hoangdz wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

Post a montage with of you Xing using only heart of flame to heal and sustain you if it’s so broken.

Jesus.. the levels that people are willing to go to...You are asking me to prove something so ridiculous, you might as well tell me to fight people while naked.

No, using just Hearf of Flame to heal and sustain won't help me tank 5 people. Neither will Conservation of Energy, which is slightly less broken than HoF but still in dire need of a nerf. Neither will everything else in the game except for Hircine's Fortitude.

That does not mean HoF is balanced. Both HoF and Conservation of Energy are the top healing abilities in a fight, surpassing both Vigor and Critical Surge. THAT is objectively imbalanced. How can you possibly sit here and defend an ability that heals more than Vigor, restores more resources than both Netch + Rune + Orzoga combined, and also deals AoE delayed damage?

Chase0351 wrote: »

Theory crafting < Practical application

Lots of thing look and sound good on paper or in theory. But like Mike Tyson once said “everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the mouth.”

This has all been tested in real fights.

Chase0351 wrote: »

I’m telling you as a dk main this skill will not carry you if you’re fighting against multiple good players with proper builds. It just will not happen. All of the Xing videos on yt are Jedi mind tricks. They show good players killing bad players that over extend and don’t understand positioning.

And I'm telling you as someone who also plays DK that this skill is overperforming.

Chase0351 wrote: »

On the other hand, WW howl and the rest of their kit for that matter will absolutely without a doubt right now full carry a bad player on a meta ww build all day every day and twice on Sunday.

I’m simply asking you to back up your claims. If it’s so broken then let’s see it carry you. Make a clip. No one is asking you to fight with no gear on. Prove what you are saying to be true or stop regurgitating other people’s baseless claims.

hoangdz wrote: »

Chase0351 wrote: »

I’m simply asking you to back up your claims. If it’s so broken then let’s see it carry you. Make a clip. No one is asking you to fight with no gear on. Prove what you are saying to be true or stop regurgitating other people’s baseless claims.

You did not just ask me to back up my claims lol. I can easily do that with 1vX clips in a normal build or by linking other 1vX clips. But that is not what you wanted from me. You literally said this:



Do you understand how insanely absurd that request is? You are effectively saying that the only scenario where HoF can truly be considered overpowered is when you can drop everything else and still survive. That is no different than this person's request on WW:



"WW is only truly imbalanced when a bad player can survive and win fights"
"HoF is only truly imbalanced when a player can survive win fights without needing any additional heals"

Both statements are equally illogical. Like, nobody needs to go to that extreme to just to prove that a skill is beyond busted. If I apply this logic to other aspects of the game, 99% of broken mechanics would've never deserved their nerfs because they weren't capable of being imbalanced on their own. Double infused glyphs meta wouldn't have been broken because you couldn't secure kills only with them. Sloads Semblance could still be healed through hence wasn't busted. Pre-nerfed Rush of Agony couldn't kill people who block and therefore wasn't overperforming. Do you see the point?

So yes, I can post my own 1vX clips on DK using NORMAL abilities and builds or link others' clips (such as @React and @Pelican) to prove that HoF is busted, but I won't go with your request because it is simply too biased.

My personal experience has shown me that the average DK is more of a threat than the average werewolf. This is attuned to the fact that the meta is what allows werewolf to have more damage with as much survivability and any build outside that drops rapidly in efficiency.

Comparing the 2, you can see why the average DK is doing more before they're dying. Even running something like order's wrath and wretched vitality (like this is even needed lol) is going to net you more than doing anything aside from the meta on werewolf. Hence why several here have cited that 'the majority of werewolves don't do much or are just health sponges'. If you look at my thread from before and after PTS it's also very understandable given the damage reduction across the board.

Even if we consider the 'pressure' werewolf is doing, without burst it often falls short outside of a non-cyro 1 v 1. Introducing high amounts of health to the opponent or external healing makes it where I'm simply unable to do meaningful damage or rather enough to kill more than an individual I can isolate (which for me is rare in Cyro). They both have 'infinite sustain' or rather near-infinite without core of flame except the different is only 1 has 3-4 burst moves combined with utility.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

no more insane than claiming werewolves can dominate in every game mode without showing them take a keep as a group, or fight a ball, or even just an outpost.

When did I say WW is dominating every game mode? I’ve specifically listed the environments where WW is currently over performing:

1) 1v1
2) BG
3) Cyrodiil (in specific PvP content such as 1vXing or small scaling)

I’ve also explicitly stated that WW does not perform well in large scale PvP due to its lack of cleave damage and cross healing. Regardless, since WW is outperforming other classes in at least 3 environments, this is objectively grounds for a future balance adjustment. You cannot just apply large-scale PvP as the defacto PvP content in this game and use that to balance everything. It just does not work that way.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

My group can do all that and have minus fighting most ballgroups but I wont count the trash ones in this convo. Aint even seen werewolves lead the charge in a fight, because they die to siege faster than anyone else does, most of their healing is in the rip and tear spammable while parsing you rather than the howl and even gorethief rolls.

In a tower theyre more annoying and can shine for sure, line of sight is their friend, but not as much as dk without even a decent snare removal.

Really the only thing they're good for is singling out individuals that are squishy and Xv1 in cyro, but go off if you like.

Again, you are looking at the game from a very narrowed lens. To you, WW is balanced because it cannot successfully accomplish very specific objectives:

- Taking a keep
- Fight a ball
- Fight an outpost

ANY class can fail those 3 objectives if piloted by a bad player. You have also openly expressed your disatissfaction with subclassing and how much more powerful they are then your DK main pre-rework, which is ironic because I can easily use that example to invalidate your premise. Subclassed builds piloted by a bad player also failed to complete those 3 objectives you mentioned. Does that mean subclassing was balanced?

Or perhaps another comparison could paint this better. You've said several times that you and your groups have no problem wiping and farming WW pugs, yet from my encounters with you in Cyrodiil, you have been mostly zerg-surfing. Clearly my experiences seeing you in combat differ from yours, yet both can be true at the same time. You could actually be soloing when I'm not there to witness, and I could also happen to run into you zerg-surfing and killing WWs easily.

That is the flaw in your premise. Like I said, just because you have wiped average WWs does not mean the class isn't objectively busted. Good WWs are very rare because not many good players actually want to play a 1-bar build, but someone like Pelican are willing to go down that path. I have even welcomed you to fight actual good WWs to see exactly what we mean, and you refused, stating that it's nothing more than an "ego stroke". No it isn't. In fact, I have yet to see a single claim backed by some sort of in-game data or math. All I have seen from your arguments are either "I can kill average WWs therefore the class is fine" or "WW doesn't do well in large scale PvP therefore it is fine". These are takes that I have refuted multiple times and I have yet to see you counter my points.

Not gonna bother replying to specific people or probably posting again after this. It's hard to have conversations in good faith with people who literally sit here and say "well if you aren't streamrolling WWs like the GOOD players either YOU'RE bad or you're just fighting all bad players". How more dismissive and avoidant of evidence to the contrary of "WW is dominating" can you get than that? Anything that doesn't line up with the narrative is "you suck or the people you're fighting suck".

It's hard to have conversations in good faith when people genuinely think the 1% of players should be what the game is balanced around, despite the fact that we've seen time and again that doesn't ever affect the 1% for long. They just minmax theorycraft the next ""OP"" thing, and the only people actually affected by nerfs are the average player who CAN'T easily get back the DPS/healing/tanking they lost because of some horribly ""OP"" thing.

It's hard to have conversations in good faith with people who post several click-bait titles about WW being ""OP"" like there aren't probably dozens of other clickbait videos about X or Y thing being ""OP"". Especially since it's been brought up in the forums time and again that your average person trying to run these ""OP"" builds will rarely perform as well as the build claims to work. Suddenly that doesn't seem to apply to WW.

It's hard to have conversations in good faith when people refuse to acknowledge there are parts of meta builds that are busted that are working in ways with WW they shouldn't. That doesn't mean WW itself is busted, it means the things that are interacting with it poorly (and in unexpected ways, as ZOS themselves admitted) need to be looked at and tweaked. And then depending on how things are looking, THEN think of adjusting WW. But to take the sledgehammer to it over things that aren't inherently wrong with it first is backwards.

Unkillable DPS have been a problem long before WW was able to do it. That doesn't mean there's a problem with WW. It means there's been a long-standing problem with how certain things in Cyro work, and THOSE things need changing rather than WW. Because complaining that the symptom is what needs treated instead of the cause only leads to things being nerfed where they don't need to. It'll keep on being a problem even if WW gets nerfed back into Oblivion, which is where some people seem to want it.

And no, not everyone arguing against heavy-handed nerfs to things are running it in PvP. Some of us don't PvP at all but don't want to see a playstyle that's sucked for literal years get buried again for PvE because of constant calls for PvP nerfs. Maybe instead of just saying "get rid of health based healing" you can ask for it to be halved again by Battle Spirit or something? Ask for adjustments that make sense for PvP without also running PvE builds into the ground as well.

That said, I'm bowing out. It's pointless to keep going in ever-spiraling circles over this. ZOS has data we don't. Hopefully if their data DOES show WW is ""dominating"" in PvP, they'll keep any nerfs to it strictly PvP and not neuter WW again.

I'd be embarrassed playing either pure DK or WW in PvP atm - absolute crutches.

However, if you need one of these to get by in PvP and to be able to compete then fair enough.

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Do you understand how insanely absurd that request is?

no more insane than claiming werewolves can dominate in every game mode without showing them take a keep as a group, or fight a ball, or even just an outpost.

My group can do all that and have minus fighting most ballgroups but I wont count the trash ones in this convo. Aint even seen werewolves lead the charge in a fight, because they die to siege faster than anyone else does, most of their healing is in the rip and tear spammable while parsing you rather than the howl and even gorethief rolls.

In a tower theyre more annoying and can shine for sure, line of sight is their friend, but not as much as dk without even a decent snare removal.

Really the only thing they're good for is singling out individuals that are squishy and Xv1 in cyro, but go off if you like.

Bold is completely false. We play on the same alliance and you somehow miss the WW groups from AD and DC? Or maybe you avoid them. Either way, the bold is completely false. WWs aren't melting from siege, and that's the exact problem.

There isn't any counter to one that's stacked HP because they can sustain forever, output damage, have a large amount of damage reduction, high buff uptimes, etc --it's been said multiple times. And all of that has no real investment cost.

If it takes 6 coldfire sieges to kill a meta WW right now, which is more than it does to take out a META DK, no one is going to convince me that it's reasonable. The only other spec coming close to that is a shield stacking sorc (or equivalent), a purgebot, or a DK with their ult on reducing damage.

But the DK is much more temporary, and even with that ult it won't be anywhere near as long as a WW that they stay up. The sorcs eventually run out of mag and cannot sustain the shields easily either (and they need Lefthander's Aegis to even do it, but that's a separate discussion about the balance of that mythic that we don't need to talk about right now).

Now you can say it's not true, but then just provide video of you sieging the WW groups on PC NA in DC and AD to death without a massive amount of siege. I already know it won't happen because I already am sieging them and I know what siege can and cannot do versus them and everyone else.

The WWs melting to siege have no idea what they are doing. And another question would you melt to siege on WW? How about anyone of the other WW defenders? Be honest. You know you wouldn't.

olda90 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This person here (he knows who he is and was NOT emp) did more or less the same to a high health wolf here:

Hey, thats me! Here's the context for this image. I was;

5 medium, dark elf, triple infused weapon damage, shadow mundus, 3x offensive blue CP, nirnhoned battleaxe, continuous attack active. Orders wrath, rallying, mono. 33k hp.

Igneous says 19k because the recap is showing many instances of damage in one recap item, it hits for 1k ish.

An extremely high damage setup which itself can die fairly easily.

That recap is showing this individual did not block, dodge, or outspace any part of the extremely telegraphed combo across 3 GCDs.

Quite a bit different compared to the 45-50k HP WW doing more damage than you can heal primarily through dots, light attacks, and status effects with zero counterplay, whilst being entirely unkillable.

Hey- that's you! Except you saying 3 GCD is deceptive when you mean in reality you mean all the damage landing in 1-2 GCDs.

Quick context for your context.

Onslaught- 1 GCD

Incinerate- already casted way before

Heart of flame (woah, is this a bi-sustain move and a burst move in one???)- casted up to 4 seconds prior

Igneous (someone remind me... is this a 60 second damage ability?)- casted WAY before

Molten whip- 1 GCD, of course casted IMMEDIATELY after onslaught as onslaught is channeled and leads into the next GCD

Like a 17k whip is remotely miraculous.

///

Your build (if accurate):

-shadow (healing, your buddy literally complained about this)
-3 offensive blue CP (this isn't uncommon and becomes fully moot in BGs where whips still hit HARD)
-orders wrath (healing)
-rallying cry (crit resist and many other very important stats)
-major protection and minor vitality.

These completely exclude any skills just simply how you've built.

This is provably not unique (as in high whip damage with everything landing in 1-2 GCDs) as I have collected a few videos already (I suppose not that 'True' guy) where my health bar is noticeably dropping simply because a DK exists around me.

no point discussing with people using cheats and nowadays there are quite many. I encountered the dk few times in cyro and most likely using armory station glitch since there is no way he can sustain for so long a certain amount of incoming dmg by using rally+wrath with that offensive setup and the guy can stand in the open in a 10vs1 without using much los and tank all the inc dmg and then land you that macro combo for the kill. The other day we killed him 2vs1 after a very long fight and it was quite clear to me what he doing when in cyro.

DKs are meta strong but when it comes to certain players is not anymore about DK or WW or the theorycrafting but about what they using for make it be an extreme unfair fight in an undetectable "smart" way. I've even saw in IC a WW using ulfrid scribing skill...

I do also think though that WW with meta setup is way too braindead strong.

There's a point where gear doesn't matter and power can be derived from positioning, distance, and specific actions at the right place and right time. Not many people can do it and it's part of the "skill" section of the game. If you see someone moving exactly out of the range of your skills and attacking back, you know that you aren't dealing with the run of the mill player and you better get ready.

The game isn't balanced in the slightest, and DK right now is one class where it's easy to do that because they have a skill that gives resources back. And it's why it's also complained about on these forums btw. Go check the PTS section or PvP section and you will find people complaining about DK as well as WW.

That removal of needing to build for sustain allows flexibility that enemies won't have, where you can build and spec into a "specialization" that benefits your playstyle that you otherwise would not. And that is exactly what people are talking about here and with DK, and why it is not balanced.

For some people, that specialization won't matter but for others it can make them into a god tier player. Because roll is extremely powerful (designed to not be sustained), block is powerful, and then we have things like riposte that are REALLY powerful and enable dumb things like 35K leaps out of stealth.

^ ZOS is the one that made such builds possible. I refrain from using boring builds like the one I just said. But not everyone will and if they have the skill to use it, then it will be oppressive to the point that most people can't fight back.

And that is what we are talking about WW here when we say OP, and why people are talking about DK elsewhere. It's the fact that in the right hands with the right conditions most people cannot ever hope to win. And the problem with WW is that it's so simplified and the skills so compressed that it's far easier than any other spec in the game to create those conditions.

It's good that you also agree WW is busted because it's literally the same thing as DK with a different coat of paint. The crazy part is that the endpoint of DK and WW power is not even what you've seen or what they've done. That's the worst part about it; as time goes on people will realize and find the even stronger build combinations that exist soon enough.

Arunei wrote: »

It's hard to have conversations in good faith when people refuse to acknowledge there are parts of meta builds that are busted that are working in ways with WW they shouldn't. That doesn't mean WW itself is busted, it means the things that are interacting with it poorly (and in unexpected ways, as ZOS themselves admitted) need to be looked at and tweaked. And then depending on how things are looking, THEN think of adjusting WW. But to take the sledgehammer to it over things that aren't inherently wrong with it first is backwards.

Unkillable DPS have been a problem long before WW was able to do it.

This is what I've been trying to tell people since week 1 of PTS. There are a handful of things that are making the supposed "meta" Werewolf what it is and none of those things are sourced from the werewolf kit.

Don't let this distract you from the unkillable, high damage, highly mobile Sorcerers or the unkillable Necromancers, or the only slightly more killable but much higher damage Dragon Knights. Nobody seems to be talking about that though. If you haven't encountered these yet, please spend more time in Cyrodiil.

Weesacs wrote: »

I'd be embarrassed playing either pure DK or WW in PvP atm - absolute crutches.

However, if you need one of these to get by in PvP and to be able to compete then fair enough.

My man, it’s a video game. Ain’t none of yall making bank off playing this, not even streamers making enough to play this game only and not work. It’s for fun, and fun alone, play what you like, no one cares what you’re doing.

If all you’re worried about is 1v1s and bgs in the end I can tell you there’s not enough skilled werewolves queueing up to make a fuss, healers still get at the top of the leaderboards, it’s no different than when it was all dk except now we have much more variety, thanks to masteries, and if you are dominating every match in a werewolf only team well good for you, it’s probably less oppressive than immaculates group in there lol

olda90 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

olda90 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This person here (he knows who he is and was NOT emp) did more or less the same to a high health wolf here:

Hey, thats me! Here's the context for this image. I was;

5 medium, dark elf, triple infused weapon damage, shadow mundus, 3x offensive blue CP, nirnhoned battleaxe, continuous attack active. Orders wrath, rallying, mono. 33k hp.

Igneous says 19k because the recap is showing many instances of damage in one recap item, it hits for 1k ish.

An extremely high damage setup which itself can die fairly easily.

That recap is showing this individual did not block, dodge, or outspace any part of the extremely telegraphed combo across 3 GCDs.

Quite a bit different compared to the 45-50k HP WW doing more damage than you can heal primarily through dots, light attacks, and status effects with zero counterplay, whilst being entirely unkillable.

Hey- that's you! Except you saying 3 GCD is deceptive when you mean in reality you mean all the damage landing in 1-2 GCDs.

Quick context for your context.

Onslaught- 1 GCD

Incinerate- already casted way before

Heart of flame (woah, is this a bi-sustain move and a burst move in one???)- casted up to 4 seconds prior

Igneous (someone remind me... is this a 60 second damage ability?)- casted WAY before

Molten whip- 1 GCD, of course casted IMMEDIATELY after onslaught as onslaught is channeled and leads into the next GCD

Like a 17k whip is remotely miraculous.

///

Your build (if accurate):

-shadow (healing, your buddy literally complained about this)
-3 offensive blue CP (this isn't uncommon and becomes fully moot in BGs where whips still hit HARD)
-orders wrath (healing)
-rallying cry (crit resist and many other very important stats)
-major protection and minor vitality.

These completely exclude any skills just simply how you've built.

This is provably not unique (as in high whip damage with everything landing in 1-2 GCDs) as I have collected a few videos already (I suppose not that 'True' guy) where my health bar is noticeably dropping simply because a DK exists around me.

no point discussing with people using cheats and nowadays there are quite many. I encountered the dk few times in cyro and most likely using armory station glitch since there is no way he can sustain for so long a certain amount of incoming dmg by using rally+wrath with that offensive setup and the guy can stand in the open in a 10vs1 without using much los and tank all the inc dmg and then land you that macro combo for the kill. The other day we killed him 2vs1 after a very long fight and it was quite clear to me what he doing when in cyro.

DKs are meta strong but when it comes to certain players is not anymore about DK or WW or the theorycrafting but about what they using for make it be an extreme unfair fight in an undetectable "smart" way. I've even saw in IC a WW using ulfrid scribing skill...

I do also think though that WW with meta setup is way too braindead strong.

There's a point where gear doesn't matter and power can be derived from positioning, distance, and specific actions at the right place and right time. Not many people can do it and it's part of the "skill" section of the game. If you see someone moving exactly out of the range of your skills and attacking back, you know that you aren't dealing with the run of the mill player and you better get ready.

The game isn't balanced in the slightest, and DK right now is one class where it's easy to do that because they have a skill that gives resources back. And it's why it's also complained about on these forums btw. Go check the PTS section or PvP section and you will find people complaining about DK as well as WW.

That removal of needing to build for sustain allows flexibility that enemies won't have, where you can build and spec into a "specialization" that benefits your playstyle that you otherwise would not. And that is exactly what people are talking about here and with DK, and why it is not balanced.

For some people, that specialization won't matter but for others it can make them into a god tier player. Because roll is extremely powerful (designed to not be sustained), block is powerful, and then we have things like riposte that are REALLY powerful and enable dumb things like 35K leaps out of stealth.

^ ZOS is the one that made such builds possible. I refrain from using boring builds like the one I just said. But not everyone will and if they have the skill to use it, then it will be oppressive to the point that most people can't fight back.

And that is what we are talking about WW here when we say OP, and why people are talking about DK elsewhere. It's the fact that in the right hands with the right conditions most people cannot ever hope to win. And the problem with WW is that it's so simplified and the skills so compressed that it's far easier than any other spec in the game to create those conditions.

It's good that you also agree WW is busted because it's literally the same thing as DK with a different coat of paint. The crazy part is that the endpoint of DK and WW power is not even what you've seen or what they've done. That's the worst part about it; as time goes on people will realize and find the even stronger build combinations that exist soon enough.

i wont stay into this discussion becouse for me its pointless to talk in forums where everyone can express their theories and ideas but then you mostly don't know what they actually are capable to do in the game (and if they are legit or not). In the same way i wont even stay here crunching numbers, theorycraft or "player skills" since it makes no sense when on the other side there is someone cheating even it has the strongest minmax meta setup or is a "skilled player" becouse at some point its none of that BS.

I play DK myself killed many of these "op dk" but at certain point when it comes to some ppl its nothing that has to due with balance, builds or player skills. And still many ppl that dont play DK think Heart of Flame is a skill that gives that infinite sustain but this is not true when it comes to a 1vsX without using los or mobility, and ppl that actually never play 1vsX that are the majority dont know how short window time you actually have for get a kill when there are even +2-3 players (that aint complete trash or 0 dmg) chasing you.

But as i said its pointless to discuss this in a forum.

ZOS knows all of this and WW imo was designed for give to the average/newbie/solo/pve player a simple build they could play on 1 bar and be effective in pvp.

The bold conclusion canont be true because if ZOS wanted to make it easier for power to be distributed among players, why wouldn't they just...you know... buff siege instead?

Buffing siege would actually solve a lot of problems in the game, even population issues and discrepencies + ball groups.

If ZOS wanted to level the playing field why wouldn't they have gone the route of buffing current siege and introducing newer siege like ones that do HP% damage to counter hp stacking balls, siege that offers negate, siege that cancels invisibility in an area, etc. ?

I highly doubt if the goal was to address a balance issue in the game and provide people from PvE or new to the game options to fight back against "pros" that they would choose an ultimate, and a skill line that not everyone can run or would run, that could be progressively stronger in the hands of the very same "pros" you imply it was meant to address.

Fact is, the design of the WW changes seemed to have just been pushed through without any real thought of the game and an overall systemic approach at balancing in the slightest. There's no real indication that it was meant to balance anything, not when it takes 6x coldfire siege to take a META WW out, and more than one of these same builds are playing in the same battlespace.

Know what that means? It means ZOS essentially made WW a "I win" button as long as you stack enough of them, and there isn't any counter. ZOS even reduced the number of diesease and poison sources recently, and meatbag damage against a werewolf is a joke -- just use coldfire.

Absolutely disagree with the idea that it was introduced to alleviate anything in PvP, esp. when WW just became an issue in and of itself.

Chase0351 wrote: »

Luneca wrote: »

olda90 wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

React wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

This person here (he knows who he is and was NOT emp) did more or less the same to a high health wolf here:

Hey, thats me! Here's the context for this image. I was;

5 medium, dark elf, triple infused weapon damage, shadow mundus, 3x offensive blue CP, nirnhoned battleaxe, continuous attack active. Orders wrath, rallying, mono. 33k hp.

Igneous says 19k because the recap is showing many instances of damage in one recap item, it hits for 1k ish.

An extremely high damage setup which itself can die fairly easily.

That recap is showing this individual did not block, dodge, or outspace any part of the extremely telegraphed combo across 3 GCDs.

Quite a bit different compared to the 45-50k HP WW doing more damage than you can heal primarily through dots, light attacks, and status effects with zero counterplay, whilst being entirely unkillable.

Hey- that's you! Except you saying 3 GCD is deceptive when you mean in reality you mean all the damage landing in 1-2 GCDs.

Quick context for your context.

Onslaught- 1 GCD

Incinerate- already casted way before

Heart of flame (woah, is this a bi-sustain move and a burst move in one???)- casted up to 4 seconds prior

Igneous (someone remind me... is this a 60 second damage ability?)- casted WAY before

Molten whip- 1 GCD, of course casted IMMEDIATELY after onslaught as onslaught is channeled and leads into the next GCD

Like a 17k whip is remotely miraculous.

///

Your build (if accurate):

-shadow (healing, your buddy literally complained about this)
-3 offensive blue CP (this isn't uncommon and becomes fully moot in BGs where whips still hit HARD)
-orders wrath (healing)
-rallying cry (crit resist and many other very important stats)
-major protection and minor vitality.

These completely exclude any skills just simply how you've built.

This is provably not unique (as in high whip damage with everything landing in 1-2 GCDs) as I have collected a few videos already (I suppose not that 'True' guy) where my health bar is noticeably dropping simply because a DK exists around me.

no point discussing with people using cheats and nowadays there are quite many. I encountered the dk few times in cyro and most likely using armory station glitch since there is no way he can sustain for so long a certain amount of incoming dmg by using rally+wrath with that offensive setup and the guy can stand in the open in a 10vs1 without using much los and tank all the inc dmg and then land you that macro combo for the kill. The other day we killed him 2vs1 after a very long fight and it was quite clear to me what he doing when in cyro.

DKs are meta strong but when it comes to certain players is not anymore about DK or WW or the theorycrafting but about what they using for make it be an extreme unfair fight in an undetectable "smart" way. I've even saw in IC a WW using ulfrid scribing skill...

I do also think though that WW with meta setup is way too braindead strong.

There's a point where gear doesn't matter and power can be derived from positioning, distance, and specific actions at the right place and right time. Not many people can do it and it's part of the "skill" section of the game. If you see someone moving exactly out of the range of your skills and attacking back, you know that you aren't dealing with the run of the mill player and you better get ready.

The game isn't balanced in the slightest, and DK right now is one class where it's easy to do that because they have a skill that gives resources back. And it's why it's also complained about on these forums btw. Go check the PTS section or PvP section and you will find people complaining about DK as well as WW.

That removal of needing to build for sustain allows flexibility that enemies won't have, where you can build and spec into a "specialization" that benefits your playstyle that you otherwise would not. And that is exactly what people are talking about here and with DK, and why it is not balanced.

For some people, that specialization won't matter but for others it can make them into a god tier player. Because roll is extremely powerful (designed to not be sustained), block is powerful, and then we have things like riposte that are REALLY powerful and enable dumb things like 35K leaps out of stealth.

^ ZOS is the one that made such builds possible. I refrain from using boring builds like the one I just said. But not everyone will and if they have the skill to use it, then it will be oppressive to the point that most people can't fight back.

And that is what we are talking about WW here when we say OP, and why people are talking about DK elsewhere. It's the fact that in the right hands with the right conditions most people cannot ever hope to win. And the problem with WW is that it's so simplified and the skills so compressed that it's far easier than any other spec in the game to create those conditions.

It's good that you also agree WW is busted because it's literally the same thing as DK with a different coat of paint. The crazy part is that the endpoint of DK and WW power is not even what you've seen or what they've done. That's the worst part about it; as time goes on people will realize and find the even stronger build combinations that exist soon enough.

You must not play dk on any meaningful level because as I’ve already said to another mistaken poster on this thread hof is not carrying your sustain. Any dk that’s fought outnumbered on a regular basis knows that. When you are getting real pressure where you have to actively block cast, roll dodge onslaughts, pop elder dragon followed up by vigor, recast your buffs and counter attack with damage of your own you soon realize how nice it would be to have something like wretched or roksa on unless your running recovery food but then your stats take a hit so something has to give because hof is not going to cut it on its own against good players. Not happening. Good dk’s know this. So please stop regurgitating misinformation.

How do you know? I've used DK even when it had that "1 year" where it was the most mediocre class in the game. You know, the year when the searing claw and other DoTs weren't allowed to stack and DK skills became useless on the bar in PvP and PvE?

But of course you can't find an actual refutation so you go "ah well you're not experienced". Here's a newsflash: not everyone plays the game the same way.

I never once needed nor have ever slotted Wretched Vitality. In fact, if you ask me, it's a waste. If I want resources back, esp. on the current DK, I'm not slotting Wretched.

I also dont' hold block on DK nor need to block cast and prefer roll every time vs. block. Wow, look how crazy that is. I'm completely different than you are at how we use the same class.

But let me guess, "good DKs" like you and whoever you cite, know better than I do about how to tailor a build to my tendencies and habits and overcome the limitations in the game?

Please do enlighten me with more knowledge. I'm always ready to learn. But I'm still just going to fire siege anyway.

hoangdz wrote: »

]

Again, you are looking at the game from a very narrowed lens. To you, WW is balanced because it cannot successfully accomplish very specific objectives:

- Taking a keep
- Fight a ball
- Fight an outpost

Believe it or not, about a week ago I watched a small group of only WW’s on a ram breaking down the fd of a keep. Dogs on a ram. That’s like the pinnacle of fantasy role playing. It was actually entertaining to watch but what a strong element to have breaching the fd because once they’re in everything gets rolled. GG’s

Weesacs wrote: »

I'd be embarrassed playing either pure DK or WW in PvP atm - absolute crutches.

However, if you need one of these to get by in PvP and to be able to compete then fair enough.

I know right? But dang, if you’re on a status effect, pulse gank, tanky shield stacking sorc, tanky warden, immortal necro, beam spamming arc, cloak crunching nb or any other cheese build in this game then you’ve got zero room to talk. If you use proc sets to do any damage for you specifically if it procs off of a light or heavy attacks then you’ve got zero room to talk.

Can we get back on topic to OP and actually discuss what’s out of wack currently at the moment? If you’re still getting rolled by dk’s you need to l2p because they can be countered. Meta ww cannot and that is the discussion at hand. Please bring something more meaningful to the discussion next time, thank you.

Chase0351 wrote: »

albertberku wrote: »

I dont play DK but just looking at the tooltip.

Does HoF tick 2 times or 3 times? Lets say average 10k missing ressources, which would be a quite conservative estimate, i assume? At 2 times tick, you are getting 3k magicka + 3k stamina in 4 seconds. This is about 0 magicka and 750 stamina per second. And that would be +1500 stamina recovery. If it ticks 3 times that would be +750 magicka recovery and +2250 stamina recovery.

Together with Major buffs, Wretched Vitality gives around +700 stamina/magicka recovery. Roksa +400. Sustain food +500. All combined +1600 magicka/stamina recovery when buffed.

That first sentence you wrote is very important as context for the rest of your post.

You do not play dk so on paper and in theory anything sounds plausible. Most of the players that say hof is broken fall into your demographic, they are not dk’s. HoF is a supplemental skill and will not carry you. We can take any class skill in the game and stack it with defensive or sustain sets to maximize ridiculousness. But then you are not killing anything and people either Zerg you down or just walk away because you’re a meme at that point. Over investing into sustain or defense and then claiming a skill is broken, one link in the chain, is misleading.

HoF is broken.. so far ZOS is deprioritizing sustain on the refreshes. Neither refresh so far requires a single recov glyph, that’s pretty insane compared to the past decade of ESO. Let’s not act like everything is just business as usual, it’s not. ZOS is changing everything, HoF’ish skills might be going to every class, we don’t know. But until it’s all said and done let’s call a spade a spade. “Sustain” is broken.

Where it gets wild on DK, is the fact that you also don’t need to build for penetration at all. Those are two big stats that are completely omitted because of two skills. WW’s issue is similar, but it’s also more complicated cause it’s the health scaling and specific class masteries along with a mythic. It’s a combination of things that become broken.

I don’t want nerfs, I’d take counters, but just putting out my observation.