Let the Group Leader set the group's Challenge Difficulty setting.

Erickson9610 · June 14

I'd like to see a setting like the Dungeon Mode difficulty setting, but for the group's Challenge Difficulty setting:

There should be 5 settings:

No Override (Default setting, allows each group member to use their own Challenge Difficulty setting. This is how it's like in Update 50.)
Adventurer (Forces every group member into Adventurer difficulty)
Seasoned (Forces every group member into Seasoned difficulty)
Master (Forces every group member into Master difficulty)
Vestige (Forces every group member into Vestige difficulty)

When you leave the group, you return to your original difficulty setting. The difficulty setting of the group only applies to people in that group.

I want to see this feature added to ESO mainly for group events. I run with guilds who do overland content, and we like to challenge ourselves with harder difficulties. The issue with the current implementation is that some players may forget to apply their personal Challenge Difficulty setting and end up negating the challenge for the group as a whole.

A guaranteed way to ensure all group members are using the correct difficulty like the idea proposed above would ensure the integrity of guild events involving harder difficulties.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

reazea · June 14

Why would groups need a challenge difficulty toggle? Are people forming groups to run overland content now?

Erickson9610 · June 14

reazea wrote: »

Why would groups need a challenge difficulty toggle? Are people forming groups to run overland content now?

Yes, guilds sometimes run events in overland zones, where they collect skyshards, complete delves/public dungeons, defeat world bosses, and so on. It's great for helping new characters get skill points and complete the map.

The difficulty setting is useful for those guilds because it gives the veteran players more of a challenge, and it helps the newer players learn how to survive with harder difficulty, which is useful for training players to tackle harder difficulty content like Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, and (of course) PvP.

reazea · June 14

Erickson9610 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Why would groups need a challenge difficulty toggle? Are people forming groups to run overland content now?

Yes, guilds sometimes run events in overland zones, where they collect skyshards, complete delves/public dungeons, defeat world bosses, and so on. It's great for helping new characters get skill points and complete the map.

The difficulty setting is useful for those guilds because it gives the veteran players more of a challenge, and it helps the newer players learn how to survive with harder difficulty, which is useful for training players to tackle harder difficulty content like Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, and (of course) PvP.

If they're new players they won't be interested in challenge difficulty. I don't know any vet players that are interested in it either. We just play the harder content like vet trials and PvP in Grey Host if we want a challenge.

Erickson9610 · June 14

reazea wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Why would groups need a challenge difficulty toggle? Are people forming groups to run overland content now?

Yes, guilds sometimes run events in overland zones, where they collect skyshards, complete delves/public dungeons, defeat world bosses, and so on. It's great for helping new characters get skill points and complete the map.

The difficulty setting is useful for those guilds because it gives the veteran players more of a challenge, and it helps the newer players learn how to survive with harder difficulty, which is useful for training players to tackle harder difficulty content like Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, and (of course) PvP.

If they're new players they won't be interested in challenge difficulty. I don't know any vet players that are interested in it either. We just play the harder content like vet trials and PvP in Grey Host if we want a challenge.

I've run with guilds with newer players who are interested in Challenge Difficulty, though. And obviously there are plenty of vet players who enjoy it.

Of course we have the option of running the harder content, but for guild events where we run around in overland zones to collect Skill Points to level up our new characters, we're actively choosing to be in overland zones. Thus, we might want the ability to enforce the difficulty setting if we plan on being in overland zones.

It's better for groups to have the option. I imagine many groups won't touch the difficulty setting, but guilds that run events in overland zones would benefit from this.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Good idea 💡

Gabriel_H · June 14

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The difficulty setting is useful for those guilds because it gives the veteran players more of a challenge, and it helps the newer players learn how to survive with harder difficulty, which is useful for training players to tackle harder difficulty content like Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, and (of course) PvP.

I was with you right up until that point.

What makes dungeons/trials difficult isn't how hard the mobs hit, or even how much damage you can do to them, it's the complexity of the fight. It's learning the mechanics of the phases and when they happen.

There is no change in the complexity in overland between Adventurer and Vestige. As someone who spends time training newbies in dungeons and trials, I have to say that using overland as a training ground for that is not going to help them.

katanagirl1 · June 14

I would not want to queue up for a group dungeon and find that the leader has a higher difficulty setting than I have and that I would be forced to play at that level. That seems to be what you are suggesting.

LunaFlora · June 14

No thanks, i do not want my Challenge Difficulty to be changed by anyone besides me

DestroyerPewnack · June 14

Totally agreed, and a little surprised this wasn't implemented from the start. This would breathe new life into guilds running guild events.

SilverBride · June 14

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

DestroyerPewnack · June 14

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

tomofhyrule · June 14

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

In this case, then the group lead can just ask the group members to be on a specific difficulty though. It's possible for groups to all choose that, and then it's not mandated from someone else.

This suggestion removes the agency of the players.

Kickimanjaro · June 14

No, I don't want to see something like this added.

The scenario you describe can simply be handled with communication, "Hey, guys! We're gonna go run these in Vestige, please adjust your challenge difficulties and we'll start!" There are icons which show the currently active challenge difficulty mode on players, so you could see if someone wasn't playing the way you want and ask them to switch. You'd also be able to tell by seeing things dying too quick. This could also let you have someone join who might not be ready for one difficulty but is comfortable playing the next one down. Locking players to the group leader's choice would not allow for this unless players could override with a higher difficulty, and at that point, why even have such a feature in the first place?

I think the current system which relies on individual player selection is fine.

SilverBride · June 14

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

Overland difficulty options don't work in dungeons. Also, normal and veteran dungeons are 2 different places. it is not possible for each player in the group to choose a completely different dungeon.

SkaiFaith · June 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

The difficulty setting is useful for those guilds because it gives the veteran players more of a challenge, and it helps the newer players learn how to survive with harder difficulty, which is useful for training players to tackle harder difficulty content like Dungeons, Trials, Arenas, and (of course) PvP.

I was with you right up until that point.

What makes dungeons/trials difficult isn't how hard the mobs hit, or even how much damage you can do to them, it's the complexity of the fight. It's learning the mechanics of the phases and when they happen.

There is no change in the complexity in overland between Adventurer and Vestige. As someone who spends time training newbies in dungeons and trials, I have to say that using overland as a training ground for that is not going to help them.

Not saying Overland is a training ground for Trials mechanics but Vestige or Master are way better teachers than Adventurer - Devs themselves pointed out that in Adventurer you don't even have the time to see mobs attacks, while in Vestige you get to see all their abilities (which you may very well not even know they had before) 'cause the fights take longer. Surely you have to learn to be mobile, while before you could stay still.

virtus753 · June 14

LunaFlora wrote: »

No thanks, i do not want my Challenge Difficulty to be changed by anyone besides me

Agreed.

A quick reminder to check one’s personal difficulty setting is infinitely more desirable to me than having someone else control my personal settings, which (even when well intentioned) takes away my personal autonomy and responsibility.

Group leads also don’t get to override my other personal combat settings (FoV, enemy AoE colors, ground casts, third- vs. first-person, etc.) or whether I can attack a particular target (ZOS shut that down real quick), even if my choices there are actively hurting the group because I die to things I couldn’t see, take multiple GCDs to cast a ground skill instead of one, or choose to push the twins or Bahsei or whatnot. I have a responsibility to my group to act in the interests of the group, which here means having appropriate difficulty settings. If I missed something, that’s when someone can communicate with me and I can make a change rather than someone else controlling my settings on the assumption I won’t get it right and won’t be able to fix it when asked. That’s how even good intentions can lead to learned helplessness.

Erickson9610 · June 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

In this case, then the group lead can just ask the group members to be on a specific difficulty though. It's possible for groups to all choose that, and then it's not mandated from someone else.

This suggestion removes the agency of the players.

The issue is that sometimes group members fail to select and apply the agreed upon difficulty.

DestroyerPewnack · June 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

In this case, then the group lead can just ask the group members to be on a specific difficulty though. It's possible for groups to all choose that, and then it's not mandated from someone else.

This suggestion removes the agency of the players.

I'm with you, but can you imagine being an event lead, having a full group, and being forced to check each player's health bar individually to make sure they have the right difficulty set? And many people who join overland guild events are new to the game, and might not be familiar with how to change their overland difficulty.

The point is, the player maintains agency either way. You can always leave the group, if it's too difficult for you. And OP's suggestion includes a default option, with no group leader override, for people who want to play together but on different difficulties. It's a win-win.

LunaFlora · June 14

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

In this case, then the group lead can just ask the group members to be on a specific difficulty though. It's possible for groups to all choose that, and then it's not mandated from someone else.

This suggestion removes the agency of the players.

The issue is that sometimes group members fail to select and apply the agreed upon difficulty.

You can tell them that they need to select and apply the agreed upon difficulty.
if they do not agree, that is their choice, and you have the choice to kick them from the group.

DestroyerPewnack · June 14

LunaFlora wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

In this case, then the group lead can just ask the group members to be on a specific difficulty though. It's possible for groups to all choose that, and then it's not mandated from someone else.

This suggestion removes the agency of the players.

The issue is that sometimes group members fail to select and apply the agreed upon difficulty.

You can tell them that they need to select and apply the agreed upon difficulty.
if they do not agree, that is their choice, and you have the choice to kick them from the group.

Sure, that would work. But OP's suggestion is more efficient, especially for the purpose they're suggesting it (overland guild events.)
It's much easier for one person to set the difficulty for the entire group, than it is for one person to check, make sure and guide 11 other players to have the correct difficulty set.

virtus753 · June 14

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

These are not analogous.

An instance’s difficulty is a setting that applies to the instance. It changes the mobs and mechanics in the instance rather than the player characters. The group lead is thus controlling the environment, not the players within it. When the latter was attempted, it took a matter of days for ZOS to shut it down.

Personal difficulty settings for overland are the opposite. They change the player character, not the world around it. Each person has the ability to control that setting for themselves at all times as part of retaining control over their character. If the group wants everyone to choose the same thing together, they are all more than capable of selecting the appropriate setting without someone doing it for them. Friendly reminders here would go a long way towards supporting personal agency, responsibility, and interpersonal relations. If a person needs to have their difficulty settings controlled because they refuse to set it appropriately for the group after a reminder, a difficulty override is not going to address the bigger issues there.

Orbital78 · June 14

Challenge difficulty should be a personal choice, and only changed by each person. It is simply not worth it to most people. I felt it should be an instanced thing, but that is not the route they went. So you will have to deal with difficulty being curbed by randoms.

SilverBride · June 14

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

Sure, that would work. But OP's suggestion is more efficient, especially for the purpose they're suggesting it (overland guild events.)
It's much easier for one person to set the difficulty for the entire group, than it is for one person to check, make sure and guide 11 other players to have the correct difficulty set.

The group leader can announce a difficulty setting they want the members to use, and can kick players that don't comply, but no player should ever be given control over another player's settings.

spartaxoxo · June 14

Gabriel_H wrote: »

There is no change in the complexity in overland between Adventurer and Vestige. As someone who spends time training newbies in dungeons and trials, I have to say that using overland as a training ground for that is not going to help them.

Untrue. Many of the enemies have mechs you never even see or saw but didn't have to care about on Adventurer that are something you have to learn on Vestige.

One of the reasons I've enjoyed Vestige is because I'm actually having to pay attention to mechanics, and I actually have to roll dodge, block, heal, and break free.

spartaxoxo · June 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

In this case, then the group lead can just ask the group members to be on a specific difficulty though. It's possible for groups to all choose that, and then it's not mandated from someone else.

This suggestion removes the agency of the players.

How does it do that? The first option suggested by the OP is that they can set the group to no requirements. If they set it at none then they everyone in the group keeps their settings.

How is this suggestion any different to the "enforce role requirements" checkbox in group finder? How does a group leader having an option to enforce requirement, that's defaulted to off, unfairly remove agency from group members? Because they can't join a group they knew they don't meet the requirements of and accidently or purposefully disrupt?

tomofhyrule · June 14

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

There is no change in the complexity in overland between Adventurer and Vestige. As someone who spends time training newbies in dungeons and trials, I have to say that using overland as a training ground for that is not going to help them.

Untrue. Many of the enemies have mechs you never even see or saw but didn't have to care about on Adventurer that are something you have to learn on Vestige.

One of the reasons I've enjoyed Vestige is because I'm actually having to pay attention to mechanics, and I actually have to roll dodge, block, heal, and break free.

The point they're making is that those mechanics always existed regardless of difficulty, we just never needed to respect them.

The big difference between mechanics in overland versus mechanics in group stuff is that there are some mechanics that simply don't exist in lower difficulty modes.

Consider: regardless of difficulty, the adds with daggers will back up and have a channeled dagger throw. But Bahsei's entire portal thing doesn't happen outside of HM.

spartaxoxo · June 14

tomofhyrule wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

There is no change in the complexity in overland between Adventurer and Vestige. As someone who spends time training newbies in dungeons and trials, I have to say that using overland as a training ground for that is not going to help them.

Untrue. Many of the enemies have mechs you never even see or saw but didn't have to care about on Adventurer that are something you have to learn on Vestige.

One of the reasons I've enjoyed Vestige is because I'm actually having to pay attention to mechanics, and I actually have to roll dodge, block, heal, and break free.

The point they're making is that those mechanics always existed regardless of difficulty, we just never needed to respect them.

The big difference between mechanics in overland versus mechanics in group stuff is that there are some mechanics that simply don't exist in lower difficulty modes.

Consider: regardless of difficulty, the adds with daggers will back up and have a channeled dagger throw. But Bahsei's entire portal thing doesn't happen outside of HM.

If there is no realistic way for me to see those mechanics, it doesn't actually matter that they exist. For all actual intents and purposes, they don't. I get that they were on a completely invisible queue ignores but saying it doesn't add complexity ignores how it actually works in practice to the point it's practically misinformation.

Anyone going into vestige thinking the only difference is they are damage sponges is going to have a bad time. Vestige is a lot more complex because there are attacks that take a while to be launched that people did not see and ones that they saw but their brain filtered it out because it was not important. And now, you can wipe if you're not handling them.

DestroyerPewnack · June 14

virtus753 wrote: »

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Overland difficulty is an optional system. Forcing it on others is not optional.

Joining a group is an optional system, though. If your group leader queues for a veteran dungeon, you don't get to play with that group on normal difficulty. What's the issue here?

These are not analogous.

An instance’s difficulty is a setting that applies to the instance. It changes the mobs and mechanics in the instance rather than the player characters. The group lead is thus controlling the environment, not the players within it. When the latter was attempted, it took a matter of days for ZOS to shut it down.

Personal difficulty settings for overland are the opposite. They change the player character, not the world around it. Each person has the ability to control that setting for themselves at all times as part of retaining control over their character. If the group wants everyone to choose the same thing together, they are all more than capable of selecting the appropriate setting without someone doing it for them. Friendly reminders here would go a long way towards supporting personal agency, responsibility, and interpersonal relations. If a person needs to have their difficulty settings controlled because they refuse to set it appropriately for the group after a reminder, a difficulty override is not going to address the bigger issues there.

They are absolutely and without exception analogous.

From the player's perspective, whether you make enemies stronger or make the player weaker, the end result is the same: the player takes more damage and deals less damage. It's a distinction without a difference.

Personal difficulty is preserved when you're playing solo, or when you're playing in a group with OP's default setting suggestion, (no override.)

What OP and the rest of us are talking about here is not taking away your personal freedom, but giving guild event leads a tool to make hosting overland guild events seamless. You still have all the freedom in the world to choose whether or not to join a group.

valenwood_vegan · June 14

So now people joining a random alik'r dolmen group, or randomly grouping up while waiting for a world boss or an encounter to start, or responding to requests for help in zone chat would have to worry about what difficulty the group leader is going to force them onto? Doesn't sound appealing to me - I would no longer join such groups if they could alter my settings; and it would be confusing at best for newer players who are unaware. If an organized group wants everyone on the same difficulty level, they can organize that.

EDIT: I want to be fair so sure I could see it as maybe a group finder thing, where the information can be more clearly communicated up front before people join. But to me it overall seems like more trouble than it's worth.

SilverBride · June 14

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

What OP and the rest of us are talking about here is not taking away your personal freedom, but giving guild event leads a tool to make hosting overland guild events seamless. You still have all the freedom in the world to choose whether or not to join a group.

The only way that would work is if the group leader was able to change the players' settings, and that is a big NO.