield stacking sorc or a good pyrebrand/shared pain dk as a werewolf.
Maybe you stop cry then

gammelscroll wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

gammelscroll wrote: »

Tendo163 wrote: »

For reference, I am a Sorc Main, though lately I am playing my arcanist (41k Hp, 4600 dmg, 34000 armor, 88% crit dmg, 30% crit chance), Ive been with sorc through thick and thin over the years. I *CANNNOT* kill a well built werewolf in a head on confrontation in any circumstance, and this threshold of imbalance is dangerous for the health of the game.

I play BG more often than Cyrodiil, and I find that around every other match, I queue against 2 sorc werewolves with 40k+ health. Here's what I believe to be the issue;

They DO NOT DIE

Not to sound like a broken record here, but I alone cannot kill a werewolf, best case scenario they cannot kill me and we stalemate. A lot of content creators and people within the game that you may or may not find in these forums, for the most part agree that you simply should just not fight a werewolf, as you will probably not kill it alone. What is bizarre and just outright unacceptable is how long it takes for multiple people to kill a werewolf. Playing BG, you'll find that it takes 3 people (unless dk's corrosive whipping) 30 seconds to 1 minute to kill a werewolf that is actively fighting back and not just dodging and running.

Tug O' War

Similar to Tug O' War, fighting in ESO has what I like to call an Inflection point; It is the point at which one person, whether due to blood thirsty, execute skills, or because the person losing has to flee or go on the defensive, that one person begins to win the fight. This exists between non werewolf players, but this inflection point simply does not exist when fighting werewolves. I've found that when fighting werewolves, you gradually just lose the fight, and they do not. Using CMX I have found my average dps against werewolves to be 5k-6k. Forgive my rhetoric, but I am just not quite understanding how I can come across multiple werewolves with 40-50k health, that can out heal 5-6k Dps while breaking cc and Immobilizations, and also shred through 40k health at 34k armor.

Group PvP

While the issues stated above are problematic themselves, what they open the door to simply just degrades the PVP experience. When queuing BG against solid werewolves, I find that I cant even fight the non werewolf players, the werewolves just do so much damage so fast, that you cannot ignore them (especially with their great mobility). This opens up the opportunity for the non werewolf players with traditionally good builds to do massive damage with little to no risk, again degrading the PVP experience.

I Love the Game

I love ESO, I have been playing it since it released, but the lack of attention and acknowledgment to issues of this caliber is, and always has been very concerning. As of this post we are going on 1 month of this imbalance running rampant (even Longer for Dragonknight) and I simply find it hard to justify logging on a dealing with all the Imbalances and the users of them. If you guys simply chipped away at balancing issues, and surveyed the PVP community for solutions to issues, It has the potential to make the game significantly healthier and in turn, make it more popular. Id consider this game to be running on a form of brand loyalty; Skyrim was a very popular game and people that did, and do enjoy Skyrim are likely to at some point play this game as a continuation of the experience of the Elder Scrolls. I can say from my own experience that by the time I arrived on the PVP scene, It put me off the game, I thought that I was terrible, it destroyed the whole idea that there could be a continuation of the experience of the elder scrolls. Turns out, I was just bad, but the brand loyalty kept me coming back, the elder scrolls universe is simply too good and Skyrim is simply not enough. With ES6 on the horizon this game has the opportunity to resurge to record high player counts if it can be balanced well and made more palatable to new players. Point is, people will continue to try this game, but allowing slop like this dk corrosive meta, and WW meta to run rampant will put people off the game, both experience and new.

Create a logical progression to understanding PVP and Maintain balance in tune with what players want for PVP and the future can and will be prosperous. If you read this far, thank you! Please share your experiences with werewolves in the replies.

Sorc and dk counter ww so hard . Of you cant beat a ww as sorc, its a skill issue. A jumping shield stacking sorc that you cant even dmg, and suddenly he burst you for 80% hp in one streak.
Sorcs are busted as [snip]
Sorc have better mobility, better burst, better heals etc than a ww.

I agree w DK being strong enough to contend. I haven’t fought a WW on my sorc since pre Shattered paths nerf so I cant speak on where that is now. A big issue is the convergence of high health, very strong heals, high damage, infinite dodge roll, and movement speed so high that AOE doesnt land. These are not things that can be achieved on a non werewolf build. I think in a 1v1 non ww sorc loses every time due to the extreme pressure that ww applies. Im contending with pretty solid sorcs on my arcanist, youd have a hard time convincing me that a werewolf isnt getting through those shields. The only thing sorc/ warden WW doesnt have going for it is burst damage, but that doesnt matter much if you can play the long game due to permanent uptime of the 2 most powerful defensive buffs, and arguably some of the strongest heals in the game. Werewolf is not, not an issue.

This game isnt about 1v1 lol. Ww do NOT have the strongest heal in game. Hiricine fortitude heals for 10k with battle spirit. Scribing skill healing soul heals for 20k and apply a dot. Dk have a heal (cant remember the name) that is stronger. And lets not talk about heart of flame.
We are not talking about 1v1. BG , cyrodil etc a good sorc beats ww any time. Those shield stacking sorcs is hard. Fragments hits for 12-16k what ive seen. Sorc have so.mich better burst window. Ww have more consistent dmg. You can heal 3 times as ww and your out of magicka. And if your out of magicka you cant sustain stam.
And i dont wanna talk about DK. Try and fight a decent DK as ww. You all are in here complaining about ww ,when sorc is busted as [snip]
I play blood.for blood stamsorc , and have t met one ww who beats me yet.
I think you guys should look at your skills and build first, before crying if something is OP. 15k hp with 0 crit resist in BG you will be one shot no.matter what
Dosent matter now anyway. There will probably not be any more updateds in this game.
[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]

My goal in bringing attention to the imbalance in WW is not so it becomes more palatable in 1v1, but so it can bring PVP back to a point of equilibrium. But I am using werewolf in a 1v1 as a reference; if werewolf cannot be killed by 1 person (whoever it may be), 4 werewolves will not be able to be killed by 4 people. Pretty simple, and this is exactly how I have observed it to be in BG and a little bit in cyro. Whoever has the most werewolves/ DK’s wins. Again, anyone trying to pretend that this is not a problem is either using dk, or WW.