SUPRISE ! People dont like VENGEANCE

ioResult · June 17

fizzybeef wrote: »

Vengeance must be SUCH a blast - ZOS is reopening BR because people rather sit in queues then playing vengeance.

No, ZOS is reopening BR because the Welcome to Cyrodiil quest is bugged. If you are locked to GH with one faction but go into Vengeance on another faction toon for the first time, that toon can't complete the Welcome to Cyrodiil quest because you need a Repair Kit to complete it but only have Vengeance Repair Kits.

The only solution to bypass this bug previously was to take the baby toon into another campaign which isn't faction locked to get the repair kit and finish the Welcome to Cyrodiil quest. Those camps were gone with U50.

So now, with the only other camp - Grey Host - being faction locked, it is no longer possible to complete the intro quest which is the one that gives you access to all the other scouting, Kill 20 xxx, and PvDoor quests in Vengeance.

So what's a quick solution to this very real isue? Bring back one of the camps that wasn't faction locked, i.e. Blackreach, until the issue can be addressed in a future update where the quest is fixed for both Vengeance and GH.

THAT is why they are bringing back BR for now.

Instead, they could have just turned the faction lock OFF in Grey Host. But can you imagine how much the faction fanatics in Grey Host would have screamed and howled if ZOS did that? You'd be able to hear the weeping, screaming and gnashing of teeth from the microphone on the Mars lander, it would be so loud.

Bruccius · June 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

You’d be better off asking why so many disagree with you including fellow vengeance players outside this echo chamber

I see you on the forums complaining about people ''asking folks to join Vengeance''.

I don't see anybody in the game - in any of the zones - asking anyone to join Vengeance.

Seems to me the only echo chamber here is your own.

blktauna · June 17

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Xylena is probably busy killing in vengence and not in here complaining.

That would be a first

i guess you've been in queue for the last few days, jusdging by how much you're in here.

If you see him very often in the forums than probably because you are in here as often as him

LOl I am but then I'm all over and I'm complaining about many things.

blktauna · June 17

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Xylena is probably busy killing in vengence and not in here complaining.

That would be a first

i guess you've been in queue for the last few days, jusdging by how much you're in here.

xR3ACTORx wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

Xylena is probably busy killing in vengence and not in here complaining.

That would be a first

i guess you've been in queue for the last few days, jusdging by how much you're in here.

If you see him very often in the forums than probably because you are in here as often as him

XD

Enough said there lol, if @blktauna and the rest were as spicy in cyrodiil as they are here they might do better in greyhost.

I'm no longer in GH because I didn't like waiting in queue, I'm tired of the busted cheese builds and the stutter when too close to a ball group is rage inducing. So no thanks, but this former Emperor will have a blast in Vengence.

blktauna · June 17

[Quoted post has been removed]

The welcome quest for new players is indeed bugged. Vengence has turned off parts and you can not finish it to get quests.
Adding BR will attend to that while helping to ease the queue for those that vehemently dislike the new campaign.

merevie · June 17

Blackreach decision much needed. Still furious they shut down the BR people's home in the first place.

katorga · June 17

merevie wrote: »

Blackreach decision much needed. Still furious they shut down the BR people's home in the first place.

Vengeance covers under 50 and nocp campaigns. You still need two real pvp campaigns.

I will say audio lag is a new one. I didn't think they could make GH worse, but it is still better than vengeance.

Then again, lag, audio stuttering, desyncs, skills not firing seems to be directly correlated to proximity of ball groups. Otherwise performs perfectly for me.

BardokRedSnow · June 17

Bruccius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

You’d be better off asking why so many disagree with you including fellow vengeance players outside this echo chamber

I see you on the forums complaining about people ''asking folks to join Vengeance''.

I don't see anybody in the game - in any of the zones - asking anyone to join Vengeance.

Seems to me the only echo chamber here is your own.

"I didnt see it so it isnt true"

BardokRedSnow · June 17

Again none of this cope is gonna change the fact that Blackreach had to be brought back because people would rather queue in greyhost for hours than help vengeance get some headway.

s3dulo · June 17

As someone who is 95% PVP I will also say I have less than zero interest in playing Vengeance. It is a vastly inferior experience. With the GH queue being clogged and the game play overrun with pulse ganking zergling clones running shattered path signet or hoards of OP WWs, I've just been going to IC. There has actually been a number of respectable players in IC recently who value a fair fight and allow duels to happen.

All in all, ZOS has screwed up some things with PVP that I hope they correct. No harm making mistakes when trying new things, but it's important to be swift in fixing them.

blktauna · June 17

There's nothing cope about it Bardok. Those that like Vengence are in it. Those that don't, have a place to wait. Win win.

amiiegee · June 18

Vengeance is literally empty on all servers.

Bruccius · June 18

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

"I didnt see it so it isnt true"

''I made it up, so it is true.''

CAB_Life · June 18

Does anyone have a video of a 300 vs. 300 battle or even something in the 150 vs 150 range as empirical proof that these population caps for Vengeance are correct? Because I don’t believe it, sorry, but I’m always opened to being proven wrong.

SneaK · June 18

CAB_Life wrote: »

Does anyone have a video of a 300 vs. 300 battle or even something in the 150 vs 150 range as empirical proof that these population caps for Vengeance are correct? Because I don’t believe it, sorry, but I’m always opened to being proven wrong.

Just had to be there bro

SneaK · June 18

amiiegee wrote: »

Vengeance is literally empty on all servers.

I’m certain the Xbox NA folk can’t stand it, it has never had a single bar on any faction filled.

The Uninvited · June 18

katorga wrote: »

Then again, lag, audio stuttering, desyncs, skills not firing seems to be directly correlated to proximity of ball groups. Otherwise performs perfectly for me.

This!

ceruulean · June 18

CAB_Life wrote: »

Does anyone have a video of a 300 vs. 300 battle or even something in the 150 vs 150 range as empirical proof that these population caps for Vengeance are correct? Because I don’t believe it, sorry, but I’m always opened to being proven wrong.

First test:

https://youtu.be/o3qahK2Yp_c?is=WJhyZFgv72vDU-vX

U49 test:

https://youtu.be/qld-pRn2M0Y?is=odcoOtWtKFy2ihOC

I saw a YouTube short where there was a huge battle on Alessia Bridge and the screen was filled with blue names and siege, but YouTube search sucks and I can't find the short anymore. But I can confirm anecdotally that the first test had the highest population, and a lot of fights on the keeps were filled with blue names and I could barely see my character. Subsequent tests had fewer players but it's still decent. On the last day of the U49 test, there was a trifaction fight on BRK with AD killing over 1000+

amiiegee · June 18

And what about since it’s not a test anymore?

blktauna · June 19

Why rhe continuing disparagement? You don't like it great. I don't like the stupid card game but I don't make thread after thread of how it's failing.

If you are angry about the conditions in GH, I'm with you, it blows. Continually trashing Vengence gets you nothing.

Iriidius · June 19

React wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I don't get why you have to put down Vengence. The people that want to go there will go there and the people who want GH will go there. Mutually exclusive groups, mostly.

If you have a problem with GH not being big enough, Yell at ZOS. If you want a blackreach type of overflow, yell at ZOS. That will get you what you need.

The folks in Vengence are doing their thing and it's got nothing to do with GH.

I did give vengeance a chance, but I was always cautious about it for this very reason.

The big issue for me is how much time and development resources have gone into vengeance. PVP doesn't get much to begin with, so to have all these months dedicated to developing a pvp system that I as a pvp player have no intention of interacting with just feels bad. If that time had instead been spent on this new smaller scale zone they've been teasing, for example - we'd probably have that piece of content already.

Disregarding the fact that vengeance was originally just supposed to be a data gathering tool and later became something we'd be permanently saddled with, it really never made much sense. Stripping away the entire combat system to it's bare minimum to allow for a large population was always doomed to fail - because the vast majority of that large population does not want to participate in this kind of stripped down environment to begin with. So now we've got this environment that seems largely dead, meaning it never will even achieve it's purpose of a "900 pop cap campaign" since it will likely never reach those numbers outside a PVP event.

Meanwhile the PVP experience has gotten EVEN WORSE for GH players with the removal of BR/RW since they're now sitting in 50-100 queues every single night - and we haven't even gotten to the weekend yet. My queue on monday took me 1 hour 45 minutes, last night it took me 1 hour 15 minutes. That is a brutal amount of time merely to be able to enter cyrodiil, and for many people who are coming home after work - this is just going to mean they don't play anymore.

The time and development resources gone into vengeance as a campaign cant have been that big if it was originally supposed to be a data gathering tool. If they couldnt have tested it as a campaign using players, they would still have developed it and have to find another way to test it that would have costed much more time and development resources than the way they did it.
It is not much effort to write a reduced variant of code you have written before, you just have to make a copy and remove parts of it. You dont need to solve any errors and problems that you didn’t solved before in when writing the code the first time.
And what makes you think ZOS would have otherwise used that time and development resources to improve GreyHost rather than just unsuccessfully trying to make GreyHost better by adding a feature that you hate as much as vengeance directly to GreyHost and making it worse or just put them into PvE?

Ulvich · June 19

The only reason I enter a Vengeance realm is to check the vendor every week if I get into GH. Aside from that Vengeance doesn't exist to me. I just can't tolerate it.

BardokRedSnow · June 19

Iriidius wrote: »

React wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I don't get why you have to put down Vengence. The people that want to go there will go there and the people who want GH will go there. Mutually exclusive groups, mostly.

If you have a problem with GH not being big enough, Yell at ZOS. If you want a blackreach type of overflow, yell at ZOS. That will get you what you need.

The folks in Vengence are doing their thing and it's got nothing to do with GH.

I did give vengeance a chance, but I was always cautious about it for this very reason.

The big issue for me is how much time and development resources have gone into vengeance. PVP doesn't get much to begin with, so to have all these months dedicated to developing a pvp system that I as a pvp player have no intention of interacting with just feels bad. If that time had instead been spent on this new smaller scale zone they've been teasing, for example - we'd probably have that piece of content already.

Disregarding the fact that vengeance was originally just supposed to be a data gathering tool and later became something we'd be permanently saddled with, it really never made much sense. Stripping away the entire combat system to it's bare minimum to allow for a large population was always doomed to fail - because the vast majority of that large population does not want to participate in this kind of stripped down environment to begin with. So now we've got this environment that seems largely dead, meaning it never will even achieve it's purpose of a "900 pop cap campaign" since it will likely never reach those numbers outside a PVP event.

Meanwhile the PVP experience has gotten EVEN WORSE for GH players with the removal of BR/RW since they're now sitting in 50-100 queues every single night - and we haven't even gotten to the weekend yet. My queue on monday took me 1 hour 45 minutes, last night it took me 1 hour 15 minutes. That is a brutal amount of time merely to be able to enter cyrodiil, and for many people who are coming home after work - this is just going to mean they don't play anymore.

The time and development resources gone into vengeance as a campaign cant have been that big if it was originally supposed to be a data gathering tool.

You ask me thats a major big If and its not one I give them the benefit of the doubt on.

CAB_Life · June 19

ceruulean wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Does anyone have a video of a 300 vs. 300 battle or even something in the 150 vs 150 range as empirical proof that these population caps for Vengeance are correct? Because I don’t believe it, sorry, but I’m always opened to being proven wrong.

First test:
https://youtu.be/o3qahK2Yp_c?is=WJhyZFgv72vDU-vX

U49 test:
https://youtu.be/qld-pRn2M0Y?is=odcoOtWtKFy2ihOC

I saw a YouTube short where there was a huge battle on Alessia Bridge and the screen was filled with blue names and siege, but YouTube search sucks and I can't find the short anymore. But I can confirm anecdotally that the first test had the highest population, and a lot of fights on the keeps were filled with blue names and I could barely see my character. Subsequent tests had fewer players but it's still decent. On the last day of the U49 test, there was a trifaction fight on BRK with AD killing over 1000+

Sorry that first video is nowhere near 150 v 150. Closer to 20 v 20 in the various vignettes. Also killing over 1000+ doesn’t mean 1000 unique player IDs, obviously. Often the lemmings just keep respawning and running off the same cliff.

The bridge video is about 35-40 v 40, which I’ve seen plenty on GH too.

ceruulean · June 19

CAB_Life wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

CAB_Life wrote: »

Does anyone have a video of a 300 vs. 300 battle or even something in the 150 vs 150 range as empirical proof that these population caps for Vengeance are correct? Because I don’t believe it, sorry, but I’m always opened to being proven wrong.

First test:
https://youtu.be/o3qahK2Yp_c?is=WJhyZFgv72vDU-vX

U49 test:
https://youtu.be/qld-pRn2M0Y?is=odcoOtWtKFy2ihOC

I saw a YouTube short where there was a huge battle on Alessia Bridge and the screen was filled with blue names and siege, but YouTube search sucks and I can't find the short anymore. But I can confirm anecdotally that the first test had the highest population, and a lot of fights on the keeps were filled with blue names and I could barely see my character. Subsequent tests had fewer players but it's still decent. On the last day of the U49 test, there was a trifaction fight on BRK with AD killing over 1000+

Sorry that first video is nowhere near 150 v 150. Closer to 20 v 20 in the various vignettes. Also killing over 1000+ doesn’t mean 1000 unique player IDs, obviously. Often the lemmings just keep respawning and running off the same cliff.

The bridge video is about 35-40 v 40, which I’ve seen plenty on GH too.

Dude just decided to ignore AD scoring 1000+ kills in Vegeneance and that 150 v 150 is not proven. Obviously it's not 1000 unique player ids, the pop cap is only 900, and of course people are respawning and coming back, but it's certainly more than 300 unique IDs across the 3 factions. Have fun in Greyhost. I hope you see a 1000+ kills scored battle in GH one day.

Anyway you can look through this thread, theres videos and screenshots:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/674933/feedback-thread-for-cyrodiil-champions-vengeance-campaign/p3

Iriidius · June 19

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

React wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I don't get why you have to put down Vengence. The people that want to go there will go there and the people who want GH will go there. Mutually exclusive groups, mostly.

If you have a problem with GH not being big enough, Yell at ZOS. If you want a blackreach type of overflow, yell at ZOS. That will get you what you need.

The folks in Vengence are doing their thing and it's got nothing to do with GH.

I did give vengeance a chance, but I was always cautious about it for this very reason.

The big issue for me is how much time and development resources have gone into vengeance. PVP doesn't get much to begin with, so to have all these months dedicated to developing a pvp system that I as a pvp player have no intention of interacting with just feels bad. If that time had instead been spent on this new smaller scale zone they've been teasing, for example - we'd probably have that piece of content already.

Disregarding the fact that vengeance was originally just supposed to be a data gathering tool and later became something we'd be permanently saddled with, it really never made much sense. Stripping away the entire combat system to it's bare minimum to allow for a large population was always doomed to fail - because the vast majority of that large population does not want to participate in this kind of stripped down environment to begin with. So now we've got this environment that seems largely dead, meaning it never will even achieve it's purpose of a "900 pop cap campaign" since it will likely never reach those numbers outside a PVP event.

Meanwhile the PVP experience has gotten EVEN WORSE for GH players with the removal of BR/RW since they're now sitting in 50-100 queues every single night - and we haven't even gotten to the weekend yet. My queue on monday took me 1 hour 45 minutes, last night it took me 1 hour 15 minutes. That is a brutal amount of time merely to be able to enter cyrodiil, and for many people who are coming home after work - this is just going to mean they don't play anymore.

The time and development resources gone into vengeance as a campaign cant have been that big if it was originally supposed to be a data gathering tool.

You ask me thats a major big If and its not one I give them the benefit of the doubt on.

React said himself it was supposed to be a data gathering tool, so it cant have been a major big if to him.

blktauna · June 19

React doesn't work for ZOS

BardokRedSnow · June 19

Iriidius wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Iriidius wrote: »

React wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

I don't get why you have to put down Vengence. The people that want to go there will go there and the people who want GH will go there. Mutually exclusive groups, mostly.

If you have a problem with GH not being big enough, Yell at ZOS. If you want a blackreach type of overflow, yell at ZOS. That will get you what you need.

The folks in Vengence are doing their thing and it's got nothing to do with GH.

I did give vengeance a chance, but I was always cautious about it for this very reason.

The big issue for me is how much time and development resources have gone into vengeance. PVP doesn't get much to begin with, so to have all these months dedicated to developing a pvp system that I as a pvp player have no intention of interacting with just feels bad. If that time had instead been spent on this new smaller scale zone they've been teasing, for example - we'd probably have that piece of content already.

Disregarding the fact that vengeance was originally just supposed to be a data gathering tool and later became something we'd be permanently saddled with, it really never made much sense. Stripping away the entire combat system to it's bare minimum to allow for a large population was always doomed to fail - because the vast majority of that large population does not want to participate in this kind of stripped down environment to begin with. So now we've got this environment that seems largely dead, meaning it never will even achieve it's purpose of a "900 pop cap campaign" since it will likely never reach those numbers outside a PVP event.

Meanwhile the PVP experience has gotten EVEN WORSE for GH players with the removal of BR/RW since they're now sitting in 50-100 queues every single night - and we haven't even gotten to the weekend yet. My queue on monday took me 1 hour 45 minutes, last night it took me 1 hour 15 minutes. That is a brutal amount of time merely to be able to enter cyrodiil, and for many people who are coming home after work - this is just going to mean they don't play anymore.

The time and development resources gone into vengeance as a campaign cant have been that big if it was originally supposed to be a data gathering tool.

You ask me thats a major big If and its not one I give them the benefit of the doubt on.

React said himself it was supposed to be a data gathering tool, so it cant have been a major big if to him.

React isnt a zos employee, I don't know what his personal beliefs are or if because he does youtube stuff he doesnt wanna say etc, I wouldnt speculate on it or accuse him etc, but either way I wouldn't blame him if he chose not to say certain things.

For me though, I will call a spade a spade certainly, but Im careful because the forums have a no "conspiracy" policy.

That said, again, I'm not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, and no one's opinion here will change mine on that.

Iriidius · June 19

fizzybeef wrote: »

Vengeance must be SUCH a blast - ZOS is reopening BR because people rather sit in queues then playing vengeance.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

Again none of this cope is gonna change the fact that Blackreach had to be brought back because people would rather queue in greyhost for hours than help vengeance get some headway.

Players were already rather sitting in queue than playing Blackreach before update 50, so the problem already existed when ZOS replaced Blackreach with Vengeance and it will stay after ZOS restored Blackreach either.
Blackreach PC EU rarely got bars even when the GreyHost queue was more than enaugh to fill 2 bars.

NoticeMeArkay · June 19

Vengeance Campaign EU Server - 23:48 UTC +2 friday evening.

Empty.

Meanwhile the Greyhost Campaign on EU - Same time and day.