Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

Just replace veteran with the 4 lvl of difficulty ;
keep HM because it has different mech then normal/vet

@zos but we definitively need better rewards or this system will die soon and nobody will play vestige.

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that a lot of players will go back to Adventurer as the new wears off anyway. It's just way more efficient and that is important for players that have limited time to play.

I originally thought I will just get the achievements and then probably go back to Adventurer. But after playing at all levels, nah, I will leave it to Seasoned.

I see almost no difference in Adventurer and Seasoned, but the latter is free 20% extra xp.

I am Adventurer and I feel far from weak. Taking down enemies very quickly and easily shows that my character is strong. Struggling to defeat enemies is what would make me feel weak.

SilverBride wrote: »

I am Adventurer and I feel far from weak. Taking down enemies very quickly and easily shows that my character is strong. Struggling to defeat enemies is what would make me feel weak.

I think if you tried Seasoned on normal trash mobs you wouldn't struggle as much as you think. Either way it's just an option

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

omegatay_ESO wrote: »

I would really like ZoS after 6 months to a year give us the results of this. I want to know how much of the player base plays on what difficulty. I bet most stick with default and this was not needed. But yea, just really courious.

I think you will be surprised.

I think the distribution will be a bit more even.

I agree with @omegatay_ESO. I don't see very many players using difficulty now and feel that the new will soon wear off and give way to efficiency and convenience.

I doubt they will give us any data though.

How can you tell if someone is? I mean you can probably tell if someone is running Vestige difficulty. But the lower ones?

I have been running around on seasoned a bit and honestly, i can barely tell that something has changed.

I have to hit one more button in seasoned than I do in adventure; I'm sure everyone notices that one extra second it is taking me.

Once again here to explain:

I am not advocating for an entirely new instancing system, though it would be great… that’s not what this feedback is about.

I’m stating that based on my experience playing Vestige, I have found that the rewards are not aspirational enough to incentivize playing the difficulty outside of our Guild Events that require it.

Only a fraction of a fraction of our playerbase are incentivized by “personal challenge” regardless of what is being overrepresented here on this forum. I keep reading that this system was made for those who value “personal challenge” yet we’ve always been able to self-nerf to provide that, creating limitless personal challenges yet how many people did this…?

I’m in over 20 Discords for ESO and I have heard of someone doing this maybe once or twice over the last decade.

Are those “personal challenge” people in the room with us now? I’ve got a great case study for you guys.

Look around.

Count 20 people at any town hub for their difficulty visible next to their Username and see for yourself what “Challenge” people are seeking… and hey. I get it. Vestige isn’t designed for everyone…

Yet; the ones capable of playing it have been trained by a decade of meritocratic content…

>You work harder for better loot.
>You get better to work harder.

Loot-based RPGs have always worked like this, and will always function this way. For those not looking to progress their character and their abilities, there are other/better options available to you, go check out Crimson Desert.

Consistency is incredibly important, and without aspirational rewards the like of which we’ve found everywhere else for the past decade, I don’t see this system having staying power… and I hate that.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I’m stating that based on my experience playing Vestige, I have found that the rewards are not aspirational enough to incentivize playing the difficulty outside of our Guild Events that require it.

Then don't play on Vestige. They added the difficulties as an extra as according to ZOS, that was one of the most requested features. It was asked from them, they delivered.

It is not technically feasible to separate Adventurers from Vestiges, as they have said. And to avoid exploits, there can't be much extra benefit for playing on Vestige. But the difficulty levels were one of their most requested features, so they delivered it anyway.

I like to challenge myself and enjoy soloing dungeons. There is no extra reward for me except the thrill of success when you complete something that was not meant to be soloed. Still, I do not enjoy Vestige difficulty, so I don't play it. I like my overland easy and my dungeons difficult. And I am not forced to play Vestige against my will.

It is absolutely great that there is no forced Vestige difficulty, beyond the easy achievement. I would not like it if there would be some unique rewards you can only get after you played hours and hours on Vestige. Luckily, the mode was designed for those who want their overland more difficult and the mode itself is the reward.

So, if you don't like it, don't use it. It really is that simple.

SilverBride wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree with @omegatay_ESO. I don't see very many players using difficulty now and feel that the new will soon wear off and give way to efficiency and convenience.

I doubt they will give us any data though.

How can you tell if someone is? I mean you can probably tell if someone is running Vestige difficulty. But the lower ones?

I have been running around on seasoned a bit and honestly, i can barely tell that something has changed.

They have a different health bar. Like the ones seen on dangerous enemies like river trolls for example, and world bosses, depending on which difficulty level they are using.

Ah ok never noticed. Have to look. I have to use addons for health bars so mine might be missing an update. Health bars aren't exactly easy to for me to see clearly

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

Which is the exact reason some of us said it would fail....

A stop-gap solution will not meet the desire and it still either won't stay hard enough for long enough OR it will be too hard and people will quit trying.

I thought the devs were pretty clear that at the outset we wouldn't get massive loot, but that they might consider changing that later. I see this as simply a starting point where we can now test it and give more specific feedback that the devs can build on for a later update. Now it's live the devs can see how players use difficulty and iterate on the system.

I can't even imagine what sort of loot table would be considered "good enough" for Vestige kills anyway. I think the dyes are far better than the ugly mounts etc we often get for completing vet content. So if we're talking rewards, I'm really happy with them. I only looked to see what I needed to kill for the Vestige one, so they were a great surprise to find. Perfectly suited to what I wanted to use the difficulty system for. Earning them by killing x number of different foes also encourages players to spread out and not be fighting over the same three bosses. And allowing players to get the dyes at lower levels makes it accessible to everyone too, which is another good thing. I certainly wouldn't call this a failure, I think dyes are far more versatile than neon mounts/markings I never use and it's implemented in a way that doesn't just cater to Vestige try-hards.

Arunei wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Applying the logic that the difficulty is the reward, we should go ahead and remove all veteran and hard mode achievements in dungeons and trials, along with all of their respective rewards…

How many people would agree to this?

You can't compare the two, because the point of doing those activities IS to be rewarded. The rewards are incentives for engaging with that content.

Challenge Difficulty is NOT the same thing. The content itself is the incentive and the reward. That's how it was always meant to be from the start. So many people claimed that they only wanted to actually be engaged in Overland combat, they wanted to be challenged, they wanted to feel danger. That's the entire reason it was implemented. It wasn't content meant to give additional rewards beyond making things harder so people could feel that sense of danger and engagement.

you can most definitely compare the two. Both are difficulties you are opting into. It seems many in this post want to get the same rewards as people are stricving for very difficult achievements. Thats just not fair. If you want the rewards, strap on the boots get your paws dirty.

Radiate77 wrote: »

After running around questing with my partner for about 6 hours in-game total since this update, exclusively on Vestige, with great builds between us, I can say with 100% certainty that Vestige is not a rewarding enough experience.

To put it simply, the XP and gold payout do not equate the difficulty spike associated with them.

That said, there is a lot of potential here to add all kinds of achievements that reward cosmetics, like outfits, skill styles, adornments, titles, ect… for completing instanced quest content on Vestige, but two changes need to be made before that can happen.

• Difficulty needs to be determined by your Party Lead, not individual to each player.
• Quests need to be repeatable.

Getting to the point where you can be successful on Vestige, should feel incredible. Right now it doesn’t…

To be honest, this is the one of VERY few updates from ZOS I can actually say I enjoy.
The rewards shouldn't matter with Vestige play..
By end game, normal difficulty was FAR TOO EASY..
This is actually making the PvE gameplay enjoyable, I can't just run through and pull all the mobs to 1 shot them.

I actually have to watch, block, dodge, and interrupt mobs to not get 1 shot, its made PvE not so dull and boring!
It feels like the monsters are actually trying to kill me.

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SundarahFr3akinrican wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

There is none. There isn't meant to be beyond personal preference.

Clarification: Vestige is the incentive and reward. It's entirely a sense of self-accomplishment.

This is not how many people look at it. I know this got a lot of thumbs ups, but many people see it to be pointless without some added reward structure attached.

The devs have also said this is the first iteration. People that accomplish something difficult should be rewarded for such. Tangible rewards.

Then don't self-nerf and just enjoy the game as is.

So do you believe games shouldnt have reward systems?

Eso has a reward system. So does the difficulty mode. Or are unlocking dyes are ticking off achievements not rewardimg enough?

Because there are plenty of activities that I value in ESO that do not have dyes, and plenty of others that dont even have achievements associated with them.

Games are designed to be enjoyable and fun. What defines that is subjective, but that they should be is not.

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

SkillzMFG wrote: »

Again, the same 'no fun allowed' crowd that was against the difficulty system in the first place, that is against fixing the companion difficulty issue, is also against better rewards for Vestige.

People who are bad at the game trying to keep everyone else down just because they can't be bothered to play and get better at the game they claim to love.

This is why ESO has gotten in a state in which it currently is, and why the population keeps declining.

Yes, just put down everyone who is against more rewards for something that was asked for apparently fun & challenge alone.

Not everyone playing this game plays to be a dps ‘god’ or thinks that is the ultimate or only way to play. People play this game for many reasons; who are you to insult them if they don’t play the way you think they should?

I’m not bad at this game; have some trifectas & HM etc but I do not think that Vestige level should get more rewards. I can ‘git gud’ at this game without torturing myself at a Vestige level dragon, but then my self-worth is not tied up with how much dps I do in a game.

On a more general note, more rewards would mean another re-working of the system as otherwise, as has been pointed out, it would be incredibly easy to cheese these new shinies, and I would prefer the devs to be using their time more productively on other aspects of the game.

To be fair here, a very very large amount of achievements and rewards in eso can be "cheesed". There is a reason there is a market for buying and selling such things as trifecta unlocks, weapons, etc.

Gonna post this here as well since idk how many people are reading the Overland thread:

Arunei wrote: »

Let me ask this:

Back before we had CD as an option, one of the common things people were told to do was go naked to make stuff harder. So let's say someone decided to remove all their gear, unmorph all their Skills and let's even say remove all their Passives, and unspec all their Attribute Points and CP. They've become essentially become a brand new character right out of character creation, just with more Skills than a brand new character would have.

Does it make sense to say this player should get higher rewards than someone who opted NOT to do all of that to make the game harder? Or would it just be recognized as someone imposing restrictions on themselves and not changing anything about the game itself such as mechanics, mob damage/health, or loot tables?

Like I said, I don't really care if rewards are added. If there's something I want I'll just poke some friends and we'll spend time working towards it. My point is still that the setting wasn't designed to give rewards and that it's also a little bit weird that it does considering it's a self-imposed debuff.

I do agree that both the Gold and Exp gain on Master and Vestige both could stand to get increased a fair bit. I don't play on either of those hardly at all, a few times I've put on Master while running around in Spell Scar to try and offset the Exp loss you get when there are a number of people around you, but it hardly seemed to make a difference.