Campaign Population Discussion: Blackreach vs. Vengeance

Unfadingsilence · June 22

I have a genuine question regarding the PvP campaigns.

Why did ZOS decide to bring back Blackreach when Vengeance appears to be significantly more active and populated?

For a long time, the common argument was that players only used the off-campaign as a waiting room while they queued for Grey Host, and that many avoided Vengeance because they wanted to play their actual builds. If that's the case, why wouldn't those players simply spend their time in Imperial City while waiting for their Grey Host queue to pop?

Since Blackreach was added again, I've found it to be largely empty. Meanwhile, while waiting to get into Grey Host, I regularly visit Vengeance and consistently see more players, more activity, and more action during prime time than I do in Blackreach.

With that in mind, what was the reasoning behind bringing Blackreach back instead of keeping Vengeance as the primary secondary campaign?

LadyLavina · June 22

Because player outrage was massive enough and Vengeance's numbers low enough that it became obvious even to them that it was a mistake to push Vengeance that hard via Blackreach removal.

Vengeance tests only succeeded because they were made to be the only option.

Unfadingsilence · June 22

LadyLavina wrote: »

Because player outrage was massive enough and Vengeance's numbers low enough that it became obvious even to them that it was a mistake to push Vengeance that hard via Blackreach removal.

Vengeance tests only succeeded because they were made to be the only option.

That makes sense. But now at the same time, that black reach is completely dead. Why keep it around since the population of vengeance is a lot higher, why keep it?

Erickson9610 · June 22

I am okay with having Gray Host, Blackreach, and Vengeance as they currently are* being the only campaigns.

*These are the roles that each campaign fills:

Gray Host is the main, standard Cyrodiil experience that is competitive due to having Faction Lock. This is where people go if they want the fullest ESO Cyrodiil experience. This is where the scores really matter.
Blackreach is the secondary, standard Cyrodiil experience that is great for casual play due to not having Faction Lock. This is where people go if they want to play with friends on other factions, or if they want to have an experience like Gray Host while waiting in queue for Gray Host. Don't get too invested in the scores here, just have fun.
Vengeance is the new, optimized Cyrodiil experience. It's great for new (Under 50) characters or characters without Item Set builds. It has an increased population cap so the battles are larger. The scores don't really matter here either.

I don't want Gray Host, Blackreach, or Vengeance to be changed or removed. Each campaign serves a purpose.

ShutUpitsRed · June 22

Want to play my build and earn AP at the same time.

jle30303 · June 23

On EU I have mostly seen Blackreach be more populated then GH. I tend to play Blackreach because, as a highly casual PVPer but more serious PVEer with characters on multiple alliances, I might tend to go in with whichever character I'm playing at the moment and try to grab a few points, or perhaps a contribution towards the faction-specific achievements for whatever faction that character is. Two thirds of my chars would be locked out of PVP if GH was the only thing.

LPapirius · June 23

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

LadyLavina wrote: »

Because player outrage was massive enough and Vengeance's numbers low enough that it became obvious even to them that it was a mistake to push Vengeance that hard via Blackreach removal.

Vengeance tests only succeeded because they were made to be the only option.

That makes sense. But now at the same time, that black reach is completely dead. Why keep it around since the population of vengeance is a lot higher, why keep it?

Blackreach isn't dead. But you're probably right that we should get rid of vengeance so Blackreach will be more populated.

Moothos · June 23

This is why lol.

It doesn't need to have Gray Host numbers all the time. It just needs to be available for when Gray Host queue is terrible.

Orbital78 · June 23

Both nonfaction lock campaigns are just PVD. I just swap to the winning zergs and it is easy AP.

Gabriel_H · June 23

Moothos wrote: »

This is why lol.

It doesn't need to have Gray Host numbers all the time. It just needs to be available for when Gray Host queue is terrible.

And yet after 2 days of Blackreach being open, the large queue for GH disappeared and Blackreach was down to 1 bar. GH would have at least 2, if not 3 bars, even at 4am and now that is suddenly not the case. I was in GH before Blackreach came back, there were a lot of people standing around not doing much.

That isn't to say an overflow isn't needed, but the numbers in GH after U50 far exceeded what they have been historically (across all campaigns) for the last few years. I can speculate as to why that was the case, but it seems a moot point given those numbers have by and large now returned to their typical levels.

Gabriel_H · June 23

Erickson9610 wrote: »

*These are the roles that each campaign fills:
Gray Host is the main, standard Cyrodiil experience that is competitive due to having Faction Lock. This is where people go if they want the fullest ESO Cyrodiil experience. This is where the scores really matter.

Blackreach is the secondary, standard Cyrodiil experience that is great for casual play due to not having Faction Lock. This is where people go if they want to play with friends on other factions, or if they want to have an experience like Gray Host while waiting in queue for Gray Host. Don't get too invested in the scores here, just have fun.

Vengeance is the new, optimized Cyrodiil experience. It's great for new (Under 50) characters or characters without Item Set builds. It has an increased population cap so the battles are larger. The scores don't really matter here either.

My experience is the score seems to matter the least, and it's more about the AP farm.
Where people go while waiting for GH, or to swap between characters to farm AP.
Still a test environment (They haven't anywhere near finalised Vengeance yet), and where people go who want less class imbalance and much better performance - this last one is in fact the stated goal. There is still AP farming, but would be interesting to see at 300 per alliance instead of the roughly 100 per alliance playing currently.

Moothos · June 23

Here is the GH queue and BR population earlier this evening.

Lower than when I took screenshots on the weekend, but that's to be expected since it's Monday. Nonetheless, thank you ZOS for bringing back BR, it is serving its purpose.

amiiegee · June 23

Vengeance is dead and people don’t like it

IZZEFlameLash · June 23

The last weekend, on PCNA, I noticed Blackreach having 3 bars while Vengeance peaked at 2 bars of EP or DC with all the other factions staying at 1 bar each peak time. So... I am unsure what you mean by Vengeance outnumbering Blackreach. Blackreach only becomes empty when Gray Host has plenty of spare spots, a.k.a non-prime time.

Gabriel_H · June 23

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

The last weekend, on PCNA, I noticed Blackreach having 3 bars while Vengeance peaked at 2 bars of EP or DC with all the other factions staying at 1 bar each peak time. So... I am unsure what you mean by Vengeance outnumbering Blackreach. Blackreach only becomes empty when Gray Host has plenty of spare spots, a.k.a non-prime time.

Pop-locked on GH/BR = 120 players per faction
Two bars on Vengeance = 100 - 200 players per faction

Clarity: Max population on GH/BR is 360, on Vengeance it is 900.

Stamicka · June 23

It really doesn’t matter. Adding Blackreach didn’t hurt anybody.

Lots of people were complaining that the removal of Blackreach made Grey Host queues too long. I think ZOS made the right move to address those complaints by adding it back.

At the very least it silenced the backlash.

Maitsukas · June 23

amiiegee wrote: »

Vengeance is dead and people don’t like it

Scores on PC-EU tell a different story than you do in all of the Vengeance-related threads you've commented on:

Gray Host:

Blackreach (I reloaded the UI, relogged, swapped characters but all numbers were at 0 for me):

Vengeance:

Gabriel_H · June 23

Maitsukas wrote: »

amiiegee wrote: »

Vengeance is dead and people don’t like it

Scores on PC-EU tell a different story than you do in all of the Vengeance-related threads you've commented on:

Gray Host:

Blackreach (I reloaded the UI, relogged, swapped characters but all numbers were at 0 for me):

Vengeance:

The more interesting scores are the individual players AP in the top 25 of each campaign. They are by and large the same, suggesting that Vengeance has its own element of hardcore PvPers.

tomofhyrule · June 23

I can't help but notice only two people in this thread posted their server:

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

The last weekend, on PCNA, I noticed Blackreach having 3 bars while Vengeance peaked at 2 bars of EP or DC with all the other factions staying at 1 bar each peak time. So... I am unsure what you mean by Vengeance outnumbering Blackreach. Blackreach only becomes empty when Gray Host has plenty of spare spots, a.k.a non-prime time.

Maitsukas wrote: »

Scores on PC-EU tell a different story than you do in all of the Vengeance-related threads you've commented on:
[snip images]

This is suggesting that Blackreach is dead on PCEU, but active on PCNA. Extrapolating makes me wonder if PCEU players are more likely to jump into Vengeance, while PCNA will avoid it like the plague and prefer playing standard rules. Looking back, this also makes sense otherwise - we have all seen how a lot of people who champion Vengeance like their life depends on it are EU mains, and people who say that Vengeance is dead and would rather sit in 3-hour GH queues than enter are NA mains.

We have seen before that different servers have different habits, so it wouldn't be far fetched to suggest that the same applies here. That does also mean that everyone who is hardcore on the "THIS CAMPAIGN IS DEAD" is both correct and wrong - it may be dead on your server, but it's active on the other. As such, closing it down because your server doesn't use it is not appropriate since it is totally in use in others.

Maybe everyone in this thread should pop their server in in addition to these discussions. It'd be interesting to see if VG vs BR was actually a server-based thing.

ceruulean · June 23

We don't know for sure. ZoS probably opened Blackreach as an experiment and also as a way to let people do their Intro to Cyro quest. As for population and activity levels, I don't think opening BR is going to affect anything. The horrid balance and powercreep of live BG/Cyrodiil will kill its PvP scene more. I went into a battlegrounds with a Curse Eater healer since I wanted to counter the current meta and got 1-2 shot in Elder Call of Duty Scrolls by ranged sorcs, so I have to run around trees with triple swift jewelry and RAT spam. Templar is one of the worst classes in Vengeance, but at least you can outplay people with skill. Nothing would make me want to touch live PvP again, whether it's BG or Cyro. The player preferences are completely different.

Maitsukas · June 23

tomofhyrule wrote: »

I can't help but notice only two people in this thread posted their server:

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

The last weekend, on PCNA, I noticed Blackreach having 3 bars while Vengeance peaked at 2 bars of EP or DC with all the other factions staying at 1 bar each peak time. So... I am unsure what you mean by Vengeance outnumbering Blackreach. Blackreach only becomes empty when Gray Host has plenty of spare spots, a.k.a non-prime time.

Maitsukas wrote: »

Scores on PC-EU tell a different story than you do in all of the Vengeance-related threads you've commented on:
[snip images]

This is suggesting that Blackreach is dead on PCEU, but active on PCNA. Extrapolating makes me wonder if PCEU players are more likely to jump into Vengeance, while PCNA will avoid it like the plague and prefer playing standard rules. Looking back, this also makes sense otherwise - we have all seen how a lot of people who champion Vengeance like their life depends on it are EU mains, and people who say that Vengeance is dead and would rather sit in 3-hour GH queues than enter are NA mains.

We have seen before that different servers have different habits, so it wouldn't be far fetched to suggest that the same applies here. That does also mean that everyone who is hardcore on the "THIS CAMPAIGN IS DEAD" is both correct and wrong - it may be dead on your server, but it's active on the other. As such, closing it down because your server doesn't use it is not appropriate since it is totally in use in others.

Maybe everyone in this thread should pop their server in in addition to these discussions. It'd be interesting to see if VG vs BR was actually a server-based thing.

If we were to look at the amount of players split across the Alliance War leaderboards on PC-EU, then it looks like this (at the time of my posting):

Gray Host:

AD - 500+
DC - 500+
EP - 500+

Blackreach:

AD - 138
DC - 148
EP - 194

Vengeance:

AD - 377
DC - 408
EP - 470