Overland Content Feedback Thread

Arunei · June 20

There is an inherent difference between asking for help because you cannot do something by yourself, and asking for help but then sitting there doing nothing and expecting anyone who shows up to do the work for you. If a person is on Vestige and needs help because a Boss is too hard, it's entirely fine for them to ask for help. They might be trying to work towards that Title that requires you to Do The Things™ on Vestige. What isn't fine is to want help and then not lift a finger to contribute to the fight in the slightest. That is essentially using people. It might not be a particularly serious example of it, but it is using people all the same.

That said, it is what it is. In the future if someone opts to help another person and that person doesn't do squat to help themselves, just leave and let them catch the aggro. But just like the people on higher difficulty are going to have to accept that things like WBs aren't their personal fights and those sorts of things are inherently meant to be done by numerous people, we have to accept there will be lazy folks opting to get the benefits of higher settings without doing any actual work. Aka getting involved in combat.

spartaxoxo · June 20

Arunei wrote: »

There is an inherent difference between asking for help because you cannot do something by yourself, and asking for help but then sitting there doing nothing and expecting anyone who shows up to do the work for you.

They were not afk as far as I know. If they were afk and I missed it then I agree that's different. Just playing on Vestige is not morally different than wearing non-meta gear. Both of those choices are just people wanting to have fun in a video game. People are intentionally weaker in both cases but they're not trying to ruin anyone's day. They just find it fun.

If you're running around joining random groups, all you can expect is randomness. From the dungeon finder to the random zone chat. We'll meet people of all different difficulty settings, play styles, builds, competency, internet stability, etc etc. It's both the downside and beautiful thing about playing with randoms. You never know what type of player you're grouping with when you join a random party.

I don't help AFKers or people saying mean things in zone chat but I do help everyone else. But ofc no stranger is obligated to help someone else. If you don't want to help players on Vestige, avoid the ones with the ornate ouroboros next to their name. At least we can see that before the fight starts. 🤷🏾

BretonMage · June 20

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't help AFKers or people saying mean things in zone chat but I do help everyone else. But ofc no stranger is obligated to help someone else. If you don't want to help players on Vestige, avoid the ones with the ornate ouroboros next to their name. At least we can see that before the fight starts. 🤷🏾

Well, hopefully there isn't a dead wolf or skeever somewhere in vicinity obscuring the player's nameplate...

SilverBride · June 20

This isn't a moral issue. No one is questioning what kind of person this player is. Even the most moral people can make mistakes or use poor judgement at times.

In this case the player should have disclosed their Vestige status when asking for help. And when they knew I was questioning my character's ability to defeat this boss they could have troubleshooted and dropped back to Master rather than leave the whole burden on me.

Did they intentionally mean to be rude? Probably not. But at the time it felt deceitful and it will change how I offer help in the future, because now I will ask their difficulty level first.

Arunei · June 20

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

There is an inherent difference between asking for help because you cannot do something by yourself, and asking for help but then sitting there doing nothing and expecting anyone who shows up to do the work for you.

They were not afk as far as I know. If they were afk and I missed it then I agree that's different. Just playing on Vestige is not morally different than wearing non-meta gear. Both of those choices are just people wanting to have fun in a video game. People are intentionally weaker in both cases but they're not trying to ruin anyone's day. They just find it fun.

No one is saying it's morally wrong for someone to play on Vestige. I even said in that post it's perfectly fine for someone on Vestige to ask for help. That isn't what's being questioned. And no, it doesn't sound like the.person was afk since there was discussion about Silver's character.

Let's disregard the setting this person was on and say it was Adventurer so we can focus on the fact that they asked for help. Even if.someone is on Adventurer, if they ask for help then they should take part in what they're asking for help with instead of letting someone else do all the work for them. It's like someone you work with coming to ask for help and when you go to help, they just stand there and watch you do it for them without contributing anything.

Asking for help. Perfectly fine.
Playing on higher settings. Perfectly fine.
Asking for help on higher settings. Perfectly fine.
Asking for help in general and then letting others do the thing for you without contributing at all? That's a problem.

disky · June 20

Can I just say...I wouldn't personally have cared. In the future, now you know to ask about this if it you don't like it, but all this means to me, as someone who wants a challenge, is that now there's a challenge. There might be something the devs can do to alleviate this issue for those who consider it to be one, such as placing an indicator on the player's name in chat, but I think that this is being made out to be a bigger issue than it is. As far as I'm concerned, either ask, or don't bother.

SilverBride · June 20

disky wrote: »

Can I just say...I wouldn't personally have cared. In the future, now you know to ask about this if it you don't like it, but all this means to me, as someone who wants a challenge, is that now there's a challenge. There might be something the devs can do to alleviate this issue for those who consider it to be one, such as placing an indicator on the player's name in chat, but I think that this is being made out to be a bigger issue than it is. As far as I'm concerned, either ask, or don't bother.

The player using difficulty, Vestige in particular, are placing a bigger burden on those helping them that are not using difficulty or a lower level. They need to let those coming to help know so they can say "We should be fine." or "Maybe we need one or two more.".

It's not just a matter of etiquette but also making sure the group is adequately prepared.

disky · June 20

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

Can I just say...I wouldn't personally have cared. In the future, now you know to ask about this if it you don't like it, but all this means to me, as someone who wants a challenge, is that now there's a challenge. There might be something the devs can do to alleviate this issue for those who consider it to be one, such as placing an indicator on the player's name in chat, but I think that this is being made out to be a bigger issue than it is. As far as I'm concerned, either ask, or don't bother.

The player using difficulty, Vestige in particular, are placing a bigger burden on those helping them that are not using difficulty or a lower level. They need to let those coming to help know so they can say "We should be fine." or "Maybe we need one or two more.".

It's not just a matter of etiquette but also making sure the group is adequately prepared.

When someone has asked for help with a world boss in the past, I have never once asked them anything about their build or playstyle, and I have never once expected anything from them in the fight. I go in with the notion that I will be contributing more than anyone else, but I hope they will do enough to contribute as well. It has always been likely that those who need to ask for help really do need it, and so I don't feel like this is something that should change that. I see your point, and I think it's something that could be addressed, but I also see social/classism issues with a lot of the potential solutions. I think it's probably just best to take it in stride or do what you need to do to deal with it, because I don't really think it's that big of a deal to most people, who as I have said, seem to be enjoying the feature.

SilverBride · June 20

disky wrote: »

When someone has asked for help with a world boss in the past, I have never once asked them anything about their build or playstyle, and I have never once expected anything from them in the fight.

There were no extremely weak players doing DLC World Bosses back then. And like I said It's not just a matter of etiquette but also making sure the group is adequately prepared..

disky · June 20

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

When someone has asked for help with a world boss in the past, I have never once asked them anything about their build or playstyle, and I have never once expected anything from them in the fight.

There were no extremely weak players doing DLC World Bosses back then. And like I said It's not just a matter of etiquette but also making sure the group is adequately prepared..

World bosses are not trial bosses, and the etiquette you often see with regard to trials has never, in my experience, extended to overland. There are and have always been extremely weak and/or unskilled players in ESO who have needed and asked for help in chat, and I so I don't see why there should be a difference here. You are welcome to inquire about their status if you are so inclined, but I just never have seen a reason to, because if someone asks for help and I choose to help them, the help is the point. Not the victory.

SilverBride · June 20

I stand by my view.

ESO_player123 · June 20

disky wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

When someone has asked for help with a world boss in the past, I have never once asked them anything about their build or playstyle, and I have never once expected anything from them in the fight.

There were no extremely weak players doing DLC World Bosses back then. And like I said It's not just a matter of etiquette but also making sure the group is adequately prepared..

World bosses are not trial bosses, and the etiquette you often see with regard to trials has never, in my experience, extended to overland. There are and have always been extremely weak and/or unskilled players in ESO who have needed and asked for help in chat, and I so I don't see why there should be a difference here. You are welcome to inquire about their status if you are so inclined, but I just never have seen a reason to, because if someone asks for help and I choose to help them, the help is the point. Not the victory.

Asking for help is not the issue. The differences between the unskilled/weak player and a Vestige are the intention and the amount of effort needed to make themselves stronger. The unskilled/weak in most cases are not intended to be so, and it requires time, effort, and research to become better and make a DLC boss more manageable. A Vestige chose the challenge, and all they needed to do is drop the setting a notch to Master so a DLC boss becomes more manageable since there were only 2 people there.

Again, it would not be an issue with base zone bosses.

For comparison, I was farming the Summerset for new furnishing plans. Someone offered Graveld share and, once we were in a group, asked "sorry if I'm weak, I'm on Vestige". I had no issues with that since they warned, and there were a bunch of us anyway, so it did not matter that they died easily. (Yes, I know, Summerset is not DLC, and the bosses there are easy except for the Gryphons that reset themselves all the time).

spartaxoxo · June 20

Arunei wrote: »

Asking for help. Perfectly fine.
Playing on higher settings. Perfectly fine.
Asking for help on higher settings. Perfectly fine.
Asking for help in general and then letting others do the thing for you without contributing at all? That's a problem.

Calling someone deceitful or a user is turning it into an issue with the person's character in the moment. I'm not saying you're calling them a bad person. Everyone can make mistakes, as you said. Doing something shady but largely unharmful in a video game is pretty minor on the grand scale. But it is saying someone is intentionally trying to take advantage of someone else. Comparing it to someone being afk is too. Maybe ethical rather than moral would be the better term idk. A fake DPS isn't necessarily a fraud. They just aren't going to be able to do their role adequately.

This is really not different than those meta players claiming people in roleplaying builds didn't contribute to the fight at all when that person actually was contributing. They did less damage not zero. They didn't stand back and let someone else do all the work. They tried their best at the power level that they are at.

Why do you think meta players in sweaty groups reject people for not playing the right class, gear, etc?

I'm not talking about people who physically can't get meta gear because that's obviously different. But, a LOT of people say things like "I don't need to be meta," or "I'm not sweaty," or "some of us don't want to get gud," or "I play this game to relax," which all translate to the same thing. The person is not interested in being a meta DPS. They are intentionally limiting their power level because that is how they enjoy the game.

Have y'all advocated for requiring DPS checks before being able to join dungeons, arenas, or trials so that people who don't want to carry someone with 30k dps can see it printed in chat and not group with them?

I personally wouldn't have a problem with that either but somehow based on when I have proposed that in the past, and the pushback I have gotten from people on it, people wouldn't be happy about it.

Whether it's a player on vet or a player is some intentionally on some build that they don't care isn't hitting hard...the result is the same. I'm going to be doing most of the damage if I roll up on my DPS. But I still don't go around calling them stuff like deceitful or users or get better gear. Because at the end of the day I see us both doing our best to kill the enemy in the setups that we find the most fun. And that's all I ask of anyone I help. But I'd still like the ability to know what I'm getting into and decide for myself if it's something I'm in the mood for because it really is harder.

You can choose to only help people who are at equal power levels as you do. After all, if you don't like being the carry, that's valid. There are certainly fights that I don't want to carry a fake either because it makes it too hard to be enjoyable. But, it crosses into elitism when we start calling them stuff like deceitful.

At the end of the day, if the person is doing the best they can at the power level they find most enjoyable, then that's all we can ask of anyone imo. It doesn't mean we have to group with them or there's something wrong with not wanting to help all the time. But, we can refrain from devaluing their contributions by saying stuff like they are users. Just my opinion.

spartaxoxo · June 20

SilverBride wrote: »

disky wrote: »

When someone has asked for help with a world boss in the past, I have never once asked them anything about their build or playstyle, and I have never once expected anything from them in the fight.

There were no extremely weak players doing DLC World Bosses back then. And like I said It's not just a matter of etiquette but also making sure the group is adequately prepared..

They couldn't let the companions do 20k or players would have been excluded from groups. Many players hit below 20k. A vet player hitting the minimum for many groups to be welcome in all vet clears is hitting like 16k. Which is still more than the 10k that some dps players are doing. There have been tanks making complaints about out damaging the DPS in the vet dungeon when their own tank is only hitting 10-15k. That's less damage than our vestige example. And half as much as our meta DPS vestige example doing 28k. How much damage these guys are taking will depend on skill level and how much unavoidable AOE the particular world boss has.

I have carried plenty of players with low power levels through all sorts of content.

SilverBride · June 20

I don't understand why it is seen an a problem for a player using Vestige to just say that when asking for help. Especially when it will help assure they get an adequate group.

How things were done before difficulty are now outdated by a new system, and being open and informative will only help it to go more smoothly.

spartaxoxo · June 20

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't understand why it is seen an a problem for a player using Vestige to just say that when asking for help. Especially when it will help assure they get an adequate group.

How things were done before difficulty are now outdated by a new system, and being open and informative will only help it to go more smoothly.

Because it singles them out and makes them have to beg for help rather than treating them the same as everyone else. And sets them for attacks on their character if they don't know about this and someone arrives at the wayshrine and sees a nameplate they weren't expecting.

Which is why it's better for it to be an issue solved by the devs in a way that doesn't single people out. Rather than as a social norm that sets people up to be excluded.

SilverBride · June 20

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't understand why it is seen an a problem for a player using Vestige to just say that when asking for help. Especially when it will help assure they get an adequate group.

How things were done before difficulty are now outdated by a new system, and being open and informative will only help it to go more smoothly.

Because it singles them out and makes them have to beg for help rather than treating them the same as everyone else. And sets them for attacks on their character if they don't know about this and someone arrives at the wayshrine and sees a nameplate they weren't expecting.

Which is why it's better for it to be an issue solved by the devs in a way that doesn't single people out. Rather than as a social norm that sets people up to be excluded.

I for one would appreciate it and be much more likely to help them for being open.

spartaxoxo · June 20

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't understand why it is seen an a problem for a player using Vestige to just say that when asking for help. Especially when it will help assure they get an adequate group.

How things were done before difficulty are now outdated by a new system, and being open and informative will only help it to go more smoothly.

Because it singles them out and makes them have to beg for help rather than treating them the same as everyone else. And sets them for attacks on their character if they don't know about this and someone arrives at the wayshrine and sees a nameplate they weren't expecting.

Which is why it's better for it to be an issue solved by the devs in a way that doesn't single people out. Rather than as a social norm that sets people up to be excluded.

I for one would appreciate it and be much more likely to help them for being open.

I'm sure there would always be nice people willing to help.

The issue comes when they then don't adhere to those social rules and get called a bunch of names. Or they get excluded from stuff that they can easily do because they're on the "wrong," setting. And all the other same issues many casual players get now with having their effort devalued, name called, and excluded because they aren't wearing the best gear.

I'd like private DPS tests for people so they can know where they stand in comparison to others free of judgement. I think that would help a lot of casual players avoid these experiences and let meta dps avoid players they'd be the carry on without these two groups having to interact and get abusive chat.

I am in favor of the difficulty level of all players being next to their name in chat. Etc. Dev solutions that don't single people out.

I dislike stuff like "they should have to link their gear to join groups," or "they should have to tell everyone their difficulty level." Because while I understand and think it's super valid to not want to have to carry. It just gets really abused.

Arunei · June 20

@spartaxoxo
I never claimed the person was deceitful, I think you're getting me and Silver mixed up. I never even said them not sharing/advertising their setting was a problem or that people should do so when asking for help.

But if someone asks for help because they can't do something on their own and then just stands there and lets other people do the work for them, then yes, by its very nature that is using someone. And like I said already it's not like it's super duper ultra serious or anything. No one is being hurt or anything by it. But it 100% is still using people to have them do something for you when it's implied you'll also be taking part. It's a problem no matter WHAT difficulty someone is playing on. It's just rude to ask for help and then expect people to do the thing for you so you can get the benefits without actually contributing anything.

And it's not quite the same as someone with lower DPS wanting to do a Trial or something. Even if someone genuinely doesn't have the DPS, if they at least try to get through the content and are actively contributing, that's fine. They're trying. It would be a completely different matter if someone could only do 30k but they just sat there wanting to be carried without actually putting any kind of effort in.

spartaxoxo · 2:25AM

Arunei wrote: »

And it's not quite the same as someone with lower DPS wanting to do a Trial or something. Even if someone genuinely doesn't have the DPS, if they at least try to get through the content and are actively contributing, that's fine. They're trying. It would be a completely different matter if someone could only do 30k but they just sat there wanting to be carried without actually putting any kind of effort in.

But they did try? That's the part that makes it similar. They didn't go afk. I agree it's not right to go afk. But I don't think saying a low power setup is the same as being afk is fair regardless of why that person lacks power.

ETA
Are we even talking about the same thing, I wonder?

The player on Vestige asked for help on the world boss. But they died easily and when they were alive and attacking their damage was bad. So it wasn't that they didn't try. It's that they were so bad that they needed to be carried. That's the situation as I understood it.

colossalvoids · 7:28AM

Without meaningless commentary from me on some issues I'd just agree that chat icons corresponding with player's chosen difficulty level would be a great addition, despite having it's obvious flaws with "elitism", from both sides of the proverbial fence. Have a similar (yet not) thing in my current "main" game where it shows player's challenges completed in current season so it makes lots easier to see if something comes from a player with experience and who's actually participating instead of a player who's just starting out. Same principle here but for making an informed decision about involving yourself with another player who might cause you some kind of discomfort by their choices or lack of thereof.

Elvenheart · 12:22PM

I think an icon by the name in chat would be a nice thing. If someone asked for help and I think I’m in a position to help them, I will usually give it a try. However, if someone is asking for help with a world boss and I think I’m on a character good enough that two players working together could defeat that world boss, I might join in to help only to find when I get there that I’m really the only one meaningfully contributing to the fight because the other person is choosing to play at a higher difficulty and I might not be able to actually do the boss on my own, so I would be wasting both my time and the other player’s time. If I know in advance that the person asking for help is on Vestige difficulty I would be doing us both a favor not to offer to help at all in that situation.

spartaxoxo · 6:21PM

Yeah and the icon is already available on the group health bars and on the nameplate anyway so it shouldn't be a big deal to have it on the chat as well.

spartaxoxo · 6:35PM

Vestige Difficulty Mannimarco was a fight for the ages and really fun. Also the end animation was really funny because it helped me realize why some people get the good animation and some people pierce nothing. His hit box is just too small but the synergy trigger is big so it's easy to trigger the animation without hitting him and instead pin down the fence.

I know because on Vestige difficulty because of his increases health I had to keep doing it. I got pretty good at it and got a satisfying kill on him on the final one despite missing the first couple of times. If was pretty funny.