Why are daily bonus dungeon rewards only applied to random dungeons?

Ardriel · July 7

nb_rich wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

You get a reward for a random dungeon because it’s random. That means there’s a certain amount of risk involved, and that risk is rewarded. You might be lucky and get FG1, or you might be unlucky and end up with a difficult DLC dungeon. There are actually DLC dungeons that can turn into a real ordeal even on Normal difficulty with certain players.
There’s no need to reward players for specifically choosing a dungeon. Loot and a little XP are already reward enough.

The risk-reward is not even worth it. Firstly you get the same xp and transmutes from the daily regardless if you pick vet or normal, so having random vet que is pretty much pointless.

When it comes to thinking someone shouldn’t be rewarded for selecting their own dungeon that can go either way. I dont believe if I select a vet DLC dungeon, someone with no eso plus or dlcs should be awarded more then me because they are doing random normal dungeons. Even with the normal and vet randoms, why are they the same daily rewards? I’m not even getting extra transmutes for completing a random vet dungeon instead of a random normal dungeon. Makes no sense to me personally

Of course it's unfair to get the same reward for a random veteran dungeon as for a random normal dungeon. I agree with that.
But that's not what this discussion is about. The OP wants to receive this reward for the first dungeon each day—whether using the Dungeon Finder, playing solo, or any other way. And I think it would be inappropriate to give a reward just for doing say FG1 normal every day.

LootAllTheStuff · July 7

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I do think the system needs a small rework.

We probably don't need random normal dungeon XP rewards. It incentivises highCP players to grind XP by rushing dungeons, which makes for an absolutely terrible first-time dungeon experience for others. Instead they could increase the XP that dungeon quests provide so that doing the dungeons is still encouraged for new players but highCP players will gravitate more towards the daily random veteran dungeons instead, once they have completed all the dungeon quests.
That should be enough to change the dungeon etiquette in normal dungeons for the better and make veteran dungeons in general more popular - which is something everyone can appreciate, provided the XP is actually worthwhile.

I'm sitting around 1600 CP, and I hate people who rush dungeons, especially when they skip chests! (My user name definitely checks out). Please don't paint with such a broad brush.

To your other suggestion: I don't think higher XP for completing vet dungeons would stop people rushing; if you want to really do that, you'd need to make the total XP contingent on completing side objectives and clearing mobs along the way. If the bulk of the XP is earned for killing the final boss, people are still going to speed-run so they can do more dungeons in the same time.

DenverRalphy · July 7

Ardriel wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

You get a reward for a random dungeon because it’s random. That means there’s a certain amount of risk involved, and that risk is rewarded. You might be lucky and get FG1, or you might be unlucky and end up with a difficult DLC dungeon. There are actually DLC dungeons that can turn into a real ordeal even on Normal difficulty with certain players.
There’s no need to reward players for specifically choosing a dungeon. Loot and a little XP are already reward enough.

The risk-reward is not even worth it. Firstly you get the same xp and transmutes from the daily regardless if you pick vet or normal, so having random vet que is pretty much pointless.

When it comes to thinking someone shouldn’t be rewarded for selecting their own dungeon that can go either way. I dont believe if I select a vet DLC dungeon, someone with no eso plus or dlcs should be awarded more then me because they are doing random normal dungeons. Even with the normal and vet randoms, why are they the same daily rewards? I’m not even getting extra transmutes for completing a random vet dungeon instead of a random normal dungeon. Makes no sense to me personally

Of course it's unfair to get the same reward for a random veteran dungeon as for a random normal dungeon. I agree with that.
But that's not what this discussion is about. The OP wants to receive this reward for the first dungeon each day—whether using the Dungeon Finder, playing solo, or any other way. And I think it would be inappropriate to give a reward just for doing say FG1 normal every day.

Given that the person you're replying to is the OP you're referring too.. they know very well what they're asking for. They're just doubling down on it.

Ratzkifal · July 8

Dharmon wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I don't see the issue. You can still do normal dungeons, you just don't get extra rewards for a daily random normal. If you are at 1000CP while also not being high skill or ability, you also aren't in need to get massive amounts of XP fast for any reason whatsoever. There are plenty of ways to gain XP in this game if you are trying to level something. You can quest while using the skill, you can grind out an area with high enemy density, dolmen surf in Alik'r, you can do crafting writs and master writs while having the skill slotted. You don't need the daily random dungeon for that.
When I'm talking about a high CP player rushing through a dungeon and ruining the experience for a new player, I'm not talking about a low skill player at a high champion point count. But that doesn't make the scenario where rushing happens any less real. The first dungeons you do are people's first impressions of dungeons as a whole, and also of the cooperative aspects of the playerbase as a whole. Giving players bad first impressions is way worse than not giving high CP players an easy way to get XP, because those players don't even stick around long enough to reach highCP levels.
Nobody complains about randoms in vets not knowing the mechanics. People complain about randoms not telling they don't know the mechanics, or about people not willing or able to listen/learn the mechanics, or simply preventing a successful completion of the dungeon in whatever way, in which case, stick to the normal dungeons until you're ready.

I do agree that increasing the rewards on random veteran dungeons would work as an alternative. I'd be fine with that too so long as the increase feels worth it and you can only get the rewards from one - normal or vet.

Not sure about the "If you are at 1000CP while also not being high skill or ability, you also aren't in need to get massive amounts of XP fast for any reason whatsoever." thing. It boggles the mind that someone can arbitrarily say at such and such cp level, you shall get less rewards from activities while the xp for each CP level is increasing steadily the higher you get.
I didnt set foot in a dungeon till I had 1300ish CP and was (then) utterly clueless in how to deal appreciable damage, with your idea I would be resorting to level thru expensive mater writs and the like. Back then I totally appreciated the high dps people burning the dungeon down and carrying me to the end, but thats just me.

The root of the problem raised in the last few posts is the dlc vs basegame dungeons popping up in the random queue.
A better solution might be a separate random queue for those both on normal and on vet, perhaps with separate rewards.
That way when you queue as fake tank on a random normal or vet dlc, you know the group may immediately votekick you if you dont show the traits of a real tank, aka high health, sword and shield and taunt which would be obvious in short order for the latter 2 traits.

Im not convinced blocking or severely penalizing high CP players from using the random normal dungeon queue is a fair or good solution to the rushing or fake tank aspect. I have seen level 10-49s rush from door to door, as well as low cp ones (10-200).
Its not the CP that makes a player annoying and detrimental to other players, it is their mindset.
A egoistic runner is gonna run because its what they think will get them to the end reward fastest, even if in truth they often get stuck waiting at a door with aggro and spending more time waiting there than it would take to kill the trash they avoid.

Id rather see a good solution to address that, but I think that will be very hard for any of us.
Other games block people ignoring each other from being matched to together in queues, perhaps that.

That's not what I said. This is not about the amount of CP you have. Whether you are lvl10 or at 3600CP, doesn't matter. I think receiving a big chunk of XP like that is detrimental for new players because it puts their XP curve way ahead of their learning curve, and high performing players are incentivised to play the same content that's not geared towards them because it's the efficient thing to do. That causes friction - that's the issue I'm trying to resolve here. And I'm also calling into question what a low performing player with high CP actually needs that XP for, because I don't see that as a penalty for them unless someone can explain to me what that XP supposed to accomplish. The transmute gems we can move into pledges if that's the issue (which you can do on normal btw).
Separating DLC and and nonDLC dungeons is another good suggestion in my opinion, because not all veteran dungeons are created equal. And 300CP players with no gear sets that just completed veteran Blackheart Haven on hardmode then want to do Lair of Maarselok on hardmode. Separating those to not be in the same random queue is probably a good idea.

KapiteinBoterham · July 8

Oh no no no no no this would completely kill dungeons entirely.

What is curious tho is why the rewards for normal dungeons and veteran dungeons are EXACTLY THE SAME. There is a clear distinction in time/effort spent so why are the reward exactly the same???

Ratzkifal · July 8

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

I do think the system needs a small rework.

We probably don't need random normal dungeon XP rewards. It incentivises highCP players to grind XP by rushing dungeons, which makes for an absolutely terrible first-time dungeon experience for others. Instead they could increase the XP that dungeon quests provide so that doing the dungeons is still encouraged for new players but highCP players will gravitate more towards the daily random veteran dungeons instead, once they have completed all the dungeon quests.
That should be enough to change the dungeon etiquette in normal dungeons for the better and make veteran dungeons in general more popular - which is something everyone can appreciate, provided the XP is actually worthwhile.

I'm sitting around 1600 CP, and I hate people who rush dungeons, especially when they skip chests! (My user name definitely checks out). Please don't paint with such a broad brush.

To your other suggestion: I don't think higher XP for completing vet dungeons would stop people rushing; if you want to really do that, you'd need to make the total XP contingent on completing side objectives and clearing mobs along the way. If the bulk of the XP is earned for killing the final boss, people are still going to speed-run so they can do more dungeons in the same time.

Sure. That wasn't meant to imply "all high CP players rush normal dungeons" but the players that do rush are generally highCP and are doing those dungeons for completely different reasons than new players dipping their does into the dungeon finder for the first time. I don't mind people rushing veteran dungeons. More power to them.

Tying the amount of XP to extra objectives is a good idea, but I feel like even that could cause some issues depending on the dungeon and I suspect developing such a complex system might be a more trouble than its worth. If it's just something as simple as counting the number of bosses killed, that could work. If it's meant to include puzzles and such, I'm not so sure.

I know ZOS thinks solo dungeons are a good idea to try and solve this exact issue, but personally, I disagree. As a parallel, the introduction of housing killed RP guilds in this game because you couldn't run into players during roleplay out in the world anymore like you used to. They were all at home, hidden from sight. Growth for them dried up sneakily as a result. Guild finder wasn't a thing yet and not everyone was comfortable spamming zone chat with advertisement. I fear solo dungeons could be a similar step in the wrong direction for the dungeon experience. Hopefully the custom groups in the group finder (not dungeon finder) can mitigate that. Sadly new players are not really making use of that feature, so the issue remains.

Arunei · July 8

To be fair, us RPers gravitate more towards player Housing for a number of reasons than doing it out in the world. Namely we can set up the environment to whatever we'd like the setting to be, complete with time of day and even weather depending on the House and what weather settings it allows. Plus trolls love crashing RP, just look at any current RP hub in the world. It's next to impossible to troll in a player House though, since a person not only needs access but can be kicked at and banned within a few seconds if they somehow do get in.

Solo Dungeons vs Group Dungeons isn't really comparable. Housing didn't kill open world RP, trolls and the inability to control different components (which originally was just making a place look how you wanted the scene to be portrayed, as much as is possible within ESO's ability anyway). Solo Dungeons have different rewards and a different system tied to them, as well as a repeatable quest. Plus it makes no sense to offer any sort of "get extra rewards when you run your first on each character" because the whole point of Random Dailies being a thing for Group Dungones is to help fill groups for specific Dungeons.

Solo Dungeons serve a different purpose to Group Dungeons so there wouldn't be anything to cause people to stop doing the latter in favor of the former. Especially since, again, both offer different rewards.

Dharmon · July 8

Arunei wrote: »

Solo Dungeons serve a different purpose to Group Dungeons so there wouldn't be anything to cause people to stop doing the latter in favor of the former. Especially since, again, both offer different rewards.

Did I miss something here? are you referring to the 2 solo arenas where you can test yourself and get some decent stuff from the last boss?

If so they really only give the loot and sense of accomplishment, no big exp or transmuts so not relevant to this discussion imo-

Dharmon · July 8

Ratzkifal wrote: »

That's not what I said. This is not about the amount of CP you have. Whether you are lvl10 or at 3600CP, doesn't matter. I think receiving a big chunk of XP like that is detrimental for new players because it puts their XP curve way ahead of their learning curve, and high performing players are incentivised to play the same content that's not geared towards them because it's the efficient thing to do. That causes friction - that's the issue I'm trying to resolve here. And I'm also calling into question what a low performing player with high CP actually needs that XP for, because I don't see that as a penalty for them unless someone can explain to me what that XP supposed to accomplish. The transmute gems we can move into pledges if that's the issue (which you can do on normal btw).
Separating DLC and and nonDLC dungeons is another good suggestion in my opinion, because not all veteran dungeons are created equal. And 300CP players with no gear sets that just completed veteran Blackheart Haven on hardmode then want to do Lair of Maarselok on hardmode. Separating those to not be in the same random queue is probably a good idea.

What players want exp and other rewards for is their own business really. I would guess to build characters and thats a good thing.
The issue here is how they play along with others when doing the dailies and cause friction, as OP inadvertently highlighted.
In everquest highlevel mobs would summon players (after being damaged) every 10 seconds or so if they ran away, forcing a resolution to aggro the hard way.
A similar way in ESO could be having trash bypassed with aggro being teleported into next bossfight, it would be a efficicent way to incentivize players to clear trash. Clearing all that have the benefit of getting out of combat and chat with npcs if needed for quests. It seems to me that medium long dungeons give enough xp to rival the daily bonus exp for first dungeon, so clearing stuff is a good thing.

Moving transmutes to pledges would potentially reduce participation in the random queue and reduce chances of getting a group for non pledge dungeons when you farm sets and or quests. Dont think thats a good idea.

Quest friction: many of those quests are written with lots of yapping and finally you have to talk with the npc to trigger progress. Looking a vaults of madness, selens web and some other really annoying ones out there. A rewrite of the triggers on those dungeons with loquacious npcs would be reduce the forced wait times inside the dungeons. I also wish people picking up quests would speak up and state they are on the quest so the group can pace itself according to the particular dungeon. A separate issue I guess.

thorwyn · July 8

Why are daily bonus dungeon rewards only applied to random dungeons? Bookmark

Because the mobs in FG1 would all suffer from burn-out after one week.

LootAllTheStuff · July 8

Dharmon wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Solo Dungeons serve a different purpose to Group Dungeons so there wouldn't be anything to cause people to stop doing the latter in favor of the former. Especially since, again, both offer different rewards.

Did I miss something here? are you referring to the 2 solo arenas where you can test yourself and get some decent stuff from the last boss?

If so they really only give the loot and sense of accomplishment, no big exp or transmuts so not relevant to this discussion imo-

Part of the road map for the next while included a solo mode for dungeons. Whether we get that in update 51 now is an open question given the layoffs - we've already been told that the remaining team will need to revise the timelines.

Dharmon · July 8

LootAllTheStuff wrote: »

Part of the road map for the next while included a solo mode for dungeons. Whether we get that in update 51 now is an open question given the layoffs - we've already been told that the remaining team will need to revise the timelines.

Thanks. Guess it will be awhile till season 2 and that feature after the layoffs.
Shame, Id like to see moon hunter keep go solo so it doesnt pop on every 5th queue

Arunei · July 8

Dharmon wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Solo Dungeons serve a different purpose to Group Dungeons so there wouldn't be anything to cause people to stop doing the latter in favor of the former. Especially since, again, both offer different rewards.

Did I miss something here? are you referring to the 2 solo arenas where you can test yourself and get some decent stuff from the last boss?

If so they really only give the loot and sense of accomplishment, no big exp or transmuts so not relevant to this discussion imo-

Since what I meant was explained already, I'll add that unless I'm forgetting something from the stream we don't know for sure if the Solo Dungeons will have extra experience or Transmutes tied to them or not. But because the whole point of them being rewards for doing Random Dailies is to help fill the groups of specific Dungeons, I don't see why they'd need to encourage people to do Solo Dungeons since there's no one to help.

Dharmon · July 8

Arunei wrote: »

Since what I meant was explained already, I'll add that unless I'm forgetting something from the stream we don't know for sure if the Solo Dungeons will have extra experience or Transmutes tied to them or not. But because the whole point of them being rewards for doing Random Dailies is to help fill the groups of specific Dungeons, I don't see why they'd need to encourage people to do Solo Dungeons since there's no one to help.

Sounds reasonable, getting random daily rewards for group dungeons in solo would be weird.
If people can score curated jewelry/weapon/shields and farm in reasonable time without the queueing wait would possibly alleviate the rampages in MHK by werewolf enthusiasts in the queues.

reazea · July 8

Ardriel wrote: »

nb_rich wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

You get a reward for a random dungeon because it’s random. That means there’s a certain amount of risk involved, and that risk is rewarded. You might be lucky and get FG1, or you might be unlucky and end up with a difficult DLC dungeon. There are actually DLC dungeons that can turn into a real ordeal even on Normal difficulty with certain players.
There’s no need to reward players for specifically choosing a dungeon. Loot and a little XP are already reward enough.

The risk-reward is not even worth it. Firstly you get the same xp and transmutes from the daily regardless if you pick vet or normal, so having random vet que is pretty much pointless.

When it comes to thinking someone shouldn’t be rewarded for selecting their own dungeon that can go either way. I dont believe if I select a vet DLC dungeon, someone with no eso plus or dlcs should be awarded more then me because they are doing random normal dungeons. Even with the normal and vet randoms, why are they the same daily rewards? I’m not even getting extra transmutes for completing a random vet dungeon instead of a random normal dungeon. Makes no sense to me personally

Of course it's unfair to get the same reward for a random veteran dungeon as for a random normal dungeon. I agree with that.
But that's not what this discussion is about. The OP wants to receive this reward for the first dungeon each day—whether using the Dungeon Finder, playing solo, or any other way. And I think it would be inappropriate to give a reward just for doing say FG1 normal every day.

Oh, ya, there is a reason to not have the reward for the first pledge of the day or any dungeon. People would just run a FG1 every day real quick and get rewards in 3 minutes.

LootAllTheStuff · July 8

Arunei wrote: »

Dharmon wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Solo Dungeons serve a different purpose to Group Dungeons so there wouldn't be anything to cause people to stop doing the latter in favor of the former. Especially since, again, both offer different rewards.

Did I miss something here? are you referring to the 2 solo arenas where you can test yourself and get some decent stuff from the last boss?

If so they really only give the loot and sense of accomplishment, no big exp or transmuts so not relevant to this discussion imo-

Since what I meant was explained already, I'll add that unless I'm forgetting something from the stream we don't know for sure if the Solo Dungeons will have extra experience or Transmutes tied to them or not. But because the whole point of them being rewards for doing Random Dailies is to help fill the groups of specific Dungeons, I don't see why they'd need to encourage people to do Solo Dungeons since there's no one to help.

I got the impression that the main reason for solo dungeons was so that player could run them in their own time and at their own pace without the risk of being dragged straight to the boss encounter by Speedy McRando. It's perfect for those who are more story focussed and love to explore, for sure.