If you nerf.

duagloth · June 23

Heronisan wrote: »

Tatdad wrote: »

Most of the casuals are the actual money. Not the top 1% playerbase.

When your active players drops from 15,000 down to 5,000 or whatever that’s a lot of money.

Thats wrong thou, in all of online gaming, the whales generetate most of the income

"Whales spend significantly more money on games than casual players. While casuals make up the bulk of a game's download and active user base, a tiny fraction of players (often around 1–2%) known as whales generate 50–90% of all free-to-play (F2P) mobile and live-service revenue" there are studies on this.

Im also sick of seeing this 1% are toxic eltitist while 99% are casuals. There are far more variations then this, mostly toxic casuals who dabble in overworld think its split up into 99% and 1%

They set the table,guess whose coming too dinner?

xR3ACTORx · June 23

They always complain about the 1% but they never see how ordinary they are.

cyclonus11 · June 23

♫♪♪ If you nerf
Don't nerf now
Please don't take my roar away ♫♪♪

BXR_Lonestar · June 23

Tatdad wrote: »

Just got back into the game. Thank you so much for the werewolf update and for making them strong.

However. I already know how this song and dance goes. It happens with everything fun.

The 1% elites here cry. And YOU devs listen to them. Then I cancel my subscription again.

How about trying something different this time? Buff other weak things. Try it. Players might be happy.

I’ll keep this short and I could care less what the 1% of forum lurkers here say you do not represent me and the 1,000’s of players who spend money. Us casuals.

I buy skins. Crowns. Packs. Homes. All of it.

But if you nerf werewolf? I’ll quit again. The money stops. Pretty simple.

They are going to buff the other classes to be in line with the new DK and WW, but the problem is that rollout is going to take place over the next 2 years....

Bad design choice if you ask me.

Destai · June 23

I can appreciate where OP is coming from.

We're on the precipice of the Warden rework, and I'm a little nervous. For me, Warden and Templar are sacrosanct. If they ruin those classes during the reworks, the game would be dead for me. The DK rework gives me some degree of confidence, but that confidence is shaken by their overall combat balance history.

Now with the Warden, they do stand to improve a lot. I've played them as my main for years now, and I've reached a point where I don't really enjoy them as DPS anymore. They're a little clunkier compared to the Templar or Arcanist. So, I'm really keeping an open mind. The "Seasons" theme sounds appealing, I can imagine several ways that would be implemented. I personally want them to feel more druidic, so I'm cautiously hopeful. I just hope they stay strong as healers, as that's mainly why I fell in love with them.

On the broader issue of nerfs, it does impact things and I don't feel like the combat team really gets the gravity of it.

It seems like they fix issues that are issues only to them, rather than improving the broader player experience or embracing the playstyles people are asking for. They need to better appreciate many people don't care about some abstract balance, they care more about fun. Especially on the PVE side.

And not everyone has patience for nerf after nerf; feeling like we're losing our efforts because that team finds one of their calculations is "wrong" three years later. Like, I'm not chasing something like new mythics or trial gear anymore. I'll spend months getting sets only to have my efforts disrespected when it inevitably gets nerfed. That's not fun.

If the combat balance team cannot appreciate that at this point, then it's on them when people walk out the door. They've been given a lot of feedback and suggestions, most of which don't get implemented as far as i can see. They can't be surprised when people get mad and leave.

For instance, I was actually pretty mad with the combat team over the Empower and Tideborn/Velothi Ur changes. I had to change a lot of gear sets because of that, and it sank my interest in a lot of characters. I didn't feel like the combat team was approaching that issue from the player perspective, it felt more like an issue only in some spreadsheet rather than coming from player feedback.

As a result, I messaged @ZOS_JessicaFolsom with some questions for the combat team and suggested the combat team provide their parses and builds each change. No response from the combat team. Moments like that are exactly why there's some really negative attitudes towards that team and its leadership.

MissNoir · June 23

Arunei wrote: »

or doing high heals?

Made me imagine a werewolf in high heels.

coop500 · June 23

I would stop spending money now then if you think the devs aren't nerfing WW at all.
I already accepted that they will, I just hope they don't gut it for PvE, but they probably will.

Erickson9610 · June 23

coop500 wrote: »

I would stop spending money now then if you think the devs aren't nerfing WW at all.
I already accepted that they will, I just hope they don't gut it for PvE, but they probably will.

I hope they don't gut it for PvP. I know they balanced PvE and PvP Werewolf separately this patch, but I hope they don't use this as an excuse to ruin Werewolf in the gamemode that I care most about.

Like, imagine if they put a ramping cost or cooldown on Prowl. While this would make the Detect part of the skill less potent in PvP, it would also make the Reduced Monster Aggression Radius part of the skill less potent in PvE. If they introduced a "while Battle Spirit is active" stipulation, then PvE balancing would no longer hold PvP balancing back, and vice versa, but this means that it could be completely gutted in one mode without the consideration of the change's impact in other modes preventing that from happening.

We should care about how the playstyle performs in all parts of the game, not just PvE and not just PvP.

LalMirchi · June 23

OP: "But if you nerf werewolf? I’ll quit again. The money stops. Pretty simple."

What is a quitting thread if not this?

Avran_Sylt · June 23

I'm sorry but WW needs a nerf.

Tankier than templar healbots while maintaining a full rotation full of CC for resource attrition, bleeds, AoE damage, and GCD/Potion free infinite range stealth detection, and % max hp health restore favoring tanky attrition builds even more.

Their damage can stay, their defensive kit cannot.

coop500 · June 23

Erickson9610 wrote: »

coop500 wrote: »

I would stop spending money now then if you think the devs aren't nerfing WW at all.
I already accepted that they will, I just hope they don't gut it for PvE, but they probably will.

I hope they don't gut it for PvP. I know they balanced PvE and PvP Werewolf separately this patch, but I hope they don't use this as an excuse to ruin Werewolf in the gamemode that I care most about.

Like, imagine if they put a ramping cost or cooldown on Prowl. While this would make the Detect part of the skill less potent in PvP, it would also make the Reduced Monster Aggression Radius part of the skill less potent in PvE. If they introduced a "while Battle Spirit is active" stipulation, then PvE balancing would no longer hold PvP balancing back, and vice versa, but this means that it could be completely gutted in one mode without the consideration of the change's impact in other modes preventing that from happening.

We should care about how the playstyle performs in all parts of the game, not just PvE and not just PvP.

The problem is that Werewolf in high end PvE is BARELY viable (once damage is nerfed, the only thing it will have going for it is Major Courage and people want that removed too) and suffers from innate things that will never be fixed (weak cleave range, melee only, channeled skill sucks) whereas in PvP, I think as long as they don't completely gut it into the ground, it will always be a solid choice due to how it functions. No I don't want it gutted for PvP but I think the genuine chance of that happening is pretty low.

LukosCreyden · June 23

Nerf everything until it is all an unplayable, miserable mess again! Yes!

s3dulo · June 23

WWs could be fixed by simply making class mastery passives inactive in WW form. That would tune down their damage a bit and take away the easy infinite sustain so players would have to build more into resources and less into giant health pools. An easy fix without touching anything on the WW skill tree.

coop500 · June 23

Plus everyone keeps asking for health-scaling removed from Werewolf heals (even people who defend WW). Great, this guts it for PvE tanking and harder solo content. But nobody's talking about that, they're just talking about PvP, and I don't trust the devs to introduce completely different scaling mechanics for PvP vs PvE (plus insert complaints that people already have of skills working too differently in PvP)

So, yeah I'm worried for PvE.

MasterSpatula · June 23

cyclonus11 wrote: »

♫♪♪ If you nerf
Don't nerf now
Please don't take my roar away ♫♪♪

♬𝅝 I whip you once
I whip you twice
I won't be nerfed at any price ♬𝅗𝅥

CatalinaWineMixer2 · June 23

Tatdad wrote: »

Just got back into the game. Thank you so much for the werewolf update and for making them strong.

However. I already know how this song and dance goes. It happens with everything fun.

The 1% elites here cry. And YOU devs listen to them. Then I cancel my subscription again.

How about trying something different this time? Buff other weak things. Try it. Players might be happy.

I’ll keep this short and I could care less what the 1% of forum lurkers here say you do not represent me and the 1,000’s of players who spend money. Us casuals.

I buy skins. Crowns. Packs. Homes. All of it.

But if you nerf werewolf? I’ll quit again. The money stops. Pretty simple.

Yes. The Werewolf is fine as it is. Stop nerfing our characters. @Zos If PvP doesn't like it, its an absolute guarantee you guys did a good job on it, made a good character and did the right thing. PvP doesn't like anything. And they're never going to be happy. Ever. There are a lot of people who really like the Werewolf, AS IT IS. And the newer people playing PvP with it finally got a chance to stand up against the people responsible for over 10 years of constant nerfs to our characters. All over PvP and Leaderboards.

I play PvP and im on Leaderboards too. For the good of the game and the majority of Eso, LEAVE THE BEAUTIFUL WEREWOLF ALONE. It's beautifully done and its just fine.

Lekjih · June 23

nightbringer1993 wrote: »

The DK refresh is one of the reasons that made me leave the game.

They nerfed necromancers like hell for the past five years and ZOS told us to wait for winter 2027 to have out class ready, in the mean time, classes that are not being refreshes will suffers nerfs while refreshed classes will be playable and overpowered.

The next refresh is warden, the class I hate the most, especially since the infamous charm that was added when scribbing came out, and I don't want to be in the game to witness wardens, DK and werewolf nuking people while mine becomes more and more unplayable.

So as a necro main who got nerfed like hell, the game is unplayable, and ZOS needs to understand that nerfing players again and again will make people quit the game. That DK refresh made people quit pvp, and I saw it the two-three weeks I remained in the game after the patch.

I'm seeing more people want cros in corpsebuster in pve content, I don't know if that interests you.

Arunei · June 23

MissNoir wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

or doing high heals?

Made me imagine a werewolf in high heels.

This is both a hilarious yet horrifying mental image. It would definitely slow them down if they didn't want to twist/break an ankle or two lol.

coop500 wrote: »

Plus everyone keeps asking for health-scaling removed from Werewolf heals (even people who defend WW). Great, this guts it for PvE tanking and harder solo content. But nobody's talking about that, they're just talking about PvP, and I don't trust the devs to introduce completely different scaling mechanics for PvP vs PvE (plus insert complaints that people already have of skills working too differently in PvP)

So, yeah I'm worried for PvE.

I mentioned this before, don't remember if it was in this thread or one of the others. While the devs are getting better about splitting PvP and PvE stuff as of late, that doesn't mean they'll KEEP doing it for everything. It's entirely possible that X nerf for PvP carries over to PvE, and changing/reducing health-based healing in PvE making tanking harder/worse in PvE was something I brought up. I don't tank, but a lot of people already crap on WW tanking. It doesn't need one of the things it has going for it yeeted into the void.

If the health-based healing is a big part of the problem I'd say they need to add a condition to it while Battle Spirit is in effect. "This Skill will have half efficiency while Battle Spirit is in effect" or something like that. They couldn't really use the "against players" tag thing they've been using more since the healing affects the player and not their enemy (except for Bloodclaws and the damage on that already has the "lowered against players" tag, which I would imagine also affects the heals since it's based on damage done AND max Health?).

AetherialXL · June 24

Luneca wrote: »

Imagine equating "fun" being an "I win" button.

winning is fun though lol.

Arunei · June 24

AetherialXL wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Imagine equating "fun" being an "I win" button.

winning is fun though lol.

I'm still waiting on clarification on how the whole "I win" button applies to PvE, since apparently they weren't just talking about PvP when I mentioned not everything being PvP. Because like I said, the whole goal of DPS in PvE is to get your numbers as high as possible so you (and your group for Dungeons and Trials) CAN win. Winning IS indeed fun when that's the whole point of getting strong enough to clear stuff in PvE.

I genuinely don't get how anything that gets someone closer to the goal of clearing X or Y is somehow bad in PvE. I don't get how it's considered "I win" to have something strong in PvE.

IZZEFlameLash · June 24

LukosCreyden wrote: »

Nerf everything until it is all an unplayable, miserable mess again! Yes!

Yes! From the complaints currently, we should all play this game in Vengeance pvp campaign style, pre-built stuffs only, even in PvE because x class is OP needs nerf, y world skill line is OP and needs nerf. We should be fighting a mudcrab like it's a Souls game boss!

Militan1404 · June 24

Arunei wrote: »

AetherialXL wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Imagine equating "fun" being an "I win" button.

winning is fun though lol.

I'm still waiting on clarification on how the whole "I win" button applies to PvE, since apparently they weren't just talking about PvP when I mentioned not everything being PvP. Because like I said, the whole goal of DPS in PvE is to get your numbers as high as possible so you (and your group for Dungeons and Trials) CAN win. Winning IS indeed fun when that's the whole point of getting strong enough to clear stuff in PvE.

I genuinely don't get how anything that gets someone closer to the goal of clearing X or Y is somehow bad in PvE. I don't get how it's considered "I win" to have something strong in PvE.

Becouse there supposed to be a challenge and your supposed to need tanks and healers if not they would have no reason to exist. If a WW can take down trial bosses alone why even bring DDs thats not WW, and why bring tanks or healers. When one WW can take down a trial boss imagine what a group of WW can do. So balance is just as important in pve as in pvp, becouse if something is to OP in pve everything else gets usless.

IZZEFlameLash · June 24

Militan1404 wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

AetherialXL wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

Imagine equating "fun" being an "I win" button.

winning is fun though lol.

I'm still waiting on clarification on how the whole "I win" button applies to PvE, since apparently they weren't just talking about PvP when I mentioned not everything being PvP. Because like I said, the whole goal of DPS in PvE is to get your numbers as high as possible so you (and your group for Dungeons and Trials) CAN win. Winning IS indeed fun when that's the whole point of getting strong enough to clear stuff in PvE.

I genuinely don't get how anything that gets someone closer to the goal of clearing X or Y is somehow bad in PvE. I don't get how it's considered "I win" to have something strong in PvE.

Becouse there supposed to be a challenge and your supposed to need tanks and healers if not they would have no reason to exist. If a WW can take down trial bosses alone why even bring DDs thats not WW, and why bring tanks or healers. When one WW can take down a trial boss imagine what a group of WW can do. So balance is just as important in pve as in pvp, becouse if something is to OP in pve everything else gets usless.

Those players are already very familiar with the trial mechanics because they've been literally in the best trial teams for years. They also have been the ones to post them soloing a vDLC dungeon or trial with different classes too.

A vast majority of ESO players with Werewolf won't be soloing a trial or vDLC dungeons. In reality, you'd be lucky to see Werewolf member pulling 30k dps in real group settings while people with trial gears, no WW form pull like 60k+ dps each without proper support.

VenomSheru · June 24

s3dulo wrote: »

WWs could be fixed by simply making class mastery passives inactive in WW form. That would tune down their damage a bit and take away the easy infinite sustain so players would have to build more into resources and less into giant health pools. An easy fix without touching anything on the WW skill tree.

No one is listening ... this is what needs to be done ... WW shouldn't have access to class masteries and class sets

VenomSheru · June 24

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

I'm sorry but WW needs a nerf.

Tankier than templar healbots while maintaining a full rotation full of CC for resource attrition, bleeds, AoE damage, and GCD/Potion free infinite range stealth detection, and % max hp health restore favoring tanky attrition builds even more.

Their damage can stay, their defensive kit cannot.

Major protection
Minor Courage
Major courage
Major cowardice
Major maim
Major evasion
Minor Protection
Major Defile

Its as if they put every buff and debuff on WW and then called it rework...

Prionyx · June 24

Tatdad wrote: »

Just got back into the game. Thank you so much for the werewolf update and for making them strong.

However. I already know how this song and dance goes. It happens with everything fun.

The 1% elites here cry. And YOU devs listen to them. Then I cancel my subscription again.

How about trying something different this time? Buff other weak things. Try it. Players might be happy.

I’ll keep this short and I could care less what the 1% of forum lurkers here say you do not represent me and the 1,000’s of players who spend money. Us casuals.

I buy skins. Crowns. Packs. Homes. All of it.

But if you nerf werewolf? I’ll quit again. The money stops. Pretty simple.

That's not fun, 1 build makes everything else absolutely unviable. This build also takes no skill to play at all(literally). This build is also a 1 bar thing where you just press 2 buttons. It's bad for the game

moo_2021 · June 25

tried it, leveled to max, signet build, not impressed.

for a solo tank, 42k hp and 30k resist, it barely hits harder than bash builds, with much weaker survivability - no way to diversify resource, no shield, no HoT, animations are confusing and seriously delayed, only variance is by sets, and if there is a single enemy i'd risk running out of ultimate.

remind me not to trust those popular complaints again.

VenomSheru · 10:32AM

moo_2021 wrote: »

tried it, leveled to max, signet build, not impressed.

for a solo tank, 42k hp and 30k resist, it barely hits harder than bash builds, with much weaker survivability - no way to diversify resource, no shield, no HoT, animations are confusing and seriously delayed, only variance is by sets, and if there is a single enemy i'd risk running out of ultimate.

remind me not to trust those popular complaints again.

You aren't playing it RIGHT .. lol

Renato90085 · 11:04AM

but you are only fear ww is nerf from T0 to T1, or fear other class rework and all build better than ww again too?

moo_2021 · 6:30PM

VenomSheru wrote: »

moo_2021 wrote: »

tried it, leveled to max, signet build, not impressed.

for a solo tank, 42k hp and 30k resist, it barely hits harder than bash builds, with much weaker survivability - no way to diversify resource, no shield, no HoT, animations are confusing and seriously delayed, only variance is by sets, and if there is a single enemy i'd risk running out of ultimate.

remind me not to trust those popular complaints again.

You aren't playing it RIGHT .. lol

I suppose my rotation is messed up, but how would it be possible to double dps without losing health, healing or resistance? In fact the defense is far from ideal and I'd push resist to 40k in pvp.